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Post by fixit on Jan 18, 2015 19:59:26 GMT -5
The point is that there ARE medical procedures that increase pain and suffering yet don't really improve the quality of life. Kidney dialysis is one of them. Finally the body rejects the procedure and kidneys can fail. Some of the problem is the desire to "extend life at any cost" mentality of the patient or their family. To blame it all on the creator and not put any blame on the medical institution isn't a fair assessment of the situation. Where were the nursing homes in the 1800s? Or into the early 1900s? Visit a geriatric center full of bed or wheel chair patients and tell me that extending life is really mercy. Lots of medicines out there create vegetables that really would have been better off to have just passed away. I don't believe in euthanasia but that is a different situation. It's a moral dilemma: Do you prescribe a course of antibiotics to cure pneumonia so the patient can endure a few more years with a low quality of life? Who decides?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 18, 2015 20:48:32 GMT -5
I have asked older people to tell me where the nursing homes where when they were young and most of them cannot do that. Death is as natural as birth. What I fear is months to years of being bedridden and/or wheelchair ridden wearing an adult diaper. I can tell you., we didn't have "nursing homes" even when I first became a nurse.
Patients went home to be cared for by their family.
Of course death is a natural as birth.
However, more women used to die in child birth than they do now . More children died as an infant(before their first birthday)than than they do now.
I understand your fear of "months to years of being bedridden and/or wheelchair ridden wearing an adult diaper."
I don't want that for myself either.
That is why you need a living will.
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Post by xna on Jan 18, 2015 22:52:01 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Jan 19, 2015 10:55:22 GMT -5
I have asked older people to tell me where the nursing homes where when they were young and most of them cannot do that. Do you think it is age related memory? Maybe they would have remembered names like Home for the Aged and Infirm or Boston's Home for Aged Women.Sure it is! That is probably the reason for the celebratory/carnival atmosphere at most funerals.My fear is also along the same line - being the caregiver for a bedridden and/or wheelchair ridden adult who will not wear a diaper!
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Post by rational on Jan 19, 2015 11:14:08 GMT -5
Where were the nursing homes in the 1800s? Or into the early 1900s? They were generally known as old age homes and were set up and run by organizations such as the German Benevolent Society, the Irish Benevolent Society, the Odd Fellows, the Masons, the Knights of Columbus, and the Hebrew Benevolent Society. Your lack of knowledge of these institutions does not mean they did not exist. How is withholding a medicine that will result in a person's death different from administering a medication that will result in a person's death? It sounds like you want to make decisions for other people based on your evaluation of the situation.
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Jan 28, 2015 10:33:46 GMT -5
An experience outside the norm of life experience ..a change, both physical and mental, instantaneous ...if there were nothing else in my life that lead me to believe, caused me to look outside myself and my own thoughts, this would be all I needed to stand where I stand . .except it hasn't . .I've experienced His hand over my life countless times since and seen the eveidence of it over and over .. .and I know this brief description won't have any changing of your own thoughts but like I've told you and others here previously ..if you are an honest person with an honest heart that desires to know the truth and wants to know if He's really there . ..ask Him ...it's really that simple .. . .if your honest .. I appreciate your response and a description of your beliefs but it does not provide the experiences themselves that can be considered by others to compare them to their own experiences. What one person might consider a miracle could be an event that is easily explained by another as a natural/normal experience. Odd that you think the reason people have not heard the voice of god is because they are not being honest. Have you considered the possibility that people who claim to hear the voice of god are the ones not being honest? People claiming paranormal events have never fared well when their claims have been carefully examined. Mr. Rational . ..like previous times I've brought this to you . ..my response was directed at you specifically ..and any others who may overhear in the wings .. but you in particular .. and you divert or decline acknowledgement .. .. if you, Mr. Rational, are of an honest heart, and do desire to know if God is real, YOU can.. .. He does not turn away from that heart . . you being as active here on this board as you are ..what is your purpose ..do you simply wish to correct all of us wayward Christians? ..what drives you to promote your belief system here? .. knowing this board is about a church and a group of people who are related to it in one fashion or another. .. .why are you here? .. ..off in the deep corner of your heart is that question ..and doubt . . ..if you want it answered . .ask Him . .seriously. .honestly . .ask. The "honest" part I'm speaking of is not asking in jest or derision in response to someone saying, "just ask" .. that deep, critical part of you that wonders .. and you prove that that is there. . . as dmmichi's statement says . .prove it . .. I'll ask you to prove me wrong . .. I'll challenge you to seriously ask Him to show Himself to you . .. ..
