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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2014 11:30:16 GMT -5
... Same with humans I imagine. In comparison to God, we are like 4 year olds making decisions. So is it fair that we are judged and sent to hell for making the wrong choice or needing some proof that God even exists? I don't believe God judges us on whether we're like 4 yr olds making decisions in comparison to Him. He knows if we have sufficient knowledge, or not. He knows if we accept or reject the saving grace He offers that we may come to faith and believe. But as far as I'm concerned, I don't have sufficient knowledge that a God exists. I don't take what man has written as proof. There are so many so called sacred books out there. All of them have their opinion of who and what God is. They are all written by man. How would I ever begin to know which one of the many, if any, of them are the truth? If God wants me to believe in him, he can pay me a visit, we'll sit down and talk and then I will believe he exists and isn't just a creation of man trying to make sense of their world.
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2014 11:39:25 GMT -5
While I agree that would make it simpler, it takes a lot of ignoring of a lot of other qualities he has. And, if you believe in the trinity doctrine, the OT god is also Jesus. That just messes it even more. I have to go by what I understand and that at the moment does not lead to a belief in any God or Jesus being God etc. Jesus had some good ideas, but then so did Buddha. There is no reason to follow Jesus any more than Buddha and in some ways Buddha was wiser than Jesus and more tolerant. I cannot believe in a virgin birth, a death and then a rising from the dead or an ascension into the heavens where he is a God. None of that complies with the laws of nature and I don't see any proof that would make me change my opinion on it. That's how I see belief in any religion. Nothing has any proof that it's true, so you need to suspend rational thinking and just believe in the form of faith. I see no reason to do that. I will not believe in a being that sends anyone to hell for eternity. Why would I worship a being that did that?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 12:18:18 GMT -5
Nathan that that thou dost preach is of thy Father the Devil!
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Post by StAnne on Nov 20, 2014 12:23:47 GMT -5
I don't believe God judges us on whether we're like 4 yr olds making decisions in comparison to Him. He knows if we have sufficient knowledge, or not. He knows if we accept or reject the saving grace He offers that we may come to faith and believe. But as far as I'm concerned, I don't have sufficient knowledge that a God exists. I don't take what man has written as proof. There are so many so called sacred books out there. All of them have their opinion of who and what God is. They are all written by man. How would I ever begin to know which one of the many, if any, of them are the truth? If God wants me to believe in him, he can pay me a visit, we'll sit down and talk and then I will believe he exists and isn't just a creation of man trying to make sense of their world. Not only books. Church. A living church - living witnesses of faith - those gone before and those still here. If God wants me to believe in him, he can pay me a visitI am firmly in the camp of those who believe God can indeed reveal himself to you.
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2014 12:54:35 GMT -5
I have to go by what I understand and that at the moment does not lead to a belief in any God or Jesus being God etc. Jesus had some good ideas, but then so did Buddha. There is no reason to follow Jesus any more than Buddha and in some ways Buddha was wiser than Jesus and more tolerant. I cannot believe in a virgin birth, a death and then a rising from the dead or an ascension into the heavens where he is a God. None of that complies with the laws of nature and I don't see any proof that would make me change my opinion on it. That's how I see belief in any religion. Nothing has any proof that it's true, so you need to suspend rational thinking and just believe in the form of faith. I see no reason to do that. I will not believe in a being that sends anyone to hell for eternity. Why would I worship a being that did that? Before Buddha died he told his own followers, " I am NOT God, I'm seeking for God." Jesus came and plainly declared, " He is God/the Son, He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and no comes to the Father but through Him."
1) Jesus claimed to be God Almighty: Jesus said in Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 11:16-17 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and Worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign.
Rev. 21:6,7 He that sat on the throne said unto me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be MY Son.
2) John the apostle wrote it so clearly in John 1:1-3-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God. He was in the World, and the World was MADE by Him, and the world knew him NOT. And the Word was made flesh and dwell among us. The Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God.
