|
Post by snow on Feb 26, 2015 19:16:34 GMT -5
Snow, I just know he's there, I don't know why he's showed me because I'm nothing. But he has! And I don't know why he doesn't show others, I'm not God! But i hope and pray he does one day. Snow I dont see it as judgemental when a believer is quoting scripture. I think it is judgemental if someone says you need Jesus. I havent seen anyone say that. Knowone knows anyone elses heart cry other than their own. Sincerity is human character trait not isolated only to believers. Maryhig I feel like you do that he is there, hears my prayer, most of the time answers. Its a relationship that has been built on trust over decades. The friendship we have with an invisible spirit which is and can be as real as a friendship with a human being. There are scriptures that say "it is the father who calls and the Holy Spirit who convicts". Bubbles no scripture was quoted. Here is the paragraph I was responding to: "No one can prove to you he's there, only him. And if you don't ask with a sincere heart you'll never see him! You have to believe what you decide to believe in. You have free will." Basically the way I see that is someone saying others just aren't sincere enough in their search. I think most people who have left the church and are now either agnostic or atheist, had a pretty traumatic journey and when others say things like this it negates others. You just didn't try hard enough.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 26, 2015 20:54:36 GMT -5
Snow I dont see it as judgemental when a believer is quoting scripture. I think it is judgemental if someone says you need Jesus. I havent seen anyone say that. Knowone knows anyone elses heart cry other than their own. Sincerity is human character trait not isolated only to believers. Maryhig I feel like you do that he is there, hears my prayer, most of the time answers. Its a relationship that has been built on trust over decades. The friendship we have with an invisible spirit which is and can be as real as a friendship with a human being. There are scriptures that say "it is the father who calls and the Holy Spirit who convicts". Bubbles no scripture was quoted. Here is the paragraph I was responding to: "No one can prove to you he's there, only him. And if you don't ask with a sincere heart you'll never see him! You have to believe what you decide to believe in. You have free will."
Basically the way I see that is someone saying others just aren't sincere enough in their search. I think most people who have left the church and are now either agnostic or atheist, had a pretty traumatic journey and when others say things like this it negates others. You just didn't try hard enough. Snow, I feel the same way.
It's as if we aren't sincere enough to seek the truth & that since we have free will, it is our own fault.
It is also a kind of underhanded boast about their own sincerity.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 26, 2015 21:32:34 GMT -5
Truth be told, we are all judgmental in many ways, we base our judgments on our understanding and perceptions and personal experiences of the world and what goes on in the world. Yes its true . Christians can be just aweful which comes across as a pious self righteous attitude. That doesnt negate the judgements and criticisms and from all other people.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 26, 2015 21:38:36 GMT -5
Snow I dont see it as judgemental when a believer is quoting scripture. I think it is judgemental if someone says you need Jesus. I havent seen anyone say that. Knowone knows anyone elses heart cry other than their own. Sincerity is human character trait not isolated only to believers. Maryhig I feel like you do that he is there, hears my prayer, most of the time answers. Its a relationship that has been built on trust over decades. The friendship we have with an invisible spirit which is and can be as real as a friendship with a human being. There are scriptures that say "it is the father who calls and the Holy Spirit who convicts". Bubbles no scripture was quoted. Here is the paragraph I was responding to: "No one can prove to you he's there, only him. And if you don't ask with a sincere heart you'll never see him! You have to believe what you decide to believe in. You have free will." Basically the way I see that is someone saying others just aren't sincere enough in their search. I think most people who have left the church and are now either agnostic or atheist, had a pretty traumatic journey and when others say things like this it negates others. You just didn't try hard enough. Snow There was a reference or inference of scripture and that is what I recognised. Heb 10:22 "Let us draw near to God with sincere heart..." When you have been a christian a long time it becomes part of your language. Ive been pulled up many times over the yrs not giving scripture reference for what im talkiing about.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 26, 2015 22:48:21 GMT -5
Ratz Your comment is harsh saying she is being judgemental. Marys heart is soft. Cant you see that? I don't know anything about the poster except the text to which I was responding. I thought, among others, that the comment was judgmental. I was a comment regarding a post. I trust she did not take it personally.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 27, 2015 6:18:54 GMT -5
