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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 15:05:58 GMT -5
Why is the ministry the right place for people with unresolved deep and fundamental problems? Perhaps your question is answered below...
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 15:24:54 GMT -5
Review005 and virgo, I find your insisting that we should not hold up the fellowship for examination, but only ourselves, indicative of lack of willingness to even consider or publicly admit that there may be issues that need improvement. It in fact sounds very familiar, and reminds me of something I find my self thinking about lately.
When we met 'our first worker,' one of the questions we asked him was: So what problems does YOUR church have? Of course, we were assuming that all churches have problems. He replied: "Our only problem is with the old man." Wow, we were impressed with his answer! How deep and insightful on one level, and how wonderful to have found a church with no 'church' problems! Several years later we professed, happy to be leaving behind the world of churches with 'church problems." The next 15 years, we would listen to our friends and family talk about their church problems, and after each conversation we would roll our eyes, and express thankfulness to be in the only church with no problems. Of course, we heard about certain 2x2 problems as well, but we never connected the dots and discerned the pattern unfolding before our eyes. For example, the same worker who claimed the church itself has no problems, but only individual members have problems with the old man, came to express his sadness over the direction the fellowship was taking. It was very different to what it was when he as a young man went into the work. Now the hierarchy was much stronger and more developed, and he sadly observed that "we are getting too organized for our own good." We heard how he couldn't trust certain overseers, and that there were times he had to make the choice to follow the leading of the Spirit in disobedience to certain regulations (convention rounds). From other people, we heard about problems in Greece, about the French scandal, and how the lady who spoke up was shunned because of workers' orders and had to move to another country in order to have fellowship. We heard from Scottish friends that they were not happy with not knowing the reason behind decisions that affected them which they perceived as coming from the overseer of England. We personally witnessed the ugliness of unjust and unfounded accusations against our dear professing friend in Serbia by an overseer. We personally witnessed the wierd politics as we tried to follow the 'protocol' of getting a permission for a worker to come for a brief visit. And, we heard about 'divisions' in Colorado, and similar issues, but nobody would tell us exactly what it was about. We heard heartbreaking stories of some who were forced out of the work.
However, when we discovered the dungeon full of CSA and immorality/abuse skeletons, we woke up and couldn't pretend any more that this was the only church with no problems. In fact, we realized this church had MORE problems than the church we so proudly and gleefully left. We realized that the reason why this church on the surface appears to have no problems is that people are not allowed to openly talk about them, and because many would even rather pretend there really are no problems.
Saying that the only or main problem is 'the old man' or 'myself' doesn't make this church any different from other churches, because, guess what? Their problems are also caused by 'the old man' and 'myself.' What makes this church different from other churches is that other churches are not afraid to admit they have problems, to examine them and look for solutions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 15:39:53 GMT -5
Review005, it has been my practice to fully self-identify for over 25 years at great personal cost. Are you interested in communicating with me here in public? If you are, when you fully self-identify, and quit any double standard expectations, then I am willing to communicate with you.
However, if I were a gambling man, I'd bet all I could you would not agree to this condition, in the near future, anyway. In fact, I suspect you consider me so far below you that you will simply dismiss this offer to communicate using one or more informal fallacies of logic as you use in response to others, when you do not ignore them.
Well? You likely know your intimidation techniques simply will not work with me, huh?
