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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 20, 2014 9:38:59 GMT -5
Examples from the workers of the concept called the "Living Witness Doctrine." Although the term is not often heard or used by the Friends or Workers today, the concept of the Living Witness Doctrine is taught and is very much in evidence. Buzz words are still used today, which are found in Henry Drummond's book! If there was no connection between Drummond's theory and the group's belief that one must hear their message through one of their worker messengers, then it seems peculiar that the Workers often use the same descriptive phrases found in Drummond's book. When asked to explain the doctrine of "the only way," a Canadian brother worker stated:
"Look at it like this. I have no idea who my great-great-grandfather was, but I know that he had to exist, because here I am today. We know how life begets life, and it is the same spiritually. I do not believe in some form of apostolic succession--that would be like the Catholic church. People might build their faith on that, but I would like to believe that the friends and ministry did come down through history that way." (Eldon Kendrew in personal visit w/John & Shawna Mitchell June 4, 1995)
Eldon Tenniswood, Overseer of Western U.S.A., was known to often use the analogy that seed produces after its own kind (“corn begets corn and wheat begets wheat”) to illustrate that life begets life, going back to the beginning.
While on a world wide convention tour, Willis Propp wrote in a letter dated April 15, 1987: "You have believed that the seed of the Gospel produces after its kind in any land, in people of any color, race, or former creed, but you believe it more as you journey through England, Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Hong Kong, Lorea, Japan, USA and back to Canada."
There may be a few exceptional 2x2s, but a very high percentage of the people and even a higher percentage of workers will say that this is how God has ordained it. Jesus tried to get through to some who were mistaken about their importance: "And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous and despised others," Luke 18:9. This type reasoning was also observed in some by the prophet Zephaniah: "This is the rejoicing city that dwelt carelessly, that said in her heart, I am, and there is none beside me: how is she become a desolation..." Zeph. 2:15.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 9:58:15 GMT -5
Some young men and women give up their lives to go preach to outsiders. It's strange that some of these outsiders think these preachers actually "despise" them.
I can see the despising, and I can see where it is coming from.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 10:16:13 GMT -5
Cherie - what you say above is absolutely correct. Most workers I have spoken to on this topic maintain (either directly or indirectly) that the only way to find salvation is to hear the Gospel preached by them - through the homeless ministry. I haven't heard the words "living witness doctrine" mentioned by them but this doctrine is very much part of their ministry. Many of them get very uneasy if you mention, for instance, Philip, described in Acts as "the evangelist" who was married (at some point - at least, he had daughters) and had a home of his own. So how come he brought salvation to the Ethiopian eunuch on his own (i.e. not two by two)?
I should add that although I remain part of this fellowship, there are - increasingly - those amongst us who do not subscribe to the "living witness doctrine" and who are not exclusive.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 12:24:45 GMT -5
Nathan, every true believer is a "witness" for Christ!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2014 23:25:42 GMT -5
Quote - ".... churches who insist on re-baptising folk who are already Christians are missing the point." As I see it, if you are "already Christian" then why come to us at all?
Quote - "I can relate more to the RCC view of Christ than the 2x2 view. The RCC view of Christ is simply that he is the Son of God and God (the Son) - very standard Christian teaching. I'm with you on transubstantiation, Mary Queen of Heaven etc" So Ross, you see Jesus as some gorgeous Anglo Saxon, Old Testament guy who decided to reign alongside his mother in heaven, starting wars, murdering pagans and apostates, and accumulating earthly treasures?
Quote - "The Living Witness Doctrine is simply exclusivity and that salvation can only be "achieved" via a 2x2 worker. It's nonsense but there are many folk in the 2x2 fellowship who don't subscribe to it." Maybe you think all ways lead to God, and God happens to be whatever the prevailing cultural norm thinks Him to be?
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logain
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Post by logain on Nov 20, 2014 23:45:10 GMT -5
I find it interesting that the Living Witness Doctrine, a cornerstone of 2x2 teaching in my area and time, is based on (or identical to) the theory/law of biogenesis.
Yet the law/theory of evolution is still mocked and ridiculed.
When I was a child the name of William Irvine was never uttered but since the time of the internet and the publishing of "The Secret Sect", the name does arise upon occasion. Often he is delicately referred to as an older worker or overseer who had gone wrong.
Prior to the internet there was hardly any need for a cover-up, simply not raising the subject was enough. Now with the ability to share information via the internet, a simple purposeful omission is just as though it were a cover-up.
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Post by snow on Nov 21, 2014 11:04:08 GMT -5
Quote - ".... churches who insist on re-baptising folk who are already Christians are missing the point." As I see it, if you are "already Christian" then why come to us at all?Agree...Quote - "I can relate more to the RCC view of Christ than the 2x2 view. The RCC view of Christ is simply that he is the Son of God and God (the Son) - very standard Christian teaching. I'm with you on transubstantiation, Mary Queen of Heaven etc" So Ross, you see Jesus as some gorgeous Anglo Saxon, Old Testament guy who decided to reign alongside his mother in heaven, starting wars, murdering pagans and apostates, and accumulating earthly treasures?Not sure where you get this from - the RCC see Him as the Son of God (God the Son) who died in our place. You are talking about what the RCC as a church has done which I don't support.