3) The apostle Peter said in Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Nathan as far as I'm concerned this is the biggest negative about Jesus. He wasn't God but people decided he had to be in order for there to be salvation. I totally disagree with that concept. Buddha was wise in that he realized that God was not the focus. He tried to teach people to become divine in the way of wisdom, peace, love and compassion. The focus on God has never been important in Buddhism. Nirvana has been the focus and that could be attained through meditation and enlightenment. The monks in Buddhism attained very high levels of understanding that the rest of the world can only wonder about. We have far more power than we are given credit for because of the Christian belief that humans are helpless and sinners that can't do anything for themselves. If you believe that then you don't even try. That is a huge downfall of Christianity imo. Born sinners, die sinners and only by the grace of a being you can't know for sure exists, do you attain salvation. In a way, salvation is even something I believe is misunderstood. For Christians it means going to heaven. I think it has more to do with the loving and compassionate attributes we learn here that bring us peace and make the world a better place to live in. There is such a deep calm in people that are comfortable in their own 'skin'. That can only be attained by really looking into one's self and drawing strength from that. If someone believes that all they need to do is believe in God and Jesus, that they are a sinner, what motivation is there to try and understand all these other attributes? Many Christians are beautiful, loving and compassionate people, but I believe that is through the inner work they have done. I do agree that some need a God to be comfortable and that belief may be a contribution to motivate them to work on these things, but I also believe that it's the work they do that makes the changes for them. They have just been taught that they can do nothing on their own and to give all the credit to God. There are too many people on earth that have never given their lives to the Christian God and they are some of the most beautiful people I have known so I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that God is not necessary to become loving and compassionate. My friend I spoke of on another thread is a perfect example of that.
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2014 12:56:27 GMT -5
But as far as I'm concerned, I don't have sufficient knowledge that a God exists. I don't take what man has written as proof. There are so many so called sacred books out there. All of them have their opinion of who and what God is. They are all written by man. How would I ever begin to know which one of the many, if any, of them are the truth? If God wants me to believe in him, he can pay me a visit, we'll sit down and talk and then I will believe he exists and isn't just a creation of man trying to make sense of their world. Not only books. Church. A living church - living witnesses of faith - those gone before and those still here. If God wants me to believe in him, he can pay me a visitI am firmly in the camp of those who believe God can indeed reveal himself to you. I don't do faith. It doesn't work for me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 13:05:51 GMT -5
Nathan that that thou dost preach is of thy Father the Devil! Have you ever consider, Could it be the other way around, Ram? When you point one finger at someone 4 fingers are pointing back at you. I will le the readers decide for themselves, whether the Triune God is of the devil's or from God/Elohim/plural, (God= The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who exist from Eternity. I have been on both sides of the fence Nathan. By the way, have you ever tried pointing the finger at someone? Give it a try. See how many fingers are pointing back at you? Of course, I forgot, Mr Thor has six fingers on each hand, or am I getting mixed up with the Nephilim?
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Post by StAnne on Nov 20, 2014 14:17:04 GMT -5
Not only books. Church. A living church - living witnesses of faith - those gone before and those still here. If God wants me to believe in him, he can pay me a visitI am firmly in the camp of those who believe God can indeed reveal himself to you. I don't do faith. It doesn't work for me. Well. We'll see - your life is still unfolding. Blessings.
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Post by rational on Nov 20, 2014 14:26:51 GMT -5
When you point one finger at someone 4 fingers are pointing back at you. That is why the bible says to point at people with at least 3 fingers. Play the odds. Of course, Valiant Thor has those extra fingers to worry about!
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Post by fixit on Nov 20, 2014 14:43:21 GMT -5
Jesus came and plainly declared, " He is God/the Son, He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and no comes to the Father but through Him." Did Jesus claim to be God the Son?
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Post by StAnne on Nov 20, 2014 15:05:18 GMT -5
Did Jesus claim to be God the Son? Because He is also fully human, and answered from His human nature in these instances (and others). .. but we do see Jesus “crowned with glory and honor” because he suffered death, he who “for a little while” was made “lower than the angels,” that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9
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Post by fixit on Nov 20, 2014 15:44:32 GMT -5
Did Jesus claim to be God the Son?
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Post by StAnne on Nov 20, 2014 15:58:33 GMT -5
Did Jesus claim to be God the Son? Yes. And for doing so, He was condemned as worthy of death.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 16:27:01 GMT -5
Did Jesus claim to be God the Son? Yes. And for doing so, He was condemned as worthy of death. Please quote "exactly" chapter and verse from the Bible to support your statement! This is what the Bible truly states: John 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.
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Post by fixit on Nov 20, 2014 16:28:50 GMT -5
Did Jesus claim to be God the Son? Yes. And for doing so, He was condemned as worthy of death. Might he have been misunderstood?
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Post by bubbles on Nov 20, 2014 16:46:17 GMT -5
So, I think you are saying that angels and humans once created are eternal no matter which direction they go? Yes. Do you know why Satan and is fallen angels haven't been confined to hell that God made for them already instead of wandering earth? That doesn't make sense to me actually. Why would he create hell for them then not put them there? Also, when did God's plan change?We do not know all of the infinite mind and mysteries of God's plan. We know sufficiently in order to believe as we are called to do, that we may have eternal life.
