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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 23, 2014 11:22:10 GMT -5
THE NEED OF A PROPHET
October 11, 1930 PO Box 696 Jerusalem, Palestine
My Dear Friends;
Thanks for yours. The world is full of false prophets and prophecy, and every man seems to walk in his own thoughts and ways, iniquity and hypocrisy, so why not the need for a true Prophet? And don’t think God will ask any man in the matter.
The Book is full of proofs that such a man is to be Prophet or Mouthpiece of God for these days, if people can’t see, then it is proof that they have no light, or worse, the light of them is darkness.
We have had 17 years of the beginning of sorrows according to what Jesus said in Matt. 24, etc. in diverse places and now we are to have world wide war, famine, pestilence and plagues for 7 years to end the whole fabric of religion, racialism and the language babel on the earth. What began at Babel is to end in the destruction of Babylon as you can see from Rev. 17 and 18. The Reader of revelation and those who hear his reading are the New Seed for the Kingdom of God being set up on the earth.
You can see in Rev 22 what it will mean for all who either add to or take from the words of this prophecy, by the reading of the Boo by the Man. A Prophet is a man on the earth for whom the Spirit of God is to see, hear and witness. People always loved the dead Prophets, but either did not feel the need of, or give ear to a living Prophet.
Jesus is on the Throne in Heaven, and most every form of righteousness on the earth is carried on in His name, and backed by His written record; SO WHY NOT A PROPHET?
Isaiah 55 is a record of this servant, whom Jesus makes Witness, Leader & Commander, for all who will hear Him. People’s attitude toward God, Jesus and the Spirit is known by their attitude to the Servant. All who will hear my reading of Revelation, which is the program of Judgment of all man from 1914 to the end, will find a place of shelter, provision and comfort. All others will perish from the earth. This is the reading of the whole Book, as it was in Noah’s time to now.
My best wishes for you, Hear and your soul shall live, refuse and perish.
Wm Irvine
Source: This was in the recent stash of letters written by Wm Irvine that I received from an Arizona Omega follower of WmI.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 23, 2014 15:52:43 GMT -5
And who would that "living prophet" be, I wonder?
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 23, 2014 17:02:53 GMT -5
Wm Irvine claimed many Biblical titles for himself. For example:
Title: A Prophet Title: One of the Two Witnesses Title: The Reader Titles: The Anointed One; Son of Man; The Sower; Servant; Angel-Sent One; Reception of his Omega Message (The Hearers) Title: Least One And The Least Of These My Brethren Title: Witness, Leader And Commander Title: Man Child and The Woman Body Title: Overcomer Of Omega Days Title: King of the Kingdom, Judge and Rewarder; Sheep & Goats
Irvine claimed for himself the title and office of A PROPHET: He believed that in every dispensation, God has ONLY spoken to mankind through a Prophet or Apostle; a Man or “Sent One” that God set His Seal upon or Anointed. “God's Way is Theocracy--A Man through whom He speaks and works, producing a people and building a house." (August 11, 1921 Letter to Nobles) When the Judgment Program began in August, 1914, the Spirit ceased to strive with men, and God once again selected A Prophet to speak through. A key passage of scripture used in the Omega Message is: FROM: Deuteronomy 18: 8-19 - “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.” (See also Acts 3:19-26). FROM: Acts 3:22 - “And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you; whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass that every soul, which will not hear that prophet shall be destroyed from among the people.” Wm. Irvine believed Moses was referring, not to Messiah or Jesus, but to a NEW prophet God would raise up specifically for the Judgment Days. Therefore, Irvine concluded that the prophet Moses was speaking of who was like unto me, (Me = Moses) was a common man, born to two human parents. Since Jesus was born of woman and God, He was the God-child; and therefore they reason, was not like Moses, and so Moses was not speaking about Jesus in Deut. 18:18-19. On the other hand, he reasoned that he, Wm Irvine, was a man like Moses, since he was a common man born to two human parents. And his followers believe God chose Wm. Irvine to be the