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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2014 18:07:48 GMT -5
There seems to be a belief amongst some of the Friends & Workers that the workers are modern day Apostles. Is this Scriptural or is it something that the workers have preached over the years that people now believe ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2014 18:09:24 GMT -5
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible Ephesians 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto, the sons of men,.... That is, which mystery of Christ, and of the Gospel, was not made known to men in general, nor so clearly as under the Gospel dispensation. Some hints were given of it to Adam, immediately after his fall; and the Gospel was before preached to Abraham, Moses, and David, and others knew something of it; and it was still more fully dispensed in the times of the prophet Isaiah, and other following prophets: but then the knowledge of it was not so extensive, nor so clear as now; it lay hid in types and shadows, in obscure prophecies and short hints. Moreover, this may have respect particularly to the calling of the Gentiles, as appears from the following words; this was, in some measure, made known, as that in Christ all the nations of the earth should be blessed; that when Shiloh came, to him should the gathering of the people be; that the Messiah should be an ensign of the people, and to him should the Gentiles seek; that he should be the covenant of the people, and a leader and a commander of them; and that there should be great flockings to him; but then this was not known to many, and the time, mode, and circumstances of it were but little understood, and comparatively speaking, it was not known: however, it was not so known,
as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the spirit. The apostles and prophets were the superior officers in the Gospel dispensation; the former design the twelve apostles of Christ, and the latter such who had the gift of interpreting the prophecies of the Old Testament, and of foretelling things to come, having received gifts from Christ to fit them for such offices, some apostles, some prophets; and to these a revelation was made of the mystery of the Gospel in general, and of the calling of the Gentiles in particular, by the Spirit, who searches the deep things of God, and reveals them, and leads into all truth; and who, by falling upon the Gentiles, as upon Cornelius and his family, and by the success which he gave to the Gospel in the Gentile world, made their calling clear and manifest. The Complutensian edition reads, "by the Holy Spirit"; and so the Arabic and Ethiopic versions.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2014 18:10:35 GMT -5
The apostles in the Bible were given the title “Apostle” under two distinct criteria: They had been directly chosen and commissioned by Jesus. In other words, they were not self proclaimed or self appointed. And the other criteria is that they had actually seen the risen Lord. We see this very clearly in Acts 1 when the 11 apostles had to appoint another apostle to replace Judas. They stated in v. 21 that they had to choose somebody who had been with Jesus and who had seen Him after He resurrected. We also see Paul emphatically defend his position of apostleship by stating that the Lord had indeed appeared to him and commissioned him as an apostle. Do you realize the power and authority that the apostles had? They raised the dead. They passed by people so that even just their shadow brought God’s healing to those who were sick. They casted out demons. Yes, I know what you are thinking if you’re anything like me. You might be saying, “Well, modern day apostles claim to do all of those things. Haven’t you ever heard of the hankerchiefs that Benny Hinn sells so that people can be healed? Haven’t you ever been at revival meetings where demons were casted out of people and where the lame walked?” So, yes, I have heard of such things and I also have been at such meetings where those things were said to have occurred. So, how can I then refute these modern day apostles? Perhaps they would tell me that they, like Paul, were visited by the risen Lord in a vision and were appointed to the office of apostleship. No problem. Here is what we’re going to do…In addition to the first two criteria, which we already see that no modern day apostle really meets, we will also put them through two more criteria. From above link; www.howcantheyhear.org/2012/06/are-there-really-modern-day-apostles/
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2014 20:08:04 GMT -5
virgo Avatar
Nov 22, 2014 at 7:07pm virgo said: and with all that Paul still considered himself a worker in God's service
Of course Paul was an apostle he seen Jesus ! Considering himself a worker in Gods service is NOT the same as saying he was "A Worker" !
