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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2014 16:45:41 GMT -5
Job 19:25 "As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth"
As for me - meaning this is a very personal belief I know - meaning he didn't just "believe" but had some revelation my - meaning He belongs to me Redeemer - meaning one who redeems, to buy back lives - meaning He is alive now, not "he will live one day" at the last - meaning a long, long way into the future He will take his stand on the earth - meaning He is destined, he will be live amongst us.
The Jews did not want, nor believe in a Messiah, as son of God, who offered Himself to redeem His people. Job has no interest in Jewish style earthly kings. So if this isn't the Christian Messiah, who is Job yearning for?
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Post by StAnne on Dec 15, 2014 17:53:56 GMT -5
Job 19:25 " As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth" ... The Jews did not want, nor believe in a Messiah, as son of God, who offered Himself to redeem His people. Job has no interest in Jewish style earthly kings. So if this isn't the Christian Messiah, who is Job yearning for? Job recognized his Redeemer as *God. As Christians confess Christ to be - God in the flesh - as Job seemed to sense in some manner. * 25 As for me, I know that my vindicator lives,* and that he will at last stand forth upon the dust.g 26 This will happen when my skin has been stripped off, and from my flesh I will see God: 27 I will see for myself, my own eyes, not another’s, will behold him: my inmost being is consumed with longing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2014 17:59:41 GMT -5
This question is a valid one to my mind. I believe old Job and I have had much in common, including sharing the same belief in the same "redeemer." Many believe, and I am one, that this text of Job is likely the oldest one found in the entire Bible. Where did this and his concept of a "redeemer" even originate at such an early date? This was long before the "Jewish Meshiach" was even in the picture or the concept of a redeemer was recorded in the belief structures of any group, if what I have learned is correct.
But then, I am also a strong and firm believer in a "first cause" which is simply dismissed by many without such belief. Years ago I was considered "too young" to know such things, sigh. Now it is a matter of being "too old" to know what "youngens" so much more intelligent believe.
Just aware the other day that it was over 55 years ago that I first flew solo, and over 65 years ago that I thought of doing so for the first time, and I can remember that childhood imagination clearly even yet. Remember being told when expressing such a desire publicly for the first time, "...that is the most crazy fool idea you have come up with yet...!" Well, perhaps it was, however, it came to pass. So it is with many things in life, stupid, crazy, foolish to some, yet very real to those like Job of so long ago.
In one place, it tells of Enoch seventh from Adam talking about the Lord coming with tens of thousands of His saints. Certainly not how He came the first time, so that man must have been referring to the Lord's second coming. Ah, yes, what a stupid crazy fool thing for him to have come up with so very long ago, eh, what?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 15, 2014 19:01:52 GMT -5
There have been such "phrases" in the OT that have jumped out at me in recent times....phrases I know I had read and reread over the past half century at least! Just reminded me of what God told Ezekiel in Chapter 14, verse 14; "Though these three men; Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord God"
Kind of made me feel sorry for Ezekiel at that point!
Also as Dennis has mentioned God's own walking buddy "Enoch".....I have often wished and have actually prayed that I could be like Enoch...and that being that I could walk with God and that God would just take me and people would know that for I was not. But then I thought about all the missing persons in the world due to nefarious acts of other persons, and how that would mess up the message that "God took me"....they'd spend an untold amount of time looking around for me and finding me not, then figure I'd been killed and buried in some undisclosed place by some mad hatter criminal!
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Post by Lee on Dec 16, 2014 2:30:10 GMT -5
All I know is that I like that song "My redeemer lives".
