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Post by faune on Nov 14, 2014 0:06:01 GMT -5
Isn't it odd that Irvine would be so popular with his whole town if they weren't part of his exclusive church which condemned all others? Even if initially he won them over, surely the descendants don't still adore him? Did he go back there after being kicked out of the 2x2s and before Jerusalem? Withlove ~ According to the Wiki article I quoted earlier, it appears William Irvine did go back to his hometown before later leaving for Jerusalem in 1919, where he finally died on March 9, 1947 of throat cancer at the age of 84 years old. I also noticed from my reading about William Irvine that George Walker, along with Jack Carroll and James Jardine, helped to Irvine to re-locate to Jerusalem in November 1919, as shown on the earlier Timeline excerpt regarding the 2x2's below and the article I posted earlier as shown below. It appears that Irvine even got taken up with the early Pentecostal Movement in the early 1900's (on Azusa Street, Los Angeles, CA) before returning to his hometown of Kilsyth, Scotland (September 1919) and on to Jerusalem (November 1919).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azusa_Street_Revival
thewaythetruthandthelife.net/index/3_observe/3-2/3-2-34_care/3-2-34-16_1947_william-irvine.htm
www.workersect.org/2x205a.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Irvine_(Scottish_evangelist)
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Post by lilwolfmisty on Nov 14, 2014 0:12:21 GMT -5
What about Leatha Kelsey and Audrey Miles they had to be up there too
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Post by faune on Nov 14, 2014 0:18:15 GMT -5
Thanks, I knew about George Walker age was over 100 yrs old when he died. I was in a hurry, so 102 yrs old came out of my head. When I professed in 1978 I had heard he had a photographic memory with dates, names of the friends and workers. Nathan ~ No problem. However, you did come close to his age at death. You were only off by a couple of years. Since George Walker was overseer in the East, I got to hear him a number of times at conventions in the New England area and Canada. He was quite an interesting 2x2 preacher and his sermons really captivated his audience.
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Post by withlove on Nov 14, 2014 0:25:37 GMT -5
Faune-- sorry I missed the part about him going back. Surely the info about why he is so liked (or why he isn't dis-liked) is out there somewhere. It's intriguing. Who wants to take a field-trip?
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Post by faune on Nov 14, 2014 0:34:51 GMT -5
Faune-- sorry I missed the part about him going back. Surely the info about why he is so liked (or why he isn't dis-liked) is out there somewhere. It's intriguing. Who wants to take a field-trip? Withlove ~ Here's the answer I believe you seek regarding his return to his hometown in Kilsyth, Scotland, before he went on to Jerusalem in November 1919. Perhaps his fame with the 2x2 movement at home and abroad helped to secure his "favorite son" reputation within his hometown?
By the way, I really enjoyed the short video at the beginning of this article, which was entitled "Rethinking Church." thewaythetruthandthelife.net/index/3_observe/3-2/3-2-34_care/3-2-34-16_1947_william-irvine.htm
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 4:55:55 GMT -5
Quote - "Can you please state exactly what is "rubbish" in Marxist writings?" All of it.
Quote - "What is it you DO NOT believe from Dawkins "The God Delusion?" It's all "Telling The Truth" - but like the TTT you have to figure out what it is NOT saying. Largely it is one monster of a strawman argument.
Quote - "Have you read any of it? (I can send it to you- it is on my bedside table) It's on my bedside table too, largely as a reminder to read it as it was loaned to me.
Quote - "What ideas of Vidal, Chomsky do you NOT believe?" 1 - The notion that it is socialism and not capitalism responsible for the enlightenment, democracy and people's standard of living. 2 - That we must learn to hate as we do.
Quote - "Have you actually read any of the works of these men?" In dribs and drabs. I did enjoy what Chomsky said about the American "establishment" quote, "All they worry about it debt!" meaning he doesn't understand or care for where the money must come from for his great socialist ideals. A Lexus Nexus study of three "great" American "intellectuals" (Chomsky and Vidal being two) found over a four or five year period the word "Africa" wasn't mentioned once. When asked why this would be so, some wit put it, "Because the Righ is not interested in Africa."
Quote - "Where are you getting any information about what they said? PROVE IT! What is proof? One form of "proof" is when you answer your critics in such a way they can't respond - and you are left with the feeling you have "proven" your point.
