bulsi
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WHAT WE DO IN LIFE ECHOES IN ETERNITY !
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Post by bulsi on Nov 16, 2014 19:42:57 GMT -5
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Post by déjà vu on Nov 16, 2014 19:46:41 GMT -5
are you referring to continued preaching of " salvation by works " by certain ministries?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 20:00:16 GMT -5
i'll say it again(until i am blue in the face)you must bear fruit or you will be cast into the fire...
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 16, 2014 20:06:03 GMT -5
i'll say it again(until i am blue in the face)you must bear fruit or you will be cast into the fire... I don't think you're quite there yet, wally. Your face still looks a little green to me.
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bulsi
Junior Member
WHAT WE DO IN LIFE ECHOES IN ETERNITY !
Posts: 197
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Post by bulsi on Nov 16, 2014 20:10:28 GMT -5
Petty things seem to be par for 2x2 woman dress and the lack of makeup.....Men watching football on computer's or using it as the TV. All the while feeling as if they sin. God sent his son not to condemn us but to save us....Instead of living Christ in the way the bible teaches people conform to the religion ! Yet lack the teaching of the true doctrine of the bible
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Post by slowtosee on Nov 16, 2014 20:18:54 GMT -5
Titus3:5. Not by works of righteousness we have done but.... galatians 2:15. Knowing that. man is not justified by works... all our "fruits" amount to nothing but filthy rags, as far as salvation goes, but I agree, good "fruit" will be a result of salvation... it is quite natural for us as proud humans to want to earn or deserve salvation, but to accept it as a gift is truly humbling and what should our response then be? Alvin
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bulsi
Junior Member
WHAT WE DO IN LIFE ECHOES IN ETERNITY !
Posts: 197
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Post by bulsi on Nov 16, 2014 20:22:52 GMT -5
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Post by Mary on Nov 16, 2014 21:13:50 GMT -5
Whose fruit - the workers or God's? A woman wearing her hair up is the workers rules not Godly fruit.
What is the fruit you are talking about? That what we find in the Bible or the rules the workers make? We are free from the law i.e. rules.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith........
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 23:41:16 GMT -5
Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Luk 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. Luk 19:18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. Luk 19:20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: Luk 19:21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. Luk 19:22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Luk 19:23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? Luk 19:24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. Luk 19:25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
here we have jesus giving us an example of a do nothing person and what will happen to them...
Mat 21:18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
here we have jesus laying a curse on a fig tree for having no fruit and look what happened to it...
Mat_7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
here we have jesus saying that which doesn't bring forth fruit is cast into the fire, it can't be more plain than that...
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 17, 2014 1:09:16 GMT -5
Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luk 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. Luk 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us. Luk 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Luk 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. Luk 19:18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds. Luk 19:19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities. Luk 19:20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: Luk 19:21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. Luk 19:22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow: Luk 19:23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury? Luk 19:24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds. Luk 19:25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.) Luk 19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. here we have jesus giving us an example of a do nothing person and what will happen to them... Mat 21:18 Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. Mat 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. here we have jesus laying a curse on a fig tree for having no fruit and look what happened to it... Mat_7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. here we have jesus saying that which doesn't bring forth fruit is cast into the fire, it can't be more plain than that... You didn't expect the Bible to have a consistent message, did you?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 1:49:21 GMT -5
i'll say it again(until i am blue in the face)you must bear fruit or you will be cast into the fire... Sorry Wally, that was for the First Century Apostolic Church only. Those guys (like Jesus Himself,) were heavily into rules - more so than the Old Testament. Once these guys were dead "christians" started inventing their own ways of doing things, including amongst many other doctrines, saved-by-grace-alone.
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Post by fred on Nov 17, 2014 2:50:34 GMT -5
i'll say it again(until i am blue in the face)you must bear fruit or you will be cast into the fire... Sorry Wally, that was for the First Century Apostolic Church only. Those guys (like Jesus Himself,) were heavily into rules - more so than the Old Testament. Once these guys were dead "christians" started inventing their own ways of doing things, including amongst many other doctrines, saved-by-grace-alone.Mm, but the scripture does teach that we are saved by grace, a work not of ourselves. Those who wish to contradict scripture should understand that saving grace is never alone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 3:39:37 GMT -5
I call that "Proof Text Salvation."