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 12:41:57 GMT -5
Isaiah 9:6 Explained The Mighty God & Eternal Father By Craig Bluemel Isaiah 9:6-7 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 9:7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. NKJV This prophecy has been used by the Christian church as a supposed proof text to affirm the deity of Jesus Christ as, “the Mighty God,” and as the, “Eternal Father.” Nothing is further from the truth. The prophet Isaiah utters these words in Isaiah 9:6-7 as from Yahweh. The year in about 722 BC as the Northern kingdom of Israel (aka Samaria) is under judgment by the Almighty for its wickedness and false prophets. Also, Isaiah chapters seven and eight chronicle prophetic words uttered with regard to the evil alliance formed between Rezin, king of Syria and Pekah, king of Israel, designed to topple Ahaz, king of Judah by laying siege to Jerusalem, harassing its inhabitants, dividing the spoils taken from there, and putting Ahaz to death. For this treachery and more Yahweh Himself has come against Israel. There is also an application of both deliverance and divine judgment upon the southern kingdom of Judah that had also forsaken the way of Yahweh and was soon to be taken captive into Babylon after years of being besieged by the Assyrians and Syrians and other heathen nations for their ungodly ways and frequent backslidings. In Isaiah 9:1 the prophet speaks of the former times Yahweh delivered Judah (i.e. – the house of David) and brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and Naphtali by permitting them first to come under the direct yoke of Assyria. (See 2 Kings 15:29). Perhaps as a beacon of hope in the extreme darkness of the hour they were facing, Isaiah’s prophecy in chapter nine is of the latter time (in the future) when God will make the way of His people glorious, by the way of the sea, etc. The emphasis here is clearly messianic, because God fulfilled this prophecy when He sent his Son Jesus to live in Galilee and carry on his principal ministry there (See Matthew 4:13-17). Isaiah 9:3-5 is a part of the messianic hope when God’s spiritual nation will be “multiplied” (Isaiah 9:3) by the addition of the Gentile church, which, in the coming age, would unite with Jewish Christians to carry out Christ's Great Commission and bring in the harvest of the redeemed from all the earth. In this light compare what Jesus said about the joy of the reapers in John 4:36ff. In the time to come, all the heathen enemies and persecutors of God's people will be utterly crushed as in the days when the Midianite host was defeated by Gideon long ago. In 9:5 every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire refers to the complete destruction of all weapons of oppression - both in the temporal judgments of the fall of empires and perhaps those in the Armageddon of the 'last days.' This historical background is the preface for Isaiah 9:6, a messianic prophecy that is akin to that seen earlier when Isaiah prophesied to the “house of David” (Judah) concerning the future “sign” that Messiah would be born to a virgin. The difference between the two prophecies is that Isaiah 9:6 specifies the actual roles of the coming Messiah, and this will be the primary body of this particular study. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Isaiah’s portrayal is by inspiration from Yahweh of a man that will rule God's kingdom with God's authority. The Christian church wrongly teaches this is Jesus as a person of two distinct natures - God and Man. This is very confusing because God’s people are looking for a savior that is half God and half man and they are being told to walk and speak and behave as Jesus did. How can a Christian man or woman live the life of Jesus if he is in fact, “God?” To prove the error of this thinking, the context describes him as, “a child is born,” and again as, “a son is given.” Both of these terms very clearly describe Jesus as a MAN and NOT as deity. If taken literally at face value, the Mighty God of Isaiah 9:6 is a child born. The Eternal Father then becomes a “son given.” Given by whom? Another deity? If God is born who gave birth to God? This logic is why the Roman Catholic Church refers to Mary as, “the Mother of God.” Christian theologians object to her being called the mother of God, yet they insist Jesus is half man and half God. The following breakdown of the Hebrew words translated in Isaiah 9:6 are much better description of Jesus’ messianic role as a MAN sent by God, born of a woman, and made under the Law, given to save his own Jewish people at the proper time. The Hebrew word for a son, “given,” is nitan (or nathan; OT: 5414) and in the Niphal perfect it means, “to be bestowed or provided,” showing Yahweh’s provision for His people. There is another meaning applicable to