Prophet Moses spoke of, who was given a role similar to John the Baptist who came to warn people to repent and change because the Kingdom was at hand. Wm Irvine referred to himself as The Prophet of the Last days; That Prophet; and The Prophet of Restitution of All Things. He believed that Jesus would remain in Heaven until the restitution of all things, and that Wm. Irvine was chosen to be the Prophet of Restitution and give the Message of Revelation to the world. “…I draw your attention to the fact that there is to be only ONE Prophet in the Last Days. So I don’t discuss whether I am a prophet, but tell you frankly, I am The Prophet whom Moses speaks of in Deut. 18:18-19 and Acts 3:19-26, who is the Prophet of Restitution of All Things in preparation for Jesus returning to earth, for He has been received into Heaven till the time comes. A Prophet must be A Man of the people of the time of his day; raised up by the Lord alone, like unto Moses; and his words will mean life or death to the whole world according to the way people receive them; to put them in order and put an end to a world full of false prophets.” (December 21, 1927 Letter to Laws) “Get to know all the Bible says about The Prophet for these days. It will help you to see how simple it is for all men—Him, the prophet, shall ye hear in all things, and whosoever will not hear That Prophet shall be destroyed from amongst the people- Acts 3 and Deuteronomy 18, which is speaking of The Prophet Revelation shows us, and his message is the pure River of Water of Life—Revelation 19:7&8--Let us be glad and rejoice when Jesus comes to meet those who have heard His Prophet and Message…” (May 6, 1928 Letter to Mrs. Mattes) Dave Dempster, an Omega Message Follower who corresponded with Wm Irvine from Australia, explained to the Sydney Morning Herald readers how Irvine was called to preach and was made The Last Prophet. Keep in mind that Irvine was from originally Scotland, which is in the North: “…Isaiah 41:10-11. It was on the strength of that chapter that he went out to preach when God called him… verse 25 shows the Last Prophet would come from the North. ‘I have raised up one from the north and he shall come: From the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: And he shall come upon princes as upon morter and as the potter treadeth clay. Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know?’” When questioned about his claim to be a Prophet, Irvine gave the following explanations: “The way to prove that I am His Prophet is to put my message to the test every chance you get; and make chances for that matter… If you read the Bible where and when it has been opened to you, by MY Reading and His Spirit, then it will help you, otherwise it will hinder you.” (April 4 1929 Letter to Helen Kellogg) “For if we let Him come into us by His Spirit, we will soon find out that the Spirit will give us words, understanding, and wisdom. This is the only way we can be sure I am the Prophet.” (October 18, 1931 Letter to Warren Hooper) ”People want to know what authority I have for being the Son of Man and Prophet, I know, and no other is supposed to know, but such as hear my words and obey them can know by the results in themselves.” (November 12, 1929 Letter to Ritzmans) “By 40 years experience and 1,000 marks that prove I am the Prophet…If you had asked Noah such a question, he would have left you to find out with the other 80,000,000 who did not believe he was a Prophet; or Abraham; only 3 believed Abraham was a Prophet out of 5 cities, the greatest in the Near East…Those who were drowned in the Red Sea did not believe Moses was a Prophet. ” (September 9, 1932 Letter to Kelly) “Your letter to Ollie will do more to convince her that I am The Prophet than anything else could do…When did the Scribes and Pharisees of any age know The Prophet of their day?” (December 20, 1929 Letter to Cummings) "Nothing give me greater joy today than to know that Jesus is on His Throne and I as His Angel, Servant and Prophet in Jerusamem to end all the abominations on the earth and give honest people, good or bad, a chance to hear my witness, follow my leadership and obey my commands and so have right to the Tree of Life..." (May 5, 1928 Letter to Edward Cooney) "For if we let him come into us by His Spirit, we will soon find out that the Spirit will give us words, understanding and wisdom. This is the only way we can be sure I am the Prophet." (October 18, 1931 Letter to Warren Hooper) Source: Chapter 28 of my WmI book - links to letters quotes are taken from are here.
