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Post by StAnne on Nov 18, 2014 16:49:10 GMT -5
Christ went into hades and took all the captives with him to heaven. Looks like hades has closed shop which seems to me like heaven is where everyone is headed first stop. ... The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ’s resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham’s bosom or Abraham’s side) and a place of torment where the rich man was (hell). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called “paradise” (Luke 23:43). The place of torment is called “Gehenna” in the Greek in Mark 9:45. Between paradise and hell (the two districts of Hades) there was “a great chasm” (Luke 16:26). The fact that no one could cross this chasm indicates that, after death, one’s fate is sealed. Today, when an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to the torment side of Hades. ... Read more: www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-believers.html#ixzz3JSX3GNrJ
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 17:49:00 GMT -5
1. Angels and mankind both have free will -- the power to choose what they believe and how they act 2. Originally, there was no passport control or citizenship test to be allowed in Heaven; angels were charter members of that club; created as natural-born citizens of Heaven 3. As it turns out, some of the angels didn't really like the way their Heavenly Homeland was being run, so they left and started a new government in a new land 4. Being a quick study, the Administration of Heaven put a new process in place: No more natural-born citizens; all who would enter these shores must have proper papers, take the oath of citizenship, and prove their virtue, purpose, intent, and swear their undying love for the Supreme Commander of the Nation 5. Recognizing that due to a design quirk, none of His faulty creation could meet these requirements, he shuffled a Joker into the deck: Anyone who drew the Joker Card (aka believing in JC) would be considered to hold a winning hand, no matter what else they held 6. A second fail-safe was this: To prevent any future discontent once having gained Heavenly citizenship, the Almighty introduced the concept of the Preservation of the Saints -- aka "Once Saved, Always Saved." In other words -- once you draw the joker, there's no turning back. You're stuck in heaven, like it or not. No more free will at that point! Source: "Tuba Dew: The Shades of a Shadeless Movement"I just knew I could count on you to explain it so clearly. Do you have a link to your source... lol Snow ~ Gene showed his source at the bottom of the article ~ Tuba Dew ~ the leader of the band. That's Gene's favorite name for Ilylo in the past, if I remember right?
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Post by faune on Nov 18, 2014 18:10:48 GMT -5
Christ went into hades and took all the captives with him to heaven. Looks like hades has closed shop which seems to me like heaven is where everyone is headed first stop. ... The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ’s resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham’s bosom or Abraham’s side) and a place of torment where the rich man was (hell). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called “paradise” (Luke 23:43). The place of torment is called “Gehenna” in the Greek in Mark 9:45. Between paradise and hell (the two districts of Hades) there was “a great chasm” (Luke 16:26). The fact that no one could cross this chasm indicates that, after death, one’s fate is sealed. Today, when an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to the torment side of Hades. ... Read more: www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-believers.html#ixzz3JSX3GNrJSt Anne ~ Your article causes me to wonder actually where Sheol or Hades is located in the scope of things? Could it be someplace within the center of the earth where this "great chasm" between Paradise and Hell is found? If so, than perhaps Nathan's theory about the hollow earth core and the underground tunnels may have some relevance here?
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Post by StAnne on Nov 18, 2014 18:24:22 GMT -5
St Anne ~ Your article causes me to wonder actually where Sheol or Hades is located in the scope of things? Could it be someplace within the center of the earth where this "great chasm" between Paradise and Hell is found? If so, than perhaps Nathan's theory about the hollow earth core and the underground tunnels may have some relevance here? Another reason why Christ the Lord descended into hell is that there, as well as in heaven and on earth, He might proclaim His power and authority, and that every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth. www.catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/ApostlesCreed05.shtmland ... Eph 4 9 Now that he ascended, what is it, but because he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is the same also who ascended above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.I don't know if it's figurative or literal, or both. Just clues ... that's all I have.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 18, 2014 19:01:18 GMT -5
When the books are opened Sure sounds like heaven to me.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 18, 2014 20:08:47 GMT -5
Sure does.
