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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 21:40:19 GMT -5
I posted this topic on here a few weeks ago, then I took it down, because I was angry about some of the things that we said about Jesus. Then, I received some private messages and personal emails stating this was really an interesting post and I was asked why I deleted it. Okay, this time, I will not delete it for ANY reason. I personally don't want to deny Jesus; but, at the same time, I want to clarify this is merely a question I'm asking. I haven't, unfortunately, have not gone to church nor attended meetings for YEARS; I'm talking over 20 years, therefore, I am not passing judgment on anyone. It's merely a question. Okay, in St. Matthew Chapter 13 the disciples asked Jesus, in verse 10, why he spoke to the multitudes of people in parables, and Jesus answered the disciples in Chapter 11 " ... because it is given unto you [disciples] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given ..." and on in verse 13 Jesus explains further " ... therefore, speak I to them I parables: because they seeing see not and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand ..." and he tells the disciples in verse 16 " ... for blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear ..." Now my question is ... why would God make it so the multitudes of people would NOT understand what they see or hear? To me this is like 'predestined' failure; they were condemned by God not to understand nor matter what was said or illustrated to them; but, WHY? It would see to me that God would WANT everyone there to understand. Then, another question is spurned by verse 17 " ... many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see and have not seen them and to hear those things you have heard and have not heard them ..." Ok, I don't consider myself a 'righteous' man. I mean ... I don't smoke nor drink nor do many sinful things, don't do drugs, nor frequent places of ill repute, etc., but, I certainly am not a 'saint,' ( but what is a 'saint' really), however, if 'righteous' men, and 'upright' men and 'prophets' were not allowed to understand ... WHY? and where does that leave the rest of us? Is it futile to even try to live right? Are we already 'precondemned' to the 'bad place?" I just had to ask for clarification on this.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 22:22:44 GMT -5
I posted this topic on here a few weeks ago, then I took it down, because I was angry about some of the things that we said about Jesus. Then, I received some private messages and personal emails stating this was really an interesting post and I was asked why I deleted it. Okay, this time, I will not delete it for ANY reason. I personally don't want to deny Jesus; but, at the same time, I want to clarify this is merely a question I'm asking. I haven't, unfortunately, have not gone to church nor attended meetings for YEARS; I'm talking over 20 years, therefore, I am not passing judgment on anyone. It's merely a question. Okay, in St. Matthew Chapter 13 the disciples asked Jesus, in verse 10, why he spoke to the multitudes of people in parables, and Jesus answered the disciples in Chapter 11 " ... because it is given unto you [disciples] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given ..." and on in verse 13 Jesus explains further " ... therefore, speak I to them I parables: because they seeing see not and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand ..." and he tells the disciples in verse 16 " ... for blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear ..." Now my question is ... why would God make it so the multitudes of people would NOT understand what they see or hear? To me this is like 'predestined' failure; they were condemned by God not to understand nor matter what was said or illustrated to them; but, WHY? It would see to me that God would WANT everyone there to understand. Then, another question is spurned by verse 17 " ... many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see and have not seen them and to hear those things you have heard and have not heard them ..." Ok, I don't consider myself a 'righteous' man. I mean ... I don't smoke nor drink nor do many sinful things, don't do drugs, nor frequent places of ill repute, etc., but, I certainly am not a 'saint,' ( but what is a 'saint' really), however, if 'righteous' men, and 'upright' men and 'prophets' were not allowed to understand ... WHY? and where does that leave the rest of us? Is it futile to even try to live right? Are we already 'precondemned' to the 'bad place?" I just had to ask for clarification on this. okay the easy question first... the verse about prophets and righteous men is really about those that had already died and never got to see or hear Christ physically I.E moses, jacob, abraham, david...etc..etc..
