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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 13:56:40 GMT -5
Snow stated: I guess I understand this quote of yours to be pretty sure you know where Billy Graham is going. " IMO Billy is heading for the "I never knew you." I see him as one of the other guy's "angels of light." He deceives many." You do say in your opinion, but it seems pretty 'sure' too me. So I was wondering what has changed for you that you would state in such surety that BG is hell bound? I know Wally and Nathan also say this about non believers, but I don't remember you doing this before. Am I wrong in getting that message from that quote? Also, it wasn't an accusation. I was asking a question.Snow, it is not for me to make the final judgment of a person's eternal destiny. That lies with God who has entrusted that to his Son Jesus. However, based upon the fact that it is fairly simple to show from what scripture clearly states, that Billy Graham is a false teacher and that scripture also clearly states what the eternal destiny of false teachers is, we are led to only one possible conclusion......unless Mr Graham truly repents. It is what the Word of God says, not what I say. My job is to believe in the Word of God. If I believed otherwise, I would not believe the Word of God. It is not I who is judging Billy Graham et al, they condemn themselves when measured against the scriptures. Ya, that's pretty much what Nathan and Wally say too. We don't judge, but.... Actually, there is another option. Don't believe the scriptures or have anything to do with a god like that. I know you don't like those options, but they are options. It's all good Ram. Just haven't heard it from you before. That's what it boils down to Snow. Belief or unbelief in the scriptures. "Doth a man hoe his garden to promote weeds or for profit?" Bert.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2014 13:59:42 GMT -5
Nathan, I am not going to keep repeating myself by addressing the same verses taken out of context over and over again. Now I know why you readily absorb other things the way you do.
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Post by Gene on Dec 4, 2014 19:22:56 GMT -5
Snow stated: I guess I understand this quote of yours to be pretty sure you know where Billy Graham is going. " IMO Billy is heading for the "I never knew you." I see him as one of the other guy's "angels of light." He deceives many." You do say in your opinion, but it seems pretty 'sure' too me. So I was wondering what has changed for you that you would state in such surety that BG is hell bound? I know Wally and Nathan also say this about non believers, but I don't remember you doing this before. Am I wrong in getting that message from that quote? Also, it wasn't an accusation. I was asking a question.Snow, it is not for me to make the final judgment of a person's eternal destiny. That lies with God who has entrusted that to his Son Jesus. However, based upon the fact that it is fairly simple to show from what scripture clearly states, that Billy Graham is a false teacher and that scripture also clearly states what the eternal destiny of false teachers is, we are led to only one possible conclusion......unless Mr Graham truly repents. It is what the Word of God says, not what I say. My job is to believe in the Word of God. If I believed otherwise, I would not believe the Word of God. It is not I who is judging Billy Graham et al, they condemn themselves when measured against the scriptures. Horsefeathers, Ram. I call BS on you. Be a man and stand up for what you believe. This nelly little squalling about people accusing you of saying something you didn't say is just pathetic. You clearly believe BG is a false prophet and you clearly believe false prophets are going to hell. Be a man, draw the logical conclusion to the syllogism and say what you mean: you believe BG is going to hell. And guess what? I would not think any the less of you for believing BG is going to hell! Or anyone else, for that matter. But just stop bloviating.