Ratz Your comment is harsh saying she is being judgemental. Marys heart is soft. Cant you see that? I don't know anything about the poster except the text to which I was responding. I thought, among others, that the comment was judgmental. I was a comment regarding a post. I trust she did not take it personally. Keep getting bumped. I have no idea if maryhig took it personally. I know I would have. How could you not. We are human beings.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 8:32:16 GMT -5
For some reason the poem of the charge of the flight brigade comes to mind: ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die; or something like that. I wonder why that springs to mind at this time? Just coincidence I suppose.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Feb 27, 2015 12:52:14 GMT -5
For some reason the poem of the charge of the flight brigade comes to mind: ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die; or something like that. I wonder why that springs to mind at this time? Just coincidence I suppose. But we must question why. Otherwise we just mindlessly keep making the same mistakes over and over. It's important to question or we can't change the things that need changing. Reason is a friend of growth and understanding. Without questioning why we would still be living by the rules in the OT, and some still are. We now know that we don't want to do what was considered 'right' in the OT. It we had never questioned we would still be stuck in a mentality that says it's ok to rape a young woman as long as you pay her father for her and don't ever divorce her.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 27, 2015 13:51:14 GMT -5
For some reason the poem of the charge of the flight brigade comes to mind: ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die; or something like that. I wonder why that springs to mind at this time? Just coincidence I suppose. Perhaps because I posted a partial quote of Tennyson a few days ago??
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 27, 2015 17:41:48 GMT -5
For some reason the poem of the charge of the flight brigade comes to mind: ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die; or something like that. I wonder why that springs to mind at this time? Just coincidence I suppose. It is the the "light" brigade.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 27, 2015 17:58:31 GMT -5
I don't know anything about the poster except the text to which I was responding. I thought, among others, that the comment was judgmental. I was a comment regarding a post. I trust she did not take it personally. Keep getting bumped. I have no idea if maryhig took it personally. I know I would have. How could you not. We are human beings. Bubbles no scripture was quoted. Here is the paragraph I was responding to: "No one can prove to you he's there, only him. And if you don't ask with a sincere heart you'll never see him! You have to believe what you decide to believe in. You have free will." Basically the way I see that is someone saying others just aren't sincere enough in their search. I think most people who have left the church and are now either agnostic or atheist, had a pretty traumatic journey and when others say things like this it negates others. You just didn't try hard enough. Snow There was a reference or inference of scripture and that is what I recognised. Heb 10:22 "Let us draw near to God with sincere heart..." When you have been a christian a long time it becomes part of your language. Ive been pulled up many times over the yrs not giving scripture reference for what im talkiing about. It really doesn't make a difference whether one has scripture reference or not, the remark is still judgmental.In fact, it is down right offensive! maryhig said:
FAO DMG:-
"See here's the thing, you don't see because you don't believe so your eyes are blind and your ears don't hear, you don't believe because you choose not to. So you won't have any evidence because your heart is closed.
I choose to believe and have had plenty of evidence because God has opened my heart! "
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Feb 27, 2015 18:11:29 GMT -5
Keep getting bumped. I have no idea if maryhig took it personally. I know I would have. How could you not. We are human beings. Snow There was a reference or inference of scripture and that is what I recognised. Heb 10:22 "Let us draw near to God with sincere heart..." When you have been a christian a long time it becomes part of your language. Ive been pulled up many times over the yrs not giving scripture reference for what im talkiing about. It really doesn't make a difference whether one has scripture reference or not, the remark is still judgmental.In fact, it is down right offensive! maryhig said:
FAO DMG:-
"See here's the thing, you don't see because you don't believe so your eyes are blind and your ears don't hear, you don't believe because you choose not to. So you won't have any evidence because your heart is closed.