So it looks like humans never were supposed to be condemned to hell like Lucifer.God does not condemn humans to hell. God gave us intellect and reason - He took on human flesh and dwelt among us - he left us church and sacraments and written word - he gave us the oral witness of believers passed down thru the centuries - he offers us grace to accept or reject his commands and promises - in order that we not choose eternity in hell by rejecting Him. I guess that's why I just have more questions. The way I see it, if God is all loving and all powerful, it wouldn't matter what we did and he would still love us enough to make sure we didn't join the devil and his angels. Otherwise I don't see him as all loving. It's like damning our children to hell. They aren't old enough or knowing enough to be trusted to always make the right judgement calls. Same with humans I imagine. In comparison to God, we are like 4 year olds making decisions. So is it fair that we are judged and sent to hell for making the wrong choice or needing some proof that God even exists? Snow Lucifer was the arch angel leading worship around the throne. Lucifer was highly adorned and beautiful. Lucifer became jealous of god and wanted to be exalted and worshiped like god. He rebelled against god because of jealousy and envy. He persuaded a 3rd of the angels to rebel with him. God was angry at the rebellion. Changed lucifers name to devil, angels to demons and cast him them out of heaven to earth. He became the prince of the power of the air. Told he would eat the dust of the earth. He rules our heaven as the devil.satan. belzebub.father of lies. Etc. Until he is chained for a thousand yrs. Then released. Then at the end thrown into the lake of fire.
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2014 18:00:49 GMT -5
I guess that's why I just have more questions. The way I see it, if God is all loving and all powerful, it wouldn't matter what we did and he would still love us enough to make sure we didn't join the devil and his angels. Otherwise I don't see him as all loving. It's like damning our children to hell. They aren't old enough or knowing enough to be trusted to always make the right judgement calls. Same with humans I imagine. In comparison to God, we are like 4 year olds making decisions. So is it fair that we are judged and sent to hell for making the wrong choice or needing some proof that God even exists? Snow Lucifer was the arch angel leading worship around the throne. Lucifer was highly adorned and beautiful. Lucifer became jealous of god and wanted to be exalted and worshiped like god. He rebelled against god because of jealousy and envy. He persuaded a 3rd of the angels to rebel with him. God was angry at the rebellion. Changed lucifers name to devil, angels to demons and cast him them out of heaven to earth. He became the prince of the power of the air. Told he would eat the dust of the earth. He rules our heaven as the devil.satan. belzebub.father of lies. Etc. Until he is chained for a thousand yrs. Then released. Then at the end thrown into the lake of fire. Bubbles, that story makes no sense to me if heaven is as good as everyone says it is. If God is all wonderful and you lived with him, there is nothing to envy or be jealous of. Something seems to be wrong in paradise for God's top angel to rebel. The story doesn't add up for me. If heaven is perfect, that would never have happened. Maybe we should take another look.
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2014 18:09:59 GMT -5
This all just seems like science fiction. So this all happened before the creation of man, that the only beings in existence were God, Jesus, and the angels, and the angels just sat around worshiping God constantly? Did they have any other duties and/or were they allowed to pursue hobbies? Before God created Adam and Eve homo Sapiens/human race 6000 yrs ago, there were many ETs races which God created also. There were 3/4 good angels, 1/3 fallen angels, God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Satan and fallen angels had their own hybrid ET with Dinasours, animals/fish/birds and humans look alike race hobbies/program going on for millions, billions of years before Adam and Eve came into existence.Nathan you really should take up writing science fiction. You'd be rich!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 18:18:04 GMT -5
Before God created Adam and Eve homo Sapiens/human race 6000 yrs ago, there were many ETs races which God created also. There were 3/4 good angels, 1/3 fallen angels, God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Satan and fallen angels had their own hybrid ET with Dinasours, animals/fish/birds and humans look alike race hobbies/program going on for millions, billions of years before Adam and Eve came into existence. Nathan you really should take up writing science fiction. You'd be rich! No, no, Snow! Don't tell him to take up writing....I am going to steal his ideas! He's given me a great idea about the times of revolutionary France. There's these three guys, right! They're all for one and one for all. They are all co-equal, but since they are all one, I am going to write a book called "The One Musketeer!" Readers will get a bit confused when they find out there's actually three of them. It will drive them mad as they try to understand it.