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Post by xna on Dec 4, 2014 19:38:10 GMT -5
Insert diatribe here.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 2:49:44 GMT -5
Snow stated: I guess I understand this quote of yours to be pretty sure you know where Billy Graham is going. " IMO Billy is heading for the "I never knew you." I see him as one of the other guy's "angels of light." He deceives many." You do say in your opinion, but it seems pretty 'sure' too me. So I was wondering what has changed for you that you would state in such surety that BG is hell bound? I know Wally and Nathan also say this about non believers, but I don't remember you doing this before. Am I wrong in getting that message from that quote? Also, it wasn't an accusation. I was asking a question.Snow, it is not for me to make the final judgment of a person's eternal destiny. That lies with God who has entrusted that to his Son Jesus. However, based upon the fact that it is fairly simple to show from what scripture clearly states, that Billy Graham is a false teacher and that scripture also clearly states what the eternal destiny of false teachers is, we are led to only one possible conclusion......unless Mr Graham truly repents. It is what the Word of God says, not what I say. My job is to believe in the Word of God. If I believed otherwise, I would not believe the Word of God. It is not I who is judging Billy Graham et al, they condemn themselves when measured against the scriptures. Horsefeathers, Ram. I call BS on you. Be a man and stand up for what you believe. This nelly little squalling about people accusing you of saying something you didn't say is just pathetic. You clearly believe BG is a false prophet and you clearly believe false prophets are going to hell. Be a man, draw the logical conclusion to the syllogism and say what you mean: you believe BG is going to hell. And guess what? I would not think any the less of you for believing BG is going to hell! Or anyone else, for that matter. But just stop bloviating. Gene, my dear friend. Whilst God's word can lead us to some very clear conclusions, we must be very careful as to where the judgment of a man's ultimately destiny lies. It does not even lie with God the Father, far less myself! It is the job of Jesus Christ to determine the eternal fate of Mr Graham et al. John 5:22 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son."
I'm afraid the term "all judgment" excludes me! Before I can make eternal judgment on another, I must first be eternally judged myself!
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Post by Gene on Dec 5, 2014 6:59:30 GMT -5
Horsefeathers, Ram. I call BS on you. Be a man and stand up for what you believe. This nelly little squalling about people accusing you of saying something you didn't say is just pathetic. You clearly believe BG is a false prophet and you clearly believe false prophets are going to hell. Be a man, draw the logical conclusion to the syllogism and say what you mean: you believe BG is going to hell. And guess what? I would not think any the less of you for believing BG is going to hell! Or anyone else, for that matter. But just stop bloviating. Gene, my dear friend. Whilst God's word can lead us to some very clear conclusions, we must be very careful as to where the judgment of a man's ultimately destiny lies. It does not even lie with God the Father, far less myself! It is the job of Jesus Christ to determine the eternal fate of Mr Graham et al. John 5:22 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son."
I'm afraid the term "all judgment" excludes me! Before I can make eternal judgment on another, I must first be eternally judged myself! You can safely state that you believe BG is going to hell without claiming to be the person/entity who passes judgement and sends him to hell. It's the same as me saying I believe that you will be go to prison if you steal your neighbor's horse (assuming an all-seeing, just prosecutor and courts--like God and JC). That doesn't mean I am the person who would pass judgement, shackle you up, and lead you off to jail. It's simply drawing the logical conclusion: If I know what the law is, and I believe the justice system is just, then I can safely say you will go to jail if you steal a horse. You should be able to say the same, based on the beliefs you've stated. Or are you saying that you're not so certain that God/Jesus will actually pass the judgement you believe they have said they will pass? Which, by the way, would introduce a whole new level of doubt into the biblical criminal code and justice system, if that's the case.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2014 12:43:40 GMT -5
Gene, my dear friend. Whilst God's word can lead us to some very clear conclusions, we must be very careful as to where the judgment of a man's ultimately destiny lies. It does not even lie with God the Father, far less myself! It is the job of Jesus Christ to determine the eternal fate of Mr Graham et al. John 5:22 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son."
I'm afraid the term "all judgment" excludes me! Before I can make eternal judgment on another, I must first be eternally judged myself! You can safely state that you believe BG is going to hell without claiming to be the person/entity who passes judgement and sends him to hell. It's the same as me saying I believe that you will be go to prison if you steal your neighbor's horse (assuming an all-seeing, just prosecutor and courts--like God and JC). That doesn't mean I am the person who would pass judgement, shackle you up, and lead you off to jail. It's simply drawing the logical conclusion: If I know what the law is, and I believe the justice system is just, then I can safely say you will go to jail if you steal a horse. You should be able to say the same, based on the beliefs you've stated. Or are you saying that you're not so certain that God/Jesus will actually pass the judgement you believe they have said they will pass? Which, by the way, would introduce a whole new level of doubt into the biblical criminal code and justice system, if that's the case. You are indeed on the right track. The wise investigator collects his evidence carefully and surely and if there appears to be a sufficiency of evidence to convict, then the matter is passed to those who are qualified to judge. However, although the wise investigator knows full well that the case he has assembled may "appear" to be sufficient to secure a conviction, nothing is taken for granted as judgment by those whose job it is, is often contrary to that which is anticipated. The wise investigator will await the outcome of the judgment. It is not his call. Judgments made by the investigator are for accusation purposes, not for final outcome. Based upon the evidence that I am aware of, I can only state that BG's eternal security (imo) is very much in doubt. Of course the eternal judge looks on the heart and takes all things into consideration. Like God the Father, I leave ultimate judgment to the one whose responsibility it is.
