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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 8:13:56 GMT -5
Ram, you have a wicked sense of humour. I can't stop giggling, " you dirty rat you.Lol
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Post by rational on Jan 3, 2015 8:39:18 GMT -5
We have been indoctrinated from way back when, and many of us believe, that with God all things are possible. Indoctrinated is a good word to use. Among the synonyms are brainwash, propagandize, proselytize, reeducate, persuade, convince, condition, program, mold, discipline, etc. Unless, of course, you have been indoctrinated. Because, of course, you have been indoctrinated to believe that god's thoughts are not man's thoughts and to prevent questioning you have been convinced that you cannot ever understand the thoughts of the god you serve so you simply accept them. And that is how a good marketing plan should be developed. Set the expectations that all things are possible, the reward in the end will be worth the losses that you encounter in the journey towards that goal. Bernie Madoff showed how even the brightest can be fooled and cheated simply by allowing them to make greed based decisions based on non-verifiable future gain.
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Post by snow on Jan 3, 2015 12:09:15 GMT -5
Life apparently was good for King Solomon. Unlike his father he never had to struggle for anything - and at the end of days, as shown in his book Leviticus, he had grown dark and cold in himself. So does that mean that you need to suffer? Can mankind not learn through observation? Do they actually need to stick their hand on a hot stove to know that it causes pain? Can they not see what it does to someone they have watched do it and learn from that observation? There are plenty of things I know not to do because I know they wouldn't be a good thing by learning by observation. I can vividly understand how they would hurt and not be good for anyone and I can have compassion for anyone that experiences it without experiencing it myself. We can never completely isolate ourselves from never having pain, physical or emotional. And, that likely gives us enough information to be able to be compassionate even though we may look like we have a cushy life with very little reason to be hurt. The Buddha was born a prince with nothing to worry about, but when he saw the suffering of others, he left it all to try and understand that suffering. So we can feel the suffering of others without experiencing it and we can have compassion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 12:29:38 GMT -5
We have been indoctrinated from way back when, and many of us believe, that with God all things are possible. We believe that He created us and gave us free will to make choices- the freedom to choose. He does not force anyone to do anything, either we believe or we choose not believe. I think that the question posed is valid as it is based on the belief that with God all things are possible. It is possible for him to prevent pain and suffering but chooses not to for reasons best known to Himself. ps. Isn't pain and suffering part of the path Jesus marked out? If He is our example then I think that we can expect to have to endure these things to the end. Partaker, Did you come to the conclusion that with God, all things are possible, as a result of; a) the indoctrination which you have referred to; b) analysing the evidence; c) reading about God in a book; or d) some other reason. Matt10
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Post by placid-void on Jan 3, 2015 16:46:03 GMT -5
Intrigued! I am unaccustomed to "un"-rational rational statements so I am intrigued to learn more of the empirical evidence demonstrating that pain is "the result of taking a risk" Pain and suffering are as much a part of reality as comfort and joy. Without them life would be pablum! All, on some level, are the result of taking a risk. The pathophysiology of pain that I am familiar with classifies pain as a sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage. I am aware of nociceptive and neuropathic pain and some of the biochemical and neurological processes leading to conscious awareness of actual/referred pain. I have not encountered data suggesting that pain is the result of taking a risk. I am very interested in learning more of the empirical data supporting this alternate pathway of pain perception.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 3, 2015 17:16:37 GMT -5
Maybe we should turn the issue on its head: I have a friend who is rich, and can't understand anyone who struggles financially. She has never been sick, and has no time for people who talk about their health struggles. She has been popular all her life, and can't understand people who are lonely. She is attractive and had no time for unattractive people. Basically she has no feelings for anyone because life has been so good to her. I wound up feeling more sorry for her than I did for those who are lonely, down and out, or sick. Bert, your post brings to mind the conflict of responding appropriately and effectively to individuals (or situations) that appear to be either tragic or pathetic. The line that differentiates between individuals that are pathetic and those who are tragic is thin and poorly defined. The individuals that you describe as "lonely, down and out, or sick" usually find themselves in such situations as a consequence of circumstances beyond their control. Their situations may often be tragic and I believe an appropriate reaction is to respond with compassion and concern and meaningful support. Pity seems to have little tangible value in these situations. As you describe your friend, however, my reaction is one of pathos. As described, it appears that the individual has made the choice not to effect the trajectory of her life, even though that choice is within her control. My tendency is to view such a person as pathetic and turn my attention elsewhere. I am not completely comfortable with my own reactions but I am unable to summons more appropriate tools for a more effective connection with such individuals.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 17:17:12 GMT -5
Snow quote - "The Buddha was born a prince with nothing to worry about, but when he saw the suffering of others, he left it all to try and understand that suffering. So we can feel the suffering of others without experiencing it and we can have compassion."