"The apostles and prophets were the superior officers in the Gospel dispensation; the former design the twelve apostles of Christ, and the latter such who had the gift of interpreting the prophecies of the Old Testament, and of foretelling things to come, having received gifts from Christ to fit them for such offices, some apostles, some prophets; and to these a revelation was made of the mystery of the Gospel in general, and of the calling of the Gentiles in particular, by the Spirit,"
Virgo Said : isn't it? "a worker" in God's service there is none superiour officers in the gospel dispensation that is just mans thinking all are bought to the same level by the spirit, all brothers and sisters in Christ by the will of God but if you can prove Christ has made some superiour over others by His spirit i will gladly see it
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2014 20:14:22 GMT -5
virgo Avatar Nov 22, 2014 at 4:44pm virgo said: funny he made out he was 2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. Virgo are you saying that the above verse means Paul was a "worker" as in "The Workers" of the Fellowship ? Virgo said ; yup anyone who is sent by God to preach the word of God down through the ages is a worker/preacher/apostle
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 20:14:17 GMT -5
virgo Avatar Nov 22, 2014 at 7:07pm virgo said: and with all that Paul still considered himself a worker in God's service Of course Paul was an apostle he seen Jesus ! Considering himself a worker in Gods service is NOT the same as saying he was "A Worker" ! "The apostles and prophets were the superior officers in the Gospel dispensation; the former design the twelve apostles of Christ, and the latter such who had the gift of interpreting the prophecies of the Old Testament, and of foretelling things to come, having received gifts from Christ to fit them for such offices, some apostles, some prophets; and to these a revelation was made of the mystery of the Gospel in general, and of the calling of the Gentiles in particular, by the Spirit," Virgo Said : isn't it? "a worker" in God's service there is none superiour officers in the gospel dispensation that is just mans thinking all are bought to the same level by the spirit, all brothers and sisters in Christ by the will of God but if you can prove Christ has made some superiour over others by His spirit i will gladly see it considering the way Jesus setup the church it would be pretty hard for it to continue after his death dont you think if you had to see Jesus to become an apostle...
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 23, 2014 20:16:17 GMT -5
Wally wrote: Jesus setup the church.
Could you please supply your supporting scripture for this statement? Tnx
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 20:32:22 GMT -5
Wally wrote: Jesus setup the church. Could you please supply your supporting scripture for this statement? Tnx Luk_10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. here jesus is clearly setting up they way to preach the word Mat_10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. here jesus assigned them powers to the twelve Mat_10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: here jesus directed them where to go... Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. here jesus shows how to handle rebellious persons Mar_6:7 And he called unto him the twelve, and began to send them forth by two and two; and gave them power over unclean spirits; here again jesus is showing how they should go out Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. read the rest of chapter 10 here we have Peter being instructed to go unto the gentiles and on and on i could retype the whole new testament but i'm not going to its all there you just have to read it....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 20:38:51 GMT -5
No Wally, you need PAPERS, DOCUMENTS, bones of the Apostles, even the Golden Chalice. You need a GENEALOGY OF THE WORKERS, right back to Saint Peter - the First Worker. And then you can appeal to people - not through the Gospel, but by documents, icons, totems and relics. You WON'T GET THE SAME PEOPLE, BUT YOU SURE WILL PACK IN THE CURIOUS AND THE LEGALISTS.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2014 20:58:08 GMT -5
No Wally, you need PAPERS, DOCUMENTS, bones of the Apostles, even the Golden Chalice. You need a GENEALOGY OF THE WORKERS, right back to Saint Peter - the First Worker. And then you can appeal to people - not through the Gospel, but by documents, icons, totems and relics. You WON'T GET THE SAME PEOPLE, BUT YOU SURE WILL PACK IN THE CURIOUS AND THE LEGALISTS. Bert are you contradicting what you said on another thread by any chance ?