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Post by Gene on Dec 5, 2014 20:18:30 GMT -5
You can safely state that you believe BG is going to hell without claiming to be the person/entity who passes judgement and sends him to hell. It's the same as me saying I believe that you will be go to prison if you steal your neighbor's horse (assuming an all-seeing, just prosecutor and courts--like God and JC). That doesn't mean I am the person who would pass judgement, shackle you up, and lead you off to jail. It's simply drawing the logical conclusion: If I know what the law is, and I believe the justice system is just, then I can safely say you will go to jail if you steal a horse. You should be able to say the same, based on the beliefs you've stated. Or are you saying that you're not so certain that God/Jesus will actually pass the judgement you believe they have said they will pass? Which, by the way, would introduce a whole new level of doubt into the biblical criminal code and justice system, if that's the case. You are indeed on the right track. The wise investigator collects his evidence carefully and surely and if there appears to be a sufficiency of evidence to convict, then the matter is passed to those who are qualified to judge. However, although the wise investigator knows full well that the case he has assembled may "appear" to be sufficient to secure a conviction, nothing is taken for granted as judgment by those whose job it is, is often contrary to that which is anticipated. The wise investigator will await the outcome of the judgment. It is not his call. Judgments made by the investigator are for accusation purposes, not for final outcome. Based upon the evidence that I am aware of, I can only state that BG's eternal security (imo) is very much in doubt. Of course the eternal judge looks on the heart and takes all things into consideration. Like God the Father, I leave ultimate judgment to the one whose responsibility it is. So I hear you saying that, while it is your stated opinion that BG is going to hell, you freely confess that your opinion could be based on either a misinterpretation of scripture, a misunderstanding of BG's heavenly record, or it could be that you simply have an opinion that is contrary to the will and judgement of God. So we can safely discount what you write. That, I can live with.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 5, 2014 22:36:12 GMT -5
You can safely state that you believe BG is going to hell without claiming to be the person/entity who passes judgement and sends him to hell. It's the same as me saying I believe that you will be go to prison if you steal your neighbor's horse (assuming an all-seeing, just prosecutor and courts--like God and JC). That doesn't mean I am the person who would pass judgement, shackle you up, and lead you off to jail. It's simply drawing the logical conclusion: If I know what the law is, and I believe the justice system is just, then I can safely say you will go to jail if you steal a horse. You should be able to say the same, based on the beliefs you've stated. Or are you saying that you're not so certain that God/Jesus will actually pass the judgement you believe they have said they will pass? Which, by the way, would introduce a whole new level of doubt into the biblical criminal code and justice system, if that's the case. You are indeed on the right track. The wise investigator collects his evidence carefully and surely and if there appears to be a sufficiency of evidence to convict, then the matter is passed to those who are qualified to judge. However, although the wise investigator knows full well that the case he has assembled may "appear" to be sufficient to secure a conviction, nothing is taken for granted as judgment by those whose job it is, is often contrary to that which is anticipated. The wise investigator will await the outcome of the judgment. It is not his call. Judgments made by the investigator are for accusation purposes, not for final outcome. Based upon the evidence that I am aware of, I can only state that BG's eternal security (imo) is very much in doubt. Of course the eternal judge looks on the heart and takes all things into consideration. Like God the Father, I leave ultimate judgment to the one whose responsibility it is. Evidence is not proof.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 0:10:15 GMT -5
You are indeed on the right track. The wise investigator collects his evidence carefully and surely and if there appears to be a sufficiency of evidence to convict, then the matter is passed to those who are qualified to judge. However, although the wise investigator knows full well that the case he has assembled may "appear" to be sufficient to secure a conviction, nothing is taken for granted as judgment by those whose job it is, is often contrary to that which is anticipated. The wise investigator will await the outcome of the judgment. It is not his call. Judgments made by the investigator are for accusation purposes, not for final outcome. Based upon the evidence that I am aware of, I can only state that BG's eternal security (imo) is very much in doubt. Of course the eternal judge looks on the heart and takes all things into consideration. Like God the Father, I leave ultimate judgment to the one whose responsibility it is. Evidence is not proof. yeah but Evidence is the means to proof isn't it?
