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Post by bubbles on Oct 15, 2014 1:36:43 GMT -5
Oh comeon. Ive seen Phil speak. Next you will be telling me hes a robot. Nope, he was a real person. What he claimed has been looked at by many people and shown to be false. If you wish to believe what he says, feel free. Yes. Dont forget he was a whistleblower. You know how they get treated.
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Post by rational on Oct 15, 2014 2:09:24 GMT -5
Nope, he was a real person. What he claimed has been looked at by many people and shown to be false. If you wish to believe what he says, feel free. Yes. Dont forget he was a whistleblower. You know how they get treated. No, he was a fraud.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 15, 2014 2:09:49 GMT -5
Walker, one thing that interests me is that in these fields there is seldom a gospel meeting that is not in a town where there are already church members. Why is that? Talk about preaching to the converted. The other interesting thing I found and I may be wrong here and please correct me but in places like Africa and India the workers mainly hit on Christians of other denominations. Not a lot of Animists, Muslims, Hindus, Bhudists are invited to the meetings or indeed profess. Why is that? Pardon me for the questions. where did you hear they were not being invited? have you been in a foreign field before? or are you just guessing? What a Wally, for your information I have had four close relatives work in third world countries as preachers for the 2x2's. One did over 40 years, two did over 50 years. One died in the field and is buried there. One went mad and was retired. Two retired because of age to their home country where one of them died. One still alive but only just. I have sat and listened to many of their stories. Any more questions?
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Post by fixit on Oct 15, 2014 2:35:41 GMT -5
The other interesting thing I found and I may be wrong here and please correct me but in places like Africa and India the workers mainly hit on Christians of other denominations. Not a lot of Animists, Muslims, Hindus, Bhudists are invited to the meetings or indeed profess. Why is that? Muslims are largely out of bounds due to apostasy laws.
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Post by rational on Oct 15, 2014 9:47:20 GMT -5
The other interesting thing I found and I may be wrong here and please correct me but in places like Africa and India the workers mainly hit on Christians of other denominations. Not a lot of Animists, Muslims, Hindus, Bhudists are invited to the meetings or indeed profess. Why is that? Muslims are largely out of bounds due to apostasy laws. Apostasy/anti-blasphemy laws do not just apply to Muslims. Over half the population in the world lives under them.
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Post by Tim Jones 'kyblue' on Oct 15, 2014 16:28:05 GMT -5
The original subject on this thread was "Fewer workers, friends, mtg.s, conventions & larger fields." I would like to get back to that. Walker Wrote: Fewer young people seem to be offering for "the work". The turnover continues. Smaller families and more youth drifting away around age 20. Meeting consolidations. Conventions closed in Paris TN and Vanderbilt MI. Other conventions reduced to 3 days. The only growth of the Kingdom in the eastern US is the size of the fields. I know fields that border several states. Workers spend more and more time in a car traveling from one end of their field to another. Yet most friends and workers downplay the smaller numbers. They say "God's way isn't popular" or "it goes against human reasoning and only a few get the revelation". Some see the declining numbers as proof that we are nearer to the end of times. When you get down to it, most folks on the convention grounds have family in Truth. The Vanderbilt convention is still active and is very much alive. The owners are aged people and are looking for a buyer but convention did occur there this year and likely will until a new buyer is found. There is a current debate about McCordsville and Shoals IN. Not sure if both will survive but for sure there will likely be one continuing for quite some time. CB, as I get time, I keep updating my spreadsheet. I get some done and I look at the data. From 776 active workers in the US in 1987, to 560 in 2010 and the data points I have in between, it was a fairly linear loss of about 9 workers per year. Now, I wish I had more current lists (hint) so I could account for what's happened since 2010. If more workers are leaving, why didn't overseers even attempt to do anything about it? I've seen that a lot of workers in the US are the hands-off types. So, fewer workers result in fewer converts, and that repeats itself. Then, smaller families and fewer children remaining in the religion, and that repeats itself as well. I would still agree that the balance of workers to professing is about 2 for ~100 in a field (maybe more out west). As those fields keep growing, yeah, they spend an inordinate amount of time running from funeral to funeral. And that keeps them from having more gospel meetings. Which prevents them from bringing more people in, and leads to breakdowns and burnouts. It's a vicious cycle and it won't change unless overseers relent and divvy up job duties a little differently - assigning more to elders/bishops. It will probably happen, but at this stage it is too little too late. Nothing will right this ship at this stage. So, by my data, if 9 workers leave per year, ~2066 would be the end of the religion in the US. It'll die out in the East and work west. But, as more leave, it's just going to accelerate the end date. It's not a matter of one specific thing that caused the fallout. It's many - history, doctrine, CSA, now perhaps futility, and the list goes on.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 18, 2014 23:50:38 GMT -5
The original subject on this thread was "Fewer workers, friends, mtg.s, conventions & larger fields." I would like to get back to that. Walker Wrote: Fewer young people seem to be offering for "the work". The turnover continues. Smaller families and more youth drifting away around age 20. Meeting consolidations. Conventions closed in Paris TN and Vanderbilt MI. Other conventions reduced to 3 days. The only growth of the Kingdom in the eastern US is the size of the fields. I know fields that border several states. Workers spend more and more time in a car traveling from one end of their field to another. Yet most friends and workers downplay the smaller numbers. They say "God's way isn't popular" or "it goes against human reasoning and only a few get the revelation". Some see the declining numbers as proof that we are nearer to the end of times. When you get down to it, most folks on the convention grounds have family in Truth. The Vanderbilt convention is still active and is very much alive. The owners are aged people and are looking for a buyer but convention did occur there this year and likely will until a new buyer is found. There is a current debate about McCordsville and Shoals IN. Not sure if both will survive but for sure there will likely be one continuing for quite some time. I dont remember messages encouraging people to follow the call. Lets remember any denomination or most christian ones I think are part of the kingdom of god. Local churches usually do teaching on the subject of giftings and callings. Its part of discipling the people to challenge them and nurture them. If this isnt happening Im not surprised if there are not many offers. People need support they need building up in their holy faith. Training. Inspiring. Its not about having a crutch but being part of the family of god. Helping loving caring for one another. The purposes of god are about the extention of the kingdom of god.
