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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 12:39:12 GMT -5
They both look and seem so worldly. I wanted to give it my all. My unprofessing classmates back in the 1970s and 80s were less "worldly" seeming. I guess I am wondering what has happened in their Kingdom?? Girls in shorts, short skirts, kids playing sports, slang talk, listings of favorite movies etc. I am shocked when they go on a hiking trip with their "meeting folks" and the crowd is dressing the way they do today. How do middle aged and older folks in "the truth" feel about these changes? Are they OK with it or pained to see the Kingdom suffer loss. Do some middle aged folks resent the liberty the younger ones seem to have. Girls have been denied baptism in the 1970s for things that girls openly wear today. I was even shocked to see pants worn at the preps at Newry PA! MAN OH MAN.How things can change. Why didn't OUR generation take a stand against silly rules? I think the older generations set the rules and we didn't have the courage to contest them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 12:46:57 GMT -5
its suppose to get worse and worse walker before then end....
2Pe_3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 12:52:48 GMT -5
Old Hollywood actresses wouldn't have appeared on the Ed Sullivan show like some of my young female cousins dress on the convention grounds. I see their photos on facebook. Would Joan Crawford have shown as much flesh as my cousins if she were appearing on Johnny Carson, Dick Cavett or Ed Sullivan show? I doubt it. Seems like as long as it is a dress, nothing is said about it. Seems like if you aren't[/b preaching wrong doctrine in meeting,challenging the workers, missing too many meetings (some rarely attend but still have their names left on the list), or marrying outside of the Truth, they pretty much leave you alone.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 13:40:35 GMT -5
This was about 10 years ago at Seneca IL convention. Tina S. spoke about a young man that was into wrestling. His mother didn't know what to say so she let him participate but he chose to quit because he didn't like the influences of those he was around or something like that. Tina Stringfield praised the young man for making the decision to quit wrestling. I heard Jon Knochenmus say something similar about football. In my part, band, ANY extracurricular activity etc. was strongly discouraged. I heard about a young man who gave up an activity in school because they were LIVING for the things that their family was DYING to or something like that. There were and are regional differences even if we thought this Kingdom was the same the world over which is next to impossible if you think about it. In 1982, Eldon Tenniswood said in his young people meetings that he hasnt seen anyone very "spiritual" who participated in sports (not verbatim). In my area, those over 70 today are still VERY opposed to sports but they have softened a bit to the friends participating in sports. They tolerate it but personally believe young people would be better off if they didn't get involved in sports. I don't think there is any punishment for sports in 2014 at least in the developed world. If the professing athlete is able to get to bible studies and gospel meetings, it would be tolerated at least.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 14:44:09 GMT -5
Times have changed and standards have slipped and changed in societies and they have become relaxed and are being treated as "normal" which has become acceptable to many. If you see something often enough and it is not challenged forcefully, you get sort of use to it and it becomes as like normal, it does not shock you anymore. Then they are those who will feel, ok, if I can't beat them , I'll join them . Also for some , it is a case of the grass on the other side looks greener so they go over the other side and like it, and remain there. Sometimes I get into conversations with younger folks and when I make any references to the old days , they soon tell me that they are not interested in the old days because they are living in modern times. So there you are, we are all in modern times.
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Post by blacksheep on Dec 12, 2014 15:30:04 GMT -5
In Michigan, there was a Brother Worker who enjoyed teaching the boys wrestling holds....he ended up doing prison time and was removed from The Work. The Michigan Overseer and another Brother Worker were charged with failure to notify the proper authorities regarding these unauthorized wrestling lessons and were sentenced to community service. The Brother who enjoyed being a wrestling teacher likely became a wrestling student in prison...
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Post by blacksheep on Dec 12, 2014 16:21:19 GMT -5
Ecclesiastes 7:10 (New International Version)
10) Do not say, "Why were the old days better than these?" For it is not wise to ask such questions.
Ecclesiastes 7:10 (King James Version)
10) Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not enquire wisely concerning this.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 16:47:01 GMT -5
its suppose to get worse and worse walker before then end.... 2Pe_3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, Define "worse". Does what Walker describe really sound like "lust", or does it sound like kids being allowed to have a normal childhood? have you ever heard of the "lust for power" doesn't necessarily mean sex you can lust after a lot of things....