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 6, 2014 0:25:48 GMT -5
yeah but Evidence is the means to proof isn't it? Possibly. Never guaranteed.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 2:53:07 GMT -5
You are indeed on the right track. The wise investigator collects his evidence carefully and surely and if there appears to be a sufficiency of evidence to convict, then the matter is passed to those who are qualified to judge. However, although the wise investigator knows full well that the case he has assembled may "appear" to be sufficient to secure a conviction, nothing is taken for granted as judgment by those whose job it is, is often contrary to that which is anticipated. The wise investigator will await the outcome of the judgment. It is not his call. Judgments made by the investigator are for accusation purposes, not for final outcome. Based upon the evidence that I am aware of, I can only state that BG's eternal security (imo) is very much in doubt. Of course the eternal judge looks on the heart and takes all things into consideration. Like God the Father, I leave ultimate judgment to the one whose responsibility it is. So I hear you saying that, while it is your stated opinion that BG is going to hell, you freely confess that your opinion could be based on either a misinterpretation of scripture, a misunderstanding of BG's heavenly record, or it could be that you simply have an opinion that is contrary to the will and judgement of God. So we can safely discount what you write. That, I can live with. Clearly Gene, you are putting interpretations on my words which you want to believe. My stated opinion is that BG's eternal security is very much in doubt. Go back and read what I actually wrote! I do not know the man personally. I can only go by the public image of his ministry and beliefs. I measure this against scripture and the two do not correlate. Quite considerably I may add. What am I meant to think? Feel free to safely discount what I write, but like always I would ask you to measure my words against scripture first.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 2:55:36 GMT -5
yeah but Evidence is the means to proof isn't it? Proof is simply a judgment of facts and circumstances, e.g. "Proof beyond reasonable doubt, and "Proof on the balance of probabilities, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 2:57:52 GMT -5
You are indeed on the right track. The wise investigator collects his evidence carefully and surely and if there appears to be a sufficiency of evidence to convict, then the matter is passed to those who are qualified to judge. However, although the wise investigator knows full well that the case he has assembled may "appear" to be sufficient to secure a conviction, nothing is taken for granted as judgment by those whose job it is, is often contrary to that which is anticipated. The wise investigator will await the outcome of the judgment. It is not his call. Judgments made by the investigator are for accusation purposes, not for final outcome. Based upon the evidence that I am aware of, I can only state that BG's eternal security (imo) is very much in doubt. Of course the eternal judge looks on the heart and takes all things into consideration. Like God the Father, I leave ultimate judgment to the one whose responsibility it is. Evidence is not proof. Proof is established by the evidence of facts and circumstances. There are various standards of proof. See my response to Wally. Eg The evidence of Mr Graham's beliefs and ministry, which do not line up with what the scriptures teach, thus prove he is a false teacher. Is it absolute proof, proof beyond reasonable doubt or proof on the balance of probabilities, etc? Those who examine Mr Graham against the Word of God will arrive at their own judgment.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 6, 2014 6:17:14 GMT -5
Proof is established by the evidence of facts and circumstances. There are various standards of proof. See my response to Wally. Eg The evidence of Mr Graham's beliefs and ministry, which do not line up with what the scriptures teach, thus prove he is a false teacher. Is it absolute proof, proof beyond reasonable doubt or proof on the balance of probabilities, etc? Those who examine Mr Graham against the Word of God will arrive at their own judgment. Why ask for absolute truth? Humans do not have that. Your whole argument rests on the premise that the Bible is literal and factual in all truth. However, that statement is at best a statement of faith, complicated by the necessity of interpretation, and moreover is both inconsistent in its "witnessing", and demonstrably errant in facts. Judgments of people made on that kind of basis are as reliable as the ones that come out of Ferguson and Staten Island .... unfortunately. DNA is more reliable evidence than any theologian's pronouncements, and even DNA is never enough. On the other hand, if one believes in miracles, proof beyond a reasonable doubt is never proof of anything; and proof on the balance of possibilities can be dispensed with. FWIW