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Post by Mary on Oct 24, 2014 0:34:13 GMT -5
I understood he was preaching unusual doctrine and behaving strangely while a worker before he left.
Climbing out the window after preaching, relationships with women and the workers encouraging him to go to Jerusalem and wait for the Lord's return because of what he was saying.
He said the time of preaching had come to an end. I don't know if he said this while still a worker or after.
A person does not suddenly become deluded, he was deluded from the beginning.
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Post by snow on Oct 24, 2014 11:37:50 GMT -5
William Irvine was nutters from the beginning according to what I've read here. The whole religion was started by someone that thought he was the next Messiah. It makes sense there are so many controlling mechanisms in place within the group. Makes me angry that my parents wasted their whole lives in a lie! Maybe they would have just found another lie to live, I guess that's possible. Dad was rather a 'fanatic personality type'. Mom, not so much. She was the most unhappy woman I've ever known. Makes me sad when I think of it.
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Post by faune on Oct 24, 2014 15:24:27 GMT -5
I understood he was preaching unusual doctrine and behaving strangely while a worker before he left. Climbing out the window after preaching, relationships with women and the workers encouraging him to go to Jerusalem and wait for the Lord's return because of what he was saying. He said the time of preaching had come to an end. I don't know if he said this while still a worker or after. A person does not suddenly become deluded, he was deluded from the beginning. Mary ~ I agree! Delusions of grandeur had set in way before he left the 2x2's as a result of ex-communication. It appears he just got crazier as time went along and started saying things really off the wall. Honestly, I don't think Harold Camping in our own day and time came up with such weird ideas as William Irvine? He also had a quite a following in which people in his end-times predictions. It just makes you wonder how gullible people can be to take these religious leaders serious and hang on their every word?
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Post by snow on Oct 24, 2014 16:10:46 GMT -5
William Irvine was nutters from the beginning according to what I've read here. The whole religion was started by someone that thought he was the next Messiah. It makes sense there are so many controlling mechanisms in place within the group. Makes me angry that my parents wasted their whole lives in a lie! Maybe they would have just found another lie to live, I guess that's possible. Dad was rather a 'fanatic personality type'. Mom, not so much. She was the most unhappy woman I've ever known. Makes me sad when I think of it. John Long, and many workers who knew WI in the beginning had a great admiration and respect for his love on the things of Jesus truth and way by their testimonies and writings. They wanted to welcome WI back to the fold with open arms IF he repented from his immorality sins. Now, you and I can read and see the whole picture of William Irvine good, bad, and ugly sides and they didn't see or know too much of the human side of him.I agree, no one can know the whole story. They are all dead. One thing for sure was it started with them and my parents thought it went back to the shores of Galilee and that was deceitful. I have looked into your claim it came down through the ages, but have found out there is no way they were similar to those you say they came from. So lets not go there again please.
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Post by snow on Oct 24, 2014 17:08:42 GMT -5
You can scratch Waldensian for sure. They believed in transubstantiation and infant baptism. There is quite a few years between Wesley and the death of Jesus where there is no direct lineage.
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Post by Mary on Oct 24, 2014 17:36:02 GMT -5
The Waldensians broke /rebelled from the Catholic church, that is where the infant baptism came in. The Waldensians started around 1150 I think it was without looking it up.
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Post by snow on Oct 24, 2014 18:44:46 GMT -5
You can scratch Waldensian for sure. They believed in transubstantiation and infant baptism. There is quite a few years between Wesley and the death of Jesus where there is no direct lineage. The Waldensians believe in the partaken the bread and Wine in Remmeberance of Jesus life, death, and resurrection.... NOT the Catholic version of Transubstantiation= The bread is the actual flesh of Jesus and the Wine is his REAL blood.
Some of them/Vaudois believe in infant baptism but NOT the majority.
God protected and preserved them as the apples of His eyes. They can't be destroyed.... they have survived under different names.... Read Revelation chapters 11 and 12.