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Post by withlove on Nov 14, 2014 10:25:31 GMT -5
That's really something to think that the founder of the "truth" died in 47 and most people didn't know that there even was a founder. *While* he was dying. And even since, people didn't know. It's kind of shocking how little we knew [know]. And that he claimed to have the gift of tongues. And right now he is buried in a lost grave in Gaza. And that workers whose names weren't blotted out of church history convinced him to move to Jerusalem to get away from the friends. And..everything.
Sorry for my constant "wow" posts. I'm behind the curve here.
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Post by selah on Nov 14, 2014 14:36:23 GMT -5
Thanks for this list Nathan. Just to note that Aleta McCrae laboured in Africa, not India. And Doris McCrae's name is spelled as you see here in my post, not as per the list. These two remarkable women were my beautiful aunties.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by déjà vu on Nov 14, 2014 20:45:15 GMT -5
Quote "Many brothers and sisters workers labored and died in the work as 2x2 workers in their old age"
it seems that the average age of workers is relatively high so it must be a "healthy" way of life.
has anyone calculated the average age?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 14, 2014 23:28:30 GMT -5
1. Quote - "Can you please state exactly what is "rubbish" in Marxist writings?" All of it.2. Quote - "What is it you DO NOT believe from Dawkins "The God Delusion?" It's all "Telling The Truth" - but like the TTT you have to figure out what it is NOT saying. Largely it is one monster of a strawman argument.3. Quote - "Have you read any of it? (I can send it to you- it is on my bedside table) It's on my bedside table too, largely as a reminder to read it as it was loaned to me.
4. Quote - "What ideas of Vidal, Chomsky do you NOT believe?" 1 - The notion that it is socialism and not capitalism responsible for the enlightenment, democracy and people's standard of living. 2 - That we must learn to hate as we do.4. Quote - "Have you actually read any of the works of these men?" In dribs and drabs. I did enjoy what Chomsky said about the American "establishment" quote, "All they worry about it debt!" meaning he doesn't understand or care for where the money must come from for his great socialist ideals.
A Lexus Nexus study of three "great" American "intellectuals" (Chomsky and Vidal being two) found over a four or five year period the word "Africa" wasn't mentioned once. When asked why this would be so, some wit put it, "Because the Righ(t) is not interested in Africa."5. Quote - "Where are you getting any information about what they said? PROVE IT! What is proof? One form of "proof" is when you answer your critics in such a way they can't respond - and you are left with the feeling you have "proven" your point.
1. No, Bert. You can't get by just saying that! What PARTS of Marxist writings is "rubbish" according to you?
2. I don't see why you compare TTT with Dawkins "The God Delusion"? Explain? You can't just say that Dawkins "The God Delusion" a strawman argument without saying why that is so.
3. Ah, just as I thought! You HAVEN'T READ "The God Delusion!" So how can you even know what kind of reasoning that Dawkins used in the book? Caught'ya red-handed!
4. Not sure what you mean that Chomsky "doesn't understand or care for where the money must come from " I can't find anything about a Lexus Nexus study. Can you explain what it was supposed to be about? 5. Proof. Again I'm not understanding what you really mean here.
Sounds like a cop out to me. When someone states something, why can't they respond with references as to where they get their information?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2014 0:32:53 GMT -5
ALL of Marxism is rubbish. You just don't know where to start...
Economics? It repudiates the Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. It thought employees would drive down wages, instead of them going up through trade unions. It taught generations of Marxists wannabees that profit equated to greed. It told lots of fibs like commerce leading to lack of civility (so your baker, grocer etc might never greet you - as they actually do.)
Religion? Marx wanted to replace "self interest" with some notion of humans doing good for goodness sake. Goodness sake wasn't Judea/Christian morality, but class politics. Marx saw the end of an individual and the emergence of a true class conscious collectized person.
History Marx saw the world through, well Marxist ideals. Everything related to class struggle. The French Revolution was all about class - little if anything about what happened to French cows before the fighting started, for instance.
Cruelty. Marx said the socialism and then Communism would see the "bourgeois" "made impossible" and left it to his followers to interpret that as they felt fit. About 150,000,000 died as a result of Marxist governments or Marxist wars or Marxists thinking they could run farms and factories better than farmers and factory bosses. And he was anti-Semitic and sexist.
