|
Post by xna on Nov 11, 2014 18:52:01 GMT -5
I once thought we chose what we believe, now I don't think so. I suspect everyone holds some beliefs that are not true. The good news about the anti-vaccers is they are candidates for the Darwin Awards. www.darwinawards.com
|
|
|
Post by snow on Nov 11, 2014 19:25:09 GMT -5
I often wonder about those leaving a religion and becoming an atheist. It seems to me, the belief in a higher power is quite independent from the belief in the doctrine of any religion. However it also seems that so many people, once they see the flaws in religion, take the leap directly to atheist. Almost as if to say "well, this religion is clearly made up, so God (in any capacity) must be clearly made up too". I have found many people who are now atheist were once religious because of a long time of bible study and seeking truth. They tend to be the christians who take the god question seriously & dig deeper. I see many christian are christian because they were just born into that religion and don't really seek to know truth but just follow the traditions and customs; i.e.. to get along - they go along. Many christians can easily see other non christian religions don't make sense, and clearly can't be true. Taken further the 2x2 see their form of christianity as is the one true way, and all the other christian sect are wrong. I would suggest reading a book by John Loftus "The Outsider Test for Faith: How to Know Which Religion Is True ". He made the journey from a christian to an atheist and explains the journey. You might find this helps you understand the move from christian to atheist. John Loftus en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Loftus Bachelors degree (B.R.E.), from Great Lakes Christian College in 1977. Two masters degrees, M.A. & M.DiV., f Ordained as a minister in the Church of Christ and Taught apologetics, philosophy, and ethics Here is an sample youtu.be/xz-g3TX4alQI think in a lot of cases atheists and agnostics know more about what is in the bible than many Christians do. I know in talking with my birth family, they will be quoting things to me from the NT, verses that are quite commonly quoted in church. Then I will refer to something in the bible and they have never heard of it before. So I take them to where it says it and they don't know how to explain it. Many times they are surprised it's there, can't explain it, and say they will talk to their preacher about it to see what he thinks it means. If someone has been raised in a religion like we were, leaving wasn't done easily nor lightly. It was a hard move for me at least. I just knew I couldn't continue on. It was after that I started to research and try to make sense of things. The deeper you dig, the more it becomes evident, at least to me, that there could not be such a being. I know there is no choice in whether to believe in God or not anymore, not for me. It truly is the same as not believing in Santa Claus anymore and that isn't meant to be a slur, just an analogy.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 11, 2014 20:17:20 GMT -5
I often wonder about those leaving a religion and becoming an atheist. It seems to me, the belief in a higher power is quite independent from the belief in the doctrine of any religion. However it also seems that so many people, once they see the flaws in religion, take the leap directly to atheist. Almost as if to say "well, this religion is clearly made up, so God (in any capacity) must be clearly made up too". I have found many people who are now atheist were once religious because of a long time of bible study and seeking truth. They tend to be the christians who take the god question seriously & dig deeper. I see many christian are christian because they were just born into that religion and don't really seek to know truth but just follow the traditions and customs; i.e.. to get along - they go along. Many christians can easily see other non christian religions don't make sense, and clearly can't be true. Taken further the 2x2 see their form of christianity as is the one true way, and all the other christian sect are wrong. I would suggest reading a book by John Loftus "The Outsider Test for Faith: How to Know Which Religion Is True ". He made the journey from a christian to an atheist and explains the journey. You might find this helps you understand the move from christian to atheist. John Loftus en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Loftus Bachelors degree (B.R.E.), from Great Lakes Christian College in 1977. Two masters degrees, M.A. & M.DiV., f Ordained as a minister in the Church of Christ and Taught apologetics, philosophy, and ethics Here is an sample youtu.be/xz-g3TX4alQ Thank you xna, that was a great link:
John Loftus of Debunking Christianity fame talked about a test that all Christians should apply to themselves. His "Outsider's test of faith" says that "you should examine your own religion with the same level of skepticism that you use when examining other religions"
|
|
|
Post by faune on Nov 11, 2014 20:22:34 GMT -5
Wally ~ I'm not an atheist, but I do agree with the statement below, since it's really hard to reprogram your mind with truth once you have been filled a "bill of goods" for a number of years as "truth," but lacking any evidence to back it up.