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 16:08:15 GMT -5
Maja we will be in agreement that sexual immorality is wrong. We will be in agreement that it is wrong for you or me or anyone.I do not condone it or excuse it in any shape or form. You have not provided me with anything from the teaching of Jesus Christ supporting your contention that if a worker has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again. You know as well as I do the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding repentance and forgiveness, there is no need for me to repeat them here. With due respect if your conviction is that if a worker has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again. Then I understand why our friends and workers there are unable to be in agreement with you. I have not provided anything from the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding what to do with a minister belonging to a celibate ministry who is known to have engaged in sexual immorality at least once because THERE WAS NO SUCH THING as a celibate ministry. Even epistle writers didn't address such issues because there was no celibate ministry. They did not address issues that were not relevant in their day, except to prophetically warn against them (1 Timothy 4:1-3). But I did provide Jesus' explanation that sin starts in the heart. What do you think about that? Or do you agree with the workers that sexual sin "can happen to anyone" and doesn't reflect the state of the heart and spirit? I sincerely doubt that you understand why any number of offenses would warrant removal from the work. Should I walk you through the steps required to get to the point of GETTING IN BED with a person who is NOT your spouse, while one is in a CELIBATE ministry, where one is supposed to always be accompanied by a COMPANION, and where there is a policy against visiting a single person of opposite sex in her home? Do you realize what it takes to get to that point and that it cannot "just happen"? Why it is not just a "fall into temptation?" You know, I fall into temptation every day. It's to eat too much chocolate or spend too much time on TMB. It's not to end up in bed with somebody else's husband. Because I guard my heart against any impure thought, because I am in a love relationship with my God. Why can't the workers do that? Now I answered your question what I think about 1st time offenses. If you want me to tell you what I think about umpteenth offenses, let me know. I can even provide you with some documented illustrations.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 16:26:10 GMT -5
CSA and sexual abuse/ molestation is a very serious criminal act in most civilized countries and the perpetrators if reported, are hunted down and brought to justice. Recently we have seen a lot of action in the UK in respect of cases stretching back for several years. Some involving people in show business and some Very high ranking offenders, some well advanced in age that have been brought to justice, whilse other cases are pending as complaints and investigations continue. The question to ask is can offenders be successfully reformed? Can they be trusted or would the temptation be too overpowering for them. if I am not mistaken, I believe that there is an almost universal Practice not to re-engage former known and convicted offenders in any positions where they would have unsupervised access to children. The question to ponder here is, can a former offending worker be trusted? Forgiveness and trust may not gel very well with most folks who have been affected by this form of abuse, considering that all it takes is the opportunity and the inclination for a person to re- offend.. They may be able to forgive, but to forget and be trusting might be much more difficult to achieve, since it has a life long affect on victims and their families.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 16:35:54 GMT -5
You know as well as I do the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding repentance and forgiveness, there is no need for me to repeat them here. Yes, I know them. I believe you also know the teaching of Jesus Christ about false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing, whitewashed tombs, those who look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean, hypocrites, those who don't enter the kingdom of God themselves and don't let others in either, who lay heavy burdens on others, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel, those who on the outside appear to people as righteous but on the inside are full of hypocrisy and wickedness, those who sit in the seat of Moses but whose example should not be imitated because they say but don't do, who love place of importance and distinction and to be shown sign of special respect, who travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte only to make him twice as much a child of hell as themselves, who neglect justice, mercy and faithfulness, who clean the outside, but neglect the inside, who appear righteous, but inwardly are full of hypocrisy, self-indulgence, lawlessness. Why did Jesus waste His breath on such? Because He knew that there will always be danger of such people exalting themselves as spiritual giants, enticing people to follow after them. That's why He exhorted us to judge them by their fruit - not the outside. Those who commit the filthiest things UNDER THE COVER OF SECRECY, and who have the audacity to keep pretending nothing happened, and also those who participate in the same by not exposing it and rejecting it fit the above description. .
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Post by Admin on Sept 25, 2014 16:40:34 GMT -5
One important issue for discussion with regards to improving the Fellowship is 'exclusivity'.
For those Workers and Friends alike who uphold the exclusivity of the Fellowship as being the only way to heaven, this could be more clearly explained and articulated. In our age of mass communication, we cannot expect that such an important teaching can be retained and passed on through largely unspoken subliminal messages. Probably unlike even 50 years ago, today in Western society most people who might walk into a gospel meeting for first time have only a basic or likely no background in Christian faith. Workers need to start with the 'a,b,c' of the important doctrines including the what and how of salvation.
What is the biblical basis for the teaching (whether spoken or implied) of exclusivity? What are its implications?
For those Friends (and perhaps few Workers) who do not believe in the exclusivity of the Fellowship, an improvement would be to discuss openly the implications for the Fellowship. How does this belief affect Workers and their life commitment, how would the Fellowship change and survive (and perhaps grow, even stronger)? What important role could such a non-exclusive Fellowship play in the wider world of believers? What are the biblical bases?
Who are the other Christians and what should be our relationship to them, for those with non-exclusive beliefs?
And lastly, how could the Fellowship better manage the huge shifts in mass communication in the past 20 years (and what are the risks if it doesn't)?
