|
Post by speedy22 on Dec 17, 2014 4:25:25 GMT -5
Yes Job knew his Redeemer was to come...In Job 16:19 Job has declared his conviction that" his Witness is in heaven." In ver. 21 of the same chapter he longs to have an advocate to plead his cause with God. In Job 17:3 he calls upon God to be Surety for him. Therefore he has already recognized God as his Judge his Umpire his Advocate his Witness and his Surety in some cases by formal confession of the fact, in others by earnest longing after, and aspiration for, some one to act in that capacity." After all this, it is not taking a very long step in advance to see and acknowledge in God his "Redeemer." And that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth; rather, and that at the last he shall stand up over my dust. אַחַדון is not "one who comes after me;" but, if a noun, "the last one" as רִאשׁון is "the first one "(Isaiah 44:6); if intended adverbially, "at the last" - i.e, at the end of all things. "At the latter day" is not an improper translation. I can find no more outstanding example of a man in scripture who knew exactly who He was in God. His identity was in the knowledge that His Redeemer not only is ALIVE but that He would not only advocate for him - but He'd take His stand on earth. Taking His stand - doesn't mean a passive stance - it means as an advocate and a victor over the oppressor. Job was a righteous man because of the mighty faith he had which was imputed as righteousness even against the impossibilities of sin. I love that verse - Job 19:25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth"Its how we should see our own identity... As for me... Even though I suffer or die in the flesh - I KNOW that my Redeemer lives. The Redeemer, planned from the beginning of the world to redeem a lost world to a loving Father. The Father's love planned out and carried out. Herein is the whole purpose of the book of Job - to show God's character toward mankind is GOOD! The book of Job is the oldest book in the bible and it deals with a very present concern regarding the character of God... Even today people still ask - If God is good, why does bad stuff happen? Job knew not only who God is - but he also knew who he was - he identified himself as redeemed. He understood this adoption process wherein God would provide a way for us to cry Abba Father! He knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Redeemer would come, not just to live a life among men, but to return in all His Glory as the last at the last... Our advocate and our victor over death and the grave. Yes Job knew - he was a father himself, and he sacrificed daily to cover the sins (and the potential sins) of his sons. He knew God's plan of redemption involved paying a price so great that no enemy could withstand it. It was his identity that gave him the confidence to be a son of the Living God, and as an adopted son Job knew he had an inheritance that had been given to him by grace even though Word had not yet been made flesh at that time. The Word was still in the beginning and it came with all the authority and power that it has from the end to cover all mankind and redeem ALL of those who had their names in the book of life. Job 19:25 " As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth" As for me - meaning this is a very personal belief I know - meaning he didn't just "believe" but had some revelation my - meaning He belongs to me Redeemer - meaning one who redeems, to buy back lives - meaning He is alive now, not "he will live one day" at the last - meaning a long, long way into the future He will take his stand on the earth - meaning He is destined, he will be live amongst us. The Jews did not want, nor believe in a Messiah, as son of God, who offered Himself to redeem His people. Job has no interest in Jewish style earthly kings. So if this isn't the Christian Messiah, who is Job yearning for?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 4:59:07 GMT -5
your reading that wrong... Wally, we have been trying to tell Ram, that but some how he doesn't see it. Jesus was/is GOD/Man. No human being/man on earth can REDEEM us, unless He is God/man... And that person is Jesus/Yeshua who is BOTH God and Man. The ONLY God/Man Jesus/Yeshua sacrificial Lamb of God death on Calvary's Cross is acceptable offering before God the Father for humanity. Jesus is our Redeemer! NOT God the Father. We sin therefore death comes upon us. Jesus God/man stepped in our place of eternal death to REDEEM us from God the Father's wrath on mankind, who have trespassed against Him.Nathan you are missing the whole point. Jesus could do nothing of himself (his own words). The works that he did were the works of the Father. God provided the sacrifice in Jesus the unblemished Lamb of God. God the Father redeems us "THROUGH" his son Jesus. Contextually it is right to say that God redeems us. Contextually it is right to say that Jesus the Son of God redeems us. Contextually it is right to say that BOTH of them redeem us. Didn't Jesus say that no man comes to the Father but through me? Through a man sin came into the world and through a man we are reconciled to God. Your mind is so screwed up with thinking that Jesus is God you don't know what you are saying! ‘Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)
Simple language for simple people. Jesus was/is a man. Here is your God in the Old Testament. God is not a man nor a son of man (Numbers 23:19) "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?""For I am God, and not man" (Hosea 11:9) "I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city."
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 5:09:51 GMT -5
your reading that wrong... and don't you forget it either Ram... geez! Just another example of how the Bible can be interpreted any way you want it to be! Does no one see the irony? Do you interpret it any different to me Snow? Look at the intent and purpose in the writings. It's quite simple. It doesn't require great brain power or huge mental contortions if one can put aside all preconceived ideas and look for an honest answer. The lion of the tribe of Judah and the Root of David is/was A MAN!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 5:14:43 GMT -5
Bert, did you see my question to you?Thanks, Bert... Do you believe Jesus the Redeemer exists with a bodily form in the Old Testament? There were many spiritual beings in the Old Testament created by God. None of them was in actual fact God himself! That said, one of them became the god of this world!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 6:51:39 GMT -5
Nathan you are missing the whole point. Jesus could do nothing of himself (his own words). The works that he did were the works of the Father. God provided the sacrifice in Jesus the unblemished Lamb of God. God the Father redeems us "THROUGH" his son Jesus. Contextually it is right to say that God redeems us. Contextually it is right to say that Jesus the Son of God redeems us. Contextually it is right to say that BOTH of them redeem us. Didn't Jesus say that no man comes to the Father but through me? Through a man sin came into the world and through a man we are reconciled to God. Your mind is so screwed up with thinking that Jesus is God you don't know what you are saying! ‘Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)
Simple language for simple people. Jesus was/is a man. Here is your God in the Old Testament. God is not a man nor a son of man (Numbers 23:19) "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?""For I am God, and not man" (Hosea 11:9) "I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city." Who was God/Lord/Man appeared that ate and talked with Abraham and Sarah in Genesis chapters 17-19 ram?Nathan, I have answered these same questions many times in the past to you, but you just either don't read them or you just ignore them. Since the creation of man, Jesus has made appearances on this earth where He has manifested Himself as a spiritual representative of God as well as a physical represntative. In the period before His incarnation, (these were known as 'theophanies'). This word is taken from the Greek words, THEOS (God) and PHANEROO (appearance) – i.e. an appearance of God. Theophanies are manifestations of the Son of God prior to His incarnation where He would appear on assignment in His Father's Name, YHWH, to represent Him, in a form which was visible to man. In scripture He was referred to as “the Angel of YHWH”. No man has seen God himself and lived. God is an invisible God.
