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Post by xna on Dec 18, 2014 19:03:01 GMT -5
The fact that many christians don't agree on what / who God is, speaks volumes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 19:20:00 GMT -5
The fact that many christians don't agree on what / who God is, speaks volumes. There is supposed to be one Almighty God, but not only do some Christians have differing views, and name titles, so do other religeons, e.g. Muslims, Rastafarians- Allah, Jah, Jehovah etc. etc.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 18, 2014 19:24:02 GMT -5
The fact that many christians don't agree on what / who God is, speaks volumes. God reveals themselves to the Christians slowly, one day at a time, and sometimes it takes years, it depends on the person ability to accept it. Our human minds can't grasp God's mind, His persons in a few years! It takes time, months, and years. God reveals to us of Who He is as we continue to grow in His love. That is what people tell themselves because they can't give up that "invisiable childhood friend" who has just lingered on because they can't or don't want to grow up.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 4:30:01 GMT -5
Ram, is very confusing in his own mind, because he doesn't fully understand the meaning of the word God. He believes firmly that the word God refers ONLY to God the Father and Christ is NOT God. The Old and New Testament Scriptures have shown us other wise, Christ the Redeemer is both LORD and God. NOT understanding the word God, or who He/They are it can be a stumbling block to many people. Someone wrote: Definition of God1) Capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality a. Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe b. Divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit, infinite Mind 2) A being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality. 3) A person or thing of supreme value. 4) A powerful ruler. God the Father and Christ the LORD God deserve our worship, adoration and praises for Eternity. Nathan, it is you who is confused. You are confused by the Devil who has served you up a false God...i.e. the God of the Trinity. Jesus Christ is the human being Son of God who came to the Earth to "reveal" God the Father. He left us with the Lord's prayer. "Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be thy name!" Trinitarians need to start listening to Jesus. They need to wean themselves away from false doctrines of Divinity and start understanding what "Hallowed" means. This is what Jesus wants us to focus on, NOT the concocted mental fantasies of man. On this occasion I fully support the Workers' view of Jesus and God. It is far more correct than the Trinitarian bilge which is so commonly promoted. But then, the Devil wanted Jesus's place, didn't he? Well he's got it. Most of Christendom believes in a false God and you my son, have likewise fallen into the same trap. Always go with Jesus's definitions of who God is and who he, himself is. Above you are quoting mans' definitions, NOT the Word of Truth! On your own head be it!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 4:34:33 GMT -5
The fact that many christians don't agree on what / who God is, speaks volumes. God reveals about Himself/Themselves to the Christians/believers slowly, one day at a time, and sometimes it takes years, it depends on the person ability to accept it. Our human minds can't grasp God's mind, His persons in a few years! It takes time, months, and years. God reveals to us of Who He is as we continue to grow in His love. Everyone of us are on different levels of learning, and understanding. Some are fast learners, others are NOT, and God knows it, so He gives us His understanding according to our willingness, capacity, and ability.If people would just accept the simplicity that is in Jesus. It is astounding just how simple it is, but man wants more! He wants a God Son of God, not a human being Son of God.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 6:00:22 GMT -5
Nathan, no doubt you agree that the Word of the Old Testament was made flesh (human being) in the New Testament?
In order to get an understanding of The Word, we must study how it is revealed in the flesh in the New Testament. Yes the Word is God contextually. Just as the Holy Spirit is God contextually (it is his power or Spirit, not a separate being). If we accept the pre-existence of Jesus (there are other options) as the Word, then in order to understand who and what the Word is/was and it's relationship to God the Father, then we must look to the "revealed" Word in the NT to get an understanding.
How did the pre-existing Word differ from the Word in human flesh? Well as far as I can see, apart from Spirit becoming flesh, the only real difference is what we are told in Hebrews Chapter 2. The first ten verses say a lot about how we should approach things and not be waylaid by mans' later understandings.
