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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 7:43:37 GMT -5
Fewer young people seem to be offering for "the work". The turnover continues. Smaller families and more youth drifting away around age 20. Meeting consolidations. Conventions closed in Paris TN and Vanderbilt MI. Other conventions reduced to 3 days. The only growth of the Kingdom in the eastern US is the size of the fields. I know fields that border several states. Workers spend more and more time in a car traveling from one end of their field to another. Yet most friends and workers downplay the smaller numbers. They say "God's way isn't popular" or "it goes against human reasoning and only a few get the revelation". Some see the declining numbers as proof that we are nearer to the end of times. When you get down to it, most folks on the convention grounds have family in Truth.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 7:45:36 GMT -5
Here is my list of endangered convention grounds: Mt. Sterling IL Shoals IN Cassatt SC or Metter GA Rogers AR
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 10:21:26 GMT -5
to my understanding delcine is happening all over all christian communities...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 11:13:10 GMT -5
to my understanding delcine is happening all over all christian communities... Yes that is true, but Some religions are doing much better than others. A fairly recent Report states that the Jehovah's Witness is the fasting growing religion in the world followed by the Pentcostal churches in America , many others are in decline.
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Post by mdm on Oct 7, 2014 13:35:16 GMT -5
Fewer young people seem to be offering for "the work". The turnover continues. Smaller families and more youth drifting away around age 20. Meeting consolidations. Conventions closed in Paris TN and Vanderbilt MI. Other conventions reduced to 3 days. The only growth of the Kingdom in the eastern US is the size of the fields. I know fields that border several states. Workers spend more and more time in a car traveling from one end of their field to another. Yet most friends and workers downplay the smaller numbers. They say "God's way isn't popular" or "it goes against human reasoning and only a few get the revelation". Some see the declining numbers as proof that we are nearer to the end of times. When you get down to it, most folks on the convention grounds have family in Truth. Some friends have told us that the official word is that in some areas in the US the number of workers has dropped by 50% from 10-15 years ago. In the Eastern US, since January of this year 9 brother workers have left the work. I've been told that such a high number is unusual. I don't know how the number of friends compares to the number of workers, but reportedly, there are fewer workers per number of friends than in the past. Is it the sedentary and unnatural life in the work that causes people to leave it? I often felt sorry for young brother workers because I perceived that they were bored and oppressed because of the type of life they lead. The old worker we knew used to tell us fondly about the days when he helped friends with their farm work. Dan Sherick, when he labored in my country, attended university. Now, in Ukraine, he works on a university staff. This has been seen as controversial by other workers, but his work has apparently lead to many hearing and accepting the Gospel. I've been told by a Mexican friend that workers in Mexico sometimes work - it's not against the rules like it is in the US. We know that Paul worked as a tent maker. Life in the ministry doesn't have to be just going from house to house or convention to convention... Is it having to submit to hierarchy and rulings that go against their conscience? Graham Thompson apparently left for that reason. Steve Shulz lost his place in the ministry because of expressing disapproval of how CSA issues are treated by overseers. I know a man here in the US who several decades ago was driven out of the work because he was preaching that "friends by their lives are proclaiming the Gospel." (The politically correct view was that the Gospel is proclaimed by the workers in Gospel meetings.) Or his friend who left the work when he saw how unjustly this man was treated. Or two brother workers in Europe who left because of unfair rulings of overseers. Or, another worker in Europe who has "suffered consequences for speaking the truth" and is "afraid every day" that he will be removed from his place in the work because of his views, even though he expresses them "only when asked to." We have friends who have told us they didn't want their kids to offer for the work, because they were disgusted with what was going on in the work (Western US). Is it because of enforced celibacy? The old NZ worker I often mention would also fondly talk about his first days in the work, his first companions being a married couple ( docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnwyeDJoaXN0b3J5fGd4OjYwNjliYzYyNWI0M2Q2ZjA). If today enforced celibacy is the cause for moral failure or for good people not going into or leaving the ministry, shouldn't it be reconsidered? If the reason for enforced celibacy is that non-celibate itinerant ministry doesn't work in today's society, shouldn't enforced itinerant ministry be reconsidered? Shouldn't the main goal be "that Christ is preached?" Or is it more important to uphold itinerant ministry at all costs? Is it because of the low morale and discouragement caused by tolerance of the immoral in the ministry? A year ago, a young worker spoke at a local convention about his grief at finding out about the sin of a brother (another brother worker). How long can such a sincere person remain in an environment where immorality is excused as a 'minor' failing? I've heard of a US sister worker who left the work after "the 3rd" brother worker approached her in an inappropriate way. Or, we have the sister worker who left the work because of sexual assault that could have been prevented had the offender been removed from the work after the first reported offense. I've heard from ex and current SWs that there are BWs who are known for inappropriate behavior. When in 2008 we talked to a local sister worker (only in her 30s) about IH, she said that "Ira had a lot of sexual energy." I was too shocked to ask her to explain. How else can it be explained but that IH had shown inappropriate behavior even in his old age, but that sister workers are accustomed to such behavior and tolerate it? And even when they do complain, it doesn't warrant removal from the work of the offender. For example, there is the case of 2 sister workers telling their overseer that they will not attend convention if certain BW comes. The overseer respected their concern and did not invite the BW to that convention, but the BW still remained in the work. Why is there tolerance of the immoral in the ministry and how is it worth the price?