You have answered your own question Snow. Buddha "left it all" How can you understand without experience? Experience is about feelings, learning is about knowledge.
And conversely - without suffering yourself, how do those who suffer relate to you?
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Post by placid-void on Jan 3, 2015 17:56:05 GMT -5
So does that mean that you need to suffer? Can mankind not learn through observation? Do they actually need to stick their hand on a hot stove to know that it causes pain? Can they not see what it does to someone they have watched do it and learn from that observation? There are plenty of things I know not to do because I know they wouldn't be a good thing by learning by observation. I can vividly understand how they would hurt and not be good for anyone and I can have compassion for anyone that experiences it without experiencing it myself. We can never completely isolate ourselves from never having pain, physical or emotional. And, that likely gives us enough information to be able to be compassionate even though we may look like we have a cushy life with very little reason to be hurt. The Buddha was born a prince with nothing to worry about, but when he saw the suffering of others, he left it all to try and understand that suffering. So we can feel the suffering of others without experiencing it and we can have compassion. Snow, I am struggling with the perspective that you describe above. I certainly understand and agree that there are many sources of pain that individuals can learn to avoid through observation and/or authoritative explanation. I am less certain of your position that one can have compassion for anyone that experiences physical or emotional pain without experiencing it themselves. To ground the conversation a couple of instances come to mind. I find myself unable to honestly assert that I can relate to the pain and suffering of tribal groups in Darfur. Their experiences lie so far outside my experiences that I am simply incapable to relating to their day to day experiences. In the absence of that experience, how can one effectively offer solace/compassion? The second experience happened many years ago during a "diversity training" program at work. A fellow I was good friends with and that I worked with everyday described a personal experience. He was African-American and he described the feeling of pulling on his "white man mask" everyday as he drove to work and removing that mask each evening has he drove home from work. You cannot imagine, I cannot describe, how profoundly that one moment of descriptive visual imagery has affected my perspective on life. When some personal suffering lies so deeply ingrained and your own experiences differ so dramatically how can one claim understanding or provide meaningful compassion. This question has haunted me since the day of that "diversity training" program.
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Post by snow on Jan 3, 2015 18:45:11 GMT -5
So does that mean that you need to suffer? Can mankind not learn through observation? Do they actually need to stick their hand on a hot stove to know that it causes pain? Can they not see what it does to someone they have watched do it and learn from that observation? There are plenty of things I know not to do because I know they wouldn't be a good thing by learning by observation. I can vividly understand how they would hurt and not be good for anyone and I can have compassion for anyone that experiences it without experiencing it myself. We can never completely isolate ourselves from never having pain, physical or emotional. And, that likely gives us enough information to be able to be compassionate even though we may look like we have a cushy life with very little reason to be hurt. The Buddha was born a prince with nothing to worry about, but when he saw the suffering of others, he left it all to try and understand that suffering. So we can feel the suffering of others without experiencing it and we can have compassion. Snow, I am struggling with the perspective that you describe above. I certainly understand and agree that there are many sources of pain that individuals can learn to avoid through observation and/or authoritative explanation. I am less certain of your position that one can have compassion for anyone that experiences physical or emotional pain without experiencing it themselves. To ground the conversation a couple of instances come to mind. I find myself unable to honestly assert that I can relate to the pain and suffering of tribal groups in Darfur. Their experiences lie so far outside my experiences that I am simply incapable to relating to their day to day experiences. In the absence of that experience, how can one effectively offer solace/compassion? The second experience happened many years ago during a "diversity training" program at work. A fellow I was good friends with and that I worked with everyday described a personal experience. He was African-American and he described the feeling of pulling on his "white man mask" everyday as he drove to work and removing that mask each evening has he drove home from work. You cannot imagine, I cannot describe, how profoundly that one moment of descriptive visual imagery has affected my perspective on life. When some personal suffering lies so deeply ingrained and your own experiences differ so dramatically how can one claim understanding or provide meaningful compassion. This question has haunted me since the day of that "diversity training" program. I understand what you are asking. And I think that while we may not be able to completely grasp the depth of the suffering of another in the extreme cases you have outlined, I would also go as far as to say that we cannot even grasp the depth of suffering of someone we may share the same grief or pain with. Yet we somehow are able to be compassionate and empathize with that person. Pain and suffering are so individual that I cannot say that I understand anyone's level of suffering. I have lost people I loved, but that does not make me 'know' what it is like for someone else to lose someone they love. Yet I can feel my heart break watching them in their pain and I know that I have nothing that I can really say that will be adequate to take their pain away. The suffering of those in Darfur is well beyond my 'knowing' of grief, or suffering that they must deal with daily. Yet my heart hurts to hear of their challenges and pain. So I believe that we can be compassionate even though we may never have experienced what someone is going through. Just knowing they are suffering is enough for me to feel a level of pain, just because I can see they are in pain. Hope that helps a little?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 22:30:29 GMT -5