Like to hear your thoughts! admin
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 16:50:01 GMT -5
Maja one post of yours : The answer is: they should NOT have a place in the work, and here is why:
1) Because it’s a celibate ministry: No explanation needed, although it is discussed bellow.
the next post: I have not provided anything from the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding what to do with a minister belonging to a celibate ministry who is known to have engaged in sexual immorality at least once because THERE WAS NO SUCH THING as a celibate ministry. Even epistle writers didn't address such issues because there was no celibate ministry.
In the first post you seek to justify your contention that if a worker has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again because it is a celibate ministry then you in your second post dismiss a celibate ministry? I am unable to understand your statement "That is a sin starts in the heart" with respect to the matter of discussion "a worker has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again" How would this invalidate the teachings of Jesus of repentance and forgiveness in respect to the particular situation we are discussing?. I have stated my reasons why I am unable to agree with your thinking or conviction about that if a worker has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again. That is the facility TMB offers us to express our thoughts and convictions in a public forum. You combine 2 short parts from 2 different posts, asking how they fit together, neglecting that they are answers to 2 DIFFERENT questions, even though you asked both questions. Can you please ask them again, but explain how they don't relate to their respective questions or what aspect of how they relate to their respective questions is not clear. What does it mean for you "to fall into temptation"? Please provide relevant explanation and example. For now, it seems you are saying that having sex while in the celibate ministry is not "a sin that starts in the heart" but falls into a presumably different category of "falling into temptation." Is my conclusion correct? Please explain.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 16:53:06 GMT -5
One important issue for discussion with regards to improving the Fellowship is 'exclusivity'. For those Workers and Friends alike who uphold the exclusivity of the Fellowship as being the only way to heaven, this could be more clearly explained and articulated. In our age of mass communication, we cannot expect that such an important teaching can be retained and passed on through largely unspoken subliminal messages. Probably unlike even 50 years ago, today in Western society most people who might walk into a gospel meeting for first time have only a basic or likely no background in Christian faith. Workers need to start with the 'a,b,c' of the important doctrines including the what and how of salvation. What is the biblical basis for the teaching (whether spoken or implied) of exclusivity? What are its implications? For those Friends (and perhaps few Workers) who do not believe in the exclusivity of the Fellowship, an improvement would be to discuss openly the implications for the Fellowship. How does this belief affect Workers and their life commitment, how would the Fellowship change and survive (and perhaps grow, even stronger)? What important role could such a non-exclusive Fellowship play in the wider world of believers? What are the biblical bases? Who are the other Christians and what should be our relationship to them, for those with non-exclusive beliefs? And lastly, how could the Fellowship better manage the huge shifts in mass communication in the past 20 years (and what are the risks if it doesn't)? Like to hear your thoughts! admin i don't entirely believe in exclusivity but here are the verses used most often to explain that... Mat_7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 17:10:52 GMT -5
One important issue for discussion with regards to improving the Fellowship is 'exclusivity'. For those Workers and Friends alike who uphold the exclusivity of the Fellowship as being the only way to heaven, this could be more clearly explained and articulated. In our age of mass communication, we cannot expect that such an important teaching can be retained and passed on through largely unspoken subliminal messages. Probably unlike even 50 years ago, today in Western society most people who might walk into a gospel meeting for first time have only a basic or likely no background in Christian faith. Workers need to start with the 'a,b,c' of the important doctrines including the what and how of salvation. What is the biblical basis for the teaching (whether spoken or implied) of exclusivity? What are its implications? For those Friends (and perhaps few Workers) who do not believe in the exclusivity of the Fellowship, an improvement would be to discuss openly the implications for the Fellowship. How does this belief affect Workers and their life commitment, how would the Fellowship change and survive (and perhaps grow, even stronger)? What important role could such a non-exclusive Fellowship play in the wider world of believers? What are the biblical bases? Who are the other Christians and what should be our relationship to them, for those with non-exclusive beliefs? And lastly, how could the Fellowship better manage the huge shifts in mass communication in the past 20 years (and what are the risks if it doesn't)? Like to hear your thoughts! admin i don't entirely believe in exclusivity but here are the verses used most often to explain that... Mat_7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. No, Wally, I have to disappoint you, but these verses are not about exclusivity, but are a warning against false prophets and against trusting in what doesn't save. Here is the context: 15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
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Post by Admin on Sept 25, 2014 17:10:56 GMT -5