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Jan 28, 2015 10:39:11 GMT -5
..and don't worry . . .I won't let Dmmich call you brain damaged.. like she did to me. ..
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 28, 2015 16:35:08 GMT -5
..and don't worry . . .I won't let Dmmich call you brain damaged.. like she did to me. .. Ah, when did I call you "brain dead" Mr. DeRaad ?
Would you please post that quote where I said that?
I really don't like being accused of things that I never said!
So, I will be waiting for you to post such a statement.
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Jan 29, 2015 8:51:18 GMT -5
[/quote] Thank you for your concern (wish) but that "experience" won't happen again unless my brain becomes impaired & therefore my mind does also.
[/quote]
..well . . . I didn't say dead . .but I took this to be you saying all us Christian folk were addled in the brain . ..and it was also just another lame attempt at a little humor . .sorry to have offended ya . .
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Post by rational on Jan 29, 2015 10:44:35 GMT -5
I appreciate the beliefs you hold and will try to explain how your request appears from my side of the fence. You seemingly believe that if I would just listen and except as fact that there is indeed a paranormal being, such as the one you believe in, that I would be able to hear that 'still small voice'. Do you think if you were to listen and believe in the purple all knowing all powerful squirrel that lives in my attic that you would be able to hear his/her voice as s/he speaks to you? Would it help to convince you if I said that I converse with Mister Purple twice a day and when I ask for favors they are delivered without question, providing I am asking for appropriate things and within the accepted guidelines of what can and cannot be requested? So have you heard the high squeaky voice? Have you really listened? Have you listened while prostrating yourself on the ground with an acorn in your mouth? Are you being totally honest with yourself? If you want to hear the voice - . .ask him . .seriously. .honestly . .ask. I can not offer you any proof of Mister Purple. You will have to take my word for it.
In no way am I trying to make fun of or ridicule your beliefs. You believe them to be true and I respect your belief(s). But it is clear that you do not believe that I have ever actually raised the same questions about the paranormal being in which you believe. I have indeed examined the facts/evidence that has been presented over the millennia as well as current material and have found it wanting. May others have evaluated the same material and there is no proof to support your claims. There have been claims of paranormal beings for 10s of thousands of years. Zeus, Poseidon, Neptune, etc. have all come and gone. Without a single bit of proof that they ever existed. I do not expect you to believe in Mister Purple without some substantial proof. I do not think you would believe in Mister purple without some proof. In fact, for such an extraordinary claim you would expect extraordinary proof. And the burden of providing that proof would fall on me. Why do you think I would believe in you claim of the paranormal being you worship without proof? In fact, for such an extraordinary claim you would have to provide extraordinary proof. And the burden of providing that proof falls on you, the believer. I read and post here because I was raised in a professing household and still have a large number of family members who are still members. I am not trying to promote my beliefs because I do not believe a person can simply decide what they actually believe. I couldn't decide, for example, to believe that Boyle's law was false without being able to examine facts and determine the error for myself. I cannot decide to believe in your god without some verifiable facts that support your claim that the paranormal being you claim exists actually does exist. Religious beliefs are often accompanied by emotions. Sometimes claims are made and clouded in the emotions that the poster is feeling. This often results in distorted claims, misplaced blame, etc. At times it can help to cut through the emotional baggage and try to address the real issues. I hope this addresses any questions you might have.