We have the account that He (Jesus) walked with Adam in the 'cool of the day' (Genesis 2 & 3:8); He appeared to Abraham as such also (Genesis 12;7; 17:1; 18:1); as well as to the other patriarchs (Genesis 26:2; 32:34; 35:9). He appeared to Moshe (Exodus 3:2); and led the children of Israel out of Egypt into the promised land (Exodus 13:21-22 ). He continued to guide the nation in the time of the Judges, prior to the monarchy, with various visitations to key figures at pivotal times – for Yehoshua's endorsement to conquer the land (Joshua 5:13-15); to encourage Gideon (Judges 6-7); for deliverance through Samson (Judges 13).
When spoken of as the “Angel of YHWH”, He was known as “Metatron”, to whom was given great reverence as He who taught them Torah and was the “rod” of YHWH and the High priest of the supernal, celestial Temple in the New Jerusalem (Soncino Zohar, Shemoth, Section 2, Page 159a; 169b & Bersh-h, Section 1, Page 27a) and as the “Memra” (Aramaic) or Davar (Hebrew) for the Word. This is the terminology which John gives Him in his gospel. He was also allegorized as “Wisdom” by Solomon in his proverbs (Ch.8).
Jesus is the servant of the invisible God. His public representative if you like. God both appears through and speaks through Jesus, his express image. The Father expresses himself through the Son. It is like a light bulb. The "invisible/hidden" electricity or power supply is the Father and is made visible through the Son as the light bulb. The Son is the Brightness of the Father's glory. The light reacts to the power supply. It can do nothing without it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 11:57:22 GMT -5
Nathan, I have answered these same questions many times in the past to you, but you just either don't read them or you just ignore them. Since the creation of man, Jesus has made appearances on this earth where He has manifested Himself as a spiritual representative of God as well as a physical represntative. In the period before His incarnation, (these were known as 'theophanies'). This word is taken from the Greek words, THEOS (God) and PHANEROO (appearance) – i.e. an appearance of God. Theophanies are manifestations of the Son of God prior to His incarnation where He would appear on assignment in His Father's Name, YHWH, to represent Him, in a form which was visible to man. In scripture He was referred to as “the Angel of YHWH”. No man has seen God himself and lived. God is an invisible God.
We have the account that He (Jesus) walked with Adam in the 'cool of the day' (Genesis 2 & 3:8); He appeared to Abraham as such also (Genesis 12;7; 17:1; 18:1); as well as to the other patriarchs (Genesis 26:2; 32:34; 35:9). He appeared to Moshe (Exodus 3:2); and led the children of Israel out of Egypt into the promised land (Exodus 13:21-22 ). He continued to guide the nation in the time of the Judges, prior to the monarchy, with various visitations to key figures at pivotal times – for Yehoshua's endorsement to conquer the land (Joshua 5:13-15); to encourage Gideon (Judges 6-7); for deliverance through Samson (Judges 13).
When spoken of as the “Angel of YHWH”, He was known as “Metatron”, to whom was given great reverence as He who taught them Torah and was the “rod” of YHWH and the High priest of the supernal, celestial Temple in the New Jerusalem (Soncino Zohar, Shemoth, Section 2, Page 159a; 169b & Bersh-h, Section 1, Page 27a) and as the “Memra” (Aramaic) or Davar (Hebrew) for the Word. This is the terminology which John gives Him in his gospel. He was also allegorized as “Wisdom” by Solomon in his proverbs (Ch.8).