Admin, you have covered a lot of ground in this post! We would like to hear your thoughts and convictions about the matters you have mentioned in your post! Would you be willing to do a post setting these things out? I'm sure it would give the basis for some very meaningful discussion! Thank you review005, I try not to influence the debate or flavor of TMB too much as I do not believe that is my role. I will give some thought to your invitation. Perhaps it will give you a clue if I declare that my convictions are those of an evangelical, bible-based Christian. I don't use 'evangelical, bible-based' in the sense of 'right-wing, fundamentalist', but I do subscribe to the inspiration, inerrancy, and authority of scripture. I will give some thought and prayer to your suggestion. Meanwhile, thank you and all who are engaging here. Blessings, admin
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Post by bubbles on Sept 25, 2014 17:26:35 GMT -5
Maja we will be in agreement that sexual immorality is wrong. We will be in agreement that it is wrong for you or me or anyone.I do not condone it or excuse it in any shape or form. You have not provided me with anything from the teaching of Jesus Christ supporting your contention that if a worker has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again. You know as well as I do the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding repentance and forgiveness, there is no need for me to repeat them here. With due respect if your conviction is that if a worker has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again. Then I understand why our friends and workers there are unable to be in agreement with you. Oh dear. Review scripture clearly states the sins of the flesh and the need to be overcomers by the power of the holy spirit growing from glory to glory. It is incomprehensible to accept a repented pedophile back serving as a leader in the body of christ. Repent and continue to worship and serve the lord yes. Theres a scripture about "if you touch one of my little ones better a millstone be thrown around your neck" - obvious punishment. Adultery murder hatred etc he can forgive. Can he forgive pedophilier? With all due respect im begining to think whether your workers are hearing from god and in touch with the holy spirit. Lets not forget he doesnt defile his word The word is powerful like a double edged sword to deviding soul and marrow. Then there the outworking of repentence and reaping what you have sown.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 17:28:36 GMT -5
You combine 2 short parts from 2 different posts, asking how they fit together, neglecting that they are answers to 2 DIFFERENT questions, even though you asked both questions. Can you please ask them again, but explain how they don't relate to their respective questions or what aspect of how they relate to their respective questions is not clear. What does it mean for you "to fall into temptation"? Please provide relevant explanation and example. For now, it seems you are saying that having sex while in the celibate ministry is not "a sin that starts in the heart" but falls into a presumably different category of "falling into temptation." Is my conclusion correct? Please explain. Maja: You feel a worker who has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation that they should never have a place in the work again. I accept that. There will be an endless number of scenarios and different individual situations but I simply cannot and will not agree to the statement that unilaterally a worker who has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation should never have a place in the work again. The teaching of Christ forbids me to do such. As for me and my house, we have opened our home to enough perverts who "deserved forgiveness" for our lifetime. The teaching of Christ forbids me not to look at the fruit or beware of false prophets. Again, I am asking you to explain what "falling into temptation" means to you? It seems you mean that immorality can be either through "falling into temptation" or otherwise. What is "falling into temptation" and what is the other category?
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Post by bubbles on Sept 25, 2014 17:32:59 GMT -5
I would be gravely concerned for the people if the workers allowed a known pedophile back into any leadership role. Also, consider this. Would/could the holy spirit remain in that ministry. If he leaves you end up with a dead church. No life. No inspiration. No growth. Serious stuff.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 17:35:19 GMT -5
Review scripture clearly states the sins of the flesh and the need to be overcomers by the power of the holy spirit growing from glory to glory. It is incomprehensible to accept a repented pedophile back serving as a leader in the body of christ. Repent and continue to worship and serve the lord yes. Theres a scripture about "if you touch one of my little ones better a millstone be thrown around your neck" - obvious punishment. Adultery murder hatred etc he can forgive. Can he forgive pedophilier? With all due respect im begining to think whether your workers are hearing from god and in touch with the holy spirit. Lets not forget he doesnt defile his word The word is powerful like a double edged sword to deviding soul and marrow. Then there the outworking of repentence and reaping what you have sown. Rest at ease, we are not discussing CSA, but just sexual immorality, and whether a worker who is known to have engaged in sexual immorality should be allowed to remain in the work. That is not to say that such are never allowed to remain in the work, just that it's not the topic right now.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 25, 2014 17:39:46 GMT -5
I see you are referring to imoralality. Oops. Flying by the seat of my pants again! Ive know a pastor taken in adultry many wounded people as a result because they looked up to their pastor. Few yrs later hes back in the ministry it happens again. He repents and returns to first wife all is kosha and hes still running his church.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2014 17:44:39 GMT -5
Let us consider that we are all vulnerable creatures, we make mistakes because we are not perfect. Let us consider Saul the persecuter of the early Christian church, he was consenting to the stoning of Stephen and his death. However, God was able to make a change in his life on his way to Tarsus when he heard the voice of Jesus and saw that bright light so that he became an apostle of Christ and became Paul. From his past reputation some of the early Christians feared him, but he was a changed man of God. With God all things are possible, we should bear that in mind when contemplatingg making changes.