I appreciate your response and a description of your beliefs but it does not provide the experiences themselves that can be considered by others to compare them to their own experiences. What one person might consider a miracle could be an event that is easily explained by another as a natural/normal experience. Odd that you think the reason people have not heard the voice of god is because they are not being honest. Have you considered the possibility that people who claim to hear the voice of god are the ones not being honest? People claiming paranormal events have never fared well when their claims have been carefully examined. Mr. Rational . ..like previous times I've brought this to you . ..my response was directed at you specifically ..and any others who may overhear in the wings .. but you in particular .. and you divert or decline acknowledgement .. .. if you, Mr. Rational, are of an honest heart, and do desire to know if God is real, YOU can.. .. He does not turn away from that heart . . you being as active here on this board as you are ..what is your purpose ..do you simply wish to correct all of us wayward Christians? ..what drives you to promote your belief system here? .. knowing this board is about a church and a group of people who are related to it in one fashion or another. .. .why are you here? .. ..off in the deep corner of your heart is that question ..and doubt . . ..if you want it answered . .ask Him . .seriously. .honestly . .ask. The "honest" part I'm speaking of is not asking in jest or derision in response to someone saying, "just ask" .. that deep, critical part of you that wonders .. and you prove that that is there. . . as dmmichi's statement says . .prove it . .. I'll ask you to prove me wrong . .. I'll challenge you to seriously ask Him to show Himself to you . .. ..
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 29, 2015 15:17:35 GMT -5
Thank you for your concern (wish) but that "experience" won't happen again unless my brain becomes impaired & therefore my mind does also.
..well . . . I didn't say dead . .but I took this to be you saying all us Christian folk were addled in the brain . ..and it was also just another lame attempt at a little humor . .sorry to have offended ya . . Sorry, No, that wasn't what I meant.
I meant that only for myself.
Only that perhaps with dementia , I would go back to my childhood as I have often seen patients do. Since I was born & raised in the TRUTH I might start believing that way again.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 29, 2015 15:49:09 GMT -5
I appreciate your response and a description of your beliefs but it does not provide the experiences themselves that can be considered by others to compare them to their own experiences. What one person might consider a miracle could be an event that is easily explained by another as a natural/normal experience. Odd that you think the reason people have not heard the voice of god is because they are not being honest. Have you considered the possibility that people who claim to hear the voice of god are the ones not being honest? People claiming paranormal events have never fared well when their claims have been carefully examined. Mr. Rational . ..like previous times I've brought this to you . ..my response was directed at you specifically ..and any others who may overhear in the wings .. but you in particular .. and you divert or decline acknowledgement .. .. if you, Mr. Rational, are of an honest heart, and do desire to know if God is real, YOU can.. .. He does not turn away from that heart . . you being as active here on this board as you are ..what is your purpose ..do you simply wish to correct all of us wayward Christians? . .what drives you to promote your belief system here? .. knowing this board is about a church and a group of people who are related to it in one fashion or another. .. . why are you here? .. ..off in the deep corner of your heart is that question ..and doubt . . ..if you want it answered . .ask Him . .seriously. .honestly . .ask. The "honest" part I'm speaking of is not asking in jest or derision in response to someone saying, "just ask" .. that deep, critical part of you that wonders .. and you prove that that is there. . . as dmmichi's statement says . .prove it . .. I'll ask you to prove me wrong . .. I'll challenge you to seriously ask Him to show Himself to you . .. .. I know you said your post was to Mr. Rational, but you did say others as well .
So I would like to address some of your statements.
You question why would we who are non-believers be "active" on this board.
You ask "what is your purpose?"
What does "knowing this board is about a church and a group of people who are related to it in one fashion or another. .. ." have to do with posting here?
My impression was that everyone here are now or had been in the church known here as the 2x2's. At least they had been born & raised in it or certainly knew about it some way.
I thought that was the common denominator.