Jesus is the servant of the invisible God. His public representative if you like. God both appears through and speaks through Jesus, his express image. The Father expresses himself through the Son. It is like a light bulb. The "invisible/hidden" electricity or power supply is the Father and is made visible through the Son as the light bulb. The Son is the Brightness of the Father's glory. The light reacts to the power supply. It can do nothing without it. Thanks, Ram... So, do you agree with John the apostle writing about Jesus in John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. What is your answer Yes, I agree with John's understanding or No, I don't agree with him?Nathan, yet again you ask the same question over and over again and don't appear to pay any attention to what is said. I have beat this drum so often with you that I feel like Corky Laing. Not a bad thing I may add! As you know, and has been pointed out many times to you before, "the Word was God" has several possible meanings from the ancient Greek, which includes "Godly," God like" or "was a god (but not God)." In order to fully understand what John meant we have to study his Gospel in full. He made it quite clear that the things he wrote were written so that we would believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and through believing in his name we would have eternal life. (John 20:31). John is not saying that Jesus is God one minute and that he is not God, or is the Son of God the next. In order to obtain the right context you must study the fullness of his Gospel for proper context and consistency. The same goes for his Epistles and the Book of Revelation. There is a consistency throughout them. "Was Godly" or "God like" or other similar term fits perfectly with the overall message that John is conveying. To answer your question specifically. I agree wholeheartedly with John's understanding, but I do not agree with YOUR understanding of what John's understanding is! John 20:31 "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
Nathan, please see the importance of the message that John is conveying. Give me one reference where John ever said/wrote something along the lines of " But these things are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is God (or God the Son, part of a Triune God etc.): and that believing ye might have life through his name!" Nathan, THINK, THINK, THINK! Don't reach for the copy and paste or the youtube....just THINK! Let the importance and fullness of John's message sink in. If you don't, the penny won't drop! Jesus is the only begotten human being Son of God. Period! In this lies the way, truth and life which leads to eternal life. Don't be waylaid like Eve in the Garden of Eden with the Devil's nice, enticing, apparently wise words which are designed to wean you away from the above full and meaningful true identity of Jesus.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 12:47:30 GMT -5
As a student of Greek since 1965, with numerous Greek manuscripts in my library, it was pointed out to me by excellent Greek instructors decades ago, that when people refer to Biblical Greek as Ancient Greek, what they have to say about it (whatever) should largely be taken with a grain of salt, as the saying goes.
Personally, I have found Tony Lane's writings on various early century people and their various heresies very educational. If there have been people clinging to, for instance, Arius' point of view and explanations, some perhaps not even aware that is what they are doing, why then, after attempting to help them fails, for me the simplest thing to do is ignore them. Arius continued to cling to the argument presented here after others tried to help him, even after a counsel of believers was formed to carefully examine his teachings.
Those teachings will likely ebb and rise right up until the Lord's return. He has dealt with them in the past, so why should He address them every time they arise since and even now? It is my conviction that people will believe what they will, especially as they leave the role of student in attempts to elevate themselves as "teachers." Surely James point about the dangers facing those who take such upon themselves, has been well proven.
Anyone curious about those early heresies that arose and had to be considered, and thoughtfully dealt with need only do a search on early Christian heresies, and learn for themselves. The great libraries in my earlier days were the only sources of such information in my day, requiring copious esearch and thoughtful study. Now, that information is available to everyone. Best wishes to all as they make their own study regecting the regurgitated intellectual vomit of others, from any source. Why plaguarize others teachings and works, if not to merely elevate one's own status somehow.
Plagiarizing consists of taking what another has written, passing it off as one's own work, composition without crediting the true authorship, even if slight rewording has occurred, does it not? What a few people in this forum seem to be unaware of is that portions of their text posted here can be copied into larger search engines, frequently discovering its true source, even when minor wording changes have been made. Interesting, no?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 13:36:42 GMT -5
No, Ram... I agree with your post "Since the creation of man, Jesus has made appearances on this earth where He has manifested Himself as a spiritual representative of God as well as a physical represntative. In the period before His incarnation, (these were known as 'theophanies'). This word is taken from the Greek words, THEOS (God) and PHANEROO (appearance) – i.e. an appearance of God. Theophanies are manifestations of the Son of God prior to His incarnation where He would appear on assignment in His Father's Name, YHWH, to represent Him, in a form which was visible to man. In scripture He was referred to as “the Angel of YHWH”. No man has seen God himself and lived. God is an invisible God. We have the account that He (Jesus) walked with Adam in the 'cool of the day' (Genesis 2 & 3:8); He appeared to Abraham as such also (Genesis 12;7; 17:1; 18:1); as well as to the other patriarchs (Genesis 26:2; 32:34; 35:9). He appeared to Moshe (Exodus 3:2); and led the children of Israel out of Egypt into the promised land (Exodus 13:21-22 ). He continued to guide the nation in the time of the Judges, prior to the monarchy, with various visitations to key figures at pivotal times – for Yehoshua's endorsement to conquer the land (Joshua 5:13-15); to encourage Gideon (Judges 6-7); for deliverance through Samson (Judges 13). When spoken of as the “Angel of YHWH”, He was known as “Metatron”, to whom was given great reverence as He who taught them Torah and was the “rod” of YHWH and the High priest of the supernal, celestial Temple in the New Jerusalem (Soncino Zohar, Shemoth, Section 2, Page 159a; 169b & Bersh-h, Section 1, Page 27a) and as the “Memra” (Aramaic) or Davar (Hebrew) for the Word. This is the terminology which John gives Him in his gospel. He was also allegorized as “Wisdom” by Solomon in his proverbs (Ch.8). But you don't accept my posts.John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jesus is God just like His heavenly Father. The word God comes in two forms singular and plural. God/Theos is singular: God the Father, God/Thoes Christ the LORD. God/Elohim is plural when both are speaking together. God/Elohim said, "Let us created man in OUR image and in OUR likeness." (Genesis 1:26)
Ram, you need to study the word Elohim! You know the word Theos already. Let us know what you can come up with the word Elohim. Nathan, this is yet another question which I have addressed for you at least several times in the past. Have you ever thought about reading what people say to you? I attach one reference of several that I have posted for you in the past, which shows your view to be very dicey at best. Now please read this. There's more, but really.....why should I bother? www.gci.org/God/Elohim2I agree with Dennis's remarks about Greek scholars. I have never studied ancient Greek and therefore I am at the mercy of those who claim to do so and base their beliefs and opinions on this. My recourse (safety net) is to study their claims about interpretations against the fullness of what the writer has said (translated into English - preferably KJB) or even against the whole of the Testaments, because it is often only by considering things as a whole that proper understanding and context becomes apparent.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 13:41:42 GMT -5
John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Nathan, what beginning do you think John was talking about?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 14:12:41 GMT -5
One of the points I was trying to make was that there is a huge difference in Ancient Greek and Biblical Greek.
