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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 28, 2015 17:15:07 GMT -5
The workers must learn to say, " I don't know or have the answer." Don't make people look stupid for asking questions. Always try to be honest. Don't say you must submit to our authority because we are workers. Workers have made mistakes and we don't want to follow them when they go into the ditch. Yes!!!! You go Nathan! And everything that I am, and all my best wishes go with you!
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 28, 2015 17:21:20 GMT -5
Now, I've never really given this a lot of thought. But, you know, I think it might be rather therapeutic if I did - even if I don't feel I have too many unresolved issues. Off the top of my head, here are some examples: "You can't be yourself; you have to be like us." "If a worker says it, then it has to be more important than if someone further down the hierarchy says it." “No matter what you are thinking/feeling, you cannot express it if it is not politically correct. Furthermore, you probably shouldn’t even be thinking/feeling THAT.” Or: 'the fact that you are even asking that question indicates there's a problem.' Yes! I think it would be such an interesting thread for people to express what they perceived as the "unwritten rules". (So little time. So many interesting things to consider. And I am so selfish with my own interests!)
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Post by snow on Jan 28, 2015 20:39:55 GMT -5
An unwritten rule is that you must take part in meetings if you are professing, even if you have nothing to say. You must attend all meetings even if you are sick or people will judge you as being _________ fill in the blank. There are many things I am sure, like you stated Sharon. Might be an interesting topic to look at.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 22:53:15 GMT -5
why didn't you post list of rules like i asked? And what do the posted rules have to do with a report of an even older case of CSA? are cause the thread is Harold Bennett, Oregon convention
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 22:54:18 GMT -5
Virgo, I don't know how to copy from this saved document and paste it on TMB. If I did, I would do it. Maybe someone else here can do that. thank you
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 22:58:39 GMT -5
When no rules are written down.... Some people complaints.
When rules (Harold's guidelines, and Eldon's church elders meetings) are written down... people still complaints. You can't win! People will find ways to complaints no matter what. Can't please everyone. Smiling. All that God did for the children of Isreal they still complained'/murmured; and they had the commandments written down on the tablets too, oh boy! Didn't Moses have a hard time with them. the good old human nature rears it's head all the time
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 23:16:43 GMT -5
Can you give us some examples? Now, I've never really given this a lot of thought. But, you know, I think it might be rather therapeutic if I did - even if I don't feel I have too many unresolved issues. Off the top of my head, here are some examples: "You can't be yourself; you have to be like us." "If a worker says it, then it has to be more important than if someone further down the hierarchy says it." “No matter what you are thinking/feeling, you cannot express it if it is not politically correct. Furthermore, you probably shouldn’t even be thinking/feeling THAT.” i wonder what you mean by we can't be ourselves? is that meaning we retain all that we are without any outside influence? does that mean we can't have the Christ life within which takes the place of ourselves I wonder what you mean we have to be like us? does that mean we all have to be like one? the wish of Jesus that they all be one in mind and spirit if they were all one in mind and spirit there would be nothing different in who says it with what you say last i have found the opposite
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 7:19:20 GMT -5
Now, I've never really given this a lot of thought. But, you know, I think it might be rather therapeutic if I did - even if I don't feel I have too many unresolved issues. Off the top of my head, here are some examples: "You can't be yourself; you have to be like us." ~~ Paul wrote "Be ye follower of me, as I am follower of Christ." If Paul or any worker didn't follow Jesus teachings then we shouldn't follow him/them into the ditch.