In fact, I saw this article on another board on Facebook today that seems to speak about this "life in a box analogy" and the psychological harm it can do to a person over years of exposure. Here's that article that deals with legalistic religions that can do a number on your psyche due to their many rules requiring one's conformity and numerous lifestyle restrictions, which only increases one's anxiety and confusion over time.
new.exchristian.net/2014/11/psychological-harms-of-bible-believing.html?m=1
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 11, 2014 20:42:49 GMT -5
In what way do you think that an atheist might relate to that site?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 11, 2014 20:55:27 GMT -5
In fact, I saw this article on another board on Facebook today that seems to speak about this "life in a box analogy" and the psychological harm it can do to a person over years of exposure. Here's that article that deals with legalistic religions that can do a number on your psyche due to their many rules requiring one's conformity and numerous lifestyle restrictions, which only increases one's anxiety and confusion over time.
new.exchristian.net/2014/11/psychological-harms-of-bible-believing.html?m=1
This is the way religions operate. They need not be just legalistic religions, whatever that means.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 21:17:38 GMT -5
In what way do you think that an atheist might relate to that site?
that no matter what you say about atheism people are going to think what they want about it and the harder you try the more they believe what they already believed and even if your quiet their still going to believe what they believe
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 11, 2014 21:47:40 GMT -5
In what way do you think that an atheist might relate to that site?
that no matter what you say about atheism people are going to think what they want about it and the harder you try the more they believe what they already believed and even if your quiet their still going to believe what they believe I see. That can certainly be true.! We learned in Political Science that the repetition of a name helps the candidate be elected.
People get in the voter booth & tend to just vote for a name that they recognize. So I can see why that denials of bad information might reinforce it, simply because you have to repeat the information in order to denounce it. The research also highlights the disturbing reality that once an idea has been implanted in people’s minds, it can be difficult to dislodge. Denials inherently require repeating the bad information, which may be one reason they can paradoxically reinforce it.
Indeed, repetition seems to be a key culprit. Things that are repeated often become more accessible in memory, and one of the brain’s subconscious rules of thumb is that easily recalled things are true.
I think the reason that atheists speak out on irrational beliefs, religious or otherwise, is that many of us once believed them ourselves.
Now we hope others will take the same skeptical view of their beliefs the way that we did.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 0:08:08 GMT -5
I have found many people who are now atheist were once religious because of a long time of bible study and seeking truth. They tend to be the christians who take the god question seriously & dig deeper. I see many christian are christian because they were just born into that religion and don't really seek to know truth but just follow the traditions and customs; i.e.. to get along - they go along. Many christians can easily see other non christian religions don't make sense, and clearly can't be true. Taken further the 2x2 see their form of christianity as is the one true way, and all the other christian sect are wrong. I would suggest reading a book by John Loftus "The Outsider Test for Faith: How to Know Which Religion Is True ". He made the journey from a christian to an atheist and explains the journey. You might find this helps you understand the move from christian to atheist. John Loftus en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Loftus Bachelors degree (B.R.E.), from Great Lakes Christian College in 1977. Two masters degrees, M.A. & M.DiV., f Ordained as a minister in the Church of Christ and Taught apologetics, philosophy, and ethics Here is an sample youtu.be/xz-g3TX4alQI think in a lot of cases atheists and agnostics know more about what is in the bible than many Christians do. I know in talking with my birth family, they will be quoting things to me from the NT, verses that are quite commonly quoted in church. Then I will refer to something in the bible and they have never heard of it before. So I take them to where it says it and they don't know how to explain it. Many times they are surprised it's there, can't explain it, and say they will talk to their preacher about it to see what he thinks it means. If someone has been raised in a religion like we were, leaving wasn't done easily nor lightly. It was a hard move for me at least. I just knew I couldn't continue on. It was after that I started to research and try to make sense of things. The deeper you dig, the more it becomes evident, at least to me, that there could not be such a being. I know there is no choice in whether to believe in God or not anymore, not for me. It truly is the same as not believing in Santa Claus anymore and that isn't meant to be a slur, just an analogy. would even something like the rapture change your mind? would that be "proof" enough for you?