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. [/i] Here we see Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, for our sake. He would taste death for us all in order to bring many to God. Verse 4 clearly points out that God is a different witness than Jesus and also the Holy Ghost is used by God (his power/Spirit remember) to bring us gifts. Now as far as I can establish, the relationship between the Word/Jesus and God has not altered in any other way from pre-existence to incarnation. There is no evidence whatsoever in scripture to indicate this. Please point out where I am wrong about this, if I indeed am wrong!
Assuming the pre-existing relationship of the Word to God is the same as the relationship that Jesus had with his father, with the exception of it becoming flesh and being made a little lower than the angels (remember man was created to be above the angels) and experiencing life as a human being, we must look at what Jesus revealed in the gospel in order to obtain a better understanding.
If we regard Jesus as one and the same as the Word then we must look at his relationship to God to see this better.
1) Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in him (spiritually by the Holy Spirit). 2) Jesus represents the Father. All his words and deeds are of the Father (God) not himself. 3) Jesus only does the will of his Father. He completely forsakes his own will. 4) The Father (God) is greater than the Son. 5) The Father expresses himself through the Son 6) Jesus does nothing of himself 7) God is Jesus's Father. The Father is God 8) God is the same Father and God to us as he is to Jesus 9) Jesus identifies the Father as the only true God 10) Jesus is the way, the truth and the life which leads to the Father (God).
There is much, much more, even in John's Gospel.
God himself testifies to the Word being his only begotten Son who serves him in every way. Hear ye him. In whom I am well pleased.
The foregoing touches on the "relationship" between the Word and God. Jesus is a separate being from God. However, God dwells in Jesus through his Holy Spirit. They are one in the Spirit. Completely. God expresses himself through Jesus. He speaks through Jesus. Jesus is therefore God's Word. In understanding this we can see how that the Word was with God and the Word was God. Jesus is a separate being (with), but his words were God's Word (God). Keep in mind too, that John may well have been referring to the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus, not the beginning of creation, when he began his Gospel with "In the beginning." I have covered this suggestion in an earlier post.
I would suggest that if you disagree with the above that you search out directly from scriptures, references which show that the Word had a different relationship to God the Father than what the incarnated Word (Jesus) had and present them here?
Keep in mind too that being a spiritual being does not necessarily make that being God!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 12:31:19 GMT -5
Nathan, most of these references (both posts) I have covered in previous posts on this subject. You never address my comments specifically but just keep repeating the same old references. There is no point in my trying to address these references again. I am thankful that my posts are appreciated by some onlookers. Yes a very high percentage of "Christians" do indeed believe as you do. I am reminded that when Jesus came saying he was the Messiah, very few listened to him. If he came back in the same way saying he was the Son of God, not God, then I believe very few would believe him.
You quite simply do not take cognisance of the words of Jesus.
Take this one that you keep repeating:
2) The apostle Thomas said to Jesus after the resurrection, "My Lord and My God" in John 20:24-29
The Apostle John very clearly and unmistakably spells out to us immediately after this reference that he wrote it so that we would believe that Jesus is "THE SON OF GOD" and that through his name we would have life. I wrote a long post explaining all this and stating exactly what Thomas meant, but you have no interest in searching out the scriptures for yourself. Yet you insist Thomas was claiming that Jesus is God. Sorry, but the devil has blinded you to what is written. This reference alone shows unsafe your position is. The same approach can be done to every other (and has been done) reference you have relied upon.
Regarding your second post. It has been stated time and again that God saved through Jesus. The invisible God, who no person has seen nor heard, does his works "through" Jesus. This is how people become confused thinking they are one and the same person. In the OT Jesus made "appearances" on behalf of God, representing him. This is what he did in his incarnate form on the Earth as well. If you see Jesus, you see God the Father. If you hear Jesus, you hear God the Father. Jesus is the vessel through whom God the Father expresses himself.