I choose to believe and have had plenty of evidence because God has opened my heart! "
I don't say God doesn't exist! You can't be much more closed than that!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 18:27:59 GMT -5
For some reason the poem of the charge of the flight brigade comes to mind: ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die; or something like that. I wonder why that springs to mind at this time? Just coincidence I suppose. It is the the "light" brigade.Absolutely, but this keyboard on my iPad keeps changing to flight so I gave up. This happens quite a lot these days, it has a mind of its own.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 27, 2015 18:37:07 GMT -5
It is the the "light" brigade. Absolutely, but this keyboard on my iPad keeps changing to flight so I gave up. This happens quite a lot these days, it has a mind of its own. I understand, at first I thought you were perhaps making a play on words. But due to the horror of the incident, I really didn't think that you would do that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2015 18:47:23 GMT -5
Absolutely, but this keyboard on my iPad keeps changing to flight so I gave up. This happens quite a lot these days, it has a mind of its own. I understand, at first I thought you were perhaps making a play on words. But due to the horror of the incident, I really didn't think that you would do that.
Pun my soul I didn't.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Feb 28, 2015 2:47:12 GMT -5
I don't say God doesn't exist! You can't be much more closed than that! This can be read in at least two ways. That you do not say there is no god and in so doing cannot be more closed or that you do not say there is no god but people who do say it are very closed. I am not sure which would be considered more closed. The theist believes there is a single entity that controls the universe, which, of course, means control of the people in that universe, and stipulates the actions that are and are not acceptable to win his/her approval in order to be given the gift of worshiping that entity for all of eternity. That seems like a pretty tightly closed loop. The atheist (speaking for myself) does not stipulate that there is only a single entity that controls the universe, acknowledges that the events that unfold are governed by many natural laws, and does not stipulate to others, on pain of eternal damnation, a right and/or wrong way to live their lives. Somehow seems more open. Looking at the larger picture - there are many, many gods that people worship, perhaps thousands. Can you explain why you rejected all but one? Do you think you would have selected the same god had you been born and raised in Morocco? Or rural Japan?
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Feb 28, 2015 4:43:08 GMT -5
I don't say God doesn't exist! You can't be much more closed than that! This can be read in at least two ways. That you do not say there is no god and in so doing cannot be more closed or that you do not say there is no god but people who do say it are very closed. I am not sure which would be considered more closed. The theist believes there is a single entity that controls the universe, which, of course, means control of the people in that universe, and stipulates the actions that are and are not acceptable to win his/her approval in order to be given the gift of worshiping that entity for all of eternity. That seems like a pretty tightly closed loop. The atheist (speaking for myself) does not stipulate that there is only a single entity that controls the universe, acknowledges that the events that unfold are governed by many natural laws, and does not stipulate to others, on pain of eternal damnation, a right and/or wrong way to live their lives. Somehow seems more open. Looking at the larger picture - there are many, many gods that people worship, perhaps thousands. Can you explain why you rejected all but one? Do you think you would have selected the same god had you been born and raised in Morocco? Or rural Japan? Blimey you would analyze hello if I said it! I thought it was a pretty clear answer, DMG said I was judgemental, and copied what I wrote. But how is it judgemental when I was talking about God and she herself says there's nothing there, that there is no God? You can't get much more closed than that toward God, can you! So what I wrote is true, she has closed her heart to God, she says it herself she doesn't believe! And that's up to her if she chooses to believe this way! I think we can worship God anywhere! I've always said God looks at the heart, I know he's there because he's showed me, and I'm sure he's showed many people around the world that he's there. We're all from different countries on here, and yet I know he has made himself known and helped people on this site. I'm not the only one! I have always believed and had faith and went through some very traumatic experiences over a long periods of time without seeing anything. But i know he strengthened me. And I never stopped having faith in him. Rational I don't know anybody's else's heart, and i'm no better than anyone either. I don't know why God makes the choices he does. I'm not God. But i do know it says in the Bible "if you have the faith of a grain of mustard seed, you can move mountains" I have faith in God.
