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Post by bubbles on Sept 24, 2014 5:50:59 GMT -5
One pat answer we were given was 'you dont need to know' With that reply they should have been kind enough to explain to you in a kind, caring loving, gentle manner why you did not need to know. As it was given it appears to me to be a harsh snub reply- sort of putting you in your place. A sort of arrogant instead of a humble answer as would be expected. These are the kinds of changes that needs to be made to improve relationships in any Christian fellowship where love is supposed to be the Kingdom's banner. God is love and he loved us before we even loved Him, He is our example. A few yrs later we realised they just didnt know the answer. Hubby asked many challeging questions.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 24, 2014 6:05:24 GMT -5
I don't put God aside. However, God has given us spiritual leaders who should be able to give spiritual answers. Do you think that workers shouldn't be questioned about doctrine or other issues that affect the church? How about something simple such as should the emblems sit on a doily in the middle of the room, or should they be kept under cover in a corner until needed? Or how about something concerning hair length on men or women, and why the church believes as they do. Or why the senior workers tolerate having known sexual predators on their staff...... all questions that can be answered from Heaven, i certainly know where i want the answers to my question to come from Virgo Hypertheticly: Do you think that heaven will reveal to you who the pedophile is? If you recieved that information what would you do with it? Do you think the holy spirit would tell you?
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Post by bubbles on Sept 24, 2014 6:10:40 GMT -5
What do you mean by 'had a hard time communicating'? Review005 I recall reading GT had known about abusers since 2004? That shocked me. It is 8yrs .
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Post by mdm on Sept 24, 2014 10:47:46 GMT -5
I feel sorry for the sincere and diligent workers who publicly advertise their gospel meetings, and distribute thousands of invitations in letter boxes, with the hope of attracting the Majas of this world to the fellowship. Their leaders spend months at a time tripping around the world having fellowship with their colleagues, yet they're unwilling or unable to deal with the issues that are driving the Majas of the fellowship away. for a start as you well know it is God who does the attracting and it is God who is the one who answers the issues if one has faith to take the problem to Him, after all there is no greater problem solver that this world has known ah but alas this place seems to be where answers are sort I am not answering for all the 'Majas' of the world, but would like to let you know that this Maja did take her questions about church issues that troubled her to God and that she did receive answers, not on tmb, but in that place of prayer.
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Post by mdm on Sept 24, 2014 11:01:02 GMT -5
I feel sorry for the sincere and diligent workers who publicly advertise their gospel meetings, and distribute thousands of invitations in letter boxes, with the hope of attracting the Majas of this world to the fellowship. Their leaders spend months at a time tripping around the world having fellowship with their colleagues, yet they're unwilling or unable to deal with the issues that are driving the Majas of the fellowship away. Fixit: Have you had any personal experience of what you write of? Or is it all that which you would paste and post from what you have read on the net? If you have any personal experience in what you write of, it would be helpful and meaningful for you to share that here. Why not comment on my post that fixit was commenting on? Or perhaps you are...? Are you saying that you consider my post irrelevant or untruthful and therefore fixit should also? We don't need to have 'personal experience' of wrongdoing ourselves to propel us to speak and act. It is the love for the neighbor and the church that should propel us to speak and act. We cannot close our eyes to injustice, abuse just because we haven't experienced it ourselves. "And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it."
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Post by mdm on Sept 24, 2014 11:17:11 GMT -5
Fixit Appreciate your reply; I understand you have no personal experience of what you have posted of. Your post being based on what you have read of others writing and perception of their experience with 'incapable and/or unwilling globe trotting leaders of the fellowship'. thanks! One can actually at times go to the source and verify the truthfulness of stories. We did just that. We wanted to know: is this true? how can it be? is this really happening within and in the name of our church? We went to the sources to verify what happened and we went to the workers to get their side of the story and implore them to right the matters. The problem in the church is that most people would rather not know what is happening, because they know they are not supposed to 'question' the workers, and as long as their own family is not affected, they are happy to brush aside other people's experiences.