12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Post by emy on Nov 18, 2014 20:20:49 GMT -5
I don't have an answer to this, but am wondering... Are angels eternal? Is it even possible God could have destroyed Lucifer?
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2014 20:58:17 GMT -5
I don't have an answer to this, but am wondering... Are angels eternal? Is it even possible God could have destroyed Lucifer? You raise the eternal question of an all powerful being. Can anything be destroyed according to the definition of eternal in the Bible. I would lean towards, no, they can't be destroyed.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 18, 2014 21:58:30 GMT -5
I don't have an answer to this, but am wondering... Are angels eternal? Is it even possible God could have destroyed Lucifer? You raise the eternal question of an all powerful being. Can anything be destroyed according to the definition of eternal in the Bible. I would lean towards, no, they can't be destroyed. Angels are not eternal. They are created beings. Only God (Deity) is eternal.
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2014 22:19:14 GMT -5
You raise the eternal question of an all powerful being. Can anything be destroyed according to the definition of eternal in the Bible. I would lean towards, no, they can't be destroyed. Angels are not eternal. They are created beings. Only God (Deity) is eternal. Thanks St. Anne. Once created though, can it be destroyed? Does this mean that heaven may not be eternal and those who go there may not exist forever? Same question I guess would pertain to hell too.
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Post by rational on Nov 18, 2014 22:29:03 GMT -5
insult to believe in him? no satan/devil/lucifer/dragon/serpent is mentioned 100+ times in the bible i see no reluctance in God to let us know about him. insult that he rebelled? sure i'm most positive that God blew a gasket when satan rebelled. Your god is not in control or his/her emotions?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 23:19:37 GMT -5
insult to believe in him? no satan/devil/lucifer/dragon/serpent is mentioned 100+ times in the bible i see no reluctance in God to let us know about him. insult that he rebelled? sure i'm most positive that God blew a gasket when satan rebelled. Your god is not in control or his/her emotions? it would have been righteous anger...
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Post by StAnne on Nov 18, 2014 23:32:43 GMT -5
Angels are not eternal. They are created beings. Only God (Deity) is eternal. Thanks St. Anne. Once created though, can it be destroyed? Does this mean that heaven may not be eternal and those who go there may not exist forever? Same question I guess would pertain to hell too. can it be destroyedIf I correctly understand your question, I would answer that the fallen angels will go to eternal damnation. Human creation who confess Christ as Lord and Savior have His promise of eternal life. Heaven and earth as we know them may pass away, but there will be a new heaven and a new earth, Rev 21:1; 2 Peter 3:13; Is 65:17 ... Haydock ... Ver. 1. New, by their form and qualities, but not by their substance. --- The first heaven and first earth was passed away: being changed, not as to their substance, but in their qualities. (Challoner)
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Post by bubbles on Nov 18, 2014 23:35:53 GMT -5
Christ went into hades and took all the captives with him to heaven. Looks like hades has closed shop which seems to me like heaven is where everyone is headed first stop. Too many people not only believe in people going to hell, but they also think it's somehow justified. If you believe the bible, I can understand how you might get that impression. My family definitely believe in hell and that anyone who isn't the right kind of Christian will be going there. I find it harder to understand how those who read the bible and believe in the Christian God would not believe in hell actually. I don't agree with it, and I'm glad you don't either, but I'm curious how you came to that conclusion bubbles. Thats easy my relationship with the holy spirit. Observing who he cares about on the street. Its more of a conclusion. I could be wrong. But the mercy the love is immeasurable that I have witnessed and been blessed to be a part of. Standing inside that kind of power with everyone weeping with gratitude and acknowledging him is very impacting. It makes me very glad to be a part of his kingdom.