Why should you question why we post here any more so than why is any of the others are here?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 17:41:22 GMT -5
Mr. Rational . ..like previous times I've brought this to you . ..my response was directed at you specifically ..and any others who may overhear in the wings .. but you in particular .. and you divert or decline acknowledgement .. .. if you, Mr. Rational, are of an honest heart, and do desire to know if God is real, YOU can.. .. He does not turn away from that heart . . you being as active here on this board as you are ..what is your purpose ..do you simply wish to correct all of us wayward Christians? ..what drives you to promote your belief system here? .. knowing this board is about a church and a group of people who are related to it in one fashion or another. .. .why are you here? .. ..off in the deep corner of your heart is that question ..and doubt . . ..if you want it answered . .ask Him . .seriously. .honestly . .ask. The "honest" part I'm speaking of is not asking in jest or derision in response to someone saying, "just ask" .. that deep, critical part of you that wonders .. and you prove that that is there. . . as dmmichi's statement says . .prove it . .. I'll ask you to prove me wrong . .. I'll challenge you to seriously ask Him to show Himself to you . .. .. Johnny, I hardly know where to start here. First, what you are asking rational to do is something akin to someone asking you to sincerely seek out Allah and start believing in the God of Islam. Are you willing for that? Are you willing to pray to Allah, in all sincerity, five times a day on your knees facing Mecca? Are you willing to begin to study the Quran every day with the same diligence as you read the Bible? If you are truly honest in heart surely you will seek out Allah and in time He will reveal to you that there really is no true God but Allah and that Mohammad is his prophet. Are you willing for that? Why not? As for me, God stopped speaking to me on the day I stopped believing in Him. And in the twenty years since, he has uttered not a word. Not once, not ever has he spoken to me, not even a single word. For anyone like me, it would be a fruitless exercise to call on [your] God whether sincerely or otherwise. The only reason God ever spoke to me was because I believed in Him. The only reason God stopped speaking to me was because I quit believing in Him. One requires a belief in God in order for God to speak to them, that's why your God speaks to you but not to me or to rational. Crying out to [your] God won't change that. Crying out to a God in which one does not believe makes one feel a tad foolish (I don't think rational does foolish). You don't cry out to Allah do you? Of course not. As to why I maintain a presence here ..... It is to provide a different point of view particularly to any who might be growing weary, suspicious or discouraged by the 2x2 system. It is to help any disaffected 2x2s realise that believing that a century old religious sect founded by some slightly unhinged religious fundamentalists in Ireland is God's only true way is both silly and ridiculous. It is to question those who claim that they and they alone have the answers to life's big questions but don't seem to be able to provide them. It is to challenge those who claim that their God and their God alone is the one true God but can't seem to provide anything at all to support such a claim. It is to try to help people to understand that one doesn't have to be in bondage all their lives to what is written in some old books authored by some ancient camel herding men and heavily influenced by their ignorance and prejudices. It is to help people come to terms with the fact that many Gods exist solely in the mind and while such Gods may appear very real indeed to those in whose minds they exist, there is no evidence that they exist outside of the minds inside which they exist. It is to help people realise that a belief in an all powerful God is all well and good but an all powerful God who has never restored as much as a single missing limb is hardly a powerful God at all. It is to encourage people to ask questions, to seek out answers and to think for themselves rather than merely follow the beliefs of their ancestors. It is to help people recognise that believing in a God who watches your very move (including what you get up to in the bedroom), who frowns upon the things which religious fundamentalists frown upon and who has the potential to punish you severely following the day of judgement is a very unhealthy and unnecessary God to believe in. I wonder what your purpose is in posting here? Matt10
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Post by xna on Jan 29, 2015 18:32:16 GMT -5
Mr. Rational . ..like previous times I've brought this to you . ..my response was directed at you specifically ..and any others who may overhear in the wings .. but you in particular .. and you divert or decline acknowledgement .. .. if you, Mr. Rational, are of an honest heart, and do desire to know if God is real, YOU can.. .. He does not turn away from that heart . . you being as active here on this board as you are ..what is your purpose ..do you simply wish to correct all of us wayward Christians? ..what drives you to promote your belief system here? .. knowing this board is about a church and a group of people who are related to it in one fashion or another. .. .why are you here? .. ..off in the deep corner of your heart is that question ..and doubt . . ..if you want it answered . .ask Him . .seriously. .honestly . .ask. The "honest" part I'm speaking of is not asking in jest or derision in response to someone saying, "just ask" .. that deep, critical part of you that wonders .. and you prove that that is there. . . as dmmichi's statement says . .prove