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Post by mdm on Sept 24, 2014 11:30:07 GMT -5
I find nothing for meaningful discussion in Their leaders spend months at a time tripping around the world having fellowship with their colleagues, yet they're unwilling or unable to deal with the issues that are driving the Majas of the fellowship away. The claim you have made certainly has no basis of personal experience to it and is at best is a dubious disputable statement. I believe fixit is referring to convention rounds. What part of his statement do you find dubious and disputable?
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Post by mdm on Sept 24, 2014 11:37:13 GMT -5
Do you think we're only qualified to discuss issues that touch us personally? yes unless you have full and total knowledge of what others think, feel, say and do. for you to have that you would have to be God Therefore, no human is qualified to discuss issues that don't touch them personally? Is that an excuse for not taking interest in other people's suffering and injustices? That is not what the Bible teaches. Quite the opposite.
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Post by mdm on Sept 24, 2014 11:43:31 GMT -5
Are workers in your church considered to be spiritual leaders? If not, what is their purpose? In all other churches that I have attended, the pastors/priests/elders/deacons/youth pastors etc are all willing to discuss issues and answer questions. Do you feel that the workers are incapable of answering questions from the church? That is a very interesting statement from you. Incidentally, I have had no problem getting various workers to answer direct questions from me. These are from the overseer down to new workers. Perhaps it is just members of the fellowship that have an issue in asking the questions..... becareful you don't put Jesus to one side for answers of men can you tell me who would give the best answer? man or Jesus? what is wrong with going right to the source of all righteous knowledge? I'll always take the answer that comes from God over the one that comes from man, but that doesn't negate that NT churches had teachers or that there is still a need for teachers. In fact, the workers fill that role in their church.
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Post by mdm on Sept 24, 2014 11:51:50 GMT -5
Yes, put the blame on GT! That's more convenient. Now you have gotten rid of that one pesky fly! That was easy! Phew.... You know, there are some things you don't have to ask God about - because they are obvious from reading the Bible. Waiting for a direct answer from God, while ignoring His Word is disingenuous.
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Post by fixit on Sept 24, 2014 13:49:38 GMT -5
What do you mean by 'had a hard time communicating'? The communication process is complete once the receiver understands the sender's message.
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Post by fixit on Sept 24, 2014 15:34:25 GMT -5
I believe fixit is referring to convention rounds. What part of his statement do you find dubious and disputable? I find all of this dubious and disputable. At best it is a wild and incorrect generalisation. ''Charity begins at home'. Fixit is proficient in 'copying and pasting' world wide 2x2 information, disinformation and misinformation. Their leaders spend months at a time tripping around the world having fellowship with their colleagues, yet they're unwilling or unable to deal with the issues that are driving the Majas of the fellowship away.
Fixit: is this a correct true statement for the country where you live? If you feel it is true you could perhaps give factual basis for the statement. Otherwise I stand by the post I made calling it a dubious and disputable statement. An incorrect statement again numerous godly men, swept up in this incorrect generalisation. I didn't state that these were not godly men. Why would you think that? Just that they're unwilling or unable to deal with the issues that are driving the Majas of the fellowship away.
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Post by mdm on Sept 24, 2014 15:34:36 GMT -5
I believe fixit is referring to convention rounds. What part of his statement do you find dubious and disputable? I find all of this dubious and disputable. At best it is a wild and incorrect generalisation. ''Charity begins at home'. Fixit is proficient in 'copying and pasting' world wide 2x2 information, disinformation and misinformation. Their leaders spend months at a time tripping around the world having fellowship with their colleagues, yet they're unwilling or unable to deal with the issues that are driving the Majas of the fellowship away.
Fixit: is this a correct true statement for the country where you live? If you feel it is true you could perhaps give factual basis for the statement. Otherwise I stand by the post I made calling it a dubious and disputable statement. An incorrect statement again numerous godly men, swept up in this incorrect generalisation. Fixit's observation was that the church leaders are unable or unwilling to deal with the issues that are driving people away. Specifically, they are unable or unwilling to deal with issues that drove my husband and I away. Would you like to comment on that, because that is really at the heart of the matter of what fixit is talking about?
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Post by fixit on Sept 24, 2014 15