Ephesians 2 "For by grace you have been saved athrough faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Saved-by-gracers read only the bold in this chapter, thus:
"For by grace you have been saved athrough faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
and find the post bold text verses too confronting, ie
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Ephesians 2 is all about works and separation from this present evil world. About the only bit which survives in "modern" churches is, "For by grace you have been saved athrough faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works..."
EVERY SECOND WORD JESUS SAID ABOUT WORKS AND EVERY SECOND WORD PAUL WROTE ABOUT WORKS IS PROOF-TEXTED OUT OF EXISTENCE.
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Post by fred on Nov 17, 2014 3:55:05 GMT -5
I call that "Proof Text Salvation."Ephesians 2 " For by grace you have been saved athrough faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Saved-by-gracers read only the bold in this chapter, thus:" For by grace you have been saved athrough faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." and find the post bold text verses too confronting, ie"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2 is all about works and separation from this present evil world. About the only bit which survives in "modern" churches is, "For by grace you have been saved athrough faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works..."
EVERY SECOND WORD JESUS SAID ABOUT WORKS AND EVERY SECOND WORD PAUL WROTE ABOUT WORKS IS PROOF-TEXTED OUT OF EXISTENCE. You have never understood this in the past bert, so I hold no hope for you at the moment. What part of " grace not being alone" do you not understand? You believe a lie! Folk who believe in being saved by grace alone would be horrified that you suggest there does need to be works present - they just believe that their works will not save them.
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Post by Mary on Nov 17, 2014 3:55:27 GMT -5
What good works do your church do Bert? Churches are really into good works. Who run the soup kitchens, hand out food to the poor etc. I don't see your church doing that. But all these things do not save us, because we cannot save ourselves. It is the grace of God that saves us, not of our own works least we should boast. Works are not rules and rules are not works. You are confusing works with rules, and rules with works, Bert.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 4:03:30 GMT -5
Petty things seem to be par for 2x2 woman dress and the lack of makeup.....Men watching football on computer's or using it as the TV. All the while feeling as if they sin. God sent his son not to condemn us but to save us....Instead of living Christ in the way the bible teaches people conform to the religion ! Yet lack the teaching of the true doctrine of the bible Do you mean like not attending to certain urgent and important things on the Sabbath day or the Lord's day? Like your animal fallen into a well?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 4:09:18 GMT -5
Quote - "What part of " grace not being alone" do you not understand? You believe a lie! Folk who believe in being saved by grace alone would be horrified that you suggest there does need to be works present - they just believe that their works will not save them."
What part of "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." don't you believe?
WORKS - "workmanship" here means creation WORKS - "not works" here means the Jewish law (then repeated in Christian creeds) WORKS - "for good works" here means doing what Jesus asked and showed you to do.
How to harmonize scipture? --- Through "works" God grants us grace.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 5:22:41 GMT -5
One major problem with Christendom is that it views salvation as a one off thing. You accept Jesus = you are saved. Not a lot wrong with that, but scriptures make it clear that salvation is a "continuous" event, not a one off thing. It is a process which lasts from the moment we say "Yes" to Jesus until the moment we die. We must continue to the end however long or short the period of continuity lasts. We must be faithful during that period.
The Word of God is not to be carved up as the theologians do. It must be viewed in its entirety. When we carve up "salvation" into the Gospels of Grace, the Gospel of Faith and the Gospel of Works, we are on the wrong path. Grace, Faith and Works are all important ingredient parts of the continuous process of salvation. Without any one of these three ingredients we do not have salvation.