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Post by fixit on Oct 7, 2014 15:15:19 GMT -5
Why is there tolerance of the immoral in the ministry and how is it worth the price? It's only worth the price when the status quo is valued above everything else.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 7, 2014 15:53:52 GMT -5
Yes that is true, but Some religions are doing much better than others. A fairly recent Report states that the Jehovah's Witness is the fasting growing religion in the world followed by the Pentcostal churches in America , many others are in decline. One of the reasons the JW is the fasting growing religion because ALL of them are Witnessing for Jesus. They go door to door sharing the message of Yahweh. I wish the friends and the workers could encourage each other in this department by reaching out to people in their community, doing some volunteer work, get out and get in touch with people, having Bible studies on the College campus, High School, in the parks, going door to door, highway and byways, etc.
As Jesus has commanded in the Great Commission, Matt 28 " Go ye therefore and TEACH all nations... Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always unto the end of the world. The JW has ben having Bible studies with my parents every week for 4 yrs now. They want to meet me because they had heard a lot about me through my parents. I have given them my Valiant Thor page so when we meet we have something to discuss.One of the pastors in my past frequently preached we should be out there bringing people to christ. It annoyed me because my life was busy enough raising 4 kids as well as all the work I did in the ministry. Eg: church twice on sunday prayer meeting monday, 5am prayer meeting, wed home group, always late midnight, thurs ladys meeting. Fri/ sat free for family entertainment.
I took it as a critisim when tired.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 7, 2014 15:57:15 GMT -5
One of the reasons the JW is the fasting growing religion because ALL of them are Witnessing for Jesus. They go door to door sharing the message of Yahweh. I wish the friends and the workers could encourage each other in this department by reaching out to people in their community, doing some volunteer work, get out and get in touch with people, having Bible studies on the College campus, High School, in the parks, going door to door, highway and byways, etc.
As Jesus has commanded in the Great Commission, Matt 28 " Go ye therefore and TEACH all nations... Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always unto the end of the world. The JW has ben having Bible studies with my parents every week for 4 yrs now. They want to meet me because they had heard a lot about me through my parents. I have given them my Valiant Thor page so when we meet we have something to discuss. One of the pastors in my past frequently preached we should be out there bringing people to christ and into church. The only person succcessful was the female evangelist. It annoyed me because my life was busy enough raising 4 kids as well as all the work I did in the ministry. Eg: church twice on sunday prayer meeting monday, Tues 5am prayer meeting, wed home group, always late midnight, thurs ladys meeting. Fri/ sat free for family entertainment.
I took it as a critisim when tired. Felt like telling him to do it himself
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Post by bubbles on Oct 7, 2014 16:38:01 GMT -5
Why is there tolerance of the immoral in the ministry and how is it worth the price? It's only worth the price when the status quo is valued above everything else. If workers are leaving I dont blame them. If radical changes are not implimented I think the decline will increase.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 7:53:06 GMT -5
In order for young men and women to offer for the 2x2 ministry, and for the ministry to prosper, the overseers around the world, must eliminate CSA workers, and Immorality from the work. They must put CSA workers and immorality workers OUT of the work. Just like the early workers did with William Irvine for his immorality while he was in the work. The work has to be a safe place for those who are called and chosen to be in the work. Who are supposed to be guarding the guardians of morality? I doubt very much that any company would consciously hire a crooked guard and place him/her in charge of security. There must be complete trust in the guardians of morality. Christianity has a lot to do with moral living.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 10:54:22 GMT -5
Well, I am a firm believer that Jesus is the same today, yesterday and for ever, but it appears to me that some of His followers have so seriously deviated that they have now lost their way.
It is like rambling/drifting. Reminds me of a hymn we have in the Hymn book - -- Out of Christ without a Savior is like a ship without a rudder on a wild and stormy sea.