this word nitan, which in the Niphal perfect means, “to be set, to be put, to be made, or to be inflicted.” Only the context determines which of these definitions is best suited. I believe it is a combination of these two meanings, so the text might read, “unto us a son is bestowed and set in place.” The reason for this is to show Jesus as, “bestowed,” by the Father God as a gift to Judah and Israel first and in the totality, spiritual Judah and spiritual Israel. Jesus will be, “set in place,” shows his role and function as the man whom God has appointed and thru whom he (God) will judge the world in righteousness, as stated in Acts 17:30-31 (below): Acts 17:30-31 God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead. " NAS This verse shows a day in which Jesus as a MAN will be appointed and set in place to judge the world. This coincides with the tenor of Isaiah 9:6-7, particularly the phrases, “and the government shall be upon his shoulder… Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, to order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever.” The phrase, “…and his name shall be called,” characterizes the nature of the relationship the Messiah has with his people, and how they call upon him for various reasons and functions. However, since there are three different possible meanings in the Qal imperfect, each noun that relates to a certain meaning. The Hebrew word translated as, “called,” is qara' OT: 7121; it is defined as follows: 1. To call unto, to cry (for help), to call (with the name of God) 2. To summon, to invite, to call for, to call and commission, to appoint, to call and to endow 3. To proclaim To illustrate the various applications, Jesus is called or cried out to for help as the counselor, or he is appointed (by God) as the prince of peace, or called upon by using the name of God, seeing that Yahweh chose to give him the name Jesus, which means literally, “Yah saves.” This is not calling to Jesus as God, but calling upon God thru the name of Jesus as advocate and mediator between God and man (2 Timothy 2:5). The meaning of item 3, “to proclaim,” finds a great deal of application in the NT with the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ by the church. Next the primary words used in Isaiah 9:6 will be defined and applications given for each word in the New Testament. DEFINING WORDS & APPLICATIONS IN ISAIAH 9:6
WONDERFUL COUNSELOR WONDERFUL = The Hebrew word for wonderful is a noun pele' (OT: 6382) meaning literally, “a miracle, a wonder, a marvel.” It has several applications, such as: 1) Something extraordinary, a thing hard to understand thing 2) A wonder (used of God's acts of judgment and redemption) This word pele’ has improperly been used as an adjective to modify the Hebrew word ya`ats translated as, “Counselor” in Isaiah 9:6. This noun pele' derived from a root word pala' OT: 6381 meaning to separate or to distinguish to be marvelous, to be wonderful, to be surpassing, to be extraordinary, to separate by distinguishing action.[1] The primary definition as pertaining to Jesus in his Messianic role would be, “wondrous Redeemer separated (unto God) by (his) distinguishing act of redemption.” COUNSELOR = The Hebrew word for ya`ats (OT: 3289); a primitive root meaning to advise, to consult, to give counsel, to counsel, to purpose, to devise, to plan[2]; reflexively, to deliberate or resolve[3]. The Hebrew word for ya`ats is a verbal adjective in the Qal participle active voice indicating continued, simple action.[4] Because ya`ats is tied to a noun pele' it could be modified in an expanded text to read, “counseling in the purposes & plan {of God}.” WONDERFUL COUNSELOR = “The wondrous Redeemer separated {unto God} by {his} distinguishing act of redemption {who} counsels in the purposes & plan {of God}” What an apt description of Jesus’ role at the Father God’s right hand; he is the Redeemer who, by his distinguishing act of obedience to God became the sacrificial lamb crucified as propitiation for the sins of mankind and all who would believe and come to the Father’s throne of grace through him. Further, Jesus IS the gift of the Holy Spirit, in that he promised his disciples that he would return to them after his death, resurrection and ascension, and he would be their Helper or Counselor as the Parakletos, or One called alongside to advocate and advise. For more info on this topic, click onto the link Jesus Is The Gift Of The Holy Spirit Part One and read thru the entire 10 part series. While researching how this Hebrew word pele is used throughout the OT it occurs primarily in texts that describe the supernatural wonders and works of Yahweh, as in the passages: Exodus 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? Who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders (pele')? KJV Psalms 77:11 I will