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Post by fixit on Oct 19, 2014 0:23:20 GMT -5
My hypothesis is that the leadership of the 2x2 group are caught in a classic Catch 22 situation. Some of them know that changes need to be made but a key change is to drop exclusivity. Doing this would set the church up better for the future. However, a change in exclusivity status would result in a major departure. Organisational studies indicate that it is usually better to make painful changes earlier rather than later to survive, even if it means losses in the short term. I don't think that major change will occur for a range of factors and as a result it is likely that gradual accelerated decline will occur. It could be like the following 1897/1900 - 1975 - 75 years of growth to peak of numbers - say 150,000 worldwide 1975 - 2050 - Gradual decline - to say 50,000 worldwide 2050 - 2125 - Accelerated decline to extinction Interested in your thoughts - you've obviously done a fair amount of analysis... Its interesting that the fastest rate of growth was before the church became exclusive. I'm not convinced that exclusivity is necessary.
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Post by fred on Oct 19, 2014 21:43:25 GMT -5
I'm probably nearly 20 tears older than you Ross, and the term was regularly used in our household - that would have been the 50's and early 60's. It's a bit hard to generalise with teaching/doctrine as it is, and has been, all over the shop.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 19, 2014 22:27:12 GMT -5
The original subject on this thread was "Fewer workers, friends, mtg.s, conventions & larger fields." I would like to get back to that. Walker Wrote: Fewer young people seem to be offering for "the work". The turnover continues. Smaller families and more youth drifting away around age 20. Meeting consolidations. Conventions closed in Paris TN and Vanderbilt MI. Other conventions reduced to 3 days. The only growth of the Kingdom in the eastern US is the size of the fields. I know fields that border several states. Workers spend more and more time in a car traveling from one end of their field to another. Yet most friends and workers downplay the smaller numbers. They say "God's way isn't popular" or "it goes against human reasoning and only a few get the revelation". Some see the declining numbers as proof that we are nearer to the end of times. When you get down to it, most folks on the convention grounds have family in Truth. The Vanderbilt convention is still active and is very much alive. The owners are aged people and are looking for a buyer but convention did occur there this year and likely will until a new buyer is found. There is a current debate about McCordsville and Shoals IN. Not sure if both will survive but for sure there will likely be one continuing for quite some time. I dont remember messages encouraging people to follow the call. Bubbles, Do you mean that when you were a member of what we called the TRUTH or the WAY that you didn't hear messages encouraging young people to follow the call to go into the WORK?
We used to hear it all the time when I was growing up.
A highly emotional call because the "harvest fields were ripe," "souls were being lost" etc.etc.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 20, 2014 0:27:41 GMT -5
Its interesting that the fastest rate of growth was before the church became exclusive.I'm not convinced that exclusivity is necessary. When did the church became exclusive?
I was every since I have known it. My grandparents on one side professed in the 1910's & my father's side in the 1920's
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Post by rational on Oct 20, 2014 1:01:44 GMT -5
Its interesting that the fastest rate of growth was before the church became exclusive. Given that the founder of christianity, Christ, declared that he was the exclusive way, at what point before that was the church not exclusive?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 20, 2014 1:24:25 GMT -5
Rational, it would be just a wee bit tricky for the Christian church to be exclusive before Christ walked this earth.
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Post by rational on Oct 20, 2014 1:35:44 GMT -5
Rational, it would be just a wee bit tricky for the Christian church to be exclusive before Christ walked this earth. That is why I asked the question. I was stumped.
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 1:44:51 GMT -5
Its interesting that the fastest rate of growth was before the church became exclusive. Given that the founder of christianity, Christ, declared that he was the exclusive way, at what point before that was the church not exclusive? Which church? Are you referring to Jesus as the way, or a church organization as the way?