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Post by Scott Ross on Nov 23, 2014 21:00:01 GMT -5
No Wally, you need PAPERS, DOCUMENTS, bones of the Apostles, even the Golden Chalice. You need a GENEALOGY OF THE WORKERS, right back to Saint Peter - the First Worker. And then you can appeal to people - not through the Gospel, but by documents, icons, totems and relics. You WON'T GET THE SAME PEOPLE, BUT YOU SURE WILL PACK IN THE CURIOUS AND THE LEGALISTS. In regard to workers..... I am sure you realize that there is no documentation that shows them going back very far. There ARE lists showing just how long that they have been around though. I imagine that you have read them. Most normal churches appeal to people through scripture, not through promoting their preachers as being what is important for salvation, nor the importance of where they worship, or any other man made doctrine.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 23, 2014 21:25:36 GMT -5
Roz The reason I dont believe the workers are apostles is they havent produced the fruit of an apostle.
Sure they have planted churches. They have some giftings. It takes yrs for god to prepare an apostle.They deny the power of god. They dont disciple. Lay hands on the sick. Anoint. Pray for healing and deliverance. Fundamentally I dont see that they pray the way the early apostles did nor do they move in the revelatory giftings.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2014 21:41:29 GMT -5
No Wally, you need PAPERS, DOCUMENTS, bones of the Apostles, even the Golden Chalice. You need a GENEALOGY OF THE WORKERS, right back to Saint Peter - the First Worker. And then you can appeal to people - not through the Gospel, but by documents, icons, totems and relics. You WON'T GET THE SAME PEOPLE, BUT YOU SURE WILL PACK IN THE CURIOUS AND THE LEGALISTS. Post Options . Post by Bert on Nov 20, 2014 at 8:49pm Quote - "The workers are not Paul ! The workers have not seen Jesus ! Obey those that have the rule over you .... so obey the workers even if they are having affairs with married women or abusing children ? The workers are human Bert the same as everyone else ! They are NOT Apostles !" Bert said : The standard of God's kingdom must be held by all. If any person preaching God's word is not keeping the law then the judgement will be more severe for them than it will be for those didn't know the law. Paul wrote about this, didn't he? And so too did Jesus. And for anyone pointing a finger at someone elses faults and using them to justify their own ..... well, Jesus talked about that attempted loophole, too. Quote - "The workers are not Paul ! The workers have not seen Jesus" Bert said ; As if we don't all know that. What is your point?
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Post by hberry on Nov 23, 2014 21:50:12 GMT -5
No Wally, you need PAPERS, DOCUMENTS, bones of the Apostles, even the Golden Chalice. You need a GENEALOGY OF THE WORKERS, right back to Saint Peter - the First Worker. And then you can appeal to people - not through the Gospel, but by documents, icons, totems and relics. You WON'T GET THE SAME PEOPLE, BUT YOU SURE WILL PACK IN THE CURIOUS AND THE LEGALISTS. In regard to workers..... I am sure you realize that there is no documentation that shows them going back very far. There ARE lists showing just how long that they have been around though. I imagine that you have read them. Most normal churches appeal to people through scripture, not through promoting their preachers as being what is important for salvation, nor the importance of where they worship, or any other man made doctrine. Amen, Scott. It's been such a joy to simply hear the scriptures taught clearly!
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 23, 2014 22:06:39 GMT -5
Wally - the scriptures you gave are nearly all about a short-term tour Jesus sent 12 and 70 disciples on in a specified area, with a specific message to a specific people. The disciples went ahead of Jesus to herald Jesus arrival in pairs bcs that was the way reports were confirmed in those days (by 2 witnesses). They preached no more than 4 to 6 weeks and returned to him. He then changed his instructions in Luke 2:35-36--edited to Luke 22:35-36:
And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
I dont see Jesus setting up a church in the verses you gave. The word translated "church" in the English KJV NT was the Greek word for "assembly", but King James insisted they call it "church." It was one of his requirements to the translators.
