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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 0:12:51 GMT -5
Why does God allow suffering and pain?
This is one of the best explanations of why God allows pain and suffering
that I have seen ...
A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed.
As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.
They talked about so many things and various subjects.
When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:
'I don't believe that God exists. '
'Why do you say that?' asked the customer. 'Well you just have to go out in
the street to realize that God doesn't exist.
Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people?
Would there be abandoned children?
If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain.
I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things. '
The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't
want to start an argument.
The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.
Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long,
stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard.
He looked dirty and unkempt. The customer turned back and entered the
barber shop again and he said to the barber:
'You know what? Barbers do not exist. '
'How can you say that?' asked the surprised barber.
'I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!'
'No!' the customer exclaimed. 'Barbers don't exist because if they did,
there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside. '
Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come
to me.'
'Exactly!' affirmed the customer. 'That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!
That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him
for help.
That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.
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Post by snow on Dec 31, 2014 1:03:32 GMT -5
Trouble is Virgo, lots of devout god fearing people have pain and suffering. And lots of people who have never believed in God don't. So I don't think it has anything to do with God.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 31, 2014 14:24:53 GMT -5
Trouble is Virgo, lots of devout god fearing people have pain and suffering. And lots of people who have never believed in God don't. So I don't think it has anything to do with God. Thanks, snow.
The Barber story is just the kind of tale that people who think that they are being clever often create!
Actually a lot of "workers" did the same thing!
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 31, 2014 14:38:32 GMT -5
Not trying to be clever now, why does it exist? Why do bad things happen to good people? Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 14:58:47 GMT -5
Not trying to be clever now, why does it exist? Why do bad things happen to good people? Alvin And why do Good things happen to bad people? Why does the sun shine on the righteous as well as the unrighteous? I have convinced myself that in such matters, ours is not to reason why, because such knowledge is too wonderful for us mortal beings. We don't know what the future holds for any of us, but scripture teaches us that God holds the future.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 31, 2014 15:07:02 GMT -5
Not trying to be clever now, why does it exist? Why do bad things happen to good people? Alvin The thread states: "Why does God allow suffering and pain?"
Why? There isn't any god to blame.
God was created by humanity.
Better to ask, "Why do people allow pain & suffering to exist?"
And then try to find the source of pain & suffering & do something to alleviate it.
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Post by snow on Dec 31, 2014 18:45:38 GMT -5
Not trying to be clever now, why does it exist? Why do bad things happen to good people? Alvin Because like 'bad' people, 'good' people make choices that sometimes get them into trouble. There is no reason why anything happens actually, it just does and is life. Our beliefs don't change whether someone we love dies or leaves us. Our beliefs also don't keep us from getting sick or injured. Life just happens and sometimes it's a wondrous affair and sometimes it's challenging. btw I don't like using terms 'bad' and 'good' when referring to people. We are all a mix.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 22:03:05 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Dec 31, 2014 23:04:01 GMT -5
He says that Job never lost faith in Christ. Job never knew Christ. What's that about? So because it is believed God is sovereign he allows pain and suffering because only he knows the final plan? All that tells me is that we should never do anything about our plight or the plight of others because we might be messing with God's final plan. Really? That's how come humanity is in such a mess. Never taking responsibility for the care and love of their fellow humans. When you say this is just part of God's plan, it lets you off the hook to do anything but sit on your hands and shrug and say, well there isn't anything we can do, it's just god's plan. The reason a murderer murders and a rapist rapes is because he can. Not because God allows it. It's because there is no loving entity out there somewhere that can stop it. And, to reason that they will be punished in the afterlife, so this somehow makes it 'ok', is not, once again, taking responsibility for making this world a better place for humanity.
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Post by Lee on Jan 1, 2015 2:23:38 GMT -5
What do you mean "because he can"? The reason a murderer murders or a rapist rapes is because they want to. "Because they can" is about as deep an explanation as society is itself.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 6:03:36 GMT -5
It is said that what God does not allow, He hinders, and conversely, what He does not hinder, He allows. No one realy knows the mind of God because His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways, so it follows that His reasonings are beyond our comprehension as mortal beings. God is Almighty and unpredictable.