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Post by matisse on Dec 12, 2014 18:34:42 GMT -5
Times have changed and standards have slipped and changed in societies and they have become relaxed and are being treated as "normal" which has become acceptable to many. If you see something often enough and it is not challenged forcefully, you get sort of use to it and it becomes as like normal, it does not shock you anymore. Then they are those who will feel, ok, if I can't beat them , I'll join them . Also for some , it is a case of the grass on the other side looks greener so they go over the other side and like it, and remain there. Sometimes I get into conversations with younger folks and when I make any references to the old days , they soon tell me that they are not interested in the old days because they are living in modern times. So there you are, we are all in modern times. That's unfortunate that they're not interested in the old days. I suppose if you're lecturing them on how things have gotten so much worse these days, I can see why they're not interested. Things sure were better back in the day when all a boy wanted to to do was grow up and fight in war like his old man. Back when women had little say in who they married. Back when entire races of people were denied basic rights. Too bad we had to go and let our standards slip. Doesn't every generation at some point say "Tsk, tsk, kids these days..."??
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Post by snow on Dec 12, 2014 18:57:52 GMT -5
I am glad to see the changes that allow kids to play in sports. I loved gym and was really good at gymnastics but wasn't allowed to be on the team because we competed after hours. I did get to play baseball though because we played baseball at potlucks in the park with the friends. So I guess that was allowed. I wasn't allowed to go with the team when they competed out of town though. I really would have loved to have those rights when I was growing up.
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Post by matisse on Dec 12, 2014 19:03:54 GMT -5
I am glad to see the changes that allow kids to play in sports. I loved gym and was really good at gymnastics but wasn't allowed to be on the team because we competed after hours. I did get to play baseball though because we played baseball at potlucks in the park with the friends. So I guess that was allowed. I wasn't allowed to go with the team when they competed out of town though. I really would have loved to have those rights when I was growing up. I would have played basketball, softball and field hockey. I played in a women's softball league during my thirties. I had to learn how not to play like I was wearing a skirt!
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Post by snow on Dec 12, 2014 19:16:04 GMT -5
I am glad to see the changes that allow kids to play in sports. I loved gym and was really good at gymnastics but wasn't allowed to be on the team because we competed after hours. I did get to play baseball though because we played baseball at potlucks in the park with the friends. So I guess that was allowed. I wasn't allowed to go with the team when they competed out of town though. I really would have loved to have those rights when I was growing up. I would have played basketball, softball and field hockey. I played in a women's softball league during my thirties. I had to learn how not to play like I was wearing a skirt! I was too short to be any good at basket ball, but I was really good at baseball and even not too bad at field hockey (in gym class anyway). I also was a good skater and played hockey on an outdoor rink at school and wasn't too shabby. I always wore pants to play sports. I refused to wear a skirt and I know that was frowned on. I can't imagine playing softball in a skirt. How does one slide into bases in a skirt!!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2014 19:56:22 GMT -5
Times have changed and standards have slipped and changed in societies and they have become relaxed and are being treated as "normal" which has become acceptable to many. If you see something often enough and it is not challenged forcefully, you get sort of use to it and it becomes as like normal, it does not shock you anymore. Then they are those who will feel, ok, if I can't beat them , I'll join them . Also for some , it is a case of the grass on the other side looks greener so they go over the other side and like it, and remain there. Sometimes I get into conversations with younger folks and when I make any references to the old days , they soon tell me that they are not interested in the old days because they are living in modern times. So there you are, we are all in modern times. That's unfortunate that they're not interested in the old days. I suppose if you're lecturing them on how things have gotten so much worse these days, I can see why they're not interested. Things sure were better back in the day when all a boy wanted to to do was grow up and fight in war like his old man. Back when women had little say in who they married. Back when entire races of people were denied basic rights. Too bad we had to go and let our standards slip. Well if that is how you interpret what I have written, so be it. I was not referring to progress and improvements in the area of human rights etc. I was referring to the slippage in standards of morality and the respect for parents and elders and teachers and those in authority, police officers for example; the drop in standards that allow school children to take guns to school, and we have recent examples of how that turned out, also mindless vandalism of properties, vulgarity on line etc.