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 23, 2014 22:11:23 GMT -5
The Present Day 2 by 2 Apostles: Tommy Gamble, Current Overseer of Ireland and H. McKnight October 28, 2010
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 22:13:51 GMT -5
Wally - the scriptures you gave are nearly all about a short-term tour Jesus sent 12 and 70 disciples on in a specified area, with a specific message to a specific people. The disciples went ahead of Jesus to herald Jesus arrival in pairs bcs that was the way reports were confirmed in those days (by 2 witnesses). They preached no more than 4 to 6 weeks and returned to him. He then changed his instructions in Luke 2:35-36: And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.I dont see Jesus setting up a church in the verses you gave. The word translated "church" in the English KJV NT was the Greek word for "assembly", but King James insisted they call it "church." It was one of his requirements to the translators. ummm luke 2 is still when he was a baby...i think you mean luke 22....there is nothing in those verse that says it was a 4-6 week temporary mission....
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 23, 2014 22:21:00 GMT -5
The Present Day 2 by 2 Apostles: Tommy Gamble, Current Overseer of Ireland and H. McKnight October 28, 2010 View Attachment Thanks Cherie, I think that answers the question !
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 23, 2014 23:06:32 GMT -5
Wally - the scriptures you gave are nearly all about a short-term tour Jesus sent 12 and 70 disciples on in a specified area, with a specific message to a specific people. The disciples went ahead of Jesus to herald Jesus arrival in pairs bcs that was the way reports were confirmed in those days (by 2 witnesses). They preached no more than 4 to 6 weeks and returned to him. He then changed his instructions in Luke 2:35-36: And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.I dont see Jesus setting up a church in the verses you gave. The word translated "church" in the English KJV NT was the Greek word for "assembly", but King James insisted they call it "church." It was one of his requirements to the translators. ummm luke 2 is still when he was a baby...i think you mean luke 22....there is nothing in those verse that says it was a 4-6 week temporary mission.... You're right It is Luke 22. It doesnt come right out and say how long they were out preaching. To figure out how long the disciples were on their mission tour, one must study the public ministry of Jesus in chronological order. Jesus went on 3 mission tours. It can be seen in see in some NT Gospel Parallels and Harmony of the Gospels. Also, in timelines for Jesus public ministry--sometimes these are in the back of Bibles. You can also google it. I was shocked when I found out it was such a short mission tour. And I really enjoy studying about Jesus life and ministry in chronological order. The SELECTION of the Twelve was approximately THREE (3) years after Jesus started His public ministry. And then Jesus did NOT immediately send them out preaching in pairs on their own. Only the FOUR fishermen (Peter, Andrew, John and James) traveled with Jesus on Tour No. 1. Three years into Jesus public ministry, the TWELVE went WITH Him in training on Tour Nos. 2 and 3 around Galilee. There was SIX MONTHS between the time they were chosen and the time they were sent out solo on a preaching mission. And then they returned shortly and spent the rest of Jesus’ lifetime with him 24/7, observing and being taught and trained.
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Post by emy on Nov 23, 2014 23:10:59 GMT -5
Wally - the scriptures you gave are nearly all about a short-term tour Jesus sent 12 and 70 disciples on in a specified area, with a specific message to a specific people. The disciples went ahead of Jesus to herald Jesus arrival in pairs bcs that was the way reports were confirmed in those days (by 2 witnesses). They preached no more than 4 to 6 weeks and returned to him. He then changed his instructions in Luke 2:35-36: And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.I dont see Jesus setting up a church in the verses you gave. The word translated "church" in the English KJV NT was the Greek word for "assembly", but King James insisted they call it "church." It was one of his requirements to the translators. Matt. 16:18 ...I will build my church... Church, assembly, congregation, what difference does the word make? It's a group of people, and Jesus' prayer was that they would be ONE with him and his Father.
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Post by Mary on Nov 23, 2014 23:36:37 GMT -5
Yep, apostles healed the sick, cast out demons and the other things that the workers do not do. If the workers were modern day apostles they would do the works that apostles did.