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Jan 1, 2015 8:06:01 GMT -5
Not trying to be clever now, why does it exist? Why do bad things happen to good people? Alvin The thread states: "Why does God allow suffering and pain?"
Why? There isn't any god to blame.
You have answered correctly ...God is not to blame ...look to the other guy for someone to blame ..red suit..pointey horns .. pitchfork . .that guy is the one to blame
God was created by humanity.
Better to ask, "Why do people allow pain & suffering to exist?"
And then try to find the source of pain & suffering & do something to alleviate it.
again. .the source of pain and sorrows is identified above. . Christ is the one who can alleviate that . .and will, but if you are not willing to look to him then you stand alone. ..and God does definitely allow gravity to happen to all men
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 1, 2015 11:40:12 GMT -5
Not trying to be clever now, why does it exist? Why do bad things happen to good people? Alvin And why do Good things happen to bad people? Why does the sun shine on the righteous as well as the unrighteous? I have convinced myself that in such matters, ours is not to reason why, because such knowledge is too wonderful for us mortal beings. We don't know what the future holds for any of us, but scripture teaches us that God holds the future. The Psalmist wrote that his feet had nigh on to have slipped when he considered the evil and how they prospered in their lifetime...all the riches they obtained, all the privileges they had, etc...then he sent on to say much later in the Psalm...."Until I went into the sanctuary of God, then I understood their end." Then he went on to say that God reserved these evil or ungodly people to use when the time came for whatever the need was. An example I consistently think of is the Pharaoh of Moses' day! God told Pharaoh that God had made Pharaoh who he was and for the reason that God's name would go out into all the countrysides and be glorified!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 12:06:21 GMT -5
And why do Good things happen to bad people? Why does the sun shine on the righteous as well as the unrighteous? I have convinced myself that in such matters, ours is not to reason why, because such knowledge is too wonderful for us mortal beings. We don't know what the future holds for any of us, but scripture teaches us that God holds the future. The Psalmist wrote that his feet had nigh on to have slipped when he considered the evil and how they prospered in their lifetime...all the riches they obtained, all the privileges they had, etc...then he sent on to say much later in the Psalm...."Until I went into the sanctuary of God, then I understood their end." Then he went on to say that God reserved these evil or ungodly people to use when the time came for whatever the need was. An example I consistently think of is the Pharaoh of Moses' day! God told Pharaoh that God had made Pharaoh who he was and for the reason that God's name would go out into all the countrysides and be glorified! Yep, God surely did harden Pharaoh's heart.
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Post by snow on Jan 1, 2015 12:31:46 GMT -5
It is said that what God does not allow, He hinders, and conversely, what He does not hinder, He allows. No one realy knows the mind of God because His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways, so it follows that His reasonings are beyond our comprehension as mortal beings. God is Almighty and unpredictable. Oh wow, Almighty and unpredictable. Great combination for atrocities and disaster! Reading about the God of the bible and what that God was capable of makes me sooo glad I do not have his thoughts or his ways actually.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 13:51:14 GMT -5
It is said that what God does not allow, He hinders, and conversely, what He does not hinder, He allows. No one realy knows the mind of God because His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways, so it follows that His reasonings are beyond our comprehension as mortal beings. God is Almighty and unpredictable. Oh wow, Almighty and unpredictable. Great combination for atrocities and disaster! Reading about the God of the bible and what that God was capable of makes me sooo glad I do not have his thoughts or his ways actually. Well we read that God is loving, compassionate, forgiving etc. But we also read about what He is capable of doing if anyone incurs His wrath, or even takes His name in vain. There is a clear warning message in Luke 4:12, Matthew 4:7, and in Deuteron. 6:15-16. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God......