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Post by emy on Nov 19, 2014 0:34:38 GMT -5
I don't have an answer to this, but am wondering... Are angels eternal? Is it even possible God could have destroyed Lucifer? You raise the eternal question of an all powerful being. Can anything be destroyed according to the definition of eternal in the Bible. I would lean towards, no, they can't be destroyed. There's a verse that says those who will be in heaven cannot die because they are equal to the angels. (Luke 20:35, 36 - thanks, StAnne) So I guess, angels will not be destroyed. Satan can be confined, but he does have power and those he and his angels possess have power. But clearly the power of an angel is not equal to God's or Jesus' power.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 19, 2014 0:43:14 GMT -5
You raise the eternal question of an all powerful being. Can anything be destroyed according to the definition of eternal in the Bible. I would lean towards, no, they can't be destroyed. There's a verse that says those who will be in heaven cannot die because they are equal to the angels. (Luke 20:35, 36 - thanks, StAnne) So I guess, angels will not be destroyed. Satan can be confined, but he does have power and those he and his angels possess have power. But clearly the power of an angel is not equal to God's or Jesus' power. yw! So I guess, angels will not be destroyed.Right. The fallen angels are no longer angels - they were cast out of heaven - and are demons. They will eventually be cast into eternal damnation.
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Post by snow on Nov 19, 2014 11:33:28 GMT -5
Thanks St. Anne. Once created though, can it be destroyed? Does this mean that heaven may not be eternal and those who go there may not exist forever? Same question I guess would pertain to hell too. can it be destroyedIf I correctly understand your question, I would answer that the fallen angels will go to eternal damnation. Human creation who confess Christ as Lord and Savior have His promise of eternal life. Heaven and earth as we know them may pass away, but there will be a new heaven and a new earth, Rev 21:1; 2 Peter 3:13; Is 65:17 ... Haydock ... Ver. 1. New, by their form and qualities, but not by their substance. --- The first heaven and first earth was passed away: being changed, not as to their substance, but in their qualities. (Challoner) So, I think you are saying that angels and humans once created are eternal no matter which direction they go? Do you know why Satan and is fallen angels haven't been confined to hell that God made for them already instead of wandering earth? That doesn't make sense to me actually. Why would he create hell for them then not put them there? Also, when did God's plan change? From what I understand the reason for the rebellion was because Lucifer and his angels didn't like God's plan for them to be the servants of humans. So it looks like humans never were supposed to be condemned to hell like Lucifer. Is that correct? When Lucifer rebelled did this give God the opportunity to make it possible for humans to be tempted by Lucifer and also go to hell? What would have happened to humans if Lucifer hadn't rebelled? Would humans been all destined for heaven eternally?
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Post by snow on Nov 19, 2014 11:39:58 GMT -5
Too many people not only believe in people going to hell, but they also think it's somehow justified. If you believe the bible, I can understand how you might get that impression. My family definitely believe in hell and that anyone who isn't the right kind of Christian will be going there. I find it harder to understand how those who read the bible and believe in the Christian God would not believe in hell actually. I don't agree with it, and I'm glad you don't either, but I'm curious how you came to that conclusion bubbles. Thats easy my relationship with the holy spirit. Observing who he cares about on the street. Its more of a conclusion. I could be wrong. But the mercy the love is immeasurable that I have witnessed and been blessed to be a part of. Standing inside that kind of power with everyone weeping with gratitude and acknowledging him is very impacting. It makes me very glad to be a part of his kingdom. It seems to me that a God should only be loving if it's all powerful. The opposite makes the being dangerous. The OT God is a dangerous being which is likely why the Gnostics believed the OT God was a Demiurge. I think that a God would not be all powerful if it didn't have control over it's emotions. There are so many ways to get people to see your way of thinking without killing them, damning them etc if you're all powerful and all loving and all merciful. I am glad you have experienced the love but not sure it was the Christian God you were experiencing. I think it's more likely you experienced your own heart, which is filled with love for others.