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Post by Mary on Nov 23, 2014 23:39:22 GMT -5
The pastors are pastors not apostles.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 0:06:37 GMT -5
No Wally, you need PAPERS, DOCUMENTS, bones of the Apostles, even the Golden Chalice. You need a GENEALOGY OF THE WORKERS, right back to Saint Peter - the First Worker. And then you can appeal to people - not through the Gospel, but by documents, icons, totems and relics. You WON'T GET THE SAME PEOPLE, BUT YOU SURE WILL PACK IN THE CURIOUS AND THE LEGALISTS. and here i was relying on the Holy Spirit to reveal said things to me, just goes to show how wrong one can be
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 24, 2014 1:32:02 GMT -5
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Post by fred on Nov 24, 2014 1:48:12 GMT -5
In regard to workers..... I am sure you realize that there is no documentation that shows them going back very far. There ARE lists showing just how long that they have been around though. I imagine that you have read them. Most normal churches appeal to people through scripture, not through promoting their preachers as being what is important for salvation, nor the importance of where they worship, or any other man made doctrine. Amen, Scott. It's been such a joy to simply hear the scriptures taught clearly! I remember the first time I listened to a well known bible teacher online, working through the first chapters of Galations, tears of joy trickling down my face. I had never heard anything like it. Recently a worker at convention started on Galations 2, it was quite inspiring but didn't give the sense of why the letter was written. He concentrated on breaking down the wall of separation.
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Post by Mary on Nov 24, 2014 4:48:49 GMT -5
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers.
People have different gifts while some have different ones at different times. e.g. an evangelist might settle down and become a pastor. The roles are quite distinct in Eph 4. Like I said Nathan, the pastor you mentioned that handled a snake was a pastor and not an apostle.
The way I see it apostle was those chosen by Jesus plus Paul called himself an apostle.
A prophet is not a pastor or evangelist and vice versa. An evangelist is a person who travels preaching the Gospel usually to win converts. A pastor shepard's the existing flock. Note; it says pastor and teacher, a pastor is also a teacher. A prophet is a person who foretells a message. They are distinct roles in ministry.
Also note the word worker is not used in Eph 4 church ministry. Again that was one of the things that made me realise the workers ministry was not like the church in the New Testament.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 5:11:23 GMT -5
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers. People have different gifts while some have different ones at different times. e.g. an evangelist might settle down and become a pastor. The roles are quite distinct in Eph 4. Like I said Nathan, the pastor you mentioned that handled a snake was a pastor and not an apostle. The way I see it apostle was those chosen by Jesus plus Paul called himself an apostle. A prophet is not a pastor or evangelist and vice versa. An evangelist is a person who travels preaching the Gospel usually to win converts. A pastor shepard's the existing flock. Note; it says pastor and teacher, a pastor is also a teacher. A prophet is a person who foretells a message. They are distinct roles in ministry. Also note the word worker is not used in Eph 4 church ministry. Again that was one of the things that made me realise the workers ministry was not like the church in the New Testament. Every true Christian is a "Worker" or Labourer according to Matthew 20: 1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers (workers) into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers (workers) for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers (workers), and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
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Post by snow on Nov 24, 2014 17:45:18 GMT -5
virgo Avatar Nov 22, 2014 at 7:07pm virgo said: and with all that Paul still considered himself a worker in God's service Of course Paul was an apostle he seen Jesus ! Considering himself a worker in Gods service is NOT the same as saying he was "A Worker" ! "The apostles and prophets were the superior officers in the Gospel dispensation; the former design the twelve apostles of Christ, and the latter such who had the gift of interpreting the prophecies of the Old Testament, and of foretelling things to come, having received gifts from Christ to fit them for such offices, some apostles, some prophets; and to these a revelation was made of the mystery of the Gospel in general, and of the calling of the Gentiles in particular, by the Spirit," Virgo Said : isn't it? "a worker" in God's service there is none superiour officers in the gospel dispensation that is just mans thinking all are bought to the same level by the spirit, all brothers and sisters in Christ by the will of God but if you can prove Christ has made some superiour over others by His spirit i will gladly see it considering the way Jesus setup the church it would be pretty hard for it to continue after his death dont you think if you had to see Jesus to become an apostle... Why? Paul claims to have seen Jesus so if he is to be believed, I'm sure Jesus could show himself to each and everyone he chooses to spread his word. He is God after all. Should be able to do something as simple as that.
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