"If a worker says it, then it has to be more important than if someone further down the hierarchy says it." “No matter what you are thinking/feeling, you cannot express it if it is not politically correct. Furthermore, you probably shouldn’t even be thinking/feeling THAT.” ~~ Some overseers and workers are monitoring the TMB... they listened... and investigated into Ira H. sexual misconduct from his past and was demoted, asked to leave the ministry. They didn't allow another overseer to continue in the work, because a sister worker testified of his sexual relationship with him. It would be good for the workers, and the friends to make the changes when there are legit problems need to be fixed such as CSA. The workers must report and cooperate with the authority. Don't try to handle CSA cases because the workers are NOT professional capable of dealing/solving it. The workers must learn to say, " I don't know or have the answer." Don't make people look stupid for asking questions. Always try to be honest. Don't say you must submit to our authority because we are workers. Workers have made mistakes and we don't want to follow them when they go into the ditch. It would be good, but it is not that easy,foolish pride and saving face is the barrier that stops them from doing the correct things in such cases. Adverse publicity is fearful and can be regarded as damaging to the fellowship, but the focus should be on prevention of abuse and acting in the Interest of the abused and the abusers, IMO. When Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved Him, three times Peter answered in the affirmative and Jesus's reply was: feed my sheep, feed my sheep, and feed my sheep and feed my lambs; not once did he say feed and abuse them. Shepherds are therefore expected to feed the sheep and the lambs without abusing them in any shape or form. I believe that is what God expects and That is my honest opinion/conviction and I will not be swayed from it, come what may. I hope mine is not a voice in the wilderness crying out in vain.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 29, 2015 8:54:47 GMT -5
Can you give us some examples? How about... 1. ____"WHAT have you been reading!!" 2. ____"If you had the right spirit, you wouldn't even question that." 3. ____"It's like a seed that has been dormant..." 4. ____"Why, you ought to be ashamed for even asking that question -- after all Jesus has done for you!" 5. ____"Some things you just have to accept on faith." 6. ____"Your asking that question tells me that you have a much deeper problem...perhaps you never really had a good understanding." 7. ____"As the hymn says: 'We follow, with a faith that questions not.' " 8. ____"Well, I remember what Willie Jamieson/George Walker, etc. used to say about that..." 9. ____"You've been in this fellowship X years, and you don't know the answer to THAT question?" 10. ____"Our old friends and workers lived and died in it; that's good enough for me." 11. ____"There is nothing to discuss. Truth is Truth. It is just a matter of your not X (being willing, having enough faith, being rebellious, being vain, etc.)." 12. ____"It's a dangerous thing to question the workers -- Why, that's the same as questioning God!!" 13. ____"I know this is God's true way because, it feels right to me." 14. ____"Well, the way is perfect -- it's just the people that aren't perfect." 15. ____"After my parents professed, I never once saw my mother __X _ again." 16. ____"It sounds to me like you're doubting. Be careful! Some in Revelations could not enter in because of unbelief!" 17. ____"The history isn't really important. The important thing is when the gospel came to you, and began a work in YOUR life. Tell me, when was that?" 18. ____"You can tell a goat because he is always 'butting.' " 19. ____"Who have you been talking to?!! Sounds to me like you've been listening to some who have read "those books full of lies" who are "tearing down the truth!" 20. ____"I sure wouldn't want to be in your place on the judgment day!"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 14:42:49 GMT -5
Sometimes people come to the workers with questions in a fighting, arguing spirits **** Sometimes this is a reaction to being ignored, shunned, smeared etc. When you push a dog in the corner, he may come out fighting. There is a communication problem in this fellowship when you try to talk to someone and they feel you are "out of your place".
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2015 18:53:35 GMT -5
~~ Some overseers and workers are monitoring the TMB... they listened... and investigated into Ira H. sexual misconduct from his past and was demoted, asked to leave the ministry. They didn't allow another overseer to continue in the work, because a sister worker testified of his sexual relationship with him.
It would be good for the workers, and the friends to make the changes when there are legit problems need to be fixed such as CSA. The workers must report and cooperate with the authority. Don't try to handle CSA cases because the workers are NOT professional capable of dealing/solving it. ****** Amen. But pride gets in the way.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 30, 2015 21:13:48 GMT -5
It wasnt because the workers were watching TMB that Ira Hobbs was removed...it was largely due to WINGS efforts.
And it took nearly 2 years for anything to be done.
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Post by rational on Jan 31, 2015 7:12:44 GMT -5
It wasnt because the workers were watching TMB that Ira Hobbs was removed...it was largely due to WINGS efforts. And it took nearly 2 years for anything to be done. It all began here on TMB, when a lady/Gene? began to tell her story about Ira H. had sexually abused her and hardly anyone believed her including myself. The friends, the workers who read here began to alert the overseers about it and they confronted Ira with Gene's story. Eventually, Ira admitted it happened, lost his position as overseer and left the ministry also.JEAN
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 31, 2015 9:12:36 GMT -5
It wasnt because the workers were watching TMB that Ira Hobbs was removed...it was largely due to WINGS efforts. And it took nearly 2 years for anything to be done. It all began here on TMB, when a lady/Gene? began to tell her story about Ira H. had sexually abused her and hardly anyone believed her including myself. The friends, the workers who read here began to alert the overseers about it and they confronted Ira with Gene's story. Eventually, Ira admitted it happened, lost his position as overseer and left the ministry also.Part of the above is true. The rest is mostly Nate's assumptions. He doesnt know what went on behind the scenes... He doesnt have a clue all the work WINGS did on Jean's behalf. TMB removed Jean's letter from TMB due to Jesse Lackman getting the whole board shut down by ProBoards. If WINGS hadn't taken up Jean's cause, Ira would probably still be Overseer of Texas... Yes, to their credit, there were also concerned friends involved. Nate has no proof that "eventually Ira admitted it." Click Here to read jean's story.