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Post by Admin on Sept 25, 2014 17:48:28 GMT -5
Bubbles do you understand that I have not been discussing the subject of child molestation on this thread? This is not a thread to discuss CSA. It is self-evident that every church organization afflicted with CSA issues needs to improve in this area.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 25, 2014 17:49:38 GMT -5
Partaker True Paul was many things prior to his conversion but he didnt mess with childrens lives.
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Post by fixit on Sept 25, 2014 17:52:11 GMT -5
One of the top leaders, Ray Hoffman, seems to place a higher value on service in the ministry than on protecting children's homes from sexually immoral workers.
i.e. he seems to compartmentalize the two issues of service to the ministry on the one hand and sexual immorality on the other.
Are workers so much higher than the friends that we should be thankful even for the sexually immoral ones?
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 17:55:45 GMT -5
As for me and my house, we have opened our home to enough perverts who "deserved forgiveness" for our lifetime. The teaching of Christ forbids me not to look at the fruit or beware of false prophets. Again, I am asking you to explain what "falling into temptation" means to you? It seems you mean that immorality can be either through "falling into temptation" or otherwise. What is "falling into temptation" and what is the other category? I have no thought of two categories when I made the statement. One example of temptation would be responding to seduction. Indeed. Sounds familiar. I know by now that this is a popular explanation of how a distinguished brother worker would find himself in the predicament of being accused of abuse. I have heard it all before. Even Tim Severud accused the little girls of "seducing" him because he didn't have enough integrity to own up to his mistakes and take responsibility for them. Blame it on the victim. Point fingers at them. Yes, I've heard it before both with CSA and adult abuse. I assumed you had 2 categories in mind because you said: "worker who has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation." OK, so let's remove the word 'perhaps.' So, he 'has fallen in temptation,' period. Do you see 'falling into temptation' as an accident that is or isn't reflective of the inward spiritual state of the person? Is it something that can happen without the person falling into sin inwardly first?
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Post by bubbles on Sept 25, 2014 18:03:55 GMT -5
Bubbles do you understand that I have not been discussing the subject of child molestation on this thread? This is not a thread to discuss CSA. It is self-evident that every church organization inflicted with CSA issues needs to improve in this area. Apologies. Please feel free to delete the posts. B
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 18:06:13 GMT -5
No, Wally, I have to disappoint you, but these verses are not about exclusivity, but are a warning against false prophets and against trusting in what doesn't save. Here is the context: 15“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus you will recognize them by their fruits. 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ Here are some verses for exclusivity Jesus said " I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father but through me." Jesus said, " He that is NOT with me is against me."
The apostle Peter said in Acts 4:10-12 " Let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead— by this name this man stands here before you in good health. He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” These verses can only be used to justify Christian exclusivity, not exclusivity of the Fellowship, which is what Admin was asking about.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 18:11:18 GMT -5
Why is the ministry the right place for people with unresolved deep and fundamental problems? Perhaps your question is answered below... In 2013, we were told by a worker in a discussion regarding both CSA and immorality, that the need for workers is the primary cause of retaining offenders in the ministry. Only, this worker was very much grieved about it. We've heard of a similar reasoning coming from Australia as well.