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Post by emy on Dec 19, 2014 14:05:29 GMT -5
Like I wrote to you MANY times, Ram... Jesus is BOTH the LORD God Christ and the son of man and the Son of God. More than 95% Christians believe this, Ram. If 90% of the f&w believe that women should always wear dresses, does that make it right and undebatable for the fellowship?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 14:43:18 GMT -5
Like I wrote to you MANY times, Ram... Jesus is BOTH the LORD God Christ and the son of man and the Son of God. More than 95% Christians believe this, Ram. I am not interested in what others say Nathan. I am only interested in what Jesus and his Father say. Both of them testify that Jesus is the Son of God. Nowhere is there testimony saying that Jesus IS God, Jesus IS God the Son, or Jesus is part of a Triune God. I prefer to abide in the words of Jesus. I take the Word's word for who the word is and what the Word's relationship to the Father is. It's all in John's gospel exactly what John meant. In chapter 20 verse 31 John writes clearly and significantly that these things are written that we would believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that we would have life through his name. Trinitarians are "blind" to that verse because it confounds their understanding of Thomas's words "My Lord and My God." As a member of the F&W's sect I would have thought that you would not be citing 95% of Chirstendom in your defence, rather the few who have their eyes opened. I have my differences with the sect, but their beliefs about who Jesus and God are, are in my view SPOT ON. The devil uses exactly the same tactics today as he did in the Garden of Eden. He challenges what God has said...alters it or adds to it....making it more enticing, more appealing, making you wiser, making it more desirous than the simple message of Jesus. The only way to safeguard yourself from this deceit is to abide in the words of Jesus. These set boundaries that cannot contain the Trinitarian, but they keep your eyes on the only true God and Jesus Christ (the Son of God) whom he sent. I am beginning to think that I am more 2x2 than you?
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Post by StAnne on Dec 19, 2014 14:45:07 GMT -5
Like I wrote to you MANY times, Ram... Jesus is BOTH the LORD God Christ and the son of man and the Son of God. More than 95% Christians believe this, Ram. If 90% of the f&w believe that women should always wear dresses, does that make it right and undebatable for the fellowship? The huge difference in your comparison emy, is that Christ revealed to his Apostles who He IS. Who He IS has been handed down as a faithful teaching in the - doctrine of the Apostles, doctrine of the Lord - in which we are to remain. Acts 2:42; Acts 5:28; Acts 17:19; Acts 13:12 and other passages. These teachings didn't just disappear - they had Christ's promise of the guiding of the Holy Spirit that truth would be taught always. They were taught; they are being taught. Jn 16:13; Jn 14:26; 1 Cor 2:10 Some of the exhortations ... Philippians 4:9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard ... ... Keep putting into practice all you learned and received from me--everything you heard from me and saw me doing. Then the God of peace will be with you. ... 2 Timothy 1:13 What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of ... ... With faith and love for Christ Jesus, consider what you heard me say to be the pattern of accurate teachings. ... Acts 1:4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave ... ... Jerusalem. Instead, wait for what the Father has promised, about which you heard me speak, ... gift. "This you have heard of," He said, "from me. ... 2 Timothy 2:2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence ... ... And entrust what you heard me say in the presence of many others as witnesses to faithful people who will be competent to teach others as well. ...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 14:52:55 GMT -5
God the Father revealed exactly who Jesus was on at least two occasions. One at the Baptism of Jesus...."This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Hear ye him." And to Peter who declared "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God."
These are sure and significant statements by God himself. They are not half truths or part truths. They are absolutely true!
Jesus never even once said or hinted at "I am God, or I am God the Son, or I am part of a Triune God." People who hear these statements do not hear them from the Spirit that Jesus sends. They are from another Spirit who wants to take the focus away from the Son of God, whom he was jealous of and desired his place for himself. Worship a false Jesus and you worship the devil.
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Post by StAnne on Dec 19, 2014 14:54:30 GMT -5
I don't know of any true Trinitarian who would deny that Jesus is the Son of God.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 14:57:52 GMT -5
I don't know of any true Trinitarian who would deny that Jesus is the Son of God. Every one of them does because the Son of God is the true and full reality as to whom Jesus is. Jesus is a human being ruling over the whole universe in his glorified body. He is not God. Trinitarians see Jesus as the Son of God and ALSO God the Son, part of a Triune God. It is a false "Son of God." If I ask you to quote exactly where the following is in the Bible....can you show me? It's just the understanding of man. It does not come from Jesus. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father
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Post by StAnne on Dec 19, 2014 15:01:39 GMT -5
I'm sticking with the faithful teachings of what we have heard as handed down. As we are scripturally exhorted to do.