it . .. I'll ask you to prove me wrong . .. I'll challenge you to seriously ask Him to show Himself to you . .. .. Johnny, I hardly know where to start here. First, what you are asking rational to do is something akin to someone asking you to sincerely seek out Allah and start believing in the God of Islam. Are you willing for that? Are you willing to pray to Allah, in all sincerity, five times a day on your knees facing Mecca? Are you willing to begin to study the Quran every day with the same diligence as you read the Bible? If you are truly honest in heart surely you will seek out Allah and in time He will reveal to you that there really is no true God but Allah and that Mohammad is his prophet. Are you willing for that? Why not? As for me, God stopped speaking to me on the day I stopped believing in Him. And in the twenty years since, he has uttered not a word. Not once, not ever has he spoken to me, not even a single word. For anyone like me, it would be a fruitless exercise to call on [your] God whether sincerely or otherwise. The only reason God ever spoke to me was because I believed in Him. The only reason God stopped speaking to me was because I quit believing in Him. One requires a belief in God in order for God to speak to them, that's why your God speaks to you but not to me or to rational. Crying out to [your] God won't change that. Crying out to a God in which one does not believe makes one feel a tad foolish (I don't think rational does foolish). You don't cry out to Allah do you? Of course not. As to why I maintain a presence here ..... It is to provide a different point of view particularly to any who might be growing weary, suspicious or discouraged by the 2x2 system. It is to help any disaffected 2x2s realise that believing that a century old religious sect founded by some slightly unhinged religious fundamentalists in Ireland is God's only true way is both silly and ridiculous. It is to question those who claim that they and they alone have the answers to life's big questions but don't seem to be able to provide them. It is to challenge those who claim that their God and their God alone is the one true God but can't seem to provide anything at all to support such a claim. It is to try to help people to understand that one doesn't have to be in bondage all their lives to what is written in some old books authored by some ancient camel herding men and heavily influenced by their ignorance and prejudices. It is to help people come to terms with the fact that many Gods exist solely in the mind and while such Gods may appear very real indeed to those in whose minds they exist, there is no evidence that they exist outside of the minds inside which they exist. It is to help people realise that a belief in an all powerful God is all well and good but an all powerful God who has never restored as much as a single missing limb is hardly a powerful God at all. It is to encourage people to ask questions, to seek out answers and to think for themselves rather than merely follow the beliefs of their ancestors. It is to help people recognise that believing in a God who watches your very move (including what you get up to in the bedroom), who frowns upon the things which religious fundamentalists frown upon and who has the potential to punish you severely following the day of judgement is a very unhealthy and unnecessary God to believe in. I wonder what your purpose is in posting here? Matt10 Well said!
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Post by xna on Jan 30, 2015 13:09:28 GMT -5
Why does God allow suffering and pain? This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen ...
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Post by rational on Jan 30, 2015 15:14:08 GMT -5
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 30, 2015 16:10:28 GMT -5
Why does God allow suffering and pain? This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen ... Another perspective youtu.be/-suvkwNYSQo I think this is hilarious. And, if God was a big (white male) person in the sky, I would be at the front of the line, asking much harder questions than this. I think of the Eckhart Tolle quote: “The word God has become empty of meaning through thousands of years of misuse. I use it sometimes, but I do so sparingly. By misuse, I mean that people who have never even glimpsed the realm of the sacred, the infinite vastness behind that word, use it with great conviction, as if they knew what they are talking about. Or they argue against it, as if they knew what it is that they are denying. This misuse gives rise to absurd beliefs, assertions, and egoic delusions, such as “My or our God is the only true God, and your God is false,” or Nietzsche’s famous statement “God is dead.” The word God has become a closed concept. The moment the word is uttered, a mental image is created, no longer, perhaps, of an old man with a white beard, but still a mental representation of someone or something outside you, and, yes, almost inevitably a male someone or something. Neither God nor Being nor any other word can define or explain the ineffable reality behind the word, so the only important question is whether the word is a help or a hindrance in enabling you to experience That toward which it points. Does it point beyond itself to that transcendental reality, or does it lend itself too easily to becoming no more than an idea in your head that you believe in, a mental idol?” And then there is Kabir: “I laugh when I hear that the fish in the water is thirsty. You don't grasp the fact that what is most alive of all is inside your own house; and you walk from one holy city to the next with a confused look! Kabir will tell you the truth: go wherever you like, to Calcutta or Tibet; if you can't find where your soul is hidden, for you the world will never be real!”