remember the works of the LORD: surely I will remember thy wonders (pele') of old. KJV Psalms 77:14 Thou art the God that doest wonders (pele'): thou hast declared thy strength among the people. KJV Psalms 78:12 Marvelous (pele') things did he in the sight of their fathers, in the land of Egypt, in the field of Zoan. KJV Also, (pele') occurs in Psalms 88:10, 12; 89:5; 119:129; Isaiah 9:6; 25:1; 29:14; Lamentations 1:9; Daniel 12:6. To best illustrate how the Hebrew word pele’ was intended and is used elsewhere in the OT one look no further than the Book of Isaiah itself (see below): Isaiah 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work (pala') among this people, a marvelous work (pala') and a wonder (pele'); for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden." NKJV Isaiah 29:14 is used by the apostle Paul specifically in his first epistle to the Corinthian church referring to Jesus Christ as a man whom God uses to redeem his people. There are two main texts that Paul uses Isaiah 29:14 descriptive of the man Jesus 1 Corinthians 3:19 & 1:19 (see below) 1 Corinthians 1:18-19 For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will set aside." NAS Later in 1 Corinthians 1: 30 Paul further elaborates on his use of Isaiah’s prophetic words by saying, “But by His (GOD’S) doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption." Note the emphasis is on what GOD did “IN” Christ Jesus, who BECAME to the church wisdom from God. Then later in chapter three Paul uses Isaiah 29:14 to again drive home his point concerning the redemption found in the gospel message: 1 Corinthians 3:19-20 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is the one who catches the wise in their craftiness"; 20 and again, "The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are useless." Leaving no room for speculation whatsoever, the apostle Paul finishes the text in 1 Corinthians 3:23 describing the order of authority. 1 Corinthians 3:23 …and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God. NAS These words, “and Christ belongs to God,” should forever settle in the mind and heart of the Christian that Jesus is not God, and that Isaiah 9:6 should not be used to affirm the teaching of the deity of Christ. 1 Corinthians 3:23 says, “… you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.” This phrase is in order of declension, so it defines order of rank; how then can Jesus be God if he also belongs to God in the exact same way we belong to Christ? MIGHTY GOD MIGHTY - The Hebrew word gibbowr (OT:1368) for mighty is an adjective; Strong’s defines gibbowr as powerful, warrior; as an adjective it means strong or mighty. GOD - The Hebrew word for God is 'el (OT: 410); as a noun 'el is a shortened from OT:352 and literally means, “strength.” To fully understand how the word fits into the context of Isaiah 9:6 it becomes necessary to trace the meaning of the word from its Hebrew root origin. The root word is 'ayil (OT:352) and below are the possible definitions and applications of OT:352: 'ayil -- OT:352 1) Ram a) Ram (as food) b) Ram (as sacrifice) c) Ram (skin dyed red, for tabernacle) 2) Pillar, doorpost, jambs, pilaster 3) A strong man, a leader, a chief [5] 4) Mighty tree, terebinth If 1b is used then 'el gibbowr would be rendered as strong sacrifice; this is a possibility, and if it truly is the intended meaning, perhaps it is meant to build upon the prior words for wondrous counselor by his distinguishing act of obedience to God as he became the sacrificial lamb crucified and the propitiation for their sins. I believe this is valid but unlikely, since the tenor of Isaiah 9:6 is directed more towards strong, governmental-type leadership (throne of David). Therefore I favor definition #3 and believe 'el gibbowr means a strong man, a leader, a chief in Isaiah 9:6 because this is the general sense in which the Jews viewed the coming Messiah (i.e. – as a strong leader like Moses, or Abraham, or David). EVERLASTING FATHER EVERLASTING = The Hebrew word is `ad (OT: 5703); in this context it is a noun and is defined as meaning, perpetuity, forever, continuing future. It can be used of ancient past time, or as in the case of Isaiah 9:6 it means, forever as used of future time that is of continuous existence. In other words, continuous future existence that has a starting point and continues forever. Strong's defines `ad OT: 5703 as from OT: 5710; properly, a peremptory terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition). The 1828 Webster’s Dictionary definition of peremptory and terminus is as follows: · Peremptory = absolute; decisive; authoritative; in a manner to preclude debate or expostulation. (e.g. - The orders of the commander are peremptory). · Terminus = The act of limiting or setting bounds; the act of ending or concluding · Peremptory Terminus = The