Also that there is a huge difference between Arius' point of view, and that of what many (of whom I am one) accept as New Testament beliefs about our Lord. He (my Lord) was a Hebrew, even a "Jew" knowing full well if He accepted worship as God, not being God, He was worthy of death. Languages for those who have studied only their own seem to be that language is the only one spoken by God. Great importance then is placed upon making other languages conform to it. I remember the lessons well in linguistic life which opened my mind to this paradox. (One in particular being the time I used the word for sending like a package, instead that for one sent on a mission by another and the amused looks on the faces of these listening.)
There has been, and likely always will be an argument of Who is, or is not, "God." It can only be settled for each one in their own mind. For myself, during that first 5 Years after my excommunication from 2&2ism, it's friends and workers, and most of my own flesh and blood, I had to deal with whether there really is a God or not, and then the many questions arising about God. Wishing to avoid confrontations by those posting to such forums as this, seemingly who enjoy them, I will gladly share what I have conluded, and why, privately with any who ask.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 14:39:30 GMT -5
John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Nathan, what beginning do you think John was talking about? Before the Universe was formed by Christ the Lord God. Christ the LORD is Everlasting. He is Eternal as God the Father.I used to think that too Nathan (re what John meant by "in the beginning!"), for many years. Now I don't know. Put to one side the verse 3 (all things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.) and the whole of Chapter 1 of John's Gospel is about the "Beginning of the Gospel of Christ" NOT the beginning of creation. If you want a comparative study, read Chapter 1 of the same writer's 1st Epistle. This is John writing much the same thing. 1.That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.It is very interesting to do a study between these two chapters. It is clear from John's 1st Epistle that the "beginning" that he is referring to is "the beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ." Now to jump back to the Word made flesh. If we accept that the Word is indeed God (I do not have a problem with this provided it is seen in proper context), we must understand how this is. Jesus tells us in John 12:49 (recorded by the same writer John!). "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak."
We know that everything that Jesus spoke came from his God the Father. They were not his own words. Therefore in this sense the word(s) that Jesus spoke were indeed God (speaking). Therefore when God's Word became flesh, the word itself did not become the person Jesus, but Jesus was the flesh (person) through whom the Father expressed himself. We can now see that the Word in this context is indeed God, but is expressed through his only begotten Son Jesus. The Words (Word) that Jesus spoke were indeed God the Father's Word. They were not Jesus's words (by his own testimony). Jesus was the flesh (human being) through whom the Father spoke to us. We can make the mistake of identifying the Word (God's) with actually becoming Jesus himself, when Jesus testifies that this is not the case. He is merely the Father's spokesperson. Consider the 1st Chapter of Hebrews (although there are many other references to support this). 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
Do not confuse the Word with the person Jesus but rather identify it with his purpose. Jesus clearly tells us that he is NOT "the Word" itself but rather he speaks the Word, as commanded by God the Father.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 15:04:35 GMT -5
I used to think that too Nathan (re what John meant by "in the beginning!"), for many years. Now I don't know. Put to one side the verse 3 (all things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made.) and the whole of Chapter 1 of John's Gospel is about the "Beginning of the Gospel of Christ" NOT the beginning of creation. If you want a comparative study, read Chapter 1 of the same writer's 1st Epistle. This is John writing much the same thing. You were correct with Christ exists as God before He created the Universe in the beginning. The book of Hebrews explains about this VERY Clearly about Christ as God and LORD who created the heavens, and foundation of the earth. Christ is from Everlasting to Everlasting= Eternal.
Hebrews 1:8-12 But unto the Son he/God saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: they shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; and as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Nathan I DID NOT say that Christ existed as God before he created the Universe. If Christ did pre-exist then it was WITH God, not AS GOD! Read what people say. By the speed at which you respond it is clear you only half read what people write. I have covered Hebrews 1 : 8-12 umpteen times with you in the past but I am rather wearied with repeating myself. Instead of digressing, do you agree with Jesus....that he is NOT the Word itself but rather the obedient human vessel through whom God expresses himself?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 15:21:43 GMT -5
Nathan I DID NOT say that Christ existed as God before he created the Universe. If Christ did pre-exist then it was WITH God, not AS GOD! Read what people say. By the speed at which you respond it is clear you only half read what people write. I have covered Hebrews 1 : 8-12 umpteen times with you in the past but I am rather wearied with repeating myself. Instead of digressing, do you agree with Jesus....that he is NOT the Word itself but rather the obedient human vessel through whom God expresses himself? Let me clarify for you.... Christ existed in the Spirit/God and LORD/Yahweh... just like the God the Father of the Most High.Here's another reference to Jesus clearly stating that he is not the Word itself, but the conveyor of the Word. John 7:16 "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me."If Christ existed in spirit form before his incarnation (which is my belief), then this spirit was brought forth by God. It was not God himself, but his servant through which God expressed himself. As was shown in an earlier post, Christ was the "appearance of God" in the OT, but was not God himself. He made appearances for God as representation.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 17, 2014 15:23:30 GMT -5