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 12, 2014 0:53:50 GMT -5
I think in a lot of cases atheists and agnostics know more about what is in the bible than many Christians do. I know in talking with my birth family, they will be quoting things to me from the NT, verses that are quite commonly quoted in church. Then I will refer to something in the bible and they have never heard of it before. So I take them to where it says it and they don't know how to explain it. Many times they are surprised it's there, can't explain it, and say they will talk to their preacher about it to see what he thinks it means. If someone has been raised in a religion like we were, leaving wasn't done easily nor lightly. It was a hard move for me at least. I just knew I couldn't continue on. It was after that I started to research and try to make sense of things. The deeper you dig, the more it becomes evident, at least to me, that there could not be such a being. I know there is no choice in whether to believe in God or not anymore, not for me. It truly is the same as not believing in Santa Claus anymore and that isn't meant to be a slur, just an analogy. would even something like the rapture change your mind? would that be "proof" enough for you? I think in a lot of cases atheists and agnostics know more about what is in the bible than many Christians do. I know in talking with my birth family, they will be quoting things to me from the NT, verses that are quite commonly quoted in church. Then I will refer to something in the bible and they have never heard of it before. So I take them to where it says it and they don't know how to explain it. Many times they are surprised it's there, can't explain it, and say they will talk to their preacher about it to see what he thinks it means. If someone has been raised in a religion like we were, leaving wasn't done easily nor lightly. It was a hard move for me at least. I just knew I couldn't continue on. It was after that I started to research and try to make sense of things. The deeper you dig, the more it becomes evident, at least to me, that there could not be such a being. I know there is no choice in whether to believe in God or not anymore, not for me. It truly is the same as not believing in Santa Claus anymore and that isn't meant to be a slur, just an analogy. would even something like the rapture change your mind? would that be "proof" enough for you? Since the "rapture" is a Christian concept why should we who aren't Christians even worry about it?
It is your problem. Do YOU need proof of the "rapture" in order to believe? "Rapture is a term in Christian eschatology which refers to the "being caught up" discussed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, when the "dead in Christ" and "we who are alive and remain" will be "caught up in the clouds" to meet "the Lord in the air".wiki
|
|
|
Post by matisse on Nov 12, 2014 7:31:35 GMT -5
I often wonder about those leaving a religion and becoming an atheist. It seems to me, the belief in a higher power is quite independent from the belief in the doctrine of any religion. However it also seems that so many people, once they see the flaws in religion, take the leap directly to atheist. Almost as if to say "well, this religion is clearly made up, so God (in any capacity) must be clearly made up too". It stopped making any sense to me that a God would create humans and then destroy most of them for not believing some ancient text. This is true of the Christian God - whether one looks at the 2x2s or any form of Christianity that asserts "Only through Christ". After having such a completely believable experience of a "God" I came to see as a well-crafted figment of my imagination, how could I ever trust those kinds of feelings and experiences again? This is why I will never again believe without direct, verifiable proof. If I am wrong, and it turns out there is a god like the one I used to believe in, watching and evaluating me after all, I trust that god will understand my absolute need for direct proof. I have seen no evidence that I got this wrong. is there an aloof, impersonal "Higher Power"? I don't know and don't know how I ever would. I expect anything that might qualify would be on the order of the Laws of the Universe/Multiverse/(??) and would be explored and described using some form of math and physics. I don't see any good reason to refer to something like this as "God". From my point of view, we are all in the same boat, no matter how much some people might believe they have been separated from the rest of us! I don't see you (honestabe), or anyone else here as being in an "unwanted section"!!
|
|
|
Post by faune on Nov 12, 2014 8:17:00 GMT -5
In fact, I saw this article on another board on Facebook today that seems to speak about this "life in a box analogy" and the psychological harm it can do to a person over years of exposure. Here's that article that deals with legalistic religions that can do a number on your psyche due to their many rules requiring one's conformity and numerous lifestyle restrictions, which only increases one's anxiety and confusion over time.
new.exchristian.net/2014/11/psychological-harms-of-bible-believing.html?m=1
This is the way religions operate. They need not be legalistic religions, whatever that means.