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Post by matisse on Dec 12, 2014 22:59:12 GMT -5
I would have played basketball, softball and field hockey. I played in a women's softball league during my thirties. I had to learn how not to play like I was wearing a skirt! I was too short to be any good at basket ball, but I was really good at baseball and even not too bad at field hockey (in gym class anyway). I also was a good skater and played hockey on an outdoor rink at school and wasn't too shabby. I always wore pants to play sports. I refused to wear a skirt and I know that was frowned on. I can't imagine playing softball in a skirt. How does one slide into bases in a skirt!!! I was too tall to be good at gymnastics! I wore a gym uniform in school like the rest of my classmates, but played softball with the Friends in a skirt. My teammates in the modified fast pitch softball league had all played varsity ball in high school and some in college as well. We had team uniforms. I stood out, at least in the beginning, as the player who fielded ground balls with a closed-leg, sideways curtsy!
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Post by snow on Dec 13, 2014 12:05:13 GMT -5
I was too short to be any good at basket ball, but I was really good at baseball and even not too bad at field hockey (in gym class anyway). I also was a good skater and played hockey on an outdoor rink at school and wasn't too shabby. I always wore pants to play sports. I refused to wear a skirt and I know that was frowned on. I can't imagine playing softball in a skirt. How does one slide into bases in a skirt!!! I was too tall to be good at gymnastics! I wore a gym uniform in school like the rest of my classmates, but played softball with the Friends in a skirt. My teammates in the modified fast pitch softball league had all played varsity ball in high school and some in college as well. We had team uniforms. I stood out, at least in the beginning, as the player who fielded ground balls with a closed-leg, sideways curtsy! Now that would take skill!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 14:07:40 GMT -5
That's unfortunate that they're not interested in the old days. I suppose if you're lecturing them on how things have gotten so much worse these days, I can see why they're not interested. Things sure were better back in the day when all a boy wanted to to do was grow up and fight in war like his old man. Back when women had little say in who they married. Back when entire races of people were denied basic rights. Too bad we had to go and let our standards slip. Doesn't every generation at some point say "Tsk, tsk, kids these days..."?? Exactly! One wonders why that is so.
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Post by matisse on Dec 13, 2014 14:28:59 GMT -5
Doesn't every generation at some point say "Tsk, tsk, kids these days..."?? Exactly! One wonders why that is so. The funny thing is that one can look back on previous generations and say "tsk, tsk..." as well!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 15:26:01 GMT -5
Exactly! One wonders why that is so. The funny thing is that one can look back on previous generations and say "tsk, tsk..." as well! You are absolutely correct again. It has much to do with perception, how we perceive things based on our experiences in life; we may perceive something as good and excellent whilse others may perceive that same thing to be bad and awful base on their experiences.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 13, 2014 18:07:00 GMT -5
Interesting discussion.
Out of one side of one's mouth the 2x2s are criticized for not being up with the times. Out of the other side of one's mouth the 2x2s are criticized for losing their morals by catching up.
Did anyone else 50 years ago have the guts to just dress to shock, comb your hair to make eyelashes bat, and do things that made people gasp -- just so you could feel normal? I think too many people think/thought the workers' approval counted for something.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 18:23:13 GMT -5
Interesting discussion. Out of one side of one's mouth the 2x2s are criticized for not being up with the times. Out of the other side of one's mouth the 2x2s are criticized for losing their morals by catching up. Did anyone else 50 years ago have the guts to just dress to shock, comb your hair to make eyelashes bat, and do things that made people gasp -- just so you could feel normal? I think too many people think/thought the workers' approval counted for something. Counted for something or counted for everything?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 13, 2014 19:31:53 GMT -5
Interesting discussion. Out of one side of one's mouth the 2x2s are criticized for not being up with the times. Out of the other side of one's mouth the 2x2s are criticized for losing their morals by catching up. Did anyone else 50 years ago have the guts to just dress to shock, comb your hair to make eyelashes bat, and do things that made people gasp -- just so you could feel normal? I think too many people think/thought the workers' approval counted for something. Counted for something or counted for everything? Granted, I was spoken to about some things -- only once did I accept it as a legitimate concern. Otherwise -- shoes, pants, shirts, coats, hair, movies, stereo, skating in a public rink, Jewish weddings, Muslim mosques -- and I never once promised to "comply". I would just say, "Don't you worry, now." I just never regarded myself to be stupider than the workers. Is that arrogance on my part? I don't think so. I learned very early on that if you let them do it the workers will TELL you to do some pretty crazy things.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2014 20:15:02 GMT -5