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Post by What Hat on Sept 25, 2014 18:56:03 GMT -5
One important issue for discussion with regards to improving the Fellowship is 'exclusivity'. For those Workers and Friends alike who uphold the exclusivity of the Fellowship as being the only way to heaven, this could be more clearly explained and articulated. In our age of mass communication, we cannot expect that such an important teaching can be retained and passed on through largely unspoken subliminal messages. Probably unlike even 50 years ago, today in Western society most people who might walk into a gospel meeting for first time have only a basic or likely no background in Christian faith. Workers need to start with the 'a,b,c' of the important doctrines including the what and how of salvation. What is the biblical basis for the teaching (whether spoken or implied) of exclusivity? What are its implications? I know the head worker in one part of Canada often said "the only way to Jesus is through the meeting in the home and the ministry without a home". If that doctrine is accepted wholesale, then you necessarily have a very exclusive fellowship. The head worker in this part of Canada stated, "we should worship Jesus in Spirit and in Truth, and Truth is the meeting in the home and the ministry without a home". Differences in doctrine, and incorrect doctrine existed among the early Christians, and were tolerated, so they should be tolerated today. I don't believe that any particular teaching of the workers has to change; it's largely a question of attitude. There are specific practices that the friends could adopt ( and some have ) in order to be less exclusive. 1) Expand the circle for social events, invite other Christians. 2) Attend other churches to see what they are like. 3) Read more widely, especially in Christian doctrine and history. 4) Join forces with other churches or efforts in terms of charity work. If they truly believe "we don't judge" then why not adopt some of the practices I mentioned above. Participate on the TMB!
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 19:08:15 GMT -5
Indeed. Sounds familiar. I know by now that this is a popular explanation of how a distinguished brother worker would find himself in the predicament of being accused of abuse. I have heard it all before. Even Tim Severud accused the little girls of "seducing" him because he didn't have enough integrity to own up to his mistakes and take responsibility for them. Blame it on the victim. Point fingers at them. Yes, I've heard it before both with CSA and adult abuse. I assumed you had 2 categories in mind because you said: "worker who has been immoral once, perhaps fallen in a temptation." OK, so let's remove the word 'perhaps.' So, he 'has fallen in temptation,' period. Do you see 'falling into temptation' as an accident that is or isn't reflective of the inward spiritual state of the person? Is it something that can happen without the person falling into sin inwardly first? Are you dismissing seduction as an activity that men and women use when immorality occurs? I am dismissing it as a factor that should be considered. Common sense tells us that in any relationship someone has to make the first step. Just because I didn't make the first step, but the second, doesn't make me any less guilty than the one who made the first step. It's a cop-out and unwillingness to take responsibility for your own actions. This is what I talk about with my son every day, because nothing is ever his fault, someone always "made him do it." I worry about my son. But he is only 10, so there is still hope. Now, if adults, and especially ones in the position of spiritual authority cannot do better than my son, that indicates a much greater problem. I mean, it's basic stuff. Adam said: Eve made me do it! Was he off the hook? No. On the other hand, Joseph, the man of integrity, he didn't say: She is making me do it, I can't help it! No. He ran away and even suffered for it. That's integrity. Or, when David sinned and Nathan reproved him, he didn't say: She made me do it! She was bathing in my view! No, he took responsibility for his actions and accepted the consequences and learned from it. That's integrity. I am also dismissing seduction as a factor that should be considered because I know for a fact that the workers have been taught (whether directly or indirectly) to consider all reports of sexual immorality of brother workers as cases of seduction. Or as false accusations of abuse unleashed by a woman whose advances were rejected by the brother worker. Yes, those are real explanations I've heard regarding real abuse cases. I myself was embarrassed for those who gave me those explanations/excuses. But many workers are so used to such explanations that they don't see anything wrong with them and will repeat them unquestioningly.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 19:13:45 GMT -5
Are you dismissing seduction as an activity that men and women use when immorality occurs? I am glad that my redeemer does not analyse my sin the way you analyse sin. I guess you understand you will be judged in the manner you judge? I am not packing up these people into FedEx boxes with "Hell" on the shipping label. I am not operating Hell/Heaven traffic controls. I am talking about what is best for their souls and what is best for the church. And for my family.
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Post by mdm on Sept 25, 2014 19:15:31 GMT -5
These verses can only be used to justify Christian exclusivity, not exclusivity of the Fellowship, which is what Admin was asking about. Here are verses for exclusive of Fellowship I John 1:1-7
What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us— what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. Indeed it is, fellowship with Jesus. Not fellowship with the "Fellowship"
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