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Post by snow on Nov 19, 2014 11:44:44 GMT -5
You raise the eternal question of an all powerful being. Can anything be destroyed according to the definition of eternal in the Bible. I would lean towards, no, they can't be destroyed. There's a verse that says those who will be in heaven cannot die because they are equal to the angels. (Luke 20:35, 36 - thanks, StAnne) So I guess, angels will not be destroyed. Satan can be confined, but he does have power and those he and his angels possess have power. But clearly the power of an angel is not equal to God's or Jesus' power. She only said that the fallen angels will be eternal I think. Maybe the others are disposable just not the ones that have to suffer? Sounds like humans are promised eternal life too, in both places. Maybe I read it wrong?
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Post by StAnne on Nov 19, 2014 15:52:06 GMT -5
So, I think you are saying that angels and humans once created are eternal no matter which direction they go? Do you know why Satan and is fallen angels haven't been confined to hell that God made for them already instead of wandering earth? That doesn't make sense to me actually. Why would he create hell for them then not put them there? Also, when did God's plan change? From what I understand the reason for the rebellion was because Lucifer and his angels didn't like God's plan for them to be the servants of humans. So it looks like humans never were supposed to be condemned to hell like Lucifer. Is that correct? When Lucifer rebelled did this give God the opportunity to make it possible for humans to be tempted by Lucifer and also go to hell? What would have happened to humans if Lucifer hadn't rebelled? Would humans been all destined for heaven eternally? So, I think you are saying that angels and humans once created are eternal no matter which direction they go? Yes. Do you know why Satan and is fallen angels haven't been confined to hell that God made for them already instead of wandering earth? That doesn't make sense to me actually. Why would he create hell for them then not put them there? Also, when did God's plan change?We do not know all of the infinite mind and mysteries of God's plan. We know sufficiently in order to believe as we are called to do, that we may have eternal life.
So it looks like humans never were supposed to be condemned to hell like Lucifer.God does not condemn humans to hell. God gave us intellect and reason - He took on human flesh and dwelt among us - he left us church and sacraments and written word - he gave us the oral witness of believers passed down thru the centuries - he offers us grace to accept or reject his commands and promises - in order that we not choose eternity in hell by rejecting Him.
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Post by bubbles on Nov 19, 2014 16:02:00 GMT -5
Thats easy my relationship with the holy spirit. Observing who he cares about on the street. Its more of a conclusion. I could be wrong. But the mercy the love is immeasurable that I have witnessed and been blessed to be a part of. Standing inside that kind of power with everyone weeping with gratitude and acknowledging him is very impacting. It makes me very glad to be a part of his kingdom. It seems to me that a God should only be loving if it's all powerful. The opposite makes the being dangerous. The OT God is a dangerous being which is likely why the Gnostics believed the OT God was a Demiurge. I think that a God would not be all powerful if it didn't have control over it's emotions. There are so many ways to get people to see your way of thinking without killing them, damning them etc if you're all powerful and all loving and all merciful. I am glad you have experienced the love but not sure it was the Christian God you were experiencing. I think it's more likely you experienced your own heart, which is filled with love for others. Im too question the OT god. He is nothing like the one I know and love. Lol..darl your funny and I know you mean well. I doubt my own heart could lead and direct me the way my life panned out.
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Post by fixit on Nov 19, 2014 16:21:57 GMT -5
Here's my understanding of "the Christian God":
Yeah...I know. There are portions of the Bible that reveal a different God.
I'm happy to stick with the God described by Jesus in Matthew 5.