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Post by rational on Jan 30, 2015 17:01:08 GMT -5
Another perspective youtu.be/-suvkwNYSQo I think this is hilarious. And, if God was a big (white male) person in the sky, I would be at the front of the line, asking much harder questions than this. I think of the Eckhart Tolle quote: “The word God has become empty of meaning through thousands of years of misuse. I use it sometimes, but I do so sparingly. By misuse, I mean that people who have never even glimpsed the realm of the sacred, the infinite vastness behind that word, use it with great conviction, as if they knew what they are talking about. Or they argue against it, as if they knew what it is that they are denying. This misuse gives rise to absurd beliefs, assertions, and egoic delusions, such as “My or our God is the only true God, and your God is false,” or Nietzsche’s famous statement “God is dead.” The word God has become a closed concept. The moment the word is uttered, a mental image is created, no longer, perhaps, of an old man with a white beard, but still a mental representation of someone or something outside you, and, yes, almost inevitably a male someone or something. Neither God nor Being nor any other word can define or explain the ineffable reality behind the word, so the only important question is whether the word is a help or a hindrance in enabling you to experience That toward which it points. Does it point beyond itself to that transcendental reality, or does it lend itself too easily to becoming no more than an idea in your head that you believe in, a mental idol?” And then there is Kabir: “I laugh when I hear that the fish in the water is thirsty. You don't grasp the fact that what is most alive of all is inside your own house; and you walk from one holy city to the next with a confused look! Kabir will tell you the truth: go wherever you like, to Calcutta or Tibet; if you can't find where your soul is hidden, for you the world will never be real!” People struggle so long and hard to rationalize their beliefs in some paranormal power that they believe they cannot live without.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 30, 2015 17:16:28 GMT -5
People struggle so long and hard to rationalize their beliefs in some paranormal power that they believe they cannot live without But then you could ask yourself "Is it really 'paranormal', or is it the most real and basic part of our existence?"
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Post by rational on Jan 30, 2015 21:11:25 GMT -5
People struggle so long and hard to rationalize their beliefs in some paranormal power that they believe they cannot live without But then you could ask yourself "Is it really 'paranormal', or is it the most real and basic part of our existence?" :) I could. But there would have to be some indication that there was some element of truth in the claim. Real things are verifiable. Testable. You could make the claim that some 'master controller' or some undefined power was behind all existence or that such a power was a basic part of all things but... where is there any indication that this is the case? Conjecture is fun and interesting but, at the end of the day, it is conjecture. conjecture - the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.