authoritative act of passing on or removing the eternal (perpetual) existence; in the case of Jesus, it would mean the authoritative act of passing on or denying access to eternal life. The root origin of the Hebrew word `ad OT: 5703 comes from `adah OT: 5710; `adah is defined as meaning, “to pass on or to remove or to adorn.” To adorn is the most common use of `adah in the OT. FATHER = The Hebrew word is 'ab (OT: 1) and in this context it is a noun; Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon definitions for this word are as follows: 'ab -- OT: 1 1) The father of an individual 2) Used of God as Father of His people 3) The head or the founder of a household, a group, a family, or a clan 4) An ancestor a) A grandfather, the forefathers - of a person b) Used of people (in general) 5) An originator or patron of a class, profession, or art 6) Used of a producer, a generator (figuratively) 7) Used of benevolence and of protection (figuratively) 8) Used as a term of respect and honor 9) A ruler or a chief (specifically)[6] I prefer #9 because it is consistent with the rest of the verse; Isaiah 9:6 seems to portray the Messiah as an authoritative ruler that has been delegated some serious decision making power. By combining the two nouns used for everlasting Father and using the context of Isaiah 9:7b which reads, “and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward, even forever,” we see Jesus sits on David’s throne at a certain point in time, and from that point onward establishes justice forever (Peremptory Terminus). EVERLASTING FATHER = The literal meaning would be properly rendered as, “The ruler with authority to pass on or deny access to eternal life.” Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible translates this verse as, “father of futurities.” Either way, the passage in no way supports the doctrines that teach Jesus is one and the same as the eternal Father God. Jesus is a man in subjection TO God, but appointed by Him also as the ruler over His spiritual creation, which is the church. PRINCE OF PEACE PRINCE = The Hebrew word is sar’ (OT: 8269) and is a noun; it means a chief, a head, an overseer, prince, elders & used of the representative leaders of people. OF PEACE = The Hebrew word is shalowm or shalom (OT: 7965) and is a noun; it means completeness, soundness, welfare, peace a) Completeness (in number) b) Safety, soundness (in body) c) Welfare, health, prosperity d) Peace, quiet, tranquility, contentment e) Peace, friendship 1) Used of human relationships 2) With God especially in covenant relationship f) Peace (from war) g) Peace (as adjective) I think you could use any one of the definitions and make it work within the context of Jesus as Head of the church and his spiritual body. I prefer this rendering of sar shalom: Jesus… The chief elder in covenant relationship with God…shalom! Return to BAS Homepage · Craig's Bible Studies · E-mail Craig · Write Us · Writings & Links to BAS Friends · Q & A · Return to Top of This Page
[1] (from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c)1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.) [2] From The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c)1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research [3] Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc. [4] The Complete Word Study Bible Copyright © 1991, 1994, 2002 AMG International, Inc [5] The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c)1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research [6] Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c) 1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research
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Post by StAnne on Dec 16, 2014 13:38:55 GMT -5
Jesus Christ is the Everlasting father...Stanne wrote:Parallel Bible, biblos.com ... Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible The everlasting Father; ... bible.cc/isaiah/9-6.htm We may as well add one of the last paragraphs of Gill's explanation of 'the everlasting Father' ... The Septuagint version is, "the Father of the world to come" (t); of the Gospel dispensation; so called, Hebrews 2:5 the legal dispensation, when in being, was the then present world, at the end of which Christ came; this is now at an end, and a new state of things has taken place, which with respect to the Old Testament saints was the world to come, and of this Christ is the Father or author; as the law came by Moses, and he was the father of the legal dispensation, grace and truth are come by Christ, the Father and author of the Gospel dispensation; the doctrines of it are from him, and the ordinances of it by him; ... biblehub.com/isaiah/9-6.htmA couple of other points. Jesus is Father of the world to come also in the sense that He is - above all of the other biblical patriarchs (Abraham, etc.)