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Post by emy on Dec 19, 2014 15:03:24 GMT -5
<snip> I am beginning to think that I am more 2x2 than you? GMTA
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Post by StAnne on Dec 19, 2014 15:18:24 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 15:44:19 GMT -5
GMTA hahaha I KNOW Ram, and you/Emy, Bert are among the 80% of 2x2s still feeding on the milk of the word instead on solid food/meat= Jesus is BOTH God and Man. You and most of the 2x2s are still feeding the milk of the word= Jesus is the son of God. That is VERY sad. You guys/gals should have passed that infant/babies stage by now. You need to grow up, be mature in Christ's doctrines. How can you help others to grow in Christ when you're still eating babies food. Mature Christians in other churches want to eat solid food, they have passed the babies food stage already. Now, you know why one of the reasons the 2x2s are dying a slow death, if they don't change in their belief of the Christ. Mature Christians from other churches recognize MOST of the 2x2s workers and friends are still feeding on babies foods. The 2x2s do have NOT understand or mature in their thinking of the Christ. The 2x2s is classified with the JW, Mormons as a cult group thinking on the Christ is NOT God. What does the Bible say about scoffers in the last days? Those who will not hear sound doctrine?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 15:45:53 GMT -5
God the Father revealed exactly who Jesus was on at least two occasions. One at the Baptism of Jesus...."This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. Hear ye him." And to Peter who declared "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God." These are sure and significant statements by God himself. They are not half truths or part truths. They are absolutely true! Jesus never even once said or hinted at "I am God, or I am God the Son, or I am part of a Triune God." People who hear these statements do not hear them from the Spirit that Jesus sends. They are from another Spirit who wants to take the focus away from the Son of God, whom he was jealous of and desired his place for himself. Worship a false Jesus and you worship the devil. Ram, did you forget the verses in Hebrews 1:8-12 Where God/the Father called the Son, "God and LORD/Yahweh". Here are Jesus own words... Jesus is the Lord God Almighty. Jesus said in Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 11:16-17 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and Worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
Jesus said in Rev. 21:6,7 He that sat on the throne said unto me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be MY Son.Nathan, do you know how many times I addressed these specific passages to you in the past? Unless you are prepared to listen, then I give up. I will address the first reference to show how much out of context your understanding is. When the pregnant Mary was visited by the angel she was told that the child in her womb would be called "Mighty God and Wise Counselor!" This was a future prophetic statement. When Jesus ascended to Heaven he received all power in Heaven and Earth from the Lord God almighty, his Father. Jesus was sat down at the right hand of God. He received his inheritance of the most powerful force, the Holy Spirit which he sends to us. By virtue of his position Jesus is called "Mighty God," because he is ruling over the whole Universe in full compliance with the Will of his Father and God. Jesus is not God. That is the Father. However he is running the show at his Father's side and by virtue of his position is called Mighty God. How could it be otherwise. In the OT there were many people in authority who were called gods by God by virtue of their position in authority. If you do not accept this then there is no point in addressing the other references. It is all about context.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 15:47:23 GMT -5
You didn't answer my question. Please try again. I want you to use your own thinking from the Bible, not seek out writings from others that satisfy your comfort zone.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 16:03:31 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 16:13:50 GMT -5
This thread remains unanswered, and thoroughly hacked. It is infested with everything from the trinity to should women wear dresses.
Perhaps four thousand years ago this book was written, either by Job or a secretary. The Redeemer verse is one of the earliest known. Here Job is NOT speaking of some Jewish king but one who would come to pay the price to redeem his people.