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Post by stargazer on Jan 31, 2015 11:10:02 GMT -5
Perhaps off topic at this point in the thread, but I can't help but comment on how stark it is when the sound of a child is absent - and we're to be childlike??
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Post by rational on Jan 31, 2015 15:32:33 GMT -5
[quote author=" CherieKropp" source="/post/625782/thread" timestamp="1422713556" Nate has no proof that "eventually Ira admitted it." [/quote] The letter written by Ira Hobbs to Jean dated October 18, 2006 appears to be an admission of guilt. Jean seemed to think the letter was a confession. There is the letter from the offender and a statement from the victim that the letter was a confession. How much more proof would NathanB need?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2015 19:23:46 GMT -5
Was he sorry for what he had done or sorry that he got caught. There is a difference.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 3, 2015 23:48:21 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Feb 4, 2015 1:27:58 GMT -5
IMO, IH letter was a pitiful excuse for an apology...and Jean sure took it that way. In writing, she considered it a confession. Remember this was in response to your comment: Nate has no proof that "eventually Ira admitted it." While IH's letter may not have met the 5 items that that you referenced as an apology, Jean did refer to it as a confession. How does that translate in any way to IH not admitting the error of is ways? Whether it met your definition of an apology or not was not the issue.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 14:02:02 GMT -5
TMB did play a hand in bringing up the issue of CSA in the "Kingdom". I feel that TMB had an indirect influence on Mr. Hobbs leaving the work. And the brother worker vs. a sister worker episode that hasn't been resolved yet. And the failure to report charges against Bill Denk and Jerome Frandle as well. Had it not been for TMB, I wonder if the folks in Michigan would have had the courage and support to bring charges against Mr. Mousseau and Briggs. And I believe that the problems in Victoria-Tasmania may lead to a change in climate where evil behavior will be brought to justice immediately. But there is still a resistance to go against the overseer leadership in the meetings which is troublesome.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2015 19:56:46 GMT -5
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Post by Gene on Feb 6, 2015 21:14:40 GMT -5
Thanks for posting that link, Walker -- I think that's the first time I've seen this list of rules which Bert says do not exist.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 12:12:07 GMT -5
There is so much emphasis on the quietness of the grounds which is fine to a point. But how about discussing how to handle inappropriate behavior? How about "I hate to think that his would happen among God's People but the law will be notified if indecent behavior occurs on the grounds".
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Post by rational on Feb 7, 2015 12:23:19 GMT -5
There is so much emphasis on the quietness of the grounds which is fine to a point. But how about discussing how to handle inappropriate behavior? How about "I hate to think that his would happen among God's People but the law will be notified if indecent behavior occurs on the grounds". How about: "I hate to think that his would happen among God's People but the law will be notified if illegal indecent behavior occurs on the grounds". The law is concerned with legal issues. You need a different phrase to deal with the non-illegal behavior you are trying to suppress.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 7, 2015 12:38:18 GMT -5
Anyone remember when the 10 min quiet before meetings was first instigated?
It wasnt always so........
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 13:21:25 GMT -5
Cherie, I clearly remember visiting was allowed until a worker knocked on a bench about five minutes before meeting time. When I returned from military service, or during that time, the policy had changed and the congregation was expected to silence themselves and earlier than that. My recollection is that it occurred circa 1963 in the Pacific Northwest of USA.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 19:44:35 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Feb 8, 2015 13:32:13 GMT -5
"Quaker Meeting Has Begun.... Quaker meeting has begun. No more laughing, no more fun. If you show your teeth or tongue, you must pay a forfeit.
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