- the last (and sinless) Adam
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 15:23:08 GMT -5
Let's start a new thread - should we or shouldn't we, ban copy and paste.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 15:44:42 GMT -5
Let's start a new thread - should we or shouldn't we, ban copy and paste. Good idea Bert! We can start a thread solely for the purpose of displaying "all" copy and pastes, youtubes, etc. That way every other thread can be absolutely free of them. We can have an unwritten rule that if anyone doesn't follow this protocol, then they will be stopped from taking part on this board until they show that they are worthy again to participate. If they continue in their behaviour then they can be banished completely from the board? ps Bert, it is 8.45pm GMT, not quite my bedtime.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 15:48:54 GMT -5
God redeems "through" his Son Jesus. Ultimately God the Father is the Redeemer.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 15:49:17 GMT -5
So, Bert who do you think the Old Testament Redeemer is? Jesus
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 15:52:38 GMT -5
God redeems "through" his Son Jesus. Ultimately God the Father is the Redeemer. hmmmmm..... Did God the Father died for you, Ram?No. God the Father gave his only begotten Son so that those who believed in his name would not perish but would have everlasting life. God did not die for me. His only begotten Son, Jesus died for me. He redeemed me from my sins through his shed blood on the cross. A perfect, innocent human being was the sacrifice for my sins, NOT God himself.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 16, 2014 15:56:32 GMT -5
Ram, if lengthy discourse determines how long someone is banned...are you not standing close to the head of the count?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 16, 2014 16:01:15 GMT -5
God redeems "through" his Son Jesus. Ultimately God the Father is the Redeemer. No, Ram, The Father is not the Redeemer....He sent His only begotten Son....He gave His only begotten Son......true He suffered pain when His Son suffered pain but in the long run according to the OT scriptures that Jesus himself spoke about, God had planned that His Son would always come to the earth to redeem all mankind....it was God's way of opening up the way of salvation to the Gentile nations....for as Jesus told the Samaritan woman that salvation was always of the children of Israel. Jesus, the Son of God, is always been "the Redeemer"! The point perhaps you have in mind is that after we are "redeemed" by the Son's blood, then the Father looks at us with our "borrowed" righteousness and grants "grace"....redeeming is payng a price isn't it?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 16:11:13 GMT -5
Let's start a new thread - should we or shouldn't we, ban copy and paste.
Say what? Banning copy and paste? How could some ever
even post here? Next you will likely want to ban plagiarizing!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 16:14:29 GMT -5
No. God the Father gave his only begotten Son so that those who believed in his name would not perish but would have everlasting life. God did not die for me. His only begotten Son, Jesus died for me. He redeemed me from my sins through his shed blood on the cross. A perfect, innocent human being was the sacrifice for my sins, NOT God himself. God the Father didn't die for us on Calvary's Cross, then He couldn't be our Redeemer. It was Jesus who died/redeemed for our sins therefore He is our Redeemer.The Father redeems us "through" the sacrifice of his only beloved Son. What is it about "through" that is so difficult for you to understand, Nathan? Jesus himself told us that the "works" that he did were not his own, but the Father working through him. This includes the Cross!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 16:15:16 GMT -5
Ram, if lengthy discourse determines how long someone is banned...are you not standing close to the head of the count? That was not the criteria Shaz!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 16:18:56 GMT -5
God redeems "through" his Son Jesus. Ultimately God the Father is the Redeemer. No, Ram, The Father is not the Redeemer....He sent His only begotten Son....He gave His only begotten Son......true He suffered pain when His Son suffered pain but in the long run according to the OT scriptures that Jesus himself spoke about, God had planned that His Son would always come to the earth to redeem all mankind....it was God's way of opening up the way of salvation to the Gentile nations....for as Jesus told the Samaritan woman that salvation was always of the children of Israel. Jesus, the Son of God, is always been "the Redeemer"! The point perhaps you have in mind is that after we are "redeemed" by the Son's blood, then the Father looks at us with our "borrowed" righteousness and grants "grace"....redeeming is payng a price isn't it? Who sent the Son to die for your sins Shaz? Whose "will" was it that Jesus would die on the cross? Didn't Jesus sweat blood the night before he was taken asking the Father that this cup should pass from him, but nevertheless...thy will be done! God sent his only begotten Son to redeem YOU. Jesus was the one who went through the sacrifice, but it was his Father's will and plan for your redemption. Jesus was the obedient sacrifice.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 16:40:35 GMT -5