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Post by faune on Oct 10, 2014 18:59:27 GMT -5
Oh my, what I would give to be a fly on the wall for that particular event! Nathan, you may find they never do make an appointment. I always welcomed them in and talked to them, but I started to notice that they would walk right by my house after a few 'talks'. Not sure what they would think of Valiant Thor but I'm sure it would be an interesting conversation! Yes, it would be very interesting when I see the Vietnamese JW. My father has my Valiant Thor page on his Ipad so my sister, and brother. We discussed about Valiant Thor for more than two hrs with most my family members in the living room. The Vietnamese JW wanted to meet for years now because of my father, who had told them I had been a minister of the gospel. I told my father to give the Vietnamese JW my Valiant Thor page and they are welcome to ask any questions when they see me.
My family and I are to discuss more on Valiant Thor on Dec, 24. Most of them are Catholics, I have one professing brother in the family. Minh professed at the same as I did on the island of Guam 1979. They haven't seen Valiant Thor page 4 yet! I think... Where Dr. Stranges talked about beings from other worlds, and his journey to Valiant Thor interior planet Venus. I have given hundreds, thousands of people I met asking them to visi my Valiant Thor page. I have almost 20,000 hits. The younger generation is more open minded to ET and we are NOT alone in the Universe, but with all of the Wars, Viruses, and the chaos in the world the last 15 yrs people are paying attention to what I share with them.Nathan ~ Considering the composition of Venus on its surface, I'm surprised that Dr. Frank Stranges ever returned to this earth and didn't become toast on the interior planet of Venus? The temperature alone would be enough to cook him alive and the water supply isn't exactly abundant either! Also, it's surface make-up is not exactly favorable to human habitation, which would make Dr. Frank Stranges' story appear fabricated with little truth connected to it. It's surface definitely doesn't present the lush paradise he spoke about in his writings, IMHO? However, I believe Rational shared similar information previously about the atmospheric conditions on Venus in one of his responses?
space-facts.com/venus/
www.space.com/44-venus-second-planet-from-the-sun-brightest-planet-in-solar-system.html
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Post by rational on Oct 12, 2014 0:20:01 GMT -5
Dr. Frank Stranges' story appear fabricated with little truth connected to it. It's surface definitely doesn't present the lush paradise he spoke about in his writings, IMHO? Truth is not something that Dr Stranges worries about.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 12, 2014 1:34:28 GMT -5
What got my attention was id seen Phil Schneider before he was killed. Photos of his father and Val thor. Which means we have a truth these 3 men exist.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2014 11:38:47 GMT -5
I believe that older workers feel like the Truth will last long enough for them. Younger ones will have to adapt as needed.
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Post by christiansburg on Oct 12, 2014 13:45:27 GMT -5
Fewer young people seem to be offering for "the work". The turnover continues. Smaller families and more youth drifting away around age 20. Meeting consolidations. Conventions closed in Paris TN and Vanderbilt MI. Other conventions reduced to 3 days. The only growth of the Kingdom in the eastern US is the size of the fields. I know fields that border several states. Workers spend more and more time in a car traveling from one end of their field to another. Yet most friends and workers downplay the smaller numbers. They say "God's way isn't popular" or "it goes against human reasoning and only a few get the revelation". Some see the declining numbers as proof that we are nearer to the end of times. When you get down to it, most folks on the convention grounds have family in Truth. Do you know just when Vanderbilt closed. The parents of a woman who meets with us owned the convention grounds there. She has said nothing about that. In fact the owners of those grounds was also in a meeting with us last year did not speak of that either. We are an East coast state. So I am wondering if that is true and if so it must have occurred within the last year. I would be glad to know. I have not spoken to our friend here but will if you can confirm this. Also would like to know why. Our relatives used to own the convention grounds at Shoals, IN until about 6 years ago. I believe the new owners do not actually lives on the grounds full time but it has still been used for convention; at least for the last 2-3 years under that status.