Personally I think Matt 10 needs to have a think about this guy with the pitchforks? Isn't it the god of this world who goes around sticking pitchforks into peoples' bums?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 22:32:01 GMT -5
Maybe we should turn the issue on its head: I have a friend who is rich, and can't understand anyone who struggles financially. She has never been sick, and has no time for people who talk about their health struggles. She has been popular all her life, and can't understand people who are lonely. She is attractive and had no time for unattractive people. Basically she has no feelings for anyone because life has been so good to her. I wound up feeling more sorry for her than I did for those who are lonely, down and out, or sick. Rather than feeling sorry for her, Bert, I think you need to go and find a pitchfork! Remember, before you use it, tell her, her shoe lace is undone!
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Post by rational on Jan 4, 2015 0:50:00 GMT -5
Intrigued! I am unaccustomed to "un"-rational rational statements so I am intrigued to learn more of the empirical evidence demonstrating that pain is "the result of taking a risk" Pain and suffering are as much a part of reality as comfort and joy. Without them life would be pablum! All, on some level, are the result of taking a risk. The pathophysiology of pain that I am familiar with classifies pain as a sensory and emotional experience associated with actual or potential tissue damage. I am aware of nociceptive and neuropathic pain and some of the biochemical and neurological processes leading to conscious awareness of actual/referred pain. I have not encountered data suggesting that pain is the result of taking a risk. I am very interested in learning more of the empirical data supporting this alternate pathway of pain perception. It was not only physical pain to which I was referring but to the full definition of pain. pain - The physical feeling caused by disease, injury, or something that hurts the body. Mental or emotional suffering, sadness caused by some emotional or mental problem.Examples - Just across the rocks is a rabbit. If you risk the jump to grab it you will either eat and be content of fail to clear the rocks and be in pain. You can take the risk to have an affair with your neighbor. If it goes well you are content. If not - pain on multiple levels. You take the risk of investing your retirement with your new friend Bernie. In the end you feel the joy of having secured a comfortable retirement for your spouse and yourself or you feel the pain of knowing you are going to have to work two jobs for the rest of your life and still be heavily in debt when you die. People take risks every day. Risks expose people to the possibility of joy if the risk is successful and pain is the risk is unsuccessful. The alternative is a life without risks and the danger of dying from boredom.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 4, 2015 11:10:20 GMT -5
It was not only physical pain to which I was referring but to the full definition of pain. pain - The physical feeling caused by disease, injury, or something that hurts the body. Mental or emotional suffering, sadness caused by some emotional or mental problem.Examples - Just across the rocks is a rabbit. If you risk the jump to grab it you will either eat and be content of fail to clear the rocks and be in pain. You can take the risk to have an affair with your neighbor. If it goes well you are content. If not - pain on multiple levels. You take the risk of investing your retirement with your new friend Bernie. In the end you feel the joy of having secured a comfortable retirement for your spouse and yourself or you feel the pain of knowing you are going to have to work two jobs for the rest of your life and still be heavily in debt when you die. People take risks every day. Risks expose people to the possibility of joy if the risk is successful and pain is the risk is unsuccessful. The alternative is a life without risks and the danger of dying from boredom. Rational, thanks for the expansion on your thoughts. The examples you cite clearly involve elements of choice and illustrate how taking a risk might result in pain and/or suffering. I remain intrigued by three aspects of the sentence “All, on some level, are the result of taking a risk.” First I am intrigued by the use of the word “All” which based on the structure of the paragraph suggests that you are referring to “all pain and all suffering”. This appears to me to be a rather sweeping generalization and I am unable to identify a level at which the pain and suffering caused by mental illness or metastatic cancer for example might be considered the result of taking a risk. Second I am intrigued by the somewhat ambiguous phrase “on some level”. Perhaps I am confused by how you intend the phrase “taking a risk” to be interpreted. I interpret “taking a risk” as a cognitive process in which one makes a choice between two or more alternatives. The examples you offer in your response are all of this nature. I am not well grounded in the neurosciences but at the moment I am unable to identify “some level” at which the cognitive processes would enable a person to make the choice (thereby taking a risk) that would result in the pain and suffering of metastatic cancer. Perhaps you could clarify how you intended either “taking a risk” or “on some level” to be interpreted in the context of the paragraph you posted. Finally, I am intrigued by the recollection of an elegant analysis of reality you once presented here on TMB in which you argued that reality is the mere consequence of the probability distributions that underlie the physical laws. If I understood that analysis correctly it would seem that such a stochastic model would render “taking a risk” as little more than a perceptual artifact. Perhaps you could elaborate on how the stochastic materialism model of reality accounts for the perception of pain and suffering (and/or risk-taking). Thanks