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Post by Gene on Dec 6, 2014 7:03:36 GMT -5
So I hear you saying that, while it is your stated opinion that BG is going to hell, you freely confess that your opinion could be based on either a misinterpretation of scripture, a misunderstanding of BG's heavenly record, or it could be that you simply have an opinion that is contrary to the will and judgement of God. So we can safely discount what you write. That, I can live with. Clearly Gene, you are putting interpretations on my words which you want to believe. My stated opinion is that BG's eternal security is very much in doubt. Go back and read what I actually wrote! I do not know the man personally. I can only go by the public image of his ministry and beliefs. I measure this against scripture and the two do not correlate. Quite considerably I may add. What am I meant to think? Feel free to safely discount what I write, but like always I would ask you to measure my words against scripture first. The words in red above ("your stated opinion") link to what you actually wrote! It appears you are retracting that opinion and softening it to "very much in doubt."
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 12:46:19 GMT -5
Clearly Gene, you are putting interpretations on my words which you want to believe. My stated opinion is that BG's eternal security is very much in doubt. Go back and read what I actually wrote! I do not know the man personally. I can only go by the public image of his ministry and beliefs. I measure this against scripture and the two do not correlate. Quite considerably I may add. What am I meant to think? Feel free to safely discount what I write, but like always I would ask you to measure my words against scripture first. The words in red above ("your stated opinion") link to what you actually wrote! It appears you are retracting that opinion and softening it to "very much in doubt." Words in red? I must be colour blind? Anyway Gene. In order to put forward another attempt at getting you to understand my position, I will tell you a bedtime story. "Once upon a time there were two men who were very bad, because they took things which didn't belong to them, from other people. They were so bad that they were very naughty.
Then one day these two men got caught and their bad deeds were looked into and eventually they were told they had been very, very bad and they were put in jail and then told they were both going to be made dead by being nailed to a wooden cross. This was the punishment for people who had been very bad like these two bad men.
Now these two men were to die for their badness and as stealing is such a bad thing it meant these two men would never get into Heaven. This is how it appeared to everyone who watched these two men die a slow and very painful death. But one of these bad men was very sorry for all of his bad ways. In fact he was very, very, very sorry, and he saw a third man who was also nailed to a cross beside him, who was innocent and claimed to be the Son of God and this bad man believed that was who this innocent man was.
Anyway, this bad man realised that he and his bad friend deserved to die for their badness and not only that, to be also sent to the bad place afterwards. By this time he was very frightened of what was going to happen to him next and he turned to the other bad man (who wanted the innocent man to get them down from their crosses) and he said "do you not fear God."
The other bad man didn't answer him because he just wanted down from his cross. He was not very sorry at all for the bad things that he had done. Anyway the first bad man asked the innocent man who he believed to be the Son of God, if he could be forgiven for having been very, very naughty. Despite this bad man deserving to die (by his own admission) and to go to the very bad place, the innocent man forgave him his badness and told him he would be going to paradise.
Now, everybody who saw these two very bad men die, thought they were going to the very bad place because that is what usually happens to people who do the sort of things they had done, but at the last minute, because the first bad man was very, very, very sorry for what he had done and put his faith in the innocent man, he did not go to the bad place.!"
Do you see how complicated things can be? Not everything which seems to be, is!