|
|
|
Post by bubbles on Feb 28, 2015 5:25:10 GMT -5
Maryhig If you have faith..expect to be interrogated about any comments relating to faith.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 28, 2015 6:04:10 GMT -5
Blimey you would analyze hello if I said it! I thought it was a pretty clear answer, DMG said I was judgemental, and copied what I wrote. But how is it judgemental when I was talking about God and she herself says there's nothing there, that there is no God? You can't get much more closed than that toward God, can you! So what I wrote is true, she has closed her heart to God, she says it herself she doesn't believe! And that's up to her if she chooses to believe this way! I think we can worship God anywhere! I've always said God looks at the heart, I know he's there because he's showed me, and I'm sure he's showed many people around the world that he's there. We're all from different countries on here, and yet I know he has made himself known and helped people on this site. I'm not the only one! I have always believed and had faith and went through some very traumatic experiences over a long periods of time without seeing anything. But i know he strengthened me. And I never stopped having faith in him. Rational I don't know anybody's else's heart, and i'm no better than anyone either. I don't know why God makes the choices he does. I'm not God. But i do know it says in the Bible "if you have the faith of a grain of mustard seed, you can move mountains" I have faith in God. You tell rational that "you don't know anybody's else's heart."
Yet, That was a very positive statement you wrote about me & my "heart"
"So what I wrote is true, she has closed her heart to God,"
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Feb 28, 2015 6:09:29 GMT -5
Blimey you would analyze hello if I said it! I thought it was a pretty clear answer, DMG said I was judgemental, and copied what I wrote. But how is it judgemental when I was talking about God and she herself says there's nothing there, that there is no God? You can't get much more closed than that toward God, can you! So what I wrote is true, she has closed her heart to God, she says it herself she doesn't believe! And that's up to her if she chooses to believe this way! I think we can worship God anywhere! I've always said God looks at the heart, I know he's there because he's showed me, and I'm sure he's showed many people around the world that he's there. We're all from different countries on here, and yet I know he has made himself known and helped people on this site. I'm not the only one! I have always believed and had faith and went through some very traumatic experiences over a long periods of time without seeing anything. But i know he strengthened me. And I never stopped having faith in him. Rational I don't know anybody's else's heart, and i'm no better than anyone either. I don't know why God makes the choices he does. I'm not God. But i do know it says in the Bible "if you have the faith of a grain of mustard seed, you can move mountains" I have faith in God. You tell rational that "you don't know anybody's else's heart."
Yet, That was a very positive statement you wrote about me & my "heart"
"So what I wrote is true, she has closed her heart to God,"
I said that comment because you say you don't believe, how is that being open to god? If you don't believe, then you don't believe he's there? If there's no God how are you open to him? So you have closed your heart, just like I would have if I didn't believe!
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 28, 2015 6:36:24 GMT -5
You tell rational that "you don't know anybody's else's heart."
Yet, That was a very positive statement you wrote about me & my "heart"
"So what I wrote is true, she has closed her heart to God,"
I said that comment because you say you don't believe, how is that being open to god? If you don't believe, then you don't believe he's there? If there's no God how are you open to him? So you have closed your heart, just like I would have if I didn't believe!
OK. If you insist. This is what you said about me:
"you don't see because you don't believe so your eyes are blind and your ears don't hear, you don't believe because you choose not to. So you won't have any evidence because your heart is closed. I choose to believe and have had plenty of evidence because God has opened my heart! "
Then I'm sure you wouldn't think that I'm being judgmental if I were to make this statement about you.
Maryhig says, "I have always believed and had faith and went through some very traumatic experiences over a long periods of time without seeing anything. But i know he strengthened me. And I never stopped having faith in him., Suppose I say to you, Maryhig, -"you don't face reality because , your eyes are blind and your ears don't hear, you don't face reality because you choose not to."
So you won't see the evidence of reality because your mind is closed."