The Bert View of Marxism is this: Marxism is a complex set of theories about power, ie who has it and who should have it. Marxism promises to deliver this power to the masses if they will only support the Marxists. This ensures violence. Marxists then wind up owning and using that power on a scale never seen before in history.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2014 0:38:25 GMT -5
The God Delusion Just checked my bookmark page 77, "Thomas Aquinas "Proofs" this is yet another strawman argument: Aquinas was a Catholic philosopher who had little time for the bible's simplicity, or the bible's attitude towards scribes and philosophers. Yes, and Dawkins says, Aquinas proof's ARE vacuous - they would have been vacuous to the writers of the bible too. God gives NO proofs other than what you prove through your own experience of God.
Having said that, proof #1, the Unmoved Mover, "nothing moves without a prior mover" and followed #2 "The uncaused cause" and #3 "the cosmological argument" are things which scientists trip over when they say there was a beginning which came of itself.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2014 0:41:30 GMT -5
A good way to know Chomsky is to Google "chomsky quotes" ie "With the development of industrial capitalism, a new and unanticipated system of injustice, it is libertarian socialism that has preserved and extended the radical humanist message of the Enlightenment and the classical liberal ideals that were perverted into an ideology to sustain the emerging social order."
I put it to you that industrial capitalism emancipated humanity. And it began in England, not because of enslaved people, but because the English had the highest standard of living in the world and their labor was too expensive. And of course, Chomsky HIMSELF is a part of that "emerging social order."
Chomsky et al are obsessed with power - who has it, who should have it. I can't see any industrial revolution, scientific progress or notions such as private property or suffrage coming from them.
THE CHOMSKY LANGUAGE OF HATE AND ENVY Governments are not representative. They have their own power, serving segments of the population that are dominant and rich.
There are very few people who are going to look into the mirror and say, 'That person I see is a savage monster;' instead, they make up some construction that justifies what they do.
Why should Iran have a deterrent strategy? Well, it's surrounded by hostile enemies. Both of its borders have been under occupation by a hostile superpower, the United States, which is constantly violating the U.N. charter by leaving open what they call the saying, 'all options are open' - meaning the threat of war.
In the US, there is basically one party - the business party. It has two factions, called Democrats and Republicans, which are somewhat different but carry out variations on the same policies. By and large, I am opposed to those policies. As is most of the population.
International affairs is very much run like the mafia. The godfather does not accept disobedience, even from a small storekeeper who doesn't pay his protection money. You have to have obedience; otherwise, the idea can spread that you don't have to listen to the orders, and it can spread to important places.
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Post by faune on Nov 15, 2014 0:56:57 GMT -5
That's really something to think that the founder of the "truth" died in 47 and most people didn't know that there even was a founder. *While* he was dying. And even since, people didn't know. It's kind of shocking how little we knew [know]. And that he claimed to have the gift of tongues. And right now he is buried in a lost grave in Gaza. And that workers whose names weren't blotted out of church history convinced him to move to Jerusalem to get away from the friends. And..everything. Sorry for my constant "wow" posts. I'm behind the curve here. Withlove ~ To learn more about William Irvine and his Pentecostal tongues experience in Los Angeles after the war, you might check Cherie's thread about when the cover-up of William Irvine began at this link? At the bottom of the page I found the source of this information within John Long's Journal entries, dated 1918 to 1921. However, what I find strange and Cherie does, too, is that this seems to be the only reference of his "receiving the gift of tongues with the interpretation of tongues." However, earlier in Los Angeles around the first outpouring of the Spirit during the Azusa Street Revival in April 1906, William Irvine was opposed to this demonstration from all accounts in Chapter 6 of Cherie's book.
Apparently, after he lost his place of leadership in the 2x2's around 1915, he returns to Los Angeles, CA and stays there until the war is over. So sometime between 1915 and September 1919, when he returns to his hometown in Kilsyth, Scotland, he has this Pentecostal experience, we can reasonably assume? My wild guess is that it may have occurred around November 1918 when the war ended, from some other entries of revelations Irvine was receiving at this time? Cherie also shared these quotes from his letters on Page 2 of this same link below.
professing.proboards.com/thread/22472/when-cover-hiding-irvines-begin?page=2
When did the Cover Up and Hiding Wm Irvine's begin?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 1:39:29 GMT -5
Quote - "When did the Cover Up and Hiding Wm Irvine's begin?"