Quote - "The Living Witness Doctrine is simply exclusivity and that salvation can only be "achieved" via a 2x2 worker. It's nonsense but there are many folk in the 2x2 fellowship who don't subscribe to it." Maybe you think all ways lead to God, and God happens to be whatever the prevailing cultural norm thinks Himto be?That is the usual answer in defence of exclusivity. Christ leads to us to the Father...the Biblical version of Christ is what I follow - not a post-Christian secular view.
The Living Witness Doctrine is ridiculous and while I understand why some 2x2 folk hang onto exclusivity (because it underpins their faith - largely in the ministry), at its essence it is a pretty proud and self-righteous doctrine. Isn't complaining about the exclusivity of 2x2's a little like calling the kettle black? All Christians are exclusive. I've been told over and over here that unless I give my life to Jesus and believe in the Christian God I am going to hell forever. That, my friend, is a very exclusive message.
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Post by Greg on Nov 21, 2014 14:10:25 GMT -5
Nathan, every true believer is a "witness" for Christ! Likely he believes that. You two and others might disagree about who is a true believer.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 21, 2014 18:01:55 GMT -5
What they did was nothing new. It was a practice so long in use that there is a Latin term for it: “Damnatio Memoriae” meaning "damnation of memory". It refers to a custom dating back to antiquity - the attempted removal of a famous person from the historical record for reasons of dishonour. Roman emperors used to order the destruction or removal of portraits or statues of disgraced members of their family. The Romans called the forbidding of mentioning a person and purging and destruction of any records that they existed, "damnatio memoriae" and employed it on many occasions. It was one of their harshest judgments. It is also interesting is that it seldom worked in the long run, once people began to notice the gaps left behind and started asking questions again after the enforcement died down. There is a common photo that included Wm Irvine when originally taken--there are some copies of it where he is cut off. See TTT Photo Gallery photo of Carrolls, Jamiesons with and without Irvine Yes, indeed. We still see this in the everyday work places in the good ole USA! Not so many years ago, after having worked hard for up the ladder promotions and as I was but perhaps 1 position below top every day boss, the company sent in new managers. And I knew pretty well what would happen...you bet! Every one of us upper to do employees found ourselves out the door either by pink slip or a constant barrage of manipulations that some left on their own power......knowing it was only a short time before they too, would see pink in their PO box near the time clock! I think about how people tend to be afraid of what's been before them instead of striving to get along with those who have been through the mill and know more about the business esp. in that place....they'd rather start out right dumb and green!
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 21, 2014 18:04:37 GMT -5
Modern Examples of damnatio memoriae
• More modern examples of damnatio memoriae in actual practice include the removal of portraits, books, doctoring people out of pictures, and any other traces of Joseph Stalin's opponents during the Great Purge (for example in the Great Soviet Encyclopedia). When the Soviet Union football team lost to Yugoslavia at the 1952 Summer Olympics, Stalin ordered that all footage of the event was to be destroyed.[8] Stalin himself was edited out of some propaganda films when Nikita Khrushchev became the leader of the Soviet Union, and the city of Tsaritsyn that had earlier been named Stalingrad was renamed Volgograd in 1961.
• Convicted child rapist and retired assistant coach Jerry Sandusky was edited out of a mural at Penn State University, and replaced with a blue ribbon. The famous coach Joe Paterno also had a statue of him and the backwall to it removed, along with the record of his victories from 1998 through 2011 (out of a head coaching career spanning 1966 to 2011) vacated (Paterno does, however, remain on the same mural from which Sandusky was omitted).
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 21, 2014 18:12:38 GMT -5
Quote - "The NT is clear that Christians are baptised into Christ Jesus (Romans 6:3-5), not into a particular church or fellowship. The belief that you espoused is absolutely correct as far as the 2x2's are concerned, but completely wrong as far as the Bible is concerned." We reserve the right, LIKE MANY CHURCHES, to have people baptized into our church, regardless of what baptism they might already have experienced. I myself, personally, DON'T EVEN RECOGNIZE THE JESUS IN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, let alone the bizarre RCC doctrines already mentioned, ie Trinity; Co-substantiation, Tran- substantiation, Mary Queen of Heaven etc.. So why would we recognize a RCC baptism?