Counted for something or counted for everything? Granted, I was spoken to about some things -- only once did I accept it as a legitimate concern. Otherwise -- shoes, pants, shirts, coats, hair, movies, stereo, skating in a public rink, Jewish weddings, Muslim mosques -- and I never once promised to "comply". I would just say, "Don't you worry, now." I just never regarded myself to be stupider than the workers. Is that arrogance on my part? I don't think so. I learned very early on that if you let them do it the workers will TELL you to do some pretty crazy things. Do and say crazy things seems to be the hall mark. A brother worker died recently and I Was talking to one of the professing friends about him, and he told me that this particular brother worker once told him that he has never apologized for anything even if he was wrong. Now that looks more crazy to me than Christlike. If I am not mistaken I believe that somewhere in a thread on this forum some one mentioned that a worker once told him/her that if a worker tells him/her to do something, even if it is wrong, he/she should obey the worker and do it.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 13, 2014 21:20:44 GMT -5
Granted, I was spoken to about some things -- only once did I accept it as a legitimate concern. Otherwise -- shoes, pants, shirts, coats, hair, movies, stereo, skating in a public rink, Jewish weddings, Muslim mosques -- and I never once promised to "comply". I would just say, "Don't you worry, now." I just never regarded myself to be stupider than the workers. Is that arrogance on my part? I don't think so. I learned very early on that if you let them do it the workers will TELL you to do some pretty crazy things. Do and say crazy things seems to be the hall mark. A brother worker died recently and I Was talking to one of the professing friends about him, and he told me that this particular brother worker once told him that he has never apologized for anything even if he was wrong. Now that looks more crazy to me than Christlike. If I am not mistaken I believe that somewhere in a thread on this forum some one mentioned that a worker once told him/her that if a worker tells him/her to do something, even if it is wrong, he/she should obey the worker and do it. Do it because he is a worker came straight from the overseer in California in writing. I also heard a worker say once that he did apologize once -- not because he was wrong, but because he was too harsh in his delivery of the message. Not only do some workers tell you to do crazy things. Some of them do crazy things themselves. Oh man, I have known some real doozies. Like a red-eyed hangover for Sunday morning meeting!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 5:00:57 GMT -5
Do and say crazy things seems to be the hall mark. A brother worker died recently and I Was talking to one of the professing friends about him, and he told me that this particular brother worker once told him that he has never apologized for anything even if he was wrong. Now that looks more crazy to me than Christlike. If I am not mistaken I believe that somewhere in a thread on this forum some one mentioned that a worker once told him/her that if a worker tells him/her to do something, even if it is wrong, he/she should obey the worker and do it. Do it because he is a worker came straight from the overseer in California in writing. I also heard a worker say once that he did apologize once -- not because he was wrong, but because he was too harsh in his delivery of the message. Not only do some workers tell you to do crazy things. Some of them do crazy things themselves. Oh man, I have known some real doozies. Like a red-eyed hangover for Sunday morning meeting! You know, it is stories like these that put doubts in the minds of clear-thinking folks, we were taught to hold these workers in high esteem as Godly near perfect people, and when "we come down to earth from the clouds" so to speak, we realized that they are also normal human beings and behave like human beings. They are/we are as vulnerable to deceit, pretense and all the other weaknesses as observed in ministers and folks in other churches; self righteousness is universal. Really it is just a matter of choice which flock we wish to gather and fellowship with, and feel fairly comfortable, by turning a blind eye to and tolerating imperfections and practices, that suit our purposes. It is very comforting to know and believe that God will be the judge and not man.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 11:28:36 GMT -5
My own parents fully believed as the Ca. Worker overseer put in writing, not only believing it for themselves but ostracizing anyone, even their own flesh and blood for not agreeing with and living by it.
Being taught that from childhood, what does one do when they mature, become a worker, and know that office alone makes none right to such an extent? It is a very very sad commentary on an "experiment" which could have been grand however went very much awry. The answer "why?" for me has been quite simple. That "experiment" was of frail human will from it's very inception, no matter how much, nor to what extent it is denied and whitewashed today by totally dedicated adherents even yet.