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Post by SharonArnold on Feb 1, 2015 16:43:03 GMT -5
But then you could ask yourself "Is it really 'paranormal', or is it the most real and basic part of our existence?" I could. But there would have to be some indication that there was some element of truth in the claim. Real things are verifiable. Testable. You could make the claim that some 'master controller' or some undefined power was behind all existence or that such a power was a basic part of all things but... where is there any indication that this is the case? Conjecture is fun and interesting but, at the end of the day, it is conjecture. conjecture - the formation or expression of an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof. Your response illustrates quite well the point of the quote I cited – that of the term “God” being such a closed concept to so many people that it is no longer that meaningful. No where did I allude to some “master controller” or some “undefined power behind all existence”. Those are the blanks you filled in all on your own. There are a lot of “real things” that have not been verifiable or testable or measurable for the majority of the time that human kind has existed on this planet. Has anything happened recently that would have changed this? In mathematics, a conjecture is an unproven proposition that appears correct. Or, other definitions would simply state that a conjecture is an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information. Not a bad thing, I would think. I cannot help but think that at least some of the greatest advances in human knowledge were prefaced with “I wonder” or “I suppose” or “I imagine” or “I would guess”. The questions I have been willing to ask myself have done far more to inform the quality of my life than any answers I have arrived at. I get, as Lawrence Krauss says, “Empirical explorations ultimately change our understanding of which questions are important and fruitful and which are not.” I get that. But it’s only part of the picture. You can write people off as still being in the "bawling and fearful infancy of our species", reaching for infantile comfort and reassurance. Or as being delusional with an overwhelming propensity for adult fairy tales. Either may certainly be the case. Or you could wonder if there is something that they are reaching to express, that is not easy to conceptualize or to articulate. You could wonder if they are reaching to express something that somehow puts them in touch with the mystery that is the ground of their own being, and helps them answer the “Who am I?/Where did I come from?/Where am I going?/What shall I do while I am here?” kind of questions. The Buddhists talk about the finger pointing to the moon.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 18:04:59 GMT -5
Why does God allow suffering and pain? It is one of those age old questions. I believe there is a Christian's answer book out there "Why bad things happen to good people" I haven't read it, it might be of interest...? Anyway, I guess I can thank my mother who even before coming of school age used to like to read to us the story of the fiery furnace. The moral of the story wasn't that God saved them because they were good and true men. Because that's not what counted or was important, or made a difference in any case. And they told the king that too. Don't you get it O King? It doesn't matter whether God saves us from your fiery furnace or not. From that I surmised that there is more beyond this life. In fact, the worse it is, the more we can smile about that. Latter I read Jesus telling his disciples, my peace I leave with you, not as the world thinks of peace... with the promises of heaven and life forever in oneness with Him implied, or the Buddha hundreds of years earlier saying something like (with apologies for correctness or synthesis...) the highest spiritual attainment in life is to be content and at rest, no matter what happens; and that you never die, you're reincarnated until you reach that plane and live forever in harmony with the universe. Or modern day workers and other Christians too I suppose, saying, every day is the Sabbath, be at rest, we are at rest, in him. The Muslims probably have something similar, to be willing suicide'rs. I.E. the things of this life are transient, we'll get over them or through them because there is an end to them. There's a better world, better people and a better way ahead.
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Post by bubbles on Feb 2, 2015 0:04:30 GMT -5
I have asked older people to tell me where the nursing homes where when they were young and most of them cannot do that. Do you think it is age related memory? Maybe they would have remembered names like Home for the Aged and Infirm or Boston's Home for Aged Women.Sure it is! That is probably the reason for the celebratory/carnival atmosphere at most funerals.My fear is also along the same line - being the caregiver for a bedridden and/or wheelchair ridden adult who will not wear a diaper! Hahaha..the mind boggles.. My fear is that you are at the mercy of the carers. What say they dont like you? Could give you a pinch or hurt you without bruising you. Or worse. Ive been considering euthanasia a lot lately..naa il just pray to die quick.
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Post by rational on Feb 2, 2015 0:29:39 GMT -5
Your response illustrates quite well the point of the quote I cited – that of the term “God” being such a closed concept to so many people that it is no longer that meaningful. No where did I allude to some “master controller” or some “undefined power behind all existence”. Those are the blanks you filled in all on your own. I think your phrase "Is it really 'paranormal', or is it the most real and basic part of our existence?" is what I used when filling in the blanks. The "most real and basic part of our existence" is certainly defining a power behind all existence. Could you name a couple of things that were claimed to be real but were not testable? I believe there have been many more claims that were not proven than were proven - "Real things" like phlogiston, Blondlot's N-rays, cold fusion, or Todd Akin's theory about pregnancy and rape.Yes - more and more often extraordinary proof is being demanded to support extraordinary claims. Because of the plethora of definitions for conjecture I provided the one I was using. You are free to apply any alternative definition you wish to support your arguments. Wondering is one thing. Basing life decisions on these contemplations is another. Chelation therapy (EDTA) is great for removing heavy metals from the body but 'imagining' it will help with coronary artery disease or 'supposing' it will help in the treatment of autism is ineffective, potentially dangerous, and unethical. I am not opposed to asking questions. In my case the questions are often regarding the unsupported claims I hear. I can understand the comfort people can get from some of their unsupported beliefs. As long as those beliefs do not negatively impact others, people have a right to their beliefs. When someone refuses to have their children vaccinated because it is against their religious beliefs or because they 'suppose' that it might be harmful they endanger others because of their decision. In some cases their beliefs need to be written off. When men are raping children because they believe having sex with a virgin it will cure AIDS/HIV they need to be written off. Again, it is not the asking of the questions that is the issue. It is much the same way that people explain spirituality - that the experience of something is a connection with that something, the feeling of being one with that something, without labeling. Is it something or wishful thinking?