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Post by rational on Jan 4, 2015 17:49:13 GMT -5
Rational, thanks for the expansion on your thoughts. The examples you cite clearly involve elements of choice and illustrate how taking a risk might result in pain and/or suffering. You are only looking at the stick. There is also the possibility that the risk taken will result in a reward. The definition of risk is based on the idea that risk exposes one to the chance of injury or loss. And the reason people take risks is because there is also the possibility of gain. One could argue that if a person works with, for example, benzene and decides to take the risk of not working in a fume hood because it is inconvenient, they are increasing the risk of having to endure the pain of cancer down the road. We could live our lives wrapped in bubble-wrap and reduce many risks. We could live our lives as risk free as possible to reduce the possibility of pain/failure/loss. But we would also be giving up the possibility of gains.It is possible that the person elected to risk using some weight loss drugs that were known to cause cancer and then decided not to bother to go and determine what was causing the hematuria and as a result ended up having to suffer the pain resulting from the metastasis of the bladder cancer.The term 'all' may have been used in the same manner that 'all' is used to indicate most or majority. Do you have a reference? It man have been written during one of my periods of sleep-writing!Not certain I understand what you are looking for. Taking a risk doesn't determine the outcome. Taking a risk simply shifts the probability. When you are considering physical pain and its source(which I think you are)it would probably fall under the umbrella of epidemiological associations and the causes and frequency of diseases as well as the associated symptoms, including, but not limited to, pain. Perhaps you should post your definition/understanding of 'stochastic model'. Or point to the discussion you mentioned.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 4, 2015 20:36:29 GMT -5
Thanks for your response rational. Can't think of meaningful follow-up at the moment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2015 13:02:20 GMT -5
Sometimes I think the medical community causes more pain and suffering. I mean their surgery, pills, treatments etc. often prolong agony. We love our elderly relatives and try to postpone the funeral as long as possible. I think the medical profession can be thanked for some of the needless pain and suffering.
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Post by rational on Jan 6, 2015 12:11:39 GMT -5
Sometimes I think the medical community causes more pain and suffering. I mean their surgery, pills, treatments etc. often prolong agony. We love our elderly relatives and try to postpone the funeral as long as possible. I think the medical profession can be thanked for some of the needless pain and suffering. In most cases the patient, or someone they have elected, has the option to refuse medical treatment. Not sure why you feel the doctors are at fault for providing the care requested.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 6, 2015 12:24:19 GMT -5
Sometimes I think the medical community causes more pain and suffering. I mean their surgery, pills, treatments etc. often prolong agony. We love our elderly relatives and try to postpone the funeral as long as possible. I think the medical profession can be thanked for some of the needless pain and suffering. Some interesting work is starting to be done on this issue. A recent book by Dr. Atul Gawande called "Being Mortal" describes some of the questions and approaches being explored. Might be of interest.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 12:17:38 GMT -5
Many times you don't know what they have done UNTIL you get the bill. They want to give you medicine for everything. Some of this medicine makes people mean and crazy. We are obsessed with life extension at ALL costs.
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Post by rational on Jan 7, 2015 12:36:55 GMT -5
Many times you don't know what they have done UNTIL you get the bill. Your point is? In most settings procedures are not done not medication given without the patient, or their proxy, giving their OK. Are you accusing doctors of malpractice?As the patient you have the right to refuse.Don't take it.You are speaking for yourself? It is no surprise that many people don't want to die!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 13:25:06 GMT -5
The medical profession is a joke. The most they can do is extend life. Go visit a nursing home and see the marvels of modern medicine. Dying is as natural as being born. These quacks (many of them) are pill pushers leading to the scourge of prescription drug abuse. The main thing they know how to do is charge, charge and overcharge you, the government or the insurance companies. In any other profession, you don't charge people if you can't fix their products. Not the dang medical profession. Seems like the nursing home population is growing by leaps and bounds. We have interfered with God's plan and we have created these bed bound patients.