DMG ~ I described legalism in religion in my statement above. I assure you, not all churches today are so taken up with outward appearances and a bunch of ridiculous requirements for membership as the 2x2's and others like them who over-involve themselves within people's lives and lay heavy burdens upon them in the form of rules for acceptance within the group. This article should give a good example of how they rob people of their freedom in worship and replace it with bondage.
www.christianpost.com/news/how-to-spot-a-legalist-92015/
|
|
|
Post by faune on Nov 12, 2014 8:40:16 GMT -5
True. But it is a move in the right direction maybe? I often have wondered about leaving the 2x2's but still remaining Christian. Just a bigger box. But not all people are comfortable taking that flying leap into the abyss right away. It seems to come in stages based on comfort zones. And that's okay I guess. It is what it is. I often wonder about those leaving a religion and becoming an atheist. It seems to me, the belief in a higher power is quite independent from the belief in the doctrine of any religion. However it also seems that so many people, once they see the flaws in religion, take the leap directly to atheist. Almost as if to say "well, this religion is clearly made up, so God (in any capacity) must be clearly made up too". Many may point to scientific reasons they don't believe. And again, science may contradict or disprove religious texts, but it doesn't seem to altogether contradict the belief of a higher power behind nature (and perhaps more, that we don't know about). Now, if you say you believe in God but really don't know anything about him...does that really do you any good? Probably not. I guess you just kind of end up in the unwanted section, where neither religious people nor atheists want to claim you. Well, I guess I'm kind of describing an agnostic. Except more toward the "there is a God" side, just not really making any other claims. Honestabe ~ I can understand your heart better from what you described above. However, I see no problem with being honest with ourselves about religion in general and how it can complicate things in your life, if it's filled with legalistic requirements which entangle you in bondage over time. Personally, I feel it's good to remember that belief in God is a matter of faith, which doesn't have to be proven because it's based in the unseen, as described in Hebrews 11:1-3 ~ that great faith chapter in the Bible. Therefore, since none of us know for sure about God's role in the universe, we all pretty much stand as unknowing, which also defines an agnostic. JMT
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%2011%3A1-3&version=AMP;NIV;KJV
|
|
|
Post by matisse on Nov 12, 2014 9:49:57 GMT -5
<snip>Therefore, since none of us know for sure about God's role in the universe, we all pretty much stand as unknowing, which also defines an agnostic. JMT Faune, i'm not sure I am understanding where you are coming from. You seem to start with an assumption that there exists a "God" to have a role in the universe. That makes you some form of believer. Some of us do not start with the assumption that there is a God anywhere in the universe (not counting the ones that "exist" in the minds of believers), and see no reason to expect that there might be. I agree that none of us (except maybe rational) can ever know everything, but I disagree with your assertion (if I am understanding you correctly) that we are all agnostic. While I cannot prove there is no god, and I sometimes suggest that I will "believe it if I see it", really, I have zero expectation that one will ever appear.