Fair enough?
|
|
stevo
New Member
Posts: 34
|
Post by stevo on Feb 28, 2015 6:36:24 GMT -5
Hi I'm new to this site and just discovering how to get round I believe there is only one true god (although there are many in this world) and that's the god of love. If I was to say why does god allow suffering most of the time it is brought on by ourselves by eating, drinking, smoking taking drugs polluting the world with chemicals in the air that god gave us fresh. So my point is if you had a son or a daughter, wife,husband,partner or a friend that you really love and you knew that they were doing something that would hurt them or was going to lead them down a bad path you would have to tell them. If they believe you then they would listen to you but if they didn't listen then the chances are they would go and do it anyway, in which they would probably come to a bad end. That's what god does with us he let's us fall to see what we do next if we don't listen to what he say's. In the bible everyone apart from Jesus fell in one way or another but it was the ones that learnt from this or believe all that god said to them found peace in there hearts even though it wasn't easy because you have to fight against this world as the devil has a hold on us until we let god in our hearts and that's the god of love.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Feb 28, 2015 6:44:53 GMT -5
I said that comment because you say you don't believe, how is that being open to god? If you don't believe, then you don't believe he's there? If there's no God how are you open to him? So you have closed your heart, just like I would have if I didn't believe!
OK. If you insist. Then I'm sure you wouldn't think that I'm being judgmental if I were to make this statement about you.
Maryhig says, "I have always believed and had faith and went through some very traumatic experiences over a long periods of time without seeing anything. But i know he strengthened me. And I never stopped having faith in him., Suppose I say about you, Maryhig, -you don't face reality because , "your eyes are blind and your ears don't hear, you don't face reality because you choose not to."
So you won't see the evidence of reality because your mind is closed.
Fair enough?
That's fine, say what you like! It doesn't bother me. Because you don't know me! But I know there's more than just the life in this world! I know reality because my eyes are wide open! And the reality is God is there!
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Feb 28, 2015 6:47:25 GMT -5
Matt 13:15
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Feb 28, 2015 6:55:27 GMT -5
OK. If you insist. Then I'm sure you wouldn't think that I'm being judgmental if I were to make this statement about you.
Maryhig says, "I have always believed and had faith and went through some very traumatic experiences over a long periods of time without seeing anything. But i know he strengthened me. And I never stopped having faith in him., Suppose I say about you, Maryhig, -you don't face reality because , "your eyes are blind and your ears don't hear, you don't face reality because you choose not to."
So you won't see the evidence of reality because your mind is closed.
Fair enough?
That's fine, say what you like! It doesn't bother me. Because you don't know me! you don't know me! But I know there's more than just the life in this world! I know reality because my eyes are wide open! And the reality is God is there! That is exactly what I told you also, -that you don't know me!
Doesn't feel so good when the shoe is on the other foot, does is it!
Good night.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Feb 28, 2015 7:10:20 GMT -5
That's fine, say what you like! It doesn't bother me. Because you don't know me! you don't know me! But I know there's more than just the life in this world! I know reality because my eyes are wide open! And the reality is God is there! That is exactly what I told you also, -that you don't know me!
Doesn't feel so good when the shoe is on the other foot, does is it!
Good night.
I think you've got me wrong. it hasn't bothered me what you've said. Good night, although it's good afternoon here :-)
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Mar 1, 2015 2:11:25 GMT -5
That is exactly what I told you also, -that you don't know me!
Doesn't feel so good when the shoe is on the other foot, does is it!
Good night.
I think you've got me wrong. it hasn't bothered me what you've said. Good night, although it's good afternoon here :-)
It wasn't meant to "bother" you, maryhig.
It was just meant to show you how someone might feel when they told by you, "you don't see because you don't believe, so your eyes are blind, and your ears don't hear, you don't believe because you choose not to."
So you won't have any evidence because your heart is closed."
Good night again.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Mar 1, 2015 9:55:54 GMT -5
Blimey you would analyze hello if I said it! Probably not. If you qualify is as her/my belief in your god then there is not a lot of room, no. But I did not see that qualifition in the original post. I could have possibly missed the implication. She (and I) have not closed out hearts to god any more than than I could say that you had closed your heart to some mythical being that I might make up. An atheist are not closed their heart (whatever that might mean) but they do not believe there is an entity to which one could ":close their heart". You can and I am glad that brings you comfort.And I accept that you believe this. The problems arise when you are asked to present some verifiable evidence. It never happens.No, you are not the only one with that belief and you are not the only one that cannot provide verifiable evidence. OK. And I applaud your faith. Do you have an answer regarding which god you think you would believe in had you been born and raised in Turkey or India?
|
|