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2014 18:33:56 GMT -5
Nathan you really should take up writing science fiction. You'd be rich! No, no, Snow! Don't tell him to take up writing....I am going to steal his ideas! He's given me a great idea about the times of revolutionary France. There's these three guys, right! They're all for one and one for all. They are all co-equal, but since they are all one, I am going to write a book called "The One Musketeer!" Readers will get a bit confused when they find out there's actually three of them. It will drive them mad as they try to understand it. Haha, well if you write it before Nathan, you can charge him with copyright fraud or whatever that is called. Get after it Ram, Nathan is definitely on a roll.
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2014 18:35:04 GMT -5
Nathan you really should take up writing science fiction. You'd be rich! hahahahaha.... Human beings are NOT the ONLY ones God created 6000 yrs ago, for His good pleasure! We are one of MANY beings and ETs God has created. What do you think God has been doing millions, billions, trillions of years before He/they created Adam and Eve in the garden 6000 yrs ago? There are a lot of written history and unwritten history which the humans have no clues whatsoever! It has been hidden, and kept away from us knowing about it.If it's hidden, how come you know about it?
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Post by StAnne on Nov 20, 2014 21:34:15 GMT -5
Please quote "exactly" chapter and verse from the Bible to support your statement! ... Yes. And for doing so, He was condemned as worthy of death. Might he have been misunderstood? No. Jesus used God's personal name to tell them who He is. The I AM. God replied to Moses: I am who I am.* Then he added: This is what you will tell the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you. Exodus 3:14- - - - - - - - - - - - Again the high priest asked him and said to him, “Are you the Messiah, the son of the Blessed One?”
Then Jesus answered, “I am; and ‘you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.’” Mark 14:61-62
And here:
... That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM,* you will die in your sins.” Jn 8:24
And here:
* Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”
So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area. John 8:58-59
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Post by fixit on Nov 20, 2014 21:52:57 GMT -5
"God's personal name"?
The word "Jehovah" is written in the Bible over 7,000 times.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 20, 2014 21:55:36 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 23:54:40 GMT -5
"God's personal name"? The word "Jehovah" is written in the Bible over 7,000 times. you mean in the original hebrew its used over 7,000 times. in the KJV of the bible its mentioned only 4 times...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2014 3:05:27 GMT -5
Please quote "exactly" chapter and verse from the Bible to support your statement! ... Might he have been misunderstood? No. Jesus used God's personal name to tell them who He is. The I AM. God replied to Moses: I am who I am.* Then he added: This is what you will tell the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you. Exodus 3:14- - - - - - - - - - - - Again the high priest asked him and said to him, “Are you the Messiah, the son of the Blessed One?”
Then Jesus answered, “I am; and ‘you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.’” Mark 14:61-62
And here:
... That is why I told you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I AM,* you will die in your sins.” Jn 8:24
And here:
* Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”
So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area. John 8:58-59
Why not just quote the verses that you were asked to. Jesus was put on the cross for claiming to be the Son of God. It is very clear in scripture. Do you have a problem with quoting exact scripture? Also the Jews wanted to stone Jesus for the same reason.....claiming to be the Son of God. This should clearly tell you that your understanding of "I am" is of the mark. It is am ambiguous statement which scholars disagree over. I have presented the various explanations time and again but as you have indicated in the past, you will not read what you don't want to read and now you will not quote what you do not want to quote. Anything that threatens the comfort zone of your beliefs is anathema to yourself. It is a very poor foundation for proper dialogue. Sorry!
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Post by bubbles on Nov 21, 2014 7:28:35 GMT -5
Snow Lucifer was the arch angel leading worship around the throne. Lucifer was highly adorned and beautiful. Lucifer became jealous of god and wanted to be exalted and worshiped like god. He rebelled against god because of jealousy and envy. He persuaded a 3rd of the angels to rebel with him. God was angry at the rebellion. Changed lucifers name to devil, angels to demons and cast him them out of heaven to earth. He became the prince of the power of the air. Told he would eat the dust of the earth. He rules our heaven as the devil.satan. belzebub.father of lies. Etc. Until he is chained for a thousand yrs. Then released. Then at the end thrown into the lake of fire. This all just seems like science fiction. So this all happened before the creation of man, that the only beings in existence were God, Jesus, and the angels, and the angels just sat around worshiping God constantly? Did they have any other duties and/or were they allowed to pursue hobbies? Snow I was paraphrasing scripture.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 9:59:57 GMT -5
Yes I realize that is the story. What honestabe and I agree on is it reads like science fiction. It doesn't make any sense if God is as wonderful as he is deemed to be and heaven is a paradise that no one would ever want to leave or jeopardize.
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