The Father redeems us "through" the sacrifice of his only beloved Son. What is it about "through" that is so difficult for you to understand, Nathan? Jesus himself told us that the "works" that he did were not his own, but the Father working through him. This includes the Cross! No, ram... Personally, God the Father did NOT redeem us. God the Father had allowed the Son, who died on Calvary's Cross to be our Redeemer! If Jesus HAD NOT die on Calvary's Cross there would be NO Redeemer! for our sins.Revelation chapter 5:9-13 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and has Redeemed us to God by thy BLOOD, out of every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”Since it's impossible for some to understand that Jesus was with the Father before the world ever began as a separate person of the Godhead,(and please I'm not saying any more here) it's hard to understand just what part of Jesus would have prayed so hard with sweat like drops of blood before he knew it was just a matter of hours before he would be taken as a prisoner to be slain, though he was innocent of all charges and he faced his death because of the "envy" that the chief priest and others had against him. And I can tell you that "envy" in a relationship can do more to tear it down then anything else can and quicker as well. However, the very part of Jesus' mental anguish was more from a human point of view, which we need to remember he was 100 per cent man asa well as 100 per cent God... In Hebrews, I think it is that speaks about that Jesus "feared", but was made perfect through suffering. A 33 y/o body would not want to die that easy. His 33 y/o human brain likely told him that it didn't think it was necessary to put himself in the hands of his enemies that would seek his crucifixion. THIS is the reason for the sweat like blood prayer in the garden of Gethsemane. A worker mentioned one time some years ago, and I'll give him credit for noticing this one thing. Jesus' body had already been transfigured before the garden of Gethsemane's fearful prayers....so Jesus could have prayed that his Father would send angels down to help him to go to heaven....his body was already ready to go...he needed to prepare his mind and heart....his heart had been prepared during those years in the OT, so his mind had to be prepared during his time on earth and the biggest part of that preparation came that night in the Garden of Gethsemane! I worry about the issue of some not seeing that Jesus Christ is worthy of all praise and honor as well as about those who cannot keep in their minds that Jesus Christ is God the Father's inherent heir and it seems to me that if they both love one another so much as to do such plans of salvation etc, then the love for us can only be slightly less, perhaps!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 15:23:51 GMT -5
John 14:10 How often does John have to spell out what he meant by the Word?
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 15:28:25 GMT -5
John 12:50 "And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak."
Some boy this John. He makes sure we get his message! And they still don't believe him!
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 17, 2014 15:29:58 GMT -5
Not only that, only original thought allowed to be shared, bingo, 99.9 percent data space restored on tmb and around the world. Lots of blank space now. Nobody arguing that what I copied is better than yours. It wouldn't take very long, maybe as short as a few hundred years, and that original thought will again be copied and pasted and acceptked as new knowledge that highly educated people can appear as wise as the originals. Lol Alvin SOS, I think a lot of Nathan's scriptural quoting is by memory and NOT by copying! Often I've noted how he inverts a sentence like Vietnamese students I've known have done or perhaps uses a word or phrase that is more akin to that then the scriptures would say being copied. I strongly suspect Nathan is likely close to a walking bible IF he were ever put into a situation where he would not have a bible to read at hand!
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 17, 2014 15:43:46 GMT -5
Let me clarify for you.... Christ existed in the Spirit/God and LORD/Yahweh... just like the God the Father of the Most High. Here's another reference to Jesus clearly stating that he is not the Word itself, but the conveyor of the Word. John 7:16 "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me."If Christ existed in spirit form before his incarnation (which is my belief), then this spirit was brought forth by God. It was not God himself, but his servant through which God expressed himself. As was shown in an earlier post, Christ was the "appearance of God" in the OT, but was not God himself. He made appearances for God as representation. Do you not believe that Jesus Christ is the heir inherent to the heavenly Father? If you do, then it would not be to call Jesus God's "servant"....Jesus taught his Apostles the difference between servant and heir........Jesus came to the earth and behaved as a "servant" but that did not make him the Father's servant....it made him humble.....he definitely spoke to his Apostles that yes, he was their master, but had he not served as a servant to them? He told several stories about what happened when the owner of the vineyard let the vineyard out to men to tend to the harvesting and care of the profit of the vineyard and he sent some of his own servants to obtain a portion of the harvest and the vineyard keepers treated them all horribly and even killed some. This went on for a period of time, so then the owner of the vineyard finally said he'd send his heir to the vineyard keepers and surely they would respect his heir and give the heir a portion of the harvest and profit and let him come back to the owner. But NO...it wasn't that way at all....the keepers got the big head and ended up killing the heir....so what happens? The owner came and destroyed those keepers and let his vineyard out to others who showed more faith in doing what should be done! It definitely says in John's Gospel that the Word came down and took flesh upon him.......this was that holy thing that was found in Mary's uterus......you bet. You see, people do not understand about the Father's only begotten Son.........they can't figure this out for themselves. Let's look at it like this. What was one thing God the Father did? He spoke His Word, didn't He? As God the Father is a Spirit, it would seem reasonable to believe that speaking would be all that a Spirit could beget, or produce from themselves. So that is what Jesus is, He is God's the Father's ONLY begotten Son or God's Word before the world every became and during the OT scripture.....then when the Children of Israel ruined all the law of Moses by disobedience and offering to God animals that were defective, that's when God the Father decided and spoke with His only begotten Son that it was time for him to go to the earth and open the gospel of salvation up to the Gentile nations....again Jesus had explained to the Samaritan woman at the well that salvation was of the CoG!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 16:07:38 GMT -5