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Post by rational on Oct 12, 2014 14:16:51 GMT -5
What got my attention was id seen Phil Schneider before he was killed. Photos of his father and Val thor. Which means we have a truth these 3 men exist. I can show you photos and say they are Billy Budd. Or Jack Dawkins. It does not mean either Billy Budd or Jack Dawkins exist.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 12, 2014 22:11:44 GMT -5
What got my attention was id seen Phil Schneider before he was killed. Photos of his father and Val thor. Which means we have a truth these 3 men exist. I can show you photos and say they are Billy Budd. Or Jack Dawkins. It does not mean either Billy Budd or Jack Dawkins exist. Oh comeon. Ive seen Phil speak. Next you will be telling me hes a robot.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 13, 2014 2:17:57 GMT -5
Who are supposed to be guarding the guardians of morality? I doubt very much that any company would consciously hire a crooked guard and place him/her in charge of security. There must be complete trust in the guardians of morality. Christianity has a lot to do with moral living. I enjoy reading George Walker's letter to American Selective Service about the morality of the workers.~~ George Walker, 2x2 worker (1899) wrote to the American Selective service in 1942.We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of people in British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were members. They were deeply concerned about the spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a RETURN to the methods and purpose taught and carried out by Christ and His first disciples.
This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due times a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the gospel according to the teaching and example of Christ as given in the New Testament... i.e. "Two by Two" and without salary or making appeal for financial assistance, putting implicit trust in God and His promise that as they "sought first the kingdom of God" their natural needs of food and raiment's "would be added unto them." As a result of this step, many people expressed their desire to be in fellowship with such preachers and this led to regular gathering together of small assemblies in homes for worship and study of God's word. The reason for meeting in homes was primary because it is Scriptures, the Christians during the first centuries of the Christian ere met regularly for worship in the homes, which fact is also borne out and supported by church history.
Thus after serious consideration, the leaders were confident that in their efforts to follow the early Christians they should form church gatherings in homes; therefore NO church property or real estate has been acquired by purchased or otherwise, and for this reason incorporation and registration under denominational name has NOT been necessary. The meetings continue to the present in homes and are under the guidance of local Elders, Baptism by Immersion and the weekly observance of the Lord's Supper is taught and practiced. In the year 1903 ministers of this Christian body began their labors in the United States and in the year 1904 to Canada. In these and subsequent years through the preaching of the Gospel, assemblies were formed in homes as already described. In the 1906 the first annual conventions were held in North America, and from this beginning the number of Ministers in North America has grown to over 900 about equally divided between men and women; the assemblies for regular worship to over 3,000; and the annual convention over to 100.
Those who enter this ministry must first establish very definitely their religious character and have fulfilled the other qualifications consider necessary. They MUST be upright and of high principle having proven their ability to earn their living in an honorable and must have taken an active part in the Church meetings regularly attended. If and when are considered to have qualified, and are then appointed and assisted an experienced minister in an evangelistic work in ministering to assemblies of Christians. From the time of appointment, ministers devote their entire time and talents to the work of the ministry. If for sufficient reason anyone thus accepted later prove to be Unworthy or Unfit he can not continue in this ministry.Signed George Walker Was this presented in a court or spoken under oath. A lot of it is wishful thinking or a fudging of facts. Whatever it is, if it was presented today George would find himself blown off the witness stand and possibly facing a charge a perjury.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 13, 2014 2:27:04 GMT -5
Walker, one thing that interests me is that in these fields there is seldom a gospel meeting that is not in a town where there are already church members. Why is that? Talk about preaching to the converted. The other interesting thing I found and I may be wrong here and please correct me but in places like Africa and India the workers mainly hit on Christians of other denominations. Not a lot of Animists, Muslims, Hindus, Bhudists are invited to the meetings or indeed profess. Why is that? Pardon me for the questions.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 13, 2014 2:30:24 GMT -5
Was this presented in a court or spoken under oath. A lot of it is wishful thinking or a fudging of facts. Whatever it is, if it was presented today George would find himself blown off the witness stand and possibly facing a charge a perjury. It was written to American Selective Service in 1942 for workers, the friends to be refrain from bearing arms during WW II = C.O.
What do you mean by fudging of facts? and possible facing a charge a perjury?Just take the last paragraph as an example. "Upright and of good character." There is a good few pages on TMB which question the validity of that.
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Post by christiansburg on Oct 13, 2014 8:58:02 GMT -5
The original subject on this thread was "Fewer workers, friends, mtg.s, conventions & larger fields." I would like to get back to that.
Walker Wrote:
Fewer young people seem to be offering for "the work". The turnover continues. Smaller families and more youth drifting away around age 20. Meeting consolidations. Conventions closed in Paris TN and Vanderbilt MI. Other conventions reduced to 3 days. The only growth of the Kingdom in the eastern US is the size of the fields. I know fields that border several states. Workers spend more and more time in a car traveling from one end of their field to another. Yet most friends and workers downplay the smaller numbers. They say "God's way isn't popular" or "it goes against human reasoning and only a few get the revelation". Some see the declining numbers as proof that we are nearer to the end of times. When you get down to it, most folks on the convention grounds have family in Truth.