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Post by SharonArnold on Feb 2, 2015 13:11:17 GMT -5
There are a lot of “real things” that have not been verifiable or testable or measurable for the majority of the time that human kind has existed on this planet. Could you name a couple of things that were claimed to be real but were not testable? I believe there have been many more claims that were not proven than were proven - "Real things" like phlogiston, Blondlot's N-rays, cold fusion, or Todd Akin's theory about pregnancy and rape. I did not say “claimed to be real” . I just fearlessly crossed into that “real things” territory, without qualifiers. I think it can be argued that something is not testable 1) if no one knows it exists 2) once someone wonders if something does exist, there is generally a time lag before the necessary vocabulary is developed that proposals can be meaningfully communicated, though mathematics fills this gap in some fields these days 3) generally another time lag while instrumentation and meaningful testing methods are developed. For example, I think most people would concede that microbial pathogens are “real things”. They probably would have existed for a very long time before any thinking primate started wondering about them. If you can believe Wiki, the earliest hints for microbial pathogens as being the cause of certain illnesses appeared in the canonical texts of Ayurveda many centuries before the necessary vocabulary, any kind of instrumentation, or Koch’s postulates. Fracastoro is on record for proposing in 1546 that epidemic diseases are caused by transferable seed-like entities that transmit infection by direct or indirect contact, or even without contact over long distances. That was over a century before van Leeuwenhoek directly observed microorganisms. It took close to a couple more centuries after that before the contributions of Pasteur and Robert Koch. In much the same way, someday human kind may look back on the construction of the Large Hadron Collider as a significant step in more “real things” becoming testable, that previously were not testable. The Buddhists talk about the finger pointing to the moon. It is much the same way that people explain spirituality - that the experience of something is a connection with that something, the feeling of being one with that something, without labeling. Is it something or wishful thinking? Good question. Ummm.… But I think the point may be – there is no, ummm, thinking, of any kind. (You, of all people, may see no virtue in not thinking. For myself, I consider the brief periods of time when I succeed at being conscious (without thinking or labeling) as one of my greatest accomplishments.)
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Post by xna on Feb 2, 2015 15:11:37 GMT -5
Why does God allow suffering and pain? This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering that I have seen ... And the controversy about this clip continues youtu.be/7uIkvrJkvxY
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Post by snow on Feb 2, 2015 17:07:16 GMT -5
I found it rather ironic that the Rev. in that video says that God tells us it's wrong to murder so he chastises humanity, ironically enough, by murdering. It's like saying to you child who hits another child, we don't hit and then gives him a slap! It's okay for the one in power to do it I guess. And because that mindset is hard to grasp, that's when we hear apologists saying that God's mind is beyond our's and not comprehendable. No kidding, who can comprehend evil?
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Post by xna on Feb 2, 2015 17:38:23 GMT -5
I found it rather ironic that the Rev. in that video says that God tells us it's wrong to murder so he chastises humanity, ironically enough, by murdering. It's like saying to you child who hits another child, we don't hit and then gives him a slap! It's okay for the one in power to do it I guess. And because that mindset is hard to grasp, that's when we hear apologists saying that God's mind is beyond our's and not comprehendable. No kidding, who can comprehend evil? How do you defend a god that admits; that evil, it comes from me too.? You can tell the reverend was running out of ammunition when he brought up the "unforgivable sin".
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