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Post by StAnne on Dec 19, 2014 16:47:42 GMT -5
You didn't answer my question. Please try again. I want you to use your own thinking from the Bible, not seek out writings from others that satisfy your comfort zone. Au contraire. You asked: " can you show me?" For you (and any other readers here) the doctrinal teachings as handed down - and as recorded in the Bible - that we are instructed to follow. One may do with them as he or she wishes. A comfort zone you say? Yes, it is much easier to disparage rather than acknowledge, hmmm? Since it's easily substantiated that the clauses of the Nicene Creed do indeed have scriptural place.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2014 16:51:05 GMT -5
This thread remains unanswered, and thoroughly hacked. It is infested with everything from the trinity to should women wear dresses.
Perhaps four thousand years ago this book was written, either by Job or a secretary. The Redeemer verse is one of the earliest known. Here Job is NOT speaking of some Jewish king but one who would come to pay the price to redeem his people. Ok, so who was that"one" who came to pay the price to redeem his people? JESUS, so there is the answer. Now we can all shut shop and go home. Have a blessed Christmas everyone; and remember the reason for the season.
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Post by emy on Dec 19, 2014 17:46:24 GMT -5
If 90% of the f&w believe that women should always wear dresses, does that make it right and undebatable for the fellowship? Wearing Dresses is totally different than doctrinal teachings! Wearing dresses are traditional of 2x2s teachings NOT world wide Christians doctrinal teaching. Jesus is Both God and Man is over 90% doctrinal teachings among world wide Christians.My question was concerning a 'policy' in the fellowship. Does 90% approval of the no pants tradition mean it's not debatable? Does 95% belief in a doctrine make it right? (I'm not too sure the approval rate is that high among theologists.)
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Post by emy on Dec 19, 2014 17:55:40 GMT -5
This thread remains unanswered, and thoroughly hacked. It is infested with everything from the trinity to should women wear dresses.
Perhaps four thousand years ago this book was written, either by Job or a secretary. The Redeemer verse is one of the earliest known. Here Job is NOT speaking of some Jewish king but one who would come to pay the price to redeem his people. Sorry for dragging dresses into it. Just the first thing I could think of which has some dissent among the fellowship like the Trinity has among theologians.
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 19, 2014 18:21:47 GMT -5
not to worry, emy, dresses are beautiful too, but dragging them like you mentioned, I am sure can be wearisome, and should not be a requirement.~!~!~~~ appreciate your input. Sad would be the day , when we all agreed on everything? I think most North Koreans would answer "politically" correct to most common questions asked of them, and it would appear they are in "unity" , but .....hmmmmmm Alvin
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 19, 2014 19:06:06 GMT -5
The fact that many christians don't agree on what / who God is, speaks volumes. There is supposed to be one Almighty God, but not only do some Christians have differing views, and name titles, so do other religeons, e.g. Muslims, Rastafarians- Allah, Jah, Jehovah etc. etc. True...however we often forget what Jesus himself spoke to his Apostles when he was speaking to them about the coming of the Comforter, etc.....Did he not speak also about that he and the Father are "one"? And we know that the Holy Spirit emanates out from the Father....so if there IS a Father who is God, and His only begotten Son who is also God, and the Holy Spirit who is also God....then we should also understand that there is ONLY one Almighty God, though He may be in three persons!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 19, 2014 19:09:35 GMT -5
Like I wrote to you MANY times, Ram... Jesus is BOTH the LORD God Christ and the son of man and the Son of God. More than 95% Christians believe this, Ram. If 90% of the f&w believe that women should always wear dresses, does that make it right and undebatable for the fellowship? Well, Emy, you've picked a strange simile haven't you? This idea that females in the 2x2s wear anything but dresses or skirts is still a far fetched idea, though admittedly some have pushed the borders of the unspoken rules, admittedly. So it would be easy to agree that IF 90% of the f&w believe that women should always wear dresses, that in the 2x2 minds that it is always right and is not debateable for the fellowship. Just one of those unwritten and unadmitted "rules". Hasn't been too many years that it was thusly so!
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