Here's another reference to Jesus clearly stating that he is not the Word itself, but the conveyor of the Word. John 7:16 "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me."If Christ existed in spirit form before his incarnation (which is my belief), then this spirit was brought forth by God. It was not God himself, but his servant through which God expressed himself. As was shown in an earlier post, Christ was the "appearance of God" in the OT, but was not God himself. He made appearances for God as representation. Do you not believe that Jesus Christ is the heir inherent to the heavenly Father? If you do, then it would not be to call Jesus God's "servant"....Jesus taught his Apostles the difference between servant and heir........Jesus came to the earth and behaved as a "servant" but that did not make him the Father's servant....it made him humble.....he definitely spoke to his Apostles that yes, he was their master, but had he not served as a servant to them? He told several stories about what happened when the owner of the vineyard let the vineyard out to men to tend to the harvesting and care of the profit of the vineyard and he sent some of his own servants to obtain a portion of the harvest and the vineyard keepers treated them all horribly and even killed some. This went on for a period of time, so then the owner of the vineyard finally said he'd send his heir to the vineyard keepers and surely they would respect his heir and give the heir a portion of the harvest and profit and let him come back to the owner. But NO...it wasn't that way at all....the keepers got the big head and ended up killing the heir....so what happens? The owner came and destroyed those keepers and let his vineyard out to others who showed more faith in doing what should be done! It definitely says in John's Gospel that the Word came down and took flesh upon him.......this was that holy thing that was found in Mary's uterus......you bet. You see, people do not understand about the Father's only begotten Son.........they can't figure this out for themselves. Let's look at it like this. What was one thing God the Father did? He spoke His Word, didn't He? As God the Father is a Spirit, it would seem reasonable to believe that speaking would be all that a Spirit could beget, or produce from themselves. So that is what Jesus is, He is God's the Father's ONLY begotten Son or God's Word before the world every became and during the OT scripture.....then when the Children of Israel ruined all the law of Moses by disobedience and offering to God animals that were defective, that's when God the Father decided and spoke with His only begotten Son that it was time for him to go to the earth and open the gospel of salvation up to the Gentile nations....again Jesus had explained to the Samaritan woman at the well that salvation was of the CoG! Regarding Jesus being a servant. That is partly how he obtained his inheritance. Just like you and me. We are called into God's service. Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."Of course the Word of God became flesh. It is how you understand that transformation and how it was expressed. Jesus was very clear on this. Quite a few times in fact. Okay Shaz....How did God the Father speak? By himself? Through another? Through others? Hebrews 1 gives us a big clue.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 18:27:28 GMT -5
As a student of Greek since 1965, with numerous Greek manuscripts in my library, it was pointed out to me by excellent Greek instructors decades ago, that when people refer to Biblical Greek as Ancient Greek, what they have to say about it (whatever) should largely be taken with a grain of salt, as the saying goes. Personally, I have found Tony Lane's writings on various early century people and their various heresies very educational. If there have been people clinging to, for instance, Arius' point of view and explanations, some perhaps not even aware that is what they are doing, why then, after attempting to help them fails, for me the simplest thing to do is ignore them. Arius continued to cling to the argument presented here after others tried to help him, even after a counsel of believers was formed to carefully examine his teachings. Those teachings will likely ebb and rise right up until the Lord's return. He has dealt with them in the past, so why should He address them every time they arise since and even now? It is my conviction that people will believe what they will, especially as they leave the role of student in attempts to elevate themselves as "teachers." Surely James point about the dangers facing those who take such upon themselves, has been well proven. Anyone curious about those early heresies that arose and had to be considered, and thoughtfully dealt with need only do a search on early Christian heresies, and learn for themselves. The great libraries in my earlier days were the only sources of such information in my day, requiring copious esearch and thoughtful study. Now, that information is available to everyone. Best wishes to all as they make their own study regecting the regurgitated intellectual vomit of others, from any source. Why plaguarize others teachings and works, if not to merely elevate one's own status somehow. Plagiarizing consists of taking what another has written, passing it off as one's own work, composition without crediting the true authorship, even if slight rewording has occurred, does it not? What a few people in this forum seem to be unaware of is that portions of their text posted here can be copied into larger search engines, frequently discovering its true source, even when minor wording changes have been made. Interesting, no? Dennis, hi You have't told us what these "heresies" are. Are you referring to Job?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 18:45:32 GMT -5
(Wan smile.) Nope, I surely haven't. Thought readers are fully able to type "early Christian heresies" into their own search lines, that way any arguments about them must be directed at others and not me, as I neither defend any of them nor add anything that I have not already expressed over and over in this forum and others over the past 19 or so years. What is ignored will continue to be ignored, det vet jag.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 18, 2014 10:23:15 GMT -5
Do you not believe that Jesus Christ is the heir inherent to the heavenly Father? If you do, then it would not be to call Jesus God's "servant"....Jesus taught his Apostles the difference between servant and heir........Jesus came to the earth and behaved as a "servant" but that did not make him the Father's servant....it made him humble.....he definitely spoke to his Apostles that yes, he was their master, but had he not served as a servant to them? He told several stories about what happened when the owner of the vineyard let the vineyard out to men to tend to the harvesting and care of the profit of the vineyard and he sent some of his own servants to obtain a portion of the harvest and the vineyard keepers treated them all horribly and even killed some. This went on for a period of time, so then the owner of the vineyard finally said he'd send his heir to the vineyard keepers and surely they would respect his heir and give the heir a portion of the harvest and profit and let him come back to the owner. But NO...it wasn't that way at all....the keepers got the big head and ended up killing the heir....so what happens? The owner came and destroyed those keepers and let his vineyard out to others who showed more faith in doing what should be done! It definitely says in John's Gospel that the Word came down and took flesh upon him.......this was that holy thing that was found in Mary's uterus......you bet. You see, people do not understand about the Father's only begotten Son.........they can't figure this out for themselves. Let's look at it like this. What was one thing God the Father did? He spoke His Word, didn't He? As God the Father is a Spirit, it would seem reasonable to believe that speaking would be all that a Spirit could beget, or produce from themselves. So that is what Jesus is, He is God's the Father's ONLY begotten Son or God's Word before the world every became and during the OT scripture.....then when the Children of Israel ruined all the law of Moses by disobedience and offering to God animals that were defective, that's when God the Father decided and spoke with His only begotten Son that it was time for him to go to the earth and open the gospel of salvation up to the Gentile nations....again Jesus had explained to the Samaritan woman at the well that salvation was of the CoG! Regarding Jesus being a servant. That is partly how he obtained his inheritance. Just like you and me. We are called into God's service. Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."Of course the Word of God became flesh. It is how you understand that transformation and how it was expressed. Jesus was very clear on this. Quite a few times in fact. Okay Shaz....How did God the Father speak? By himself? Through another? Through others? Hebrews 1 gives us a big clue. I think the bible says in different places as you're speaking about in Heb. 1 "In these latter times(or some such measured times) God has spoken...." That doesn't speak to what I was trying to convey at all. I was speaking to how God the Father as a "Spirit" begat His only begotten Son......This process of "speaking" His Word was BEFORE the world ever became! So there would have been NO humans to have made God want to speak that special begetting Word to......Jesus prayed about that in John 17, didn't he? Didn't he pray to the Father that he would be returned to the "glory that he had with the Father 'before the world every became'?" There was a period of time that there seemed to be only the Father, His only begotten Son the Word and the Holy Spirit.....then the Father's desire to use His excellent mind and blueprints that only He would have known about, had His Word create the world and all that is in it, even mankind! Sometimes I despair that I cannot say to you or someone else what I know so well within myself and then the Holy Spirit perhaps gives me that thump on my noggin to remind me that perhaps Nathan and Stanne felt the same with me many times! Thankfully they did not give up on me......And yet I do have some different revelations then either one of them do and they seem to share that privilege....and that's the favor a seeking soul receives from our God and Saviour!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 10:45:04 GMT -5
Regarding Jesus being a servant. That is partly how he obtained his inheritance. Just like you and me. We are called into God's service. Matthew 20:28 "Just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."Of course the Word of God became flesh. It is how you understand that transformation and how it was expressed. Jesus was very clear on this. Quite a few times in fact. Okay Shaz....How did God the Father speak? By himself? Through another? Through others? Hebrews 1 gives us a big clue. I think the bible says in different places as you're speaking about in Heb. 1 "In these latter times(or some such measured times) God has spoken...." That doesn't speak to what I was trying to convey at all. I was speaking to how God the Father as a "Spirit" begat His only begotten Son......This process of "speaking" His Word was BEFORE the world ever became! So there would have been NO humans to have made God want to speak that special begetting Word to......Jesus prayed about that in John 17, didn't he? Didn't he pray to the Father that he would be returned to the "glory that he had with the Father 'before the world every became'?" There was a period of time that there seemed to be only the Father, His only begotten Son the Word and the Holy Spirit.....then the Father's desire to use His excellent mind and blueprints that only He would have known about, had His Word create the world and all that is in it, even mankind! Sometimes I despair that I cannot say to you or someone else what I know so well within myself and then the Holy Spirit perhaps gives me that thump on my noggin to remind me that perhaps Nathan and Stanne felt the same with me many times! Thankfully they did not give up on me......And yet I do have some different revelations then either one of them do and they seem to share that privilege....and that's the favor a seeking soul receives from our God and Saviour! I am not sure what you are getting at Shaz, but the way I understand things is that God is the Father. Jesus is the Son of God and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit or power of the invisible God (the Father). Jesus was brought forth by the Father who is the invisible God who does everything through his Son or servant, by his own power. i.e. the Holy Spirit. Before his incarnation Jesus made appearances on behalf of God, representing God, through the Father's power. All things are of God the Father, through Jesus Christ, by the Father's Spirit or power. The act of creation was of God, through the Word, by the Spirit of God. Jesus was the means through which the Father spoke his word. It is and always was the Father's word, but through Jesus, just as in the New Testament. Jesus spoke the Word of God, not his own words. He was/is the vessel through whom the words are channeled. The Father gives his Word for his servant to speak.
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 18, 2014 10:48:22 GMT -5
Ram, still...I'm not getting that you understand that Jesus is "that Word" of God! He isn't just a servant to speak it, HE IS that Word!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 11:11:59 GMT -5
Romans 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 11:14:41 GMT -5
Ram, still...I'm not getting that you understand that Jesus is "that Word" of God! He isn't just a servant to speak it, HE IS that Word! Shaz, please quote from the Bible exactly where Jesus is the personage (only) of the Word. The Word is God's Word, that of the Father. Jesus himself repeatedly tells us that his words are not his own, but are the Father's. He only speaks as he is commanded. Go by what scripture actually says. Listen to Jesus. Do you believe that Jesus came to reveal the Father? Do you believe he spoke the Father's Word. not his own? Understand that the Word came in the Flesh. It was the Father's Word coming from the Son. It was not the Son's Word at all. The Son spoke the Father's Word. The Word became flesh in the Son. Jesus tells us the The Father is in him and he is in the Father. Two persons! The Son, completely subservient to the Father and speaking whatever the Father commands him to say. The Father's Word came in the flesh of the Son. Jesus could not have been clearer about this. Jesus tells us all truth about himself and the Father. The Word was the Father's Word which Jesus the human being spoke. We are told this time and again by Jesus "in John's gospel!" You need to see the whole thing in the context of John's Gospel. The Word is really "two persons," i.e. the Father and the Son. It is the Father's message delivered through the Son. Anyone who saw the true Jesus, saw two persons, i.e. the Son of God and God the Father who dwelt in him. "....and the Word was with God, and the Word was God!" Remember the Word was with God as well as was God. Two in one!