The Vanderbilt convention is still active and is very much alive. The owners are aged people and are looking for a buyer but convention did occur there this year and likely will until a new buyer is found. There is a current debate about McCordsville and Shoals IN. Not sure if both will survive but for sure there will likely be one continuing for quite some time.
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Post by Gene on Oct 13, 2014 18:06:02 GMT -5
I know of MANY upright and good character workers. There are some bad workers among us. They may be nice people and good character but they all preach that no one outside of their ministry/fellowship can be saved.
That's insulting to God so I am sure that God would look upon their character a little differently than we do. They need to repent of this and turn to the One who does the saving. That's a central tenet of Christianity, isn't it? I mean, that no one outside the ministry and fellowship of Christianity can be saved, generally speaking? I disagree with the 2x2 position on this as much as you do, but I view them as drawing only a somewhat smaller circle than does all of Christianity. I think the sooner we all move away from an "us" (in the circle of salvation) vs. "them" (outside the circle of salvation) point of view, the better off we will all be.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 14, 2014 0:15:13 GMT -5
Here is my list of endangered convention grounds: Mt. Sterling ILShoals IN Cassatt SC or Metter GA Rogers AR I wonder why that Mt. Sterling IL is on the endangered list?
That was my home convention ground all of my life. My earliest memories as a child are from there.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 14, 2014 2:21:10 GMT -5
That's a central tenet of Christianity, isn't it? I mean, that no one outside the ministry and fellowship of Christianity can be saved, generally speaking? I disagree with the 2x2 position on this as much as you do, but I view them as drawing only a somewhat smaller circle than does all of Christianity. I think the sooner we all move away from an "us" (in the circle of salvation) vs. "them" (outside the circle of salvation) point of view, the better off we will all be. I think the 2x2 faith draw a tiny circle comparatively. Christians generally would recognise all other Christians and their position on other folk who also believe in God (Jews, Islam) is that they also need Christ. The Christian faith is exclusive in that sense of the definition - it centres on Jesus so ultimately there is the question "what do folk do with Jesus?" However, in church I have never heard other religions bagged like you hear churches bagged in the 2x2 meetings. If a Christian is saved by the grace of God the last thing they should be doing is going around denigrating other faiths or denigrating those who have no faith. They should reach out to all people irrespective of race, religion, sexuality and demonstrate this grace to others. It doesn't mean they need to agree with everything but to reach out and help is at the core of what Jesus taught. The last thing we should be doing is putting others down or saying we are right - you are wrong. The Pharisees were well practised at that. I agree. Out there in the real world our behavour should be kind considerate positive helpful to any human being whether they are of religion or not. I dont think we should behave in an untouchable self righteous manner towards anybody. Loving ourselves and loving others needs to be my primary focus. I can find fault with anything and everything if I want to. Its not attractive though. Being real is more appealing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2014 14:43:58 GMT -5
Walker, one thing that interests me is that in these fields there is seldom a gospel meeting that is not in a town where there are already church members. Why is that? Talk about preaching to the converted. The other interesting thing I found and I may be wrong here and please correct me but in places like Africa and India the workers mainly hit on Christians of other denominations. Not a lot of Animists, Muslims, Hindus, Bhudists are invited to the meetings or indeed profess. Why is that? Pardon me for the questions. where did you hear they were not being invited? have you been in a foreign field before? or are you just guessing?
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Post by rational on Oct 14, 2014 17:09:10 GMT -5
I can show you photos and say they are Billy Budd. Or Jack Dawkins. It does not mean either Billy Budd or Jack Dawkins exist. Oh comeon. Ive seen Phil speak. Next you will be telling me hes a robot. Nope, he was a real person. What he claimed has been looked at by many people and shown to be false. If you wish to believe what he says, feel free.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Oct 14, 2014 23:26:42 GMT -5
where did you hear they were not being invited? have you been in a foreign field before? or are you just guessing? In most Muslims countries it's against the law of the land to convert a Muslim to Christianity. The workers in foreign lands contacts the Christians so they can know the Perfect way of Jesus because they have a good understanding of Jesus already. That was one of the reasons Jesus, Paul, Peter, Paul, Aqilla and Prisilla went to the temple court yard, and the synagogues teaching/preaching the perfect way of Jesus to god fearing people in these places.
The workers labored in Vietnam, Thailand, Laos, China.... there are no such law against converting Buddhists, ancestors worship, etc to become Christians. Most people are invited to the gospel meetings. I have heard some Muslims have become Christians by their own choices.So that's just stealing Christians from one denomination to another. Exclusivity rears its ugly head yet again Wally.
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