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Post by bubbles on Oct 20, 2014 2:05:11 GMT -5
I dont remember messages encouraging people to follow the call. Bubbles, Do you mean that when you were a member of what we called the TRUTH or the WAY that you didn't hear messages encouraging young people to follow the call to go into the WORK?
We used to hear it all the time when I was growing up.
A highly emotional call because the "harvest fields were ripe," "souls were being lost" etc.etc.
No not very often. Once or twice. I do remember thinking as a young teen how wonderful it would be to preach Jesus but I was too boisterous too flirty and didnt think I was good enough. Also intimidated easily then.
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Post by rational on Oct 20, 2014 8:31:31 GMT -5
Given that the founder of christianity, Christ, declared that he was the exclusive way, at what point before that was the church not exclusive? Which church? Are you referring to Jesus as the way, or a church organization as the way? Christianity. Who was the founder of Christianity?
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Post by Tim Jones 'kyblue' on Oct 20, 2014 9:48:47 GMT -5
Ross, I have done a bit of legwork trying to assemble something for US workers where I can do analysis. It's been interesting to get things assembled - and more lists roll in periodically. When I have time, I hope to catch up and release perhaps version 1 of the spreadsheet.
For overseers to make doctrinal changes or history changes would probably result in a mass exodus. I think how my folks might react to learn something they've believed in all their lives was a farce. Their message would have to change subtly and over time. But, to do that requires several decades which is still more loss of F&Ws. Add to that those that would disagree with the new message. Workers painted themselves into a corner in such a way that even doing nothing still results in the loss of members. They lose either way. They can only explain away their losses for so long. When you look at Christianity as a whole, you may see some loss, but how does it compare to the loss of the 2x2s? Certainly mainstream Christianity is not going to die out when it is the most popular religious belief across the world (according to Wikipedia).
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Post by rational on Oct 20, 2014 17:27:21 GMT -5
Given that the founder of christianity, Christ, declared that he was the exclusive way, at what point before that was the church not exclusive? The reference was to the 2x2 church. I'm sure if we asked Christ whether His church (ie body of believers) was exclusive He would simply say that there is no limit on the number of people that can enter God's Kingdom - never has been and never will be. Probably. And then would add that unless they were believers in him that they would be excluded. Like other organizations, Jesus included everyone who accepted his rules and excluded everyone else. But we digress - I see that the vague 'church' was a reference to the organization of the F&W. But is it a surprise that a denomination within an exclusive religion would tend to be exclusive as well?
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 20, 2014 22:28:04 GMT -5
Given that the founder of christianity, Christ, declared that he was the exclusive way, at what point before that was the church not exclusive? The reference was to the 2x2 church. I'm sure if we asked Christ whether His church (ie body of believers) was exclusive He would simply say that there is no limit on the number of people that can enter God's Kingdom - never has been and never will be. Man (ie the workers and some others), by his own authority has chosen to place boundaries and limits on God's grace and where it can reach. The wonderful thing about God's grace is that it has no boundaries and no limits - Christ died for all. Men who place limits on it do so generally because of the pride that is in their own hearts - nothing to do with Christ. Jesus is inclusive, not exclusive. "There are no boundaries and no limits " -ONLY if you are a "Christian." ONLY if you believe that Jesus died for your "sins" and only if you believe in his resurrection from death and only if you believe he ascended bodily into the sky afterwards ! If Jesus was in-clusive, not ex-clusive, just what did Jesus mean when he said:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 21, 2014 1:05:30 GMT -5
"There are no boundaries and no limits " -ONLY if you are a "Christian." ONLY if you believe that Jesus died for your "sins" and only if you believe in his resurrection from death and only if you believe he ascended bodily into the sky afterwards ! If Jesus was in-clusive, not ex-clusive, just what did Jesus mean when he said:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
I completely understand where you are coming from. I was just making the point that from God's (Christ's) viewpoint and teaching, everyone can be part of His Kingdom. He is not excluding anyone. He died and rose again for all. Obviously there are many who don't believe in Him or don't accept that he is God for a variety of reasons. I guess I don't see it that Christ is excluding those folk - haven't they made a choice about that position and they are comfortable with it? NO! Thousands of people didn't have then, nor don't yet have, -any choice in the matter of taking a position simply because they didn't know about Jesus !
Then there those of us who simply can't allow our the capacity for knowledge, our capacity for rational and intelligent thought to be compromised by irrational ideas of physical resurrection of the dead and physical ascension into the atmosphere without any physical assistance.
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Post by rational on Oct 21, 2014 10:14:05 GMT -5
I completely understand where you are coming from. I was just making the point that from God's (Christ's) viewpoint and teaching, everyone can be part of His Kingdom. He is not excluding anyone. He died and rose again for all. Obviously there are many who don't believe in Him or don't accept that he is God for a variety of reasons. I guess I don't see it that Christ is excluding those folk - haven't they made a choice about that position and they are comfortable with it? Do you think belief is a choice? Could you believe Satan was someone to be worshiped? Could you choose to believe in something that you knew was false? So when the salvation of a person depends on what they believe, some are excluded since belief is not the same as wearing a school necktie.
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