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Post by Gene on Jan 7, 2015 19:21:34 GMT -5
Life apparently was good for King Solomon. Unlike his father he never had to struggle for anything - and at the end of days, as shown in his book Leviticus, he had grown dark and cold in himself. I think you're saying that without a pitchfork in my bum, I'm bound to wind up with a numb bum, but I'm not sure.
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Post by rational on Jan 7, 2015 19:38:42 GMT -5
The medical profession is a joke. The most they can do is extend life. This is usually what their patients want them to do!Good to know.There is always the option not to go to the doctor.Should someone like you be elected to kill the bed bound patients? Many people are in nursing homes because their family does not want to care for them. You state: Only a few that have people with past or present meeting experiences.I was wondering which of the 'atheists' that post here do not have meeting experience.
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Post by placid-void on Jan 7, 2015 20:47:21 GMT -5
The medical profession is a joke. The most they can do is extend life. Go visit a nursing home and see the marvels of modern medicine. Dying is as natural as being born. These quacks (many of them) are pill pushers leading to the scourge of prescription drug abuse. The main thing they know how to do is charge, charge and overcharge you, the government or the insurance companies. In any other profession, you don't charge people if you can't fix their products. Not the dang medical profession. Seems like the nursing home population is growing by leaps and bounds. We have interfered with God's plan and we have created these bed bound patients. Walker1903, I was wondering if you have looked into the opportunities of becoming a medical ethics volunteer. I believe that there a many professional and lay organizations struggling with some of the questions you raise and might well be enthusiastic about hearing your feed-back and constructive suggestions for meaningful improvements for health care delivery.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 7, 2015 21:18:33 GMT -5
The medical profession is a joke. The most they can do is extend life. Go visit a nursing home and see the marvels of modern medicine. Dying is as natural as being born. These quacks (many of them) are pill pushers leading to the scourge of prescription drug abuse. The main thing they know how to do is charge, charge and overcharge you, the government or the insurance companies. In any other profession, you don't charge people if you can't fix their products. Not the dang medical profession. Seems like the nursing home population is growing by leaps and bounds. We have interfered with God's plan and we have created these bed bound patients. Walker1903, I was wondering if you have looked into the opportunities of becoming a medical ethics volunteer. I believe that there a many professional and lay organizations struggling with some of the questions you raise and might well be enthusiastic about hearing your feed-back and constructive suggestions for meaningful improvements for health care delivery. AMEN, yknot! Can't think of a better guy for that job than "laverdude!"
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 7, 2015 21:32:10 GMT -5
We have been indoctrinated from way back when, and many of us believe, that with God all things are possible. We believe that He created us and gave us free will to make choices- the freedom to choose. He does not force anyone to do anything, either we believe or we choose not believe. I think that the question posed is valid as it is based on the belief that with God all things are possible. It is possible for him to prevent pain and suffering but chooses not to for reasons best known to Himself. ps. Isn't pain and suffering part of the path Jesus marked out? If He is our example then I think that we can expect to have to endure these things to the end. I thought Jesus was supposed to be some kind of sacrifice that did the suffering FOR us?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 7, 2015 21:44:21 GMT -5
Many times you don't know what they have done UNTIL you get the bill. They want to give you medicine for everything. Some of this medicine makes people mean and crazy. We are obsessed with life extension at ALL costs. Well, -who is to blame for the, "We are obsessed with life extension at ALL costs?"
Why are you blaming the medical community if it is the "WE who are obsessed with life extension at ALL costs?"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 21:48:32 GMT -5
We have been indoctrinated from way back when, and many of us believe, that with God all things are possible. We believe that He created us and gave us free will to make choices- the freedom to choose. He does not force anyone to do anything, either we believe or we choose not believe. I think that the question posed is valid as it is based on the belief that with God all things are possible. It is possible for him to prevent pain and suffering but chooses not to for reasons best known to Himself. ps. Isn't pain and suffering part of the path Jesus marked out? If He is our example then I think that we can expect to have to endure these things to the end. I thought Jesus was supposed to be some kind of sacrifice that did the suffering FOR us?
he did...he was punished and then crucified for our sins...he died so that we don't have to die on judgment day...cause thats when the real suffering begins
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