|
|
|
Post by xna on Nov 12, 2014 12:17:50 GMT -5
I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think it addresses the part of my post that you quoted. Atheists may very well often know much about the bible, even more than Christians in many cases. This knowledge of the darker side of the bible/God (as he's portrayed in the bible) often contributes to their lack of belief. I understand that. My statement was more about how the lack of belief in religion often leads to a direct cord-cutting in a belief in God/gods/any higher power(s). I feel somewhat like the guy from the Da Vinci Code/Angels and Demons: Camerlengo Patrick McKenna: . Do you believe in God, sir? Robert Langdon: Father, I simply believe that religion... Camerlengo Patrick McKenna: I did not ask if you believe what man says about God. I asked if you believe in God. Robert Langdon: I'm an academic. My mind tells me I will never understand God. Camerlengo Patrick McKenna: And your heart? Robert Langdon: Tells me I'm not meant to. Faith is a gift that I have yet to receive. ~ honestable I think it comes down to the question of; how does one believe? Here science and theology differ. I no longer see that you can choose a belief, or force a belief; as is the christian way. The options are: you believe something, or you don't believe something. What you believe to be true should be based on the best evidence. For progress in understanding you must have an open mind, so when new facts are found, so should your beliefs. The default position is; if a claim can not be shown to be true it is assumed false. Faith is belief without evidence. If you have evidence that something is true, then you no longer need faith. If you follow the evidence, & use an outsiders test for faith, you may find no difference in any faith based religions. This may lead to you no longer believing a claim of one true god, or one true way... you loose your faith. This way of scientific thinking (understanding & beliefs change with new knowledge based on evidence) goes against traditional christian thinking ie. "I believe that I may understand". In science the default position is that a claim is not true until there is good evidence for it. If you read the bible with this skeptical approach it will change your beliefs. If you start with the conclusion that the bible is infallible then no amount of evidence will change your mind; the same yesterday, today, and forever. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credo_ut_intelligamen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 12:18:19 GMT -5
would even something like the rapture change your mind? would that be "proof" enough for you? would even something like the rapture change your mind? would that be "proof" enough for you? Since the "rapture" is a Christian concept why should we who aren't Christians even worry about it?
It is your problem. Do YOU need proof of the "rapture" in order to believe? "Rapture is a term in Christian eschatology which refers to the "being caught up" discussed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, when the "dead in Christ" and "we who are alive and remain" will be "caught up in the clouds" to meet "the Lord in the air".wiki i'm not all the way there on the rapture yet i'm just curious how snow is gonna react when/if it happens...for me if it happens i wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't happen thats okay too.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 12, 2014 13:53:43 GMT -5
This is the way religions operate. They need not be legalistic religions, whatever that means.
DMG ~ I described legalism in religion in my statement above. I assure you, not all churches today are so taken up with outward appearances and a bunch of ridiculous requirements for membership as the 2x2's and others like them who over involve themselves so p within people's lives and lay heavy burdens upon them in the form of rules for membership and acceptance by the group. This article should give a good example of how they rob people of their freedom in worship and replace it with bondage.
www.christianpost.com/news/how-to-spot-a-legalist-92015/
Faune, the above link that you gave, The Christian Post, reads like a legalistic, fundamentalist concept in itself! This column tells one legalistic way they would control a person's life.Christian Post Guest Columnist One Life Lost, All Lives Diminished: Brittany Maynard and Assisted SuicideBy John Stonestreet , Brittany Maynard was the perfect story for the so-called "death with dignity" movement: Young, intelligent and facing a debilitating and extraordinarily painful death from brain cancer. And on November 1st, with the support of loved ones, she chose to end her life, as she said it, "on her own terms."
But her decision was misguided and it was wrong, for all of us. Let me explain.
First, let's clear up the euphemisms that are involved with the death with dignity movement. "Ending your own life" is called suicide. That's what it is.
And the phrase "on your own terms"? It's a concept signifying nothing—it's an illusion. If we were in control, we'd choose not to contract a fatal illness in the first place.
What a horrible thing to say! There is no way that we have any "choice" whether contracting such a disease!