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Post by snow on Jan 1, 2015 13:54:09 GMT -5
Oh wow, Almighty and unpredictable. Great combination for atrocities and disaster! Reading about the God of the bible and what that God was capable of makes me sooo glad I do not have his thoughts or his ways actually. Well we read that God is loving, compassionate, forgiving etc. But we also read about what He is capable of doing if anyone incurs His wrath, or even takes His name in vain. There is a clear warning message in Luke 4:12, Matthew 4:7, and in Deuteron. 6:15-16. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God...... And, it appears he too can be tempted? Interesting how much he is like a human, and the only things we say we can't understand about him is when what he does is horrific and then we justify his behavior by saying he is sooo much above us we just can't understand. I say we need to rethink that little bit of 'justification'.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 14:11:47 GMT -5
Well we read that God is loving, compassionate, forgiving etc. But we also read about what He is capable of doing if anyone incurs His wrath, or even takes His name in vain. There is a clear warning message in Luke 4:12, Matthew 4:7, and in Deuteron. 6:15-16. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God...... And, it appears he too can be tempted? Interesting how much he is like a human, and the only things we say we can't understand about him is when what he does is horrific and then we justify his behavior by saying he is sooo much above us we just can't understand. I say we need to rethink that little bit of 'justification'. Backed up by scriptures again: He that is above is above all. John 3:31, Ephes1:21.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 1, 2015 14:45:46 GMT -5
And, it appears he too can be tempted? Interesting how much he is like a human, and the only things we say we can't understand about him is when what he does is horrific and then we justify his behavior by saying he is sooo much above us we just can't understand. I say we need to rethink that little bit of 'justification'. Backed up by scriptures again: He that is above is above all. John 3:31, Ephes1:21. Precisely! "Backed up by scriptures" is exactly why I don't think the "scriptures"(bible) are a very reliable source of information on morality.
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Post by rational on Jan 1, 2015 15:29:32 GMT -5
It is said that what God does not allow, He hinders, and conversely, what He does not hinder, He allows. No one realy knows the mind of God because His thoughts are not our thoughts and His ways are not our ways, so it follows that His reasonings are beyond our comprehension as mortal beings. God is Almighty and unpredictable. It is the easy out. Simply state that no one can explain or understand god/the mind of god/the ways of god.
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Post by snow on Jan 1, 2015 16:42:30 GMT -5
And, it appears he too can be tempted? Interesting how much he is like a human, and the only things we say we can't understand about him is when what he does is horrific and then we justify his behavior by saying he is sooo much above us we just can't understand. I say we need to rethink that little bit of 'justification'. Backed up by scriptures again: He that is above is above all. John 3:31, Ephes1:21. Yes, I know the bible backs up and justifies it's God's behavior. I just can't. I can never believe that the things that being supposedly did can be justified by saying that being is above us. There was an older professing lady who used to say 'two wrongs don't make a right'. What that God has done isn't 'right' by any measuring stick I can come up with. I don't believe in that entity though which is a good thing. No need for me to justify the actions of a being I don't think exists. I see life as a bunch of polarities. Experiencing both allows us to experience life in it's many circumstances. That way I don't need to believe in a devil to blame the bad things on and I don't need to credit a God for any of the good things. I can blame myself for my decisions or credit myself and others for the good things I experience. I believe that's all that's happening anyway.