Not according to what I have found. In a statement of faith submitted to the bishop of Albano, Peter Waldo affirmed his belief in transubstantiation, prayers for the dead, and infant baptism. [13] The famed Baptist historian A.H. Newman drew the only conclusion warranted by the evidence.
"Waldo and his early followers had more in common with...Roman Catholicism than with any evangelical party. His views of life and doctrine were scarcely in advance of many earnest Catholics of the time." [14]Also, Peter Waldo confirmed that he was the founder of the Waldensians many times. Only those who want to claim some kind of an unbroken line to Jesus try to say he didn't. It is well known he started them. Also, they don't go back to Paul but were started in 1216. It's not just the 2x2's that try to make this claim Nathan. There were many others that have tried to say their religion comes from the Waldensians too.
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Post by Mary on Oct 24, 2014 19:32:24 GMT -5
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WaldensiansThe Waldensians (also known variously as Waldenses, Vallenses, Valdesi or Vaudois) are a Protestant Christian movement and religious cultural group which started in Lyon and spread soon to the Cottian Alps in the late 1170s. Today, the Waldensian movement is centered on southern France and the Piedmont region of northern Italy, while small communities can also be found in southern Italy, Argentina, Germany, the United States, and Uruguay. The movement originated in the late twelfth century as the Poor Men of Lyons, a band organized by Peter Waldo, a wealthy merchant who gave away his property around 1177, preaching apostolic poverty as the way to perfection. As they developed Waldensian teachings came into conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. By 1215, the Waldensians were declared heretical and subject to intense persecution; the group endured near annihilation in the seventeenth century, and were then confronted with organized and generalized discrimination in the centuries that followed. During the 16th century, Waldensian leaders embraced the Protestant Reformation; the movement adopted many of the Calvinist tenets and became a Protestant denomination. As early as 1631, Protestant scholars began to regard the Waldensians as early forerunners of the Reformation. Modern Waldensians share core tenets with other Reformed Protestants, namely the priesthood of all believers, congregational polity, and a "low" view of the sacraments (Lord's Supper and Baptism). Currently, active congregations remain in Europe, South America, and North America, most under the label of the Waldensian Evangelical Church. Organizations such as the American Waldensian Society exist to maintain the history of this movement, with the declared goals of "proclaiming the Christian Gospel, serving the marginalized, promoting social justice, fostering inter-religious work, and advocating respect for religious diversity and freedom of conscience."[1] Waldo did not join the Waldensians Nathan, he started them.
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Post by Mary on Oct 24, 2014 19:37:45 GMT -5
Or Encyclopaedia Britannica www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/634415/WaldensesWaldenses also spelled Valdenses, French Vaudois, Italian Valdesi, members of a Christian movement that originated in 12th-century France, the devotees of which sought to follow Christ in poverty and simplicity. In modern times the name has been applied to members of a Protestant church (centred on the Franco-Italian border) that formed when remnants of the earlier movement became Swiss Protestant Reformers.
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Post by Mary on Oct 24, 2014 19:43:30 GMT -5
And from the Waldensian Churches own website. www.waldensian.org/3-history/History Founded in the Middle Ages The Waldensian Church originated with the preaching of the merchant Valdo (Waldo of Lyons, from whom the church’s name originates), 1140-1217. He lived during the same period as Saint Francis of Assisi (1181 or 1182–1226). Like Francis, Waldo also believed in the value of the evangelical poverty of the early church and, after a profound spiritual crisis, gave all his assets to the poor in order to freely preach the gospel. The movement, known as “The Poor of Lyons” in France and “The Poor Lombards” in Italy, continued to spread throughout Europe. But in a short time it was accused of heresy and thereafter participants were repressed and persecuted by the civil and religious authorities. Despite very difficult times and the violence of the Inquisition of the Catholic Church, the movement continued to evangelize and succeeded in establishing an important community in the western Alps of the Piedmont, the South of France, Germany, and even in southern Italy (in Calabria). Their itinerant preachers were called “Barba” (a dialectical word for “uncle”, meaning a distinguished person), from which derived “Barbetti” (followers of the Barba), a popular name used until recent times in Piedmont to indicate Waldensians. The Reformation The Waldensian movement joined the newly initiated European Reformation in 1532. Local preachers led their worship services and celebrated the sacraments. From that time, the church became Protestant in the Presbyterian and Calvinist tradition. But the persecution was not over. Particularly tragic were the massacres of 1655, known as the “Piedmont Easter”, which raised indignant protests in Europe and caused Cromwell’s England to take action. The celebrated poet John Milton wrote of it in his ode, “On the Late Massacre in Piedmont”. Persecution began anew in 1685. The few Waldensian survivors in Piedmont remained committed to their faith but had to take shelter in Switzerland. Only four years later, in 1689, they were able to re-enter their valleys. It was for them, the “Glorious Return”: a community of people composed also of women, the elderly and children, which crossed the Alps, driven not only by the tie to their own land, but also by their vocation of freedom to witness to their Protestant faith.