Theologians et al, often only see one type of "works," i.e. those of our own human motivation and effort. These are "correctly" viewed as filthy rags and can in no way earn us salvation, no matter how good they are. The other, more important works that theologians are often unaware of, forget about, or ignore, because they carve up the Gospel into things like then Gospel of Grace, are the works of the Holy Spirit in us, which are an essential part of the "continuous" process of salvation. Faith without these works are dead. If the Holy spirit cannot produce good works in us (Fruit of the Spirit), then we have NO salvation.
Do not carve up the Gospel. Consider it in its entirety, for that is where the real Truth lies. Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Carving up the Word of God into Gospels of Grace, Faith and Works, etc., produces ridiculous viewpoints such as Salvation and Reward are two separate issues, whereas in reality, we cannot have one without the other. However, since the latter is based on our works, the level or amount of reward varies. Works are as important as Grace and Faith in the salvation process. We are called to do good works, i.e. the works of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We enter into a contract with God over this issue. We are not to be slothful in allowing the Holy Spirit to produce good works in and through us.
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Post by fred on Nov 17, 2014 6:09:09 GMT -5
Quote - "What part of " grace not being alone" do you not understand? You believe a lie! Folk who believe in being saved by grace alone would be horrified that you suggest there does need to be works present - they just believe that their works will not save them." What part of "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." don't you believe?
WORKS - "workmanship" here means creation WORKS - "not works" here means the Jewish law (then repeated in Christian creeds) WORKS - "for good works" here means doing what Jesus asked and showed you to do.
How to harmonize scipture? --- Through "works" God grants us grace.I have no idea where you are going with your comments bert. How do your comments disagree with what I've been saying?
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Post by fred on Nov 17, 2014 6:22:09 GMT -5
One major problem with Christendom is that it views salvation as a one off thing. You accept Jesus = you are saved. Not a lot wrong with that, but scriptures make it clear that salvation is a "continuous" event, not a one off thing. It is a process which lasts from the moment we say "Yes" to Jesus until the moment we die. We must continue to the end however long or short the period of continuity lasts. We must be faithful during that period. The Word of God is not to be carved up as the theologians do. It must be viewed in its entirety. When we carve up "salvation" into the Gospels of Grace, the Gospel of Faith and the Gospel of Works, we are on the wrong path. Grace, Faith and Works are all important ingredient parts of the continuous process of salvation. Without any one of these three ingredients we do not have salvation. Theologians et al, often only see one type of "works," i.e. those of our own human motivation and effort. These are "correctly" viewed as filthy rags and can in no way earn us salvation, no matter how good they are. The other, more important works that theologians are often unaware of, forget about, or ignore, because they carve up the Gospel into things like then Gospel of Grace, are the works of the Holy Spirit in us, which are an essential part of the "continuous" process of salvation. Faith without these works are dead. If the Holy spirit cannot produce good works in us (Fruit of the Spirit), then we have NO salvation. Do not carve up the Gospel. Consider it in its entirety, for that is where the real Truth lies. Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Carving up the Word of God into Gospels of Grace, Faith and Works, etc., produces ridiculous viewpoints such as Salvation and Reward are two separate issues, whereas in reality, we cannot have one without the other. However, since the latter is based on our works, the level or amount of reward varies. Works are as important as Grace and Faith in the salvation process. We are called to do good works, i.e. the works of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We enter into a contract with God over this issue. We are not to be slothful in allowing the Holy Spirit to produce good works in and through us. I agree, that is, if I've interpreted you correctly. First comes a calling, then a heart that responds (in faith, belief), then a 'saving' (by grace through faith). God then sees us as justified (not guilty) and he begins a work that transforms our hearts causing us to engage in the works that he had planned (sanctification), a work that continues a lifetime. We will never become perfect, but at life's end he has promised to glorify us. This is my belief of salvation and no wonder we say that salvation is of the Lord - it is his work from beginning to end.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 8:22:34 GMT -5