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Post by slowtosee on Jan 1, 2015 17:05:31 GMT -5
Looks like another question that basically we all agree on the answer. I don't know. Cool. Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 18:48:07 GMT -5
Backed up by scriptures again: He that is above is above all. John 3:31, Ephes1:21. Yes, I know the bible backs up and justifies it's God's behavior. I just can't. I can never believe that the things that being supposedly did can be justified by saying that being is above us. There was an older professing lady who used to say 'two wrongs don't make a right'. What that God has done isn't 'right' by any measuring stick I can come up with. I don't believe in that entity though which is a good thing. No need for me to justify the actions of a being I don't think exists. I see life as a bunch of polarities. Experiencing both allows us to experience life in it's many circumstances. That way I don't need to believe in a devil to blame the bad things on and I don't need to credit a God for any of the good things. I can blame myself for my decisions or credit myself and others for the good things I experience. I believe that's all that's happening anyway. I understand your position and I respect you for declaring it so boldly. Do you think that the world would have been a much better place if there was never any mention about God, heaven, hell, commandments, religeon etc.? Do you think that people would be more or less kind and loving to one another, and in the absence of the fear of God, would there be many more violent crimes like murder etc. would many more folks be more ruthless and cruel/heartless? Would there be a sort of universal " law of the jungle" where the fittest in societies would survive? Would there be far greater immorality? What would there be to hold people back if it were not for the belief that an Almighty God is watching over us?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 1, 2015 18:59:33 GMT -5
Oh wow, Almighty and unpredictable. Great combination for atrocities and disaster! Reading about the God of the bible and what that God was capable of makes me sooo glad I do not have his thoughts or his ways actually. Well we read that God is loving, compassionate, forgiving etc. But we also read about what He is capable of doing if anyone incurs His wrath, or even takes His name in vain. There is a clear warning message in Luke 4:12, Matthew 4:7, and in Deuteron. 6:15-16. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God...... Why would we expect our Father in heaven to be any different then the best of fathers on earth? Come on...it clearly states that God made man in His own image! So having an heavenly Father who gets very upset when disobedients and blatant denials etc happen, what would a natural earthly father do in such acase? These days perhaps earthly fathers put somebody on lockdown for days in the face of disobedience, etc, eh?
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Post by snow on Jan 1, 2015 19:02:00 GMT -5
Yes, I know the bible backs up and justifies it's God's behavior. I just can't. I can never believe that the things that being supposedly did can be justified by saying that being is above us. There was an older professing lady who used to say 'two wrongs don't make a right'. What that God has done isn't 'right' by any measuring stick I can come up with. I don't believe in that entity though which is a good thing. No need for me to justify the actions of a being I don't think exists. I see life as a bunch of polarities. Experiencing both allows us to experience life in it's many circumstances. That way I don't need to believe in a devil to blame the bad things on and I don't need to credit a God for any of the good things. I can blame myself for my decisions or credit myself and others for the good things I experience. I believe that's all that's happening anyway. I understand your position and I respect you for declaring it so boldly. Do you think that the world would have been a much better place if there was never any mention about God, heaven, hell, commandments, religeon etc.? Do you think that people would be more or less kind and loving to one another, and in the absence of the fear of God, would there be many more violent crimes like murder etc. would many more folks be more ruthless and cruel/heartless? Would there be a sort of universal " law of the jungle" where the fittest in societies would survive? Would there be far greater immorality? What would there be to hold people back if it was not for the belief that an Almighty God is watching over us? Well the world survived just fine and probably no more violently before the birth of the Christian God. Hinduism and Buddhism entered the world before Judaism or Christianity. They weren't perfect either, but they also have attempted to give guidelines of how to live a more fulfilling, peaceful and loving life. So do I think religion has no place? No, I think it probably had it's place, but I also believe those days are quickly declining and there is far more need for an understanding of how humanity can work and live together in greater harmony. Unfortunately, the very thing that was used to make people more loving and compassionate has now declined to a place where it is used to justify division and judgment on groups that do not agree with them. Watching a debate last night really brought that to light in a very big way. There was an atheist, a couple of traditional Christians, but not fundamentalists, a gay ordained priest and a fundamentalist Christian. The fundamentalist Christian was the only one that could not allow the others to have their views, because it was rigidly set in his mind that if it wasn't the way he understood the bible, then it wasn't right and could not be condoned. He even called down the gay priest telling him he would should be very careful and that he felt that Jesus would turn him away when he died. It is pretty disgusting listening to that kind of rhetoric in this day and age, where more and more people are beginning to see the violence and danger in that kind of thought. More and more people are trying to allow people to have their own beliefs without condemning them to an eternity of hell. while most of these people always like to add the caveat 'I will let God be the judge', you know very well what they really think. They have decided where you are going and that you are a sinner that is lost. Once someone holds that mindset about another person, it is very easy to deny them their humanity and easier to do things to them that imitate the actions of the OT God, or the God of the Quran and justify their willingness to do harm in God's name. It is seen when groups wish to bring their own beliefs into government and impose them on others that hold different beliefs. Just some of the thoughts I have about rigid religious beliefs. Beautiful when loving, dangerous when judging.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 1, 2015 19:51:47 GMT -5
The thread states: "Why does God allow suffering and pain?"