About the same time as he started claiming he invented the Truth.
And while we are at it. Q - when did the coverup of the true nature of the Apostolic Church begin? It started ca 40AD, but began in earnest after the death of "Saint John" ca 100.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 4:36:45 GMT -5
Quote - "When did the Cover Up and Hiding Wm Irvine's begin?" About the same time as he started claiming he invented the Truth.
And while we are at it. Q - when did the coverup of the true nature of the Apostolic Church begin? It started ca 40AD, but began in earnest after the death of "Saint John" ca 100.[/font][/b] Wrong Bert. It started before it began! This shows you how confused "true beginnings" can be! Matthew 28:13 "Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we (Roman soldier guards) slept"
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 4:42:29 GMT -5
That's not what I mean. I mean the coverup that early christian churches stole the mantle of the Apostolic Church for themselves. Just read about the "second Pope" Linus who, we are told, had what became the Catholic Church, handed to him by the Apostles. The lives these Apostolic people lived, and their Ministry, slowly got swallowed up in fables about "Saints" and "Mary Queen of heaven" and tens of thousands of rules, regulations, calendric events, idols and then later, brutal persecution of everyone.
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Post by Mary on Nov 17, 2014 4:43:33 GMT -5
Jesus said that he spoke openly - he hid nothing.
What the Catholic church destroyed God gave William Irvine to start it up again. IS that not what you believe Bert?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 4:50:51 GMT -5
Jesus said that he spoke openly - he hid nothing. What the Catholic church destroyed God gave William Irvine to start it up again. IS that not what you believe Bert? Yes, true, true. We too venerate the worker Saints. We do pilgrimages to their shrines and fight over who can host their bones in the centre of meeting house living rooms. We hold our Workers sit at the right hand of God, right where Mary was erroneously supposed to sit. We have Worker calendars. Thus today is Mr Caroll day. This is celebrated with festivities, costumes, dancing and apocryphal stories about miracles Caroll did. And, by invoking Worker names we can gain absolution from mortal sins.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 4:58:52 GMT -5
That's not what I mean. I mean the coverup that early christian churches stole the mantle of the Apostolic Church for themselves. Just read about the "second Pope" Linus who, we are told, had what became the Catholic Church, handed to him by the Apostles. The lives these Apostolic people lived, and their Ministry, slowly got swallowed up in fables about "Saints" and "Mary Queen of heaven" and tens of thousands of rules, regulations, calendric events, idols and then later, brutal persecution of everyone. Fables such as the Trinity and Jesus is God?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 5:06:07 GMT -5
Do not venture thus far, dear Ram. There are plenty of other fables far easier to wrestle with than Jesus as God and the Trinity. Take the fable of Mary, queen of heaven. or the doctrine of indulgences, or doctrines of forced conversion, or doctrines of worldly and temporal powers.
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Post by Mary on Nov 17, 2014 5:08:14 GMT -5
Jesus said that he spoke openly - he hid nothing. What the Catholic church destroyed God gave William Irvine to start it up again. IS that not what you believe Bert? -Yes, true, true. We too venerate the worker Saints. We do pilgrimages to their shrines and fight over who can host their bones in the cent re of meeting house living rooms.
True, true. Plenty of worker shines in living rooms with photos on mantel pieces, pianos and walls. Yes, workers are elevated to the role of head worker and you do pilgrimages to hear certain workers speaking and to the big funerals for the workers.
- We hold our Workers sit at the right hand of God, right where Mary was erroneously supposed to sit.
Yes, the workers are the only true servants of God.
- We have Worker calendars. Thus today is Mr Caroll day. This is celebrated with festivities, costumes, dancing and apocryphal stories about miracles Caroll did.
Yes, there are worker lists.
- And, by invoking Worker names we can gain absolution from mortal sins.Yes only by professing through a worker will you be saved.
I can't see a lot of difference between the workers and what you have posted about the Catholic church, Bert. I was surprised at the similarities.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2014 5:13:46 GMT -5
Quote - "Yes only by professing through a worker will you be saved. I can't see a lot of difference between the workers and what you have posted about the Catholic church, Bert."