And allegations from former members (always former members, not current ones) that we have hidden doctrines of "living witness" and "biogenesis" and "natural spiritual law" are just lame attempts (fibs actually) to portray us as being no different than RCC's (and others) when it comes to doctrines of man.Fair point but those churches who insist on re-baptising folk who are already Christians are missing the point. I can relate more to the RCC view of Christ than the 2x2 view. The RCC view of Christ is simply that he is the Son of God and God (the Son) - very standard Christian teaching. I'm with you on transubstantiation, Mary Queen of Heaven etc The Living Witness Doctrine is simply exclusivity and that salvation can only be "achieved" via a 2x2 worker. It's nonsense but there are many folk in the 2x2 fellowship who don't subscribe to it. Speaking to the "queen of heaven", I believe it is in Jeremiah and all those things that God had brought to Jeremiah's mind that the children of Israel and Judah had certainly been worshipping wrongfully and one was the "queen of heaven". My bible's margin spoke of this queen of heaven as being the borders of heaven...otherwords making an idol out of the walls of heaven and not who resides there perhaps....not much farther to the angel worshipping that was noted in other parts of the bible, I believe. There were to be NO other persons or living entities or living persons to be idolized outside of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost..... This kind of brings the subject back to when Jesus was worshipped by those that were about him...such as Nathaniel and even the doubting Thomas....and Jesus never corrected either one that they were doing a wrong thing...because as he was the express image of the Father, he was due the adoration of those who sought to follow him and learn from him, much less be cleansed by his willing sacrifice!
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Post by withlove on Nov 21, 2014 23:28:40 GMT -5
What they did was nothing new. It was a practice so long in use that there is a Latin term for it: “Damnatio Memoriae” meaning "damnation of memory". It refers to a custom dating back to antiquity - the attempted removal of a famous person from the historical record for reasons of dishonour. Roman emperors used to order the destruction or removal of portraits or statues of disgraced members of their family. The Romans called the forbidding of mentioning a person and purging and destruction of any records that they existed, "damnatio memoriae" and employed it on many occasions. It was one of their harshest judgments. It is also interesting is that it seldom worked in the long run, once people began to notice the gaps left behind and started asking questions again after the enforcement died down. There is a common photo that included Wm Irvine when originally taken--there are some copies of it where he is cut off. See TTT Photo Gallery photo of Carrolls, Jamiesons with and without Irvine In those pics...are the two ladies wearing necklaces??? Or maybe some kind of lanyard for keys?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2014 7:08:47 GMT -5
Nathan, every true believer is a "witness" for Christ! Likely he believes that. You two and others might disagree about who is a true believer. Yes things mean different things to different people.
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 22, 2014 13:18:25 GMT -5
In those pics...are the two ladies wearing necklaces??? Or maybe some kind of lanyard for keys? Lanyard with a watch
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 23, 2014 19:13:39 GMT -5
Cooney's Testimony re: Living Witness The only remedy was to return to God and cease mixing God's revelation with that which proceeded from flesh and blood. This the writer has sought to do with profit.
William had been partially persuaded by Joe Kerr to accept the heresy that no one could be born again without meeting a living witness. Others held that that witness must be a sent preacher who had heard William or some preacher who had heard him.The writer got to see this flesh and blood revelation to be vile and gave it up in 1914, returning to the true gospel preached by himself and William for four years after they met, which recognized John 20:30 to be true, and Paul's dialogue in Romans 10:14-18 answered by Psalm 19, where it shows God speaking thro’ nature as he did to the magi thro’ the law (which is perfect converting the soul,) and finally thro’ the preacher, the words of whose mouth and meditation of whose heart is acceptable in God’s sight.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2014 20:22:42 GMT -5
Nathan, every true believer is a "witness" for Christ! I was advised that if I am called up for Jury Duty, in a case involving the Mafia, that I should tell the jury selectors, "I am happy to do this case because I don't like Italians."
Is that relevant to what you wrote,or this thread, or what?
But let me repeat, "The so-called cover-up of Irvine began when Irvine began saying he invented the Truth."
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 23, 2014 22:13:02 GMT -5
Nathan, every true believer is a "witness" for Christ! I was advised that if I am called up for Jury Duty, in a case involving the Mafia, that I should tell the jury selectors, "I am happy to do this case because I don't like Italians."
Is that relevant to what you wrote,or this thread, or what?
But let me repeat, "The so-called cover-up of Irvine began when Irvine began saying he invented the Truth."
When and where did Irvine say that, Bert?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 4:12:39 GMT -5
Nathan, every true believer is a "witness" for Christ! I was advised that if I am called up for Jury Duty, in a case involving the Mafia, that I should tell the jury selectors, "I am happy to do this case because I don't like Italians."
Is that relevant to what you wrote,or this thread, or what?
But let me repeat, "The so-called cover-up of Irvine began when Irvine began saying he invented the Truth."
Bert, what possible objection could anyone have to my statement which I repeat: "Every true believer is a witness for Christ!"We are all called to be witnesses. This is the "real" living witness doctrine! "Doth the sparrow chasten the dove as they devour seed"
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2014 12:05:41 GMT -5
"I will henceforth seek to live for Jesus/Help me Lord a witness true to be". I am sure that everyone who is seeking to follow Jesus in spirit and truth is (or should be) a living witness. And, as ram has said, this is the true "living witness" doctrine.
I recently heard an overseas worker visiting the UK say in a gospel meeting "Salvation is not about joining a religion or joining a group. It is about having a living relationship with the Lord". Wish we heard a bit more stuff like that in gospel meetings instead of a lot of vague talk about the "Way".
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