That adherance to me is even the more unbelievable today when it is held by "ex-workers" who try their hardest to force square pegs into round holes even yet to maintain such "place" they have left in that group. Where have all the flowers gone? Indeed. Picked and rotted long ago, everyone.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 14, 2014 19:09:34 GMT -5
Do it because he is a worker came straight from the overseer in California in writing. I also heard a worker say once that he did apologize once -- not because he was wrong, but because he was too harsh in his delivery of the message. Not only do some workers tell you to do crazy things. Some of them do crazy things themselves. Oh man, I have known some real doozies. Like a red-eyed hangover for Sunday morning meeting! You know, it is stories like these that put doubts in the minds of clear-thinking folks, we were taught to hold these workers in high esteem as Godly near perfect people, and when "we come down to earth from the clouds" so to speak, we realized that they are also normal human beings and behave like human beings. They are/we are as vulnerable to deceit, pretense and all the other weaknesses as observed in ministers and folks in other churches; self righteousness is universal. Really it is just a matter of choice which flock we wish to gather and fellowship with, and feel fairly comfortable, by turning a blind eye to and tolerating imperfections and practices, that suit our purposes. It is very comforting to know and believe that God will be the judge and not man. One of the most repeated things I heard from my earliest age was that some worker had told my grandparents to follow him only as far as he was following the Lord, and if they found he wasn't following the Lord, to no follow him any more. I guess that is what prevented me from falling into the trap of: the workers are underwriting my salvation. I never got in a fit if one of the friends got way off base -- humans are subject to those kinds of possibilities. I never even lost sleep over a worker coming to Sunday meeting with a hangover -- humans are subject to those kinds of possibilities. What I could not abide was workers lying to and about the friends, and lying to and about each other, and sending young people to jail for misdemeanors while sheltering each other from prosecution for major serious felonies. That's not the result of simple human failure -- that is the indication that there is "them" and "me"; and "they" are always going to be right, and "I" a stupid enough to believe "I" don't need to know why. They can go blow their smoke up someone else's ... !
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2014 20:31:36 GMT -5
You know, it is stories like these that put doubts in the minds of clear-thinking folks, we were taught to hold these workers in high esteem as Godly near perfect people, and when "we come down to earth from the clouds" so to speak, we realized that they are also normal human beings and behave like human beings. They are/we are as vulnerable to deceit, pretense and all the other weaknesses as observed in ministers and folks in other churches; self righteousness is universal. Really it is just a matter of choice which flock we wish to gather and fellowship with, and feel fairly comfortable, by turning a blind eye to and tolerating imperfections and practices, that suit our purposes. It is very comforting to know and believe that God will be the judge and not man. One of the most repeated things I heard from my earliest age was that some worker had told my grandparents to follow him only as far as he was following the Lord, and if they found he wasn't following the Lord, to no follow him any more. I guess that is what prevented me from falling into the trap of: the workers are underwriting my salvation. I never got in a fit if one of the friends got way off base -- humans are subject to those kinds of possibilities. I never even lost sleep over a worker coming to Sunday meeting with a hangover -- humans are subject to those kinds of possibilities. What I could not abide was workers lying to and about the friends, and lying to and about each other, and sending young people to jail for misdemeanors while sheltering each other from prosecution for major serious felonies. That's not the result of simple human failure -- that is the indication that there is "them" and "me"; and "they" are always going to be right, and "I" a stupid enough to believe "I" don't need to know why. They can go blow their smoke up someone else's ... ! not to belittle your experience bob but what you've said reminds me of these verses... Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 14, 2014 20:46:28 GMT -5
One of the most repeated things I heard from my earliest age was that some worker had told my grandparents to follow him only as far as he was following the Lord, and if they found he wasn't following the Lord, to no follow him any more. I guess that is what prevented me from falling into the trap of: the workers are underwriting my salvation. I never got in a fit if one of the friends got way off base -- humans are subject to those kinds of possibilities. I never even lost sleep over a worker coming to Sunday meeting with a hangover -- humans are subject to those kinds of possibilities. What I could not abide was workers lying to and about the friends, and lying to and about each other, and sending young people to jail for misdemeanors while sheltering each other from prosecution for major serious felonies. That's not the result of simple human failure -- that is the indication that there is "them" and "me"; and "they" are always going to be right, and "I" a stupid enough to believe "I" don't need to know why. They can go blow their smoke up someone else's ... ! not to belittle your experience bob but what you've said reminds me of these verses... Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. I don't really know what you mean. What are you referring to as the "word"?
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