Yes, I too struggle to see much difference between the Workers and the Pope.
ps have you seen the Pope's grand estates? Wwwwwoooooowwwwwwww !!!!!
pps one lady Worker said she felt that the Catholic Church was as far from her view of the Truth as the north pole was from the south.
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Post by Mary on Nov 17, 2014 5:19:14 GMT -5
The Catholic Church Bert, the Catholic Church. Guess the pope is making a greater impression on the world than the workers who hide their light under a bushel. Certain workers are elevated to the place of pope in your church the same as the pope is elevated to his place in his church. I've heard it said that the workers stay in the best houses. They don't even have to cook meals. Just like the pope they have other people do that. Some of the houses the workers stay in are pretty flash. I am sure the pope did not pay for his house but it was provided for him free the same as the workers did not pay for their house. The workers are well looked after. Do you have a problem with the Queen living in a castle?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 18, 2014 17:49:30 GMT -5
The God DelusionJust checked my bookmark page 77, "Thomas Aquinas "Proofs"this is yet another strawman argument: Aquinas was a Catholic philosopher who had little time for the bible's simplicity, or the bible's attitude towards scribes and philosophers. Yes, and Dawkins says, Aquinas proof's ARE vacuous - they would have been vacuous to the writers of the bible too. God gives NO proofs other than what you prove through your own experience of God.Having said that, proof #1, the Unmoved Mover, "nothing moves without a prior mover" and followed #2 "The uncaused cause" and #3 "the cosmological argument" are things which scientists trip over when they say there was a beginning which came of itself. ( Sorry, I've been slow In answering. )
First: your statement that God gives NO proofs other than what you prove through your own experience of God, -I think that is True.
Your own beliefs are decided by your own experience . However how much can one trust their own experience?
That is how delusions are created! aka, The God Delusion
Each person's belief differs a bit from another person's belief because of the differences in their experiences.
In order to have a common belief people will alter the beliefs a bit. Never-the-less, in spite of that, there are still 1000's of Christian denominations alone, never mind other religions.
Second: scientists don't "trip over" those "Thomas Aquinas "Proofs", because that is not their job! These are religious or philosophical statements and nothing to do with the goal of scientists
The three goals in science:
1. Investigate and understand the natural world. 2. Explain events in the natural world. 3. Use those explanations to make predictions.
Science seeks to increase man's knowledge and to use that knowledge to directly or indirectly benefit man. (I'll get to some of your other post)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2014 2:54:01 GMT -5
Quote - " That is how delusions are created! aka, The God Delusion Each person's belief differs a bit from another person's belief because of the differences in their experiences." If you read of Moses you learn he was the "meekest man in the all the world." That is a mark of someone who has had a relationship with God. You see that sign all throughout the bible - people brought low by levelling experiences. You cannot have someone saying that God has made them proud, arrogant or rude. It's not the same experience. I didn't mean that scientists trip over Aquinus philosophy - most have never read it, I am sure. I mean that scientists trip over what Aquinus posed, ie how can nothing create something. Quote - " 1. Investigate and understand the natural world. 2. Explain events in the natural world. 3. Use those explanations to make predictions."You are preaching to the converted. I am a science reader and I attend numerous science seminars (last week's was Dark Matter.)
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Post by snow on Nov 19, 2014 13:08:23 GMT -5
Quote - " That is how delusions are created! aka, The God Delusion Each person's belief differs a bit from another person's belief because of the differences in their experiences." If you read of Moses you learn he was the "meekest man in the all the world." That is a mark of someone who has had a relationship with God. You see that sign all throughout the bible - people brought low by levelling experiences. You cannot have someone saying that God has made them proud, arrogant or rude. It's not the same experience. I didn't mean that scientists trip over Aquinus philosophy - most have never read it, I am sure. I mean that scientists trip over what Aquinus posed, ie how can nothing create something. Quote - " 1. Investigate and understand the natural world. 2. Explain events in the natural world. 3. Use those explanations to make predictions."You are preaching to the converted. I am a science reader and I attend numerous science seminars (last week's was Dark Matter.) dark energy and dark matter are fascinating subjects. Taking a course right now that teaches about it. In a sense, something is made from 'nothing' all the time.
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Post by faune on Aug 14, 2015 14:54:17 GMT -5
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