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 12, 2014 14:14:34 GMT -5
I think it comes down to the question of; how does one believe? Here science and theology differ. I no longer see that you can choose a belief, or force a belief; as is the christian way. The options are: you believe something, or you don't believe something. What you believe to be true should be based on the best evidence. For progress in understanding you must have an open mind, so when new facts are found, so should your beliefs. The default position is; if a claim can not be shown to be true it is assumed false. Faith is belief without evidence. If you have evidence that something is true, then you no longer need faith. If you follow the evidence, & use an outsiders test for faith, you may find no difference in any faith based religions. This may lead to you no longer believing a claim of one true god, or one true way... you loose your faith. This way of scientific thinking (understanding & beliefs change with new knowledge based on evidence) goes against traditional christian thinking ie. "I believe that I may understand". In science the default position is that a claim is not true until there is good evidence for it. If you read the bible with this skeptical approach it will change your beliefs. If you start with the conclusion that the bible is infallible then no amount of evidence will change your mind; the same yesterday, today, and forever. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credo_ut_intelligamen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof xna,
You have stated it very well!
That is one of the best explanations that I have ever heard!
|
|
|
Post by xna on Nov 12, 2014 14:17:03 GMT -5
I get what you're saying. I'm not talking about Christianity or any religion (maybe the movie reference was misleading in that aspect). Nowhere am I stating that the bible is infallible. I'm just talking about the full-fledged belief that there is no higher power. Neither of us can prove there is or isn't. I say "I believe there is a God (of some sort), but I could be wrong". Atheists seem to say "I don't believe there is a God, and I am right". Now I admit, plenty of God-believers also may add "and I am right" to the end of their beliefs (which are often about some very specific God). I guess it comes down to...I can't relate to those who feel so certain in their beliefs, regardless of what those beliefs are. How can people have zero doubt about that which is unknown? I don't need absolute certainty to believe something is true, or something is not true. I believe that a god does not exist just like I believe the tooth fairy does not exist, but I can't prove either one. A atheist lacks a belief in god or gods. A "lack of a belief" is not a "belief" like "baldness" is not a "hair color". If someone makes a claim that a god exists the burden of proof is upon them, as you can not prove a negative. I do not have 100% certainty about anything that I believe, as all knowledge is provisional. And I do not have 100% certianity about what I do NOT believe, for the same reason. In religion any doubt is bad, but in science any belief without some doubt, is bad. JMT
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 12, 2014 14:33:22 GMT -5
I get what you're saying. I'm not talking about Christianity or any religion (maybe the movie reference was misleading in that aspect). Nowhere am I stating that the bible is infallible. I'm just talking about the full-fledged belief that there is no higher power. Neither of us can prove there is or isn't. I say "I believe there is a God (of some sort), but I could be wrong". Atheists seem to say "I don't believe there is a God, and I am right". Now I admit, plenty of God-believers also may add "and I am right" to the end of their beliefs (which are often about some very specific God). I guess it comes down to...I can't relate to those who feel so certain in their beliefs, regardless of what those beliefs are. How can people have zero doubt about that which is unknown? honestabe !
Why do you add the phrase "and I am right" onto the definition of "atheist?"
That is NOT in the definition of Atheism!
As a atheist all I am saying is there is no evidence for a "god' or "gods!" I'm not saying that I am "right" or you are "wrong!" That isn't even any part of the equation!
|
|
|
Post by faune on Nov 12, 2014 14:45:19 GMT -5
I think it comes down to the question of; how does one believe? Here science and theology differ. I no longer see that you can choose a belief, or force a belief; as is the christian way. The options are: you believe something, or you don't believe something. What you believe to be true should be based on the best evidence. For progress in understanding you must have an open mind, so when new facts are found, so should your beliefs. The default position is; if a claim can not be shown to be true it is assumed false. Faith is belief without evidence. If you have evidence that something is true, then you no longer need faith. If you follow the evidence, & use an outsiders test for faith, you may find no difference in any faith based religions. This may lead to you no longer believing a claim of one true god, or one true way... you loose your faith. This way of scientific thinking (understanding & beliefs change with new knowledge based on evidence) goes against traditional christian thinking ie. "I believe that I may understand". In science the default position is that a claim is not true until there is good evidence for it. If you read the bible with this skeptical approach it will change your beliefs. If you start with the conclusion that the bible is infallible then no amount of evidence will change your mind; the same yesterday, today, and forever. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credo_ut_intelligamen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof xna,
You have stated it very well!
That is one of the best explanations that I have ever heard!