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Post by xna on Dec 20, 2014 22:43:11 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Dec 20, 2014 22:51:57 GMT -5
I am in the middle of an interesting book you might like Jetmech. It's called 'The Gospel according to Jesus' by Stephen Mitchell.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 23:21:53 GMT -5
I posted this topic on here a few weeks ago, then I took it down, because I was angry about some of the things that we said about Jesus. Then, I received some private messages and personal emails stating this was really an interesting post and I was asked why I deleted it. Okay, this time, I will not delete it for ANY reason. I personally don't want to deny Jesus; but, at the same time, I want to clarify this is merely a question I'm asking. I haven't, unfortunately, have not gone to church nor attended meetings for YEARS; I'm talking over 20 years, therefore, I am not passing judgment on anyone. It's merely a question. Okay, in St. Matthew Chapter 13 the disciples asked Jesus, in verse 10, why he spoke to the multitudes of people in parables, and Jesus answered the disciples in Chapter 11 " ... because it is given unto you [disciples] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given ..." and on in verse 13 Jesus explains further " ... therefore, speak I to them I parables: because they seeing see not and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand ..." and he tells the disciples in verse 16 " ... for blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear ..." Now my question is ... why would God make it so the multitudes of people would NOT understand what they see or hear? To me this is like 'predestined' failure; they were condemned by God not to understand nor matter what was said or illustrated to them; but, WHY? It would see to me that God would WANT everyone there to understand. Then, another question is spurned by verse 17 " ... many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see and have not seen them and to hear those things you have heard and have not heard them ..." Ok, I don't consider myself a 'righteous' man. I mean ... I don't smoke nor drink nor do many sinful things, don't do drugs, nor frequent places of ill repute, etc., but, I certainly am not a 'saint,' ( but what is a 'saint' really), however, if 'righteous' men, and 'upright' men and 'prophets' were not allowed to understand ... WHY? and where does that leave the rest of us? Is it futile to even try to live right? Are we already 'precondemned' to the 'bad place?" I just had to ask for clarification on this. the thing is that He already knew what was in their hearts and knew they were going to reject Him He said i would have gathered you but you would not He knew who were going to accept Him through faith it may seem harsh but we have to remember He was doing the will of God and we have to accept it is God's right to do anything He wishes i don't believe anyone is precondemned if they have a heart that The Father wishes if one asks as Jesus says, like how Paul asked, what will you have me to do? where will you have me be? being fully prepared to do as He asks one to do with no thoughts of your own but in complete faith do without any question in thought or deed. there are many examples of one's doing such in the Bible, Namann for a start are you prepared to lose everything of yourself to gain Christ?
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Post by xna on Dec 21, 2014 5:44:24 GMT -5
You can read in the bible where you are not in control, god changed their minds for them; hardened their hearts, gave them a strong delusion, etc.
This brings up the questions; is god just playing with mankind like he did with Job, do you control your own destination, or is it predestined for you?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 9:34:47 GMT -5
I was thinking from the standpoint of ' ... I will never forsake you ..." when I was shown this chapter by worker a few months ago but just kept it to myself at the time.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 9:36:09 GMT -5
I am in the middle of an interesting book you might like Jetmech. It's called 'The Gospel according to Jesus' by Stephen Mitchell. I'll get ahold of this book Snow. It sounds like an interesting book.
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Post by snow on Dec 21, 2014 12:08:52 GMT -5
I am in the middle of an interesting book you might like Jetmech. It's called 'The Gospel according to Jesus' by Stephen Mitchell. I'll get ahold of this book Snow. It sounds like an interesting book. It is so far, I'm not finished it. Looks at what was Jesus' words vs what someone said were Jesus words. Very interesting. A bit like the Jefferson NT except with some views of course by the author.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 21, 2014 12:22:53 GMT -5
I posted this topic on here a few weeks ago, then I took it down, because I was angry about some of the things that we said about Jesus. Then, I received some private messages and personal emails stating this was really an interesting post and I was asked why I deleted it. Okay, this time, I will not delete it for ANY reason. I personally don't want to deny Jesus; but, at the same time, I want to clarify this is merely a question I'm asking. I haven't, unfortunately, have not gone to church nor attended meetings for YEARS; I'm talking over 20 years, therefore, I am not passing judgment on anyone. It's merely a question. Okay, in St. Matthew Chapter 13 the disciples asked Jesus, in verse 10, why he spoke to the multitudes of people in parables, and Jesus answered the disciples in Chapter 11 " ... because it is given unto you [disciples] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given ..." and on in verse 13 Jesus explains further " ... therefore, speak I to them I parables: because they seeing see not and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand ..." and he tells the disciples in verse 16 " ... for blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear ..." Now my question is ... why would God make it so the multitudes of people would NOT understand what they see or hear? To me this is like 'predestined' failure; they were condemned by God not to understand nor matter what was said or illustrated to them; but, WHY? It would see to me that God would WANT everyone there to understand. Then, another question is spurned by verse 17 " ... many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see and have not seen them and to hear those things you have heard and have not heard them ..." Ok, I don't consider myself a 'righteous' man. I mean ... I don't smoke nor drink nor do many sinful things, don't do drugs, nor frequent places of ill repute, etc., but, I certainly am not a 'saint,' ( but what is a 'saint' really), however, if 'righteous' men, and 'upright' men and 'prophets' were not allowed to understand ... WHY? and where does that leave the rest of us? Is it futile to even try to live right? Are we already 'precondemned' to the 'bad place?" I just had to ask for clarification on this. Actually this is spoken during the time Jesus was trying to get the message out to all of Judea, the children of Israel only....this was supposed to have been their "last call' before the salvation that was of the Jews as Jesus called it was to be opened up to the Gentile nations. Thus this all fits with what