Why? There isn't any god to blame.
You have answered correctly ...God is not to blame ...look to the other guy for someone to blame ..red suit..pointey horns .. pitchfork . .that guy is the one to blame
God was created by humanity.
Better to ask, "Why do people allow pain & suffering to exist?"
And then try to find the source of pain & suffering & do something to alleviate it.
again. .the source of pain and sorrows is identified above. . Christ is the one who can alleviate that . .and will, but if you are not willing to look to him then you stand alone. ..and God does definitely allow gravity to happen to all men Did You misunderstand what I said?
I didn't say, "God is NOT to blame" I said that, "There isn't any god to blame."
In other words, "There is no god."
The idea of God was created by man & exists in people's minds.
God did NOT create "man" in god's image; man DID create a god in man's image!
Man also created the whole rigamarole of "guys in red suit..pointy horns .. pitchfork" as well as angels, heaven, hell, etc.
As for Christ,- he also was created by man as well. (As well as many other gods & christs have been created) Christ hasn't alleviated the "suffering & pain" in the world, even for those who already "look to him. "
It is better to face reality and know that we already stand alone.
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Post by xna on Jan 1, 2015 20:24:03 GMT -5
Do you think that the world would have been a much better place if there was never any mention about God, heaven, hell, commandments, religeon etc.? Do you think that people would be more or less kind and loving to one another, and in the absence of the fear of God, would there be many more violent crimes like murder etc. would many more folks be more ruthless and cruel/heartless? Would there be a sort of universal " law of the jungle" where the fittest in societies would survive? Would there be far greater immorality? What would there be to hold people back if it were not for the belief that an Almighty God is watching over us? Very important question. I find the Scientific method to be the most reliable way of knowing. You might enjoy this short talk by Paul Bloom, Professor of Psychology and Cognitive Science at Yale University on this topic. www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPr1N6XVYWs
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 1, 2015 20:33:25 GMT -5
Yes, I know the bible backs up and justifies it's God's behavior. I just can't. I can never believe that the things that being supposedly did can be justified by saying that being is above us. There was an older professing lady who used to say 'two wrongs don't make a right'. What that God has done isn't 'right' by any measuring stick I can come up with. I don't believe in that entity though which is a good thing. No need for me to justify the actions of a being I don't think exists. I see life as a bunch of polarities. Experiencing both allows us to experience life in it's many circumstances. That way I don't need to believe in a devil to blame the bad things on and I don't need to credit a God for any of the good things. I can blame myself for my decisions or credit myself and others for the good things I experience. I believe that's all that's happening anyway. I understand your position and I respect you for declaring it so boldly. Do you think that the world would have been a much better place if there was never any mention about God, heaven, hell, commandments, religion etc.? Do you think that people would be more or less kind and loving to one another, and in the absence of the fear of God, would there be many more violent crimes like murder etc. would many more folks be more ruthless and cruel/heartless? Would there be a sort of universal " law of the jungle" where the fittest in societies would survive? Would there be far greater immorality? What would there be to hold people back if it were not for the belief that an Almighty God is watching over us? Partaker, do you think that the world HAS been a better place because of a belief in "God, heaven, hell, and the commandments?"
There is a factor in evolutionary biology concerning people being cooperative & treating one another with justice & kindness.
If "God is watching over them" is all that is holding people back from acting unkindly toward their fellowmen doesn't that mean they aren't very in control of themselves?
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