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Post by Mary on Oct 24, 2014 19:52:56 GMT -5
This is the guy whose works you have chosen to quote: www.economicexpert.com/a/Pierre:Allix.htmlThe works of Allix, which are numerous, are chiefly of a controversial and apologetic character, and must be used with caution. In opposition to French Catholic bishop Jacques-Benigne Bossuet he published Some Remarks upon the Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont (1690), and Remarks upon the Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of the Albigenses (1692), with the idea of showing that the Albigensians were not Manichaeans, but historically identical with the Waldenses. This opinion is not held by modern scholars, who are certain that the Albigensians were not orthodox Christians, whether or not they were Manichaeans.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 24, 2014 20:01:34 GMT -5
You can scratch Waldensian for sure. They believed in transubstantiation and infant baptism. There is quite a few years between Wesley and the death of Jesus where there is no direct lineage. Just to clarify, snow, the succession which I described in the post that Nathan quoted is not a lineage. Rather, it's a succession of ideas, placing more emphasis on 'works' and transformation; something called the Holiness doctrine. The Waldensians of 1000 years ago do share more than a passing resemblance to the friends, but again, it's not a lineage. IMO, various attempts throughout history to restore the church according to New Testament teaching end up in a similar place. The Waldensians were very keen on helping the poor, for example. They were quite tolerated within the Catholic church until they started to disagree with church policies, and then they began to be persecuted. At some point the Waldensian morphed into just another Protestant church, same as all the rest.
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Post by snow on Oct 24, 2014 20:17:34 GMT -5
You can scratch Waldensian for sure. They believed in transubstantiation and infant baptism. There is quite a few years between Wesley and the death of Jesus where there is no direct lineage. Just to clarify, snow, the succession which I described in the post that Nathan quoted is not a lineage. Rather, it's a succession of ideas, placing more emphasis on 'works' and transformation; something called the Holiness doctrine. The Waldensians of 1000 years ago do share more than a passing resemblance to the friends, but again, it's not a lineage. IMO, various attempts throughout history to restore the church according to New Testament teaching end up in a similar place. The Waldensians were very keen on helping the poor, for example. They were quite tolerated within the Catholic church until they started to disagree with church policies, and then they began to be persecuted. At some point the Waldensian morphed into just another Protestant church, same as all the rest. Yes, and from my studies of them, they did have some things in common as you mentioned. However, they were more Catholic in their beliefs about important stuff like infant baptism and transubstantiation which are both definitely not 2x2 beliefs. Even the Cathars had some things in common with the 2x2's, but again a lot of what they believed was very much at odds with 2x2 beliefs. I'm sure many different sects down through the ages had some similar beliefs. I don't think Irvine reinvented the wheel. He seemed to approach it like a brunch, taking a bit of this and a bit of that and put it together to form a new church.
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Post by Mary on Oct 24, 2014 21:14:58 GMT -5
The Waldensians as you said were keen on helping the poor. This was one of their key points whereas the 2x2s do not help the poor. Going out poor and without money is another thing. Their money is used only to help the workers, build convention grounds, fund their travels and own activities.
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