went on in Malachi, where we read that the Children of Israel were offering blemish offerings to God, disobeying Him, coming and God etc. God said in Malachi that He was going to wrest Salvation from the Children of Israel and give it to the Gentile Nations in order to bring them to jealousy and hopefully be able to turn them back to Him. Thus God says that the CoI have their ears and eyes sealed shut and cannot understand the things of the kingdom of heaven. And only the Apostles were given that right to understand because they were to be the ones who would carry that gospel of salvation to the Gentile nations until the time of the Gentiles were fulfilled. The message in Mt. 10, 11 to the terriotories that Jesus limited his Apostles and the 70 to was "the kingdom of heaven is at hand." They should have understood that message, but no their ears and eyes were sealed shut by their own hardheartedness. There were not multitudes of people God had shut the ears and eyes of...it was the disobedient Children of Israel who God had sought time after time to keep turned back to Him and them show Him that they loved Him with all their heart, mind and soul! As the commandments so said. But no, they sought after the gods of their heathen neighbors and worshipped them and offered blemish offerings to God, also they did keep the rules of offering though with blemished stock, but they failed in the one thing and that was to obey both the first and second commandments...this was their disobedience that God was very hurt over and was the reason He sought to give the chance of salvation to the Gentile nations "for a season"......God will return and bring those C o I back into His grace, for they are His inheritance!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 12:52:03 GMT -5
I posted this topic on here a few weeks ago, then I took it down, because I was angry about some of the things that we said about Jesus. Then, I received some private messages and personal emails stating this was really an interesting post and I was asked why I deleted it. Okay, this time, I will not delete it for ANY reason. I personally don't want to deny Jesus; but, at the same time, I want to clarify this is merely a question I'm asking. I haven't, unfortunately, have not gone to church nor attended meetings for YEARS; I'm talking over 20 years, therefore, I am not passing judgment on anyone. It's merely a question. Okay, in St. Matthew Chapter 13 the disciples asked Jesus, in verse 10, why he spoke to the multitudes of people in parables, and Jesus answered the disciples in Chapter 11 " ... because it is given unto you [disciples] to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given ..." and on in verse 13 Jesus explains further " ... therefore, speak I to them I parables: because they seeing see not and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand ..." and he tells the disciples in verse 16 " ... for blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear ..." Now my question is ... why would God make it so the multitudes of people would NOT understand what they see or hear? To me this is like 'predestined' failure; they were condemned by God not to understand nor matter what was said or illustrated to them; but, WHY? It would see to me that God would WANT everyone there to understand. Then, another question is spurned by verse 17 " ... many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see and have not seen them and to hear those things you have heard and have not heard them ..." Ok, I don't consider myself a 'righteous' man. I mean ... I don't smoke nor drink nor do many sinful things, don't do drugs, nor frequent places of ill repute, etc., but, I certainly am not a 'saint,' ( but what is a 'saint' really), however, if 'righteous' men, and 'upright' men and 'prophets' were not allowed to understand ... WHY? and where does that leave the rest of us? Is it futile to even try to live right? Are we already 'precondemned' to the 'bad place?" I just had to ask for clarification on this. back to the first question the multitude... God wants a people that are paying attention and searching for him he gets that through parables. it takes a little time and study and effort to go through the parables and understand them all... Jesus also said the following: Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Mat_20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. Mat_22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. he also said: Joh_3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. and this: Luk_11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 18:24:44 GMT -5
interesting Wally. Thanks.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 22, 2014 16:49:49 GMT -5
Since those parts of scripture speak of a "limited" number of people, it surely is talking about the Children of Israel....for didn't John see in heaven an innumerable number of folk(not C of I) dressed in white and wasn't he told that they were those who had washed their robes white in the blood of their Saviour? So the many are called and few are chosen have to be about the Children of Israel.....and that is because of their own turning away from God.....so God is going to turn all His grace toward the Gentile nations in order to make the C o I jealous and cause those left to turn back to God. I hope that happens!
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Post by raisininthehotdogend on Dec 25, 2014 12:22:48 GMT -5
In reading over this 13th chapter of Matthew, we note the question that was asked by the disciples, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" It would seem there came a turning point in the ministry of Jesus. He didn't speak in parables at the beginning of His ministry. It seems He only began to speak in parables at the end of two years. Jesus got into a boat. pushed out a little from shore, and spoke first the parable of the sower, and afterwards the disciples asked Him, "Why do you speak in parables?" A parable is what we might call a story with two meanings: a meaning on the surface, and a meaning below the surface; a meaning that some of those who were listening could only understand from a purely human or natural viewpoint, but which others who were listening could understand its spiritual meaning and spiritual significance, and Jesus said in answer to this question, "Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but to them it is not given. There were numbers of people who listened to Jesus and all they heard was the story, and all they understood was the surface meaning, but there were others of that company who not only understood the surface meaning, but they could understand the real spiritual meaning that Jesus was seeking to convey to their minds, the lesson He was anxious for them to learn. At the close of this chap, after He had spoken all the parables, He asked those disciples, "Have you understood all these things?" They said, "Yes, Lord, we have understood," and then He said, "Therefore, every scribe which is instructed unto the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old." Now that ye have understood these things, now that the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven have been made clear to your minds, you are responsible, having been instructed, to bring out of this treasure house things that are new and things that are old.
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