The Father redeems us "through" the sacrifice of his only beloved Son. What is it about "through" that is so difficult for you to understand, Nathan? Jesus himself told us that the "works" that he did were not his own, but the Father working through him. This includes the Cross! No, ram... Personally, God the Father did NOT redeem us. God the Father had allowed the Son, who died on Calvary's Cross to be our Redeemer! If Jesus HAD NOT die on Calvary's Cross there would be NO Redeemer! for our sins.Revelation chapter 5:9-13 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and has Redeemed us to God by thy BLOOD, out of every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”Nathan, God the Father does all things through his Son Jesus. If you are going to quote from Revelation 5 it would be better if you included the opening verses that it was a worthy MAN that was being sought to open the Book of Seals. Only the MAN Jesus was found to be worthy (NOT God, but a Man). 5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Here we have clear proof that it was a MAN NOT God that was being sought and Jesus the man was the only one that had prevailed. I should also add my response to Shaz above to further answer your response. Who sent the Son to die for your sins Shaz? Whose "will" was it that Jesus would die on the cross? Didn't Jesus sweat blood the night before he was taken asking the Father that this cup should pass from him, but nevertheless...thy will be done!
God sent his only begotten Son to redeem YOU. Jesus was the one who went through the sacrifice, but it was his Father's will and plan for your redemption. Jesus was the obedient sacrifice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 17:01:25 GMT -5
No, ram... Personally, God the Father did NOT redeem us. God the Father had allowed the Son, who died on Calvary's Cross to be our Redeemer! If Jesus HAD NOT die on Calvary's Cross there would be NO Redeemer! for our sins.Revelation chapter 5:9-13 And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and has Redeemed us to God by thy BLOOD, out of every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” Nathan, God the Father does all things through his Son Jesus. If you are going to quote from Revelation 5 it would be better if you included the opening verses that it was a worthy MAN that was being sought to open the Book of Seals. Only the MAN Jesus was found to be worthy (NOT God, but a Man). 5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Here we have clear proof that it was a MAN NOT God that was being sought and Jesus the man was the only one that had prevailed. I should also add my response to Shaz above to further answer your response. Who sent the Son to die for your sins Shaz? Whose "will" was it that Jesus would die on the cross? Didn't Jesus sweat blood the night before he was taken asking the Father that this cup should pass from him, but nevertheless...thy will be done!
God sent his only begotten Son to redeem YOU. Jesus was the one who went through the sacrifice, but it was his Father's will and plan for your redemption. Jesus was the obedient sacrifice.
your reading that wrong...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2014 17:05:05 GMT -5
Nathan, God the Father does all things through his Son Jesus. If you are going to quote from Revelation 5 it would be better if you included the opening verses that it was a worthy MAN that was being sought to open the Book of Seals. Only the MAN Jesus was found to be worthy (NOT God, but a Man). 5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Here we have clear proof that it was a MAN NOT God that was being sought and Jesus the man was the only one that had prevailed. I should also add my response to Shaz above to further answer your response. Who sent the Son to die for your sins Shaz? Whose "will" was it that Jesus would die on the cross? Didn't Jesus sweat blood the night before he was taken asking the Father that this cup should pass from him, but nevertheless...thy will be done!
God sent his only begotten Son to redeem YOU. Jesus was the one who went through the sacrifice, but it was his Father's will and plan for your redemption. Jesus was the obedient sacrifice.
your reading that wrong... What bit wrong? Please explain.