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Post by snow on Nov 19, 2014 21:04:46 GMT -5
So, I think you are saying that angels and humans once created are eternal no matter which direction they go? Do you know why Satan and is fallen angels haven't been confined to hell that God made for them already instead of wandering earth? That doesn't make sense to me actually. Why would he create hell for them then not put them there? Also, when did God's plan change? From what I understand the reason for the rebellion was because Lucifer and his angels didn't like God's plan for them to be the servants of humans. So it looks like humans never were supposed to be condemned to hell like Lucifer. Is that correct? When Lucifer rebelled did this give God the opportunity to make it possible for humans to be tempted by Lucifer and also go to hell? What would have happened to humans if Lucifer hadn't rebelled? Would humans been all destined for heaven eternally? So, I think you are saying that angels and humans once created are eternal no matter which direction they go? Yes. Do you know why Satan and is fallen angels haven't been confined to hell that God made for them already instead of wandering earth? That doesn't make sense to me actually. Why would he create hell for them then not put them there? Also, when did God's plan change?We do not know all of the infinite mind and mysteries of God's plan. We know sufficiently in order to believe as we are called to do, that we may have eternal life.
So it looks like humans never were supposed to be condemned to hell like Lucifer.God does not condemn humans to hell. God gave us intellect and reason - He took on human flesh and dwelt among us - he left us church and sacraments and written word - he gave us the oral witness of believers passed down thru the centuries - he offers us grace to accept or reject his commands and promises - in order that we not choose eternity in hell by rejecting Him. I guess that's why I just have more questions. The way I see it, if God is all loving and all powerful, it wouldn't matter what we did and he would still love us enough to make sure we didn't join the devil and his angels. Otherwise I don't see him as all loving. It's like damning our children to hell. They aren't old enough or knowing enough to be trusted to always make the right judgement calls. Same with humans I imagine. In comparison to God, we are like 4 year olds making decisions. So is it fair that we are judged and sent to hell for making the wrong choice or needing some proof that God even exists?
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Post by snow on Nov 19, 2014 21:06:08 GMT -5
It seems to me that a God should only be loving if it's all powerful. The opposite makes the being dangerous. The OT God is a dangerous being which is likely why the Gnostics believed the OT God was a Demiurge. I think that a God would not be all powerful if it didn't have control over it's emotions. There are so many ways to get people to see your way of thinking without killing them, damning them etc if you're all powerful and all loving and all merciful. I am glad you have experienced the love but not sure it was the Christian God you were experiencing. I think it's more likely you experienced your own heart, which is filled with love for others. Im too question the OT god. He is nothing like the one I know and love. Lol..darl your funny and I know you mean well. I doubt my own heart could lead and direct me the way my life panned out. Maybe, Maybe not. I think you have enough love to have just followed your own heart, knowing all the good you do. However, you know better than me of course.
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Post by snow on Nov 19, 2014 21:13:31 GMT -5
Here's my understanding of "the Christian God": Yeah...I know. There are portions of the Bible that reveal a different God. I'm happy to stick with the God described by Jesus in Matthew 5. While I agree that would make it simpler, it takes a lot of ignoring of a lot of other qualities he has. And, if you believe in the trinity doctrine, the OT god is also Jesus. That just messes it even more.
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Post by StAnne on Nov 19, 2014 21:44:21 GMT -5
... Same with humans I imagine. In comparison to God, we are like 4 year olds making decisions. So is it fair that we are judged and sent to hell for making the wrong choice or needing some proof that God even exists? I don't believe God judges us on whether we're like 4 yr olds making decisions in comparison to Him. He knows if we have sufficient knowledge, or not. He knows if we accept or reject the saving grace He offers that we may come to faith and believe.
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Post by fixit on Nov 19, 2014 21:50:20 GMT -5
Here's my understanding of "the Christian God": Yeah...I know. There are portions of the Bible that reveal a different God. I'm happy to stick with the God described by Jesus in Matthew 5. While I agree that would make it simpler, it takes a lot of ignoring of a lot of other qualities he has. And, if you believe in the trinity doctrine, the OT god is also Jesus. That just messes it even more.
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Post by rational on Nov 20, 2014 0:13:05 GMT -5
Your god is not in control or his/her emotions? it would have been righteous anger... Anger is an emotion characterized by antagonism toward someone or something you feel has deliberately done you wrong. (American Psychological Association)Can this really be an attribute of your god - righteous or not?
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