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 18, 2014 15:26:39 GMT -5
Ram, still...I'm not getting that you understand that Jesus is "that Word" of God! He isn't just a servant to speak it, HE IS that Word! Shaz, please quote from the Bible exactly where Jesus is the personage (only) of the Word. The Word is God's Word, that of the Father. Jesus himself repeatedly tells us that his words are not his own, but are the Father's. He only speaks as he is commanded. Go by what scripture actually says. Listen to Jesus. Do you believe that Jesus came to reveal the Father? Do you believe he spoke the Father's Word. not his own? Understand that the Word came in the Flesh. It was the Father's Word coming from the Son. It was not the Son's Word at all. The Son spoke the Father's Word. The Word became flesh in the Son. Jesus tells us the The Father is in him and he is in the Father. Two persons! The Son, completely subservient to the Father and speaking whatever the Father commands him to say. The Father's Word came in the flesh of the Son. Jesus could not have been clearer about this. Jesus tells us all truth about himself and the Father. The Word was the Father's Word which Jesus the human being spoke. We are told this time and again by Jesus "in John's gospel!" You need to see the whole thing in the context of John's Gospel. The Word is really "two persons," i.e. the Father and the Son. It is the Father's message delivered through the Son. Anyone who saw the true Jesus, saw two persons, i.e. the Son of God and God the Father who dwelt in him. "....and the Word was with God, and the Word was God!" Remember the Word was with God as well as was God. Two in one! Yet God the Father never came down and took flesh upon Himself! Read all of John one and separate who is the Father and who is the Word primarily and who the Word is when he takes on flesh! He is called "that holy thing" when the archangel tells Mary about this divine child she is to bear........John 1 specifically states that the Word came down and took flesh upon him....this is the Son of God, and he was God and he was with God! If you cannot understand that, maybe you can uinderstand this? Do you not know that the "Word of God" was crucified? Did you not understand that the children of Israel had refused to "listen to God's Word" or accept Jesus as the prophet who he was plus being the Messiah, the Son of God who had been the Word of God since before the earth became? That's correct, the Word of God was crucified on that horrible morning on Calvary's mount! pushed by the chief Priests and Pharisees because of their envy and fear that this Word of God would take all their followers away from them. Pilate knew why they were demanding him to crucify the Lord.....for "envy"! When there is envy, no one's word will live....this is true regardless of who is where...isn't it?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2014 15:45:28 GMT -5
Shaz, please quote from the Bible exactly where Jesus is the personage (only) of the Word. The Word is God's Word, that of the Father. Jesus himself repeatedly tells us that his words are not his own, but are the Father's. He only speaks as he is commanded. Go by what scripture actually says. Listen to Jesus. Do you believe that Jesus came to reveal the Father? Do you believe he spoke the Father's Word. not his own? Understand that the Word came in the Flesh. It was the Father's Word coming from the Son. It was not the Son's Word at all. The Son spoke the Father's Word. The Word became flesh in the Son. Jesus tells us the The Father is in him and he is in the Father. Two persons! The Son, completely subservient to the Father and speaking whatever the Father commands him to say. The Father's Word came in the flesh of the Son. Jesus could not have been clearer about this. Jesus tells us all truth about himself and the Father. The Word was the Father's Word which Jesus the human being spoke. We are told this time and again by Jesus "in John's gospel!" You need to see the whole thing in the context of John's Gospel. The Word is really "two persons," i.e. the Father and the Son. It is the Father's message delivered through the Son. Anyone who saw the true Jesus, saw two persons, i.e. the Son of God and God the Father who dwelt in him. "....and the Word was with God, and the Word was God!" Remember the Word was with God as well as was God. Two in one! Yet God the Father never came down and took flesh upon Himself! Yet the Father abides in the flesh, the human being Son, Jesus Christ! The Father is in the Son! Of course this is done by his power, the Holy Spirit.
Read all of John one and separate who is the Father and who is the Word primarily and who the Word is when he takes on flesh! Better still. Read the whole of John's Gospel to see everything in its right context! He is called "that holy thing" when the archangel tells Mary about this divine child she is to bear........John 1 specifically states that the Word came down and took flesh upon him....this is the Son of God, and he was God and he was with God! What does the text actually say? "Holy" and "Divine" are used differently by theologians. You will search in vein to find the word "divine" in these passages! We know the "Word" became flesh (human being). Instead of putting mans' interpretation on what the Word is, why not study John's Gospel to see what the human being "Word" said who he was, along with the relationship to the Father. After all, The Word was "full of truth" and grace.If you cannot understand that, maybe you can uinderstand this? Do you not know that the "Word of God" was crucified? Did you not understand that the children of Israel had refused to "listen to God's Word" or accept Jesus as the prophet who he was plus being the Messiah, the Son of God who had been the Word of God since before the earth became? Jesus is described as the Word of God. This is not a reference to his own Word or personage, but that of the Father's Word whom he expresses. Jesus is the voice of God. Being the Word of God means that Jesus is God's message, or conveys God's Word. It's all there in the Gospel of John. You just have to search it out for yourself.
That's correct, the Word of God was crucified on that horrible morning on Calvary's mount! pushed by the chief Priests and Pharisees because of their envy and fear that this Word of God would take all their followers away from them. I seem to recollect the sign they hung over Jesus read "Son of God," NOT "Word of God?" Can you correct me with chapter and verses to support your information?
Pilate knew why they were demanding him to crucify the Lord.....for "envy"! When there is envy, no one's word will live....this is true regardless of who is where...isn't it? I don't think it was because he claimed to be the Word of God, but rather the Son of God? Again, if I am mistaken, please point me in the direction of the appropriate references.In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (separate), and the Word was God (is God). Although this is one interpretation, it fits in precisely with the rest of John's Gospel. You cannot separate the personage of Jesus from God's Word, because the Word is expressed through Jesus. But from this you can understand how the Word (as in Jesus) was a separate person from God and was also God (the Word itself).
|
|