DMG ~ That's one reason why I started a thread a while back concerning if religion and science could be considered compatible. In my opinion, I see it more like oil and water mixing, which isn't viewed possible, when you think about it? Such an analogy just doesn't make sense, because you are talking about a realm of faith in religion and a realm of proven fact in science. Also, faith in religion is based upon believing in what we cannot see; whereas, science is based upon what can be proven through logic and scientific testing.
Xna ~ That was a very insightful article you presented above, too!
professing.proboards.com/thread/22176/religion-science-considered-compatible?page=1
|
|
|
Post by faune on Nov 12, 2014 15:04:40 GMT -5
<snip>Therefore, since none of us know for sure about God's role in the universe, we all pretty much stand as unknowing, which also defines an agnostic. JMT Faune, i'm not sure I am understanding where you are coming from. You seem to start with an assumption that there exists a "God" to have a role in the universe. That makes you some form of believer. Some of us do not start with the assumption that there is a God anywhere in the universe (not counting the ones that "exist" in the minds of believers), and see no reason to expect that there might be. I agree that none of us (except maybe rational) can ever know everything, but I disagree with your assertion (if I am understanding you correctly) that we are all agnostic. While I cannot prove there is no god, and I sometimes suggest that I will "believe it if I see it", really, I have zero expectation that one will ever appear. Matisse ~ Perhaps the only way that we really differ is that you seem more convinced than I do that God doesn't exist? However, I simply feel none of us can know for sure either way until this life comes to a close and we're on the other side of this mortal coil? That's basically what I meant to say anyway. In addition, it's more a matter of faith in a Creator God existing due to what's recorded in the Bible than anything else. I also realize there is a lot about Christianity that also challenges our imagination, too, especially some of the stories recorded in the Bible that defies rational thought. However, I'm not as convinced as some others that the Bible is totally inerrant and can be taken literally, too.
|
|
|
Post by xna on Nov 12, 2014 15:07:25 GMT -5
Faune, i'm not sure I am understanding where you are coming from. You seem to start with an assumption that there exists a "God" to have a role in the universe. That makes you some form of believer. Some of us do not start with the assumption that there is a God anywhere in the universe (not counting the ones that "exist" in the minds of believers), and see no reason to expect that there might be. I agree that none of us (except maybe rational) can ever know everything, but I disagree with your assertion (if I am understanding you correctly) that we are all agnostic. While I cannot prove there is no god, and I sometimes suggest that I will "believe it if I see it", really, I have zero expectation that one will ever appear. Matisse ~ Perhaps the only way that we really differ is that you seem more convinced than me that God doesn't exist. However, I simply feel none of us can know for sure either way until this life comes to a close and we're on the other side of this mortal coil? That's basically what I meant to say anyway, besides it more a matter of faith in a Creator God existing than anything else. I also realize there is a lot about Christianity that also challenges our imagination, too, especially some of the stories recorded in the Bible that defies rational thought. I am both an atheist and agnostic. This is the meaning of the words I use. Attachments:
|
|
|
Post by xna on Nov 12, 2014 15:11:33 GMT -5
Faune, i'm not sure I am understanding where you are coming from. You seem to start with an assumption that there exists a "God" to have a role in the universe. That makes you some form of believer. Some of us do not start with the assumption that there is a God anywhere in the universe (not counting the ones that "exist" in the minds of believers), and see no reason to expect that there might be. I agree that none of us (except maybe rational) can ever know everything, but I disagree with your assertion (if I am understanding you correctly) that we are all agnostic. While I cannot prove there is no god, and I sometimes suggest that I will "believe it if I see it", really, I have zero expectation that one will ever appear. Matisse ~ Perhaps the only way that we really differ is that you seem more convinced than I do that God doesn't exist? However, I simply feel none of us can know for sure either way until this life comes to a close and we're on the other side of this mortal coil? That's basically what I meant to say anyway. In addition, it's more a matter of faith in a Creator God existing due to what's recorded in the Bible than anything else. I also realize there is a lot about Christianity that also challenges our imagination, too, especially some of the stories recorded in the Bible that defies rational thought. However, I'm not as convinced as some others that the Bible is totally inerrant and can be taken literally, too. I have heard that the only thing that we can know is 100% true is: The Law Of Logical Absolutes, but I have my doubt about that too. rationalwiki.org/wiki/Essay:On_Logical_Absolutes
|
|
|
Post by faune on Nov 12, 2014 15:13:14 GMT -5
honestabe !