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Post by snow on Dec 16, 2014 20:26:43 GMT -5
Nathan, God the Father does all things through his Son Jesus. If you are going to quote from Revelation 5 it would be better if you included the opening verses that it was a worthy MAN that was being sought to open the Book of Seals. Only the MAN Jesus was found to be worthy (NOT God, but a Man). 5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.Here we have clear proof that it was a MAN NOT God that was being sought and Jesus the man was the only one that had prevailed. I should also add my response to Shaz above to further answer your response. Who sent the Son to die for your sins Shaz? Whose "will" was it that Jesus would die on the cross? Didn't Jesus sweat blood the night before he was taken asking the Father that this cup should pass from him, but nevertheless...thy will be done!
God sent his only begotten Son to redeem YOU. Jesus was the one who went through the sacrifice, but it was his Father's will and plan for your redemption. Jesus was the obedient sacrifice.
your reading that wrong... and don't you forget it either Ram... geez! Just another example of how the Bible can be interpreted any way you want it to be! Does no one see the irony?
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Post by Lee on Dec 16, 2014 21:52:09 GMT -5
No doubt there was voluntary and involuntary, conflict and richness present in Jesus' crossroads with the cross. The involuntary aspects of his personality would have most closely corresponded to his man nature, and the voluntary to the divine. Like Islam, 2x2's regular invert his personality, claiming one way or another that his involuntary submission most closely corresponded with the divine. Me thinks they under-estimate God and Man.
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Post by Lee on Dec 16, 2014 22:17:20 GMT -5
Job 19:25 " As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, And at the last He will take His stand on the earth" As for me - meaning this is a very personal belief I know - meaning he didn't just "believe" but had some revelation my - meaning He belongs to me Redeemer - meaning one who redeems, to buy back lives - meaning He is alive now, not "he will live one day" at the last - meaning a long, long way into the future He will take his stand on the earth - meaning He is destined, he will be live amongst us. The Jews did not want, nor believe in a Messiah, as son of God, who offered Himself to redeem His people. Job has no interest in Jewish style earthly kings. So if this isn't the Christian Messiah, who is Job yearning for? An atheist. Damned straight, God knows we need more of them.
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Post by StAnne on Dec 16, 2014 22:30:56 GMT -5
Job 19:25 ... The Jews did not want, nor believe in a Messiah, as son of God, who offered Himself to redeem His people. Job has no interest in Jewish style earthly kings. So if this isn't the Christian Messiah, who is Job yearning for? Some of the cross references for your cited verse ... Redeemer in the OT. I don't know how anyone could (in this age) read these and not see God as Redeemer; Christ as Redeemer and God/Man. Keeping in mind that the OT God had not yet been revealed as three divine persons of the ONE God. Psalm 18:46 The Lord liveth, and blessed be my God, and let the God of my salvation be exalted : Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their *rock, and the high God their redeemer.(*which ties back in nicely to Nathan's cited 1 Cor 10:4 of the rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ)Isaiah 43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; ... Jeremiah 50:34 Their Redeemer is strong; the LORD of hosts is his name:or ...Yet their Redeemer is strong; the LORD Almighty is his name.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 16, 2014 22:56:45 GMT -5
Let's start a new thread - should we or shouldn't we, ban copy and paste. Ban copy & paste?
You expect everyone of us who presents knowledge that someone has is more accurate than we have, to have to hand copy every bit of information?
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 16, 2014 23:24:45 GMT -5
Not only that, only original thought allowed to be shared, bingo, 99.9 percent data space restored on tmb and around the world. Lots of blank space now. Nobody arguing that what I copied is better than yours. It wouldn't take very long, maybe as short as a few hundred years, and that original thought will again be copied and pasted and acceptked as new knowledge that highly educated people can appear as wise as the originals. Lol Alvin
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 4:25:11 GMT -5
This question hasn't been answered. Nor, from a skeptic's point of view, can it be answered. The simplest answer is: Job in his suffering had a revelation of the Christ. This revelation is no different to the one David, or Jacob, or Isaiah, or Daniel, or Ezekiel or any of the other authors of the Old Testament had.
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