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Post by Gene on Dec 6, 2014 12:50:51 GMT -5
The words in red above ("your stated opinion") link to what you actually wrote! It appears you are retracting that opinion and softening it to "very much in doubt." Words in red? I must be colour blind? Anyway Gene. In order to put forward another attempt at getting you to understand my position, I will tell you a bedtime story. "Once upon a time there were two men who were very bad, because they took things which didn't belong to them from other people. They were so bad that they were very naughty.
Then one day these two men were caught and their bad deeds were looked into and eventually they were told they had been very, very bad and they were put in jail and then told they were going to be made dead by being nailed on a wooden cross. This was the punishment for people who had been very bad like these two bad men.
Now these two men were to die for their badness and as stealing is such a bad thing it meant these two men would never get into Heaven. This is how it appeared to everyone who watched these two men die a slow and very painful death. But one of these bad men was very sorry for all of his bad ways. In fact he was very, very, very sorry, and he saw this other man who was also nailed to a cross beside him who was innocent and claimed to be the Son of God and this bad man believed that was who this innocent man was.
Anyway, this bad man realised that he and his bad friend deserved to die foe their badness and not only that, to be also sent to the bad place afterwards. By this time he was very frightened of what was going to happen to him next and he turned to the other bad man (who wanted the innocent man to get them down from their crosses) and he said "do you not fear God."
The other bad man didn't answer him because he just wanted down from his cross. He was not very sorry at all for the bad things that he had done. Anyway the first man asked the innocent man who he believed to be the Son of God, and asked if he could be forgiven for having been very, very naughty. Despite this bad man deserving to die (by his own admission) and to go to the very bad place, the innocent man forgave him his badness and told him he would be going to paradise.
Now, everybody who saw these two very bad men die thought they were going to the very bad place because that is what usually happens to people who do the sort of things they had done, but at the last minute, because the first bad man was very, very, very sorry for what he had done and put his faith in the innocent man, he did not go to the bad place.!"
Do you see how complicated things can be? May I please have some milk and cookies with my bedtime story?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 13:00:35 GMT -5
Words in red? I must be colour blind? Anyway Gene. In order to put forward another attempt at getting you to understand my position, I will tell you a bedtime story. "Once upon a time there were two men who were very bad, because they took things which didn't belong to them from other people. They were so bad that they were very naughty.
Then one day these two men were caught and their bad deeds were looked into and eventually they were told they had been very, very bad and they were put in jail and then told they were going to be made dead by being nailed on a wooden cross. This was the punishment for people who had been very bad like these two bad men.
Now these two men were to die for their badness and as stealing is such a bad thing it meant these two men would never get into Heaven. This is how it appeared to everyone who watched these two men die a slow and very painful death. But one of these bad men was very sorry for all of his bad ways. In fact he was very, very, very sorry, and he saw this other man who was also nailed to a cross beside him who was innocent and claimed to be the Son of God and this bad man believed that was who this innocent man was.
Anyway, this bad man realised that he and his bad friend deserved to die foe their badness and not only that, to be also sent to the bad place afterwards. By this time he was very frightened of what was going to happen to him next and he turned to the other bad man (who wanted the innocent man to get them down from their crosses) and he said "do you not fear God."
The other bad man didn't answer him because he just wanted down from his cross. He was not very sorry at all for the bad things that he had done. Anyway the first man asked the innocent man who he believed to be the Son of God, and asked if he could be forgiven for having been very, very naughty. Despite this bad man deserving to die (by his own admission) and to go to the very bad place, the innocent man forgave him his badness and told him he would be going to paradise.
Now, everybody who saw these two very bad men die thought they were going to the very bad place because that is what usually happens to people who do the sort of things they had done, but at the last minute, because the first bad man was very, very, very sorry for what he had done and put his faith in the innocent man, he did not go to the bad place.!"
Do you see how complicated things can be? May I please have some milk and cookies with my bedtime story? You are most welcome my friend. Now you know exactly why my friends never suffer from insomnia! ps I understand the "other" bad man went to the very bad place!
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Post by snow on Dec 6, 2014 13:11:03 GMT -5
The words in red above ("your stated opinion") link to what you actually wrote! It appears you are retracting that opinion and softening it to "very much in doubt." Words in red? I must be colour blind? Anyway Gene. In order to put forward another attempt at getting you to understand my position, I will tell you a bedtime story. "Once upon a time there were two men who were very bad, because they took things which didn't belong to them, from other people. They were so bad that they were very naughty.