Why do you add the phrase "and I am right" onto the definition of "atheist?"
That is NOT in the definition of Atheism!
As a atheist all I am saying is there is no evidence for a "god' or "gods!" I'm not saying that I am "right" or you are "wrong!" That isn't even any part of the equation!
I'm probably biased because of links from Atheist sites showing up on my Facebook news feed that Atheist friends have liked. The comments on whatever the article is (usually pro-science, anti-god, which is fine) are almost always demeaning, derogatory, and insulting the intelligence of anyone that believes in God. People on this board are much more civil and tolerant, and up for good discussion. If that's all you're saying, shouldn't you be considered agnostic? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Agnosticism based simply on the lack of knowledge/evidence of God, whereas Atheism also mixes in the personal belief that there isn't a god? Honestable ~ Actually there's such a person as an "agnostic atheist," along with numerous other descriptions connected to Atheism, as shown in this article below from an atheistic website.
commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6487 17 Kinds of Atheism
|
|
|
Post by xna on Nov 12, 2014 15:47:23 GMT -5
Honestable ~ Actually there's such a person as an "agnostic atheist," along with numerous other descriptions connected to Atheism, as shown in this article below from an atheistic website.
commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6487 17 Kinds of Atheism
I didn't know there were 17. Still it's much simpler being an atheist, only 17 varieties vs. 41,000 varieties of Christian. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 12, 2014 15:54:05 GMT -5
honestabe !
Why do you add the phrase "and I am right" onto the definition of "atheist?"
That is NOT in the definition of Atheism!
As a atheist all I am saying is there is no evidence for a "god' or "gods!" I'm not saying that I am "right" or you are "wrong!" That isn't even any part of the equation!
I'm probably biased because of links from Atheist sites showing up on my Facebook news feed that Atheist friends have liked. The comments on whatever the article is (usually pro-science, anti-god, which is fine) are almost always demeaning, derogatory, and insulting the intelligence of anyone that believes in God. People on this board are much more civil and tolerant, and up for good discussion. If that's all you're saying, shouldn't you be considered agnostic? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Agnosticism based simply on the lack of knowledge/evidence of God, whereas Atheism also mixes in the personal belief that there isn't a god? Defining agnosticismThomas Henry Huxley said:[11][12]
"Agnosticism, in fact, is not a creed, but a method, the essence of which lies in the rigorous application of a single principle ... Positively the principle may be expressed: In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other consideration. And negatively: In matters of the intellect do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable.
According to philosopher William L. Rowe, in the strict sense, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify either the belief that God exists or the belief that God does not exist." wiki
No, I am not an agnostic, -I am an atheist. I DO believe human reason is capable of providing sufficient rational grounds to believe that a God or Gods does not exist.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2014 15:58:53 GMT -5
I'm probably biased because of links from Atheist sites showing up on my Facebook news feed that Atheist friends have liked. The comments on whatever the article is (usually pro-science, anti-god, which is fine) are almost always demeaning, derogatory, and insulting the intelligence of anyone that believes in God. People on this board are much more civil and tolerant, and up for good discussion. If that's all you're saying, shouldn't you be considered agnostic? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Agnosticism based simply on the lack of knowledge/evidence of God, whereas Atheism also mixes in the personal belief that there isn't a god? Honestable ~ Actually there's such a person as an "agnostic atheist," along with numerous other descriptions connected to Atheism, as shown in this article below from an atheistic website.
commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6487 17 Kinds of Atheism
careful now...rational will come back with his red truck green truck atheist...
|
|