One major problem with Christendom is that it views salvation as a one off thing. You accept Jesus = you are saved. Not a lot wrong with that, but scriptures make it clear that salvation is a "continuous" event, not a one off thing. It is a process which lasts from the moment we say "Yes" to Jesus until the moment we die. We must continue to the end however long or short the period of continuity lasts. We must be faithful during that period. The Word of God is not to be carved up as the theologians do. It must be viewed in its entirety. When we carve up "salvation" into the Gospels of Grace, the Gospel of Faith and the Gospel of Works, we are on the wrong path. Grace, Faith and Works are all important ingredient parts of the continuous process of salvation. Without any one of these three ingredients we do not have salvation. Theologians et al, often only see one type of "works," i.e. those of our own human motivation and effort. These are "correctly" viewed as filthy rags and can in no way earn us salvation, no matter how good they are. The other, more important works that theologians are often unaware of, forget about, or ignore, because they carve up the Gospel into things like then Gospel of Grace, are the works of the Holy Spirit in us, which are an essential part of the "continuous" process of salvation. Faith without these works are dead. If the Holy spirit cannot produce good works in us (Fruit of the Spirit), then we have NO salvation. Do not carve up the Gospel. Consider it in its entirety, for that is where the real Truth lies. Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Carving up the Word of God into Gospels of Grace, Faith and Works, etc., produces ridiculous viewpoints such as Salvation and Reward are two separate issues, whereas in reality, we cannot have one without the other. However, since the latter is based on our works, the level or amount of reward varies. Works are as important as Grace and Faith in the salvation process. We are called to do good works, i.e. the works of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We enter into a contract with God over this issue. We are not to be slothful in allowing the Holy Spirit to produce good works in and through us. I agree, that is, if I've interpreted you correctly. First comes a calling, then a heart that responds (in faith, belief), then a 'saving' (by grace through faith). God then sees us as justified (not guilty) and he begins a work that transforms our hearts causing us to engage in the works that he had planned (sanctification), a work that continues a lifetime. We will never become perfect, but at life's end he has promised to glorify us. This is my belief of salvation and no wonder we say that salvation is of the Lord - it is his work from beginning to end. That's another way of putting it Fred. Basically our calling is to "follow" Jesus. He is the way, the truth and the life. Salvation can never be a one-off thing. As seen above. It is a "life" process! Bert is right! If you are going to drive a car, first get a driving licence. But that's digressing somewhat!
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 17, 2014 15:29:16 GMT -5
i'll say it again(until i am blue in the face)you must bear fruit or you will be cast into the fire... Sorry Wally, that was for the First Century Apostolic Church only. Those guys (like Jesus Himself,) were heavily into rules - more so than the Old Testament. Once these guys were dead "christians" started inventing their own ways of doing things, including amongst many other doctrines, saved-by-grace-alone.Do you still go to meetings?
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 17, 2014 15:31:47 GMT -5
Sorry Wally, that was for the First Century Apostolic Church only. Those guys (like Jesus Himself,) were heavily into rules - more so than the Old Testament. Once these guys were dead "christians" started inventing their own ways of doing things, including amongst many other doctrines, saved-by-grace-alone. Mm, but the scripture does teach that we are saved by grace, a work not of ourselves. Those who wish to contradict scripture should understand that saving grace is never alone. Scripture contradicts ITSELF. What can one expect from authors who clearly maintain their differences?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 20:11:33 GMT -5
It appears to "contradict" to people who see things simply, or those with preconceived ideas (ie Dawkins.) By way of example: that God can be both loving and vengeance driven should not be a contradiction anymore than it's never a contradiction in us. Simply put, "works" has different meanings depending upon translation and that all important "context."
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Post by déjà vu on Nov 17, 2014 21:02:40 GMT -5
It's good to remember that we don't work for our salvation , but from our salvation we don't fight for victory but from ( His ) victory
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2014 4:53:58 GMT -5
It appears to "contradict" to people who see things simply, or those with preconceived ideas (ie Dawkins.) By way of example: that God can be both loving and vengeance driven should not be a contradiction anymore than it's never a contradiction in us. Simply put, "works" has different meanings depending upon translation and that all important "context."Ah, so it was you Bert that gave me that all important word? Be very careful how you apply it, Laddie. Many don't like it!
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