Then one day these two men got caught and their bad deeds were looked into and eventually they were told they had been very, very bad and they were put in jail and then told they were both going to be made dead by being nailed to a wooden cross. This was the punishment for people who had been very bad like these two bad men.
Now these two men were to die for their badness and as stealing is such a bad thing it meant these two men would never get into Heaven. This is how it appeared to everyone who watched these two men die a slow and very painful death. But one of these bad men was very sorry for all of his bad ways. In fact he was very, very, very sorry, and he saw a third man who was also nailed to a cross beside him, who was innocent and claimed to be the Son of God and this bad man believed that was who this innocent man was.
Anyway, this bad man realised that he and his bad friend deserved to die for their badness and not only that, to be also sent to the bad place afterwards. By this time he was very frightened of what was going to happen to him next and he turned to the other bad man (who wanted the innocent man to get them down from their crosses) and he said "do you not fear God."
The other bad man didn't answer him because he just wanted down from his cross. He was not very sorry at all for the bad things that he had done. Anyway the first bad man asked the innocent man who he believed to be the Son of God, if he could be forgiven for having been very, very naughty. Despite this bad man deserving to die (by his own admission) and to go to the very bad place, the innocent man forgave him his badness and told him he would be going to paradise.
Now, everybody who saw these two very bad men die, thought they were going to the very bad place because that is what usually happens to people who do the sort of things they had done, but at the last minute, because the first bad man was very, very, very sorry for what he had done and put his faith in the innocent man, he did not go to the bad place.!"
Do you see how complicated things can be? Not everything which seems to be, is! Good to see you realize it is just a bed time story Ram...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 13:14:19 GMT -5
Good to see you realize it is just a bed time story Ram...
Ah Snow, didn't you know that bedtime stories were Earthly tales with a Heavenly meaning?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2014 13:21:09 GMT -5
Proof is established by the evidence of facts and circumstances. There are various standards of proof. See my response to Wally. Eg The evidence of Mr Graham's beliefs and ministry, which do not line up with what the scriptures teach, thus prove he is a false teacher. Is it absolute proof, proof beyond reasonable doubt or proof on the balance of probabilities, etc? Those who examine Mr Graham against the Word of God will arrive at their own judgment. Why ask for absolute truth? Humans do not have that. Your whole argument rests on the premise that the Bible is literal and factual in all truth. However, that statement is at best a statement of faith, complicated by the necessity of interpretation, and moreover is both inconsistent in its "witnessing", and demonstrably errant in facts. Judgments of people made on that kind of basis are as reliable as the ones that come out of Ferguson and Staten Island .... unfortunately. DNA is more reliable evidence than any theologian's pronouncements, and even DNA is never enough. On the other hand, if one believes in miracles, proof beyond a reasonable doubt is never proof of anything; and proof on the balance of possibilities can be dispensed with. FWIW The reason I suggested different standards of proof was because people who accept the word of God will be convicted/convinced by these different standards according to how they weigh up the facts against the accepted word of God.
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Post by BobWilliston on Dec 7, 2014 0:08:01 GMT -5
Why ask for absolute truth? Humans do not have that. Your whole argument rests on the premise that the Bible is literal and factual in all truth. However, that statement is at best a statement of faith, complicated by the necessity of interpretation, and moreover is both inconsistent in its "witnessing", and demonstrably errant in facts. Judgments of people made on that kind of basis are as reliable as the ones that come out of Ferguson and Staten Island .... unfortunately. DNA is more reliable evidence than any theologian's pronouncements, and even DNA is never enough. On the other hand, if one believes in miracles, proof beyond a reasonable doubt is never proof of anything; and proof on the balance of possibilities can be dispensed with. FWIW The reason I suggested different standards of proof was because people who accept the word of God will be convicted/convinced by these different standards according to how they weigh up the facts against the accepted word of God. Well, that's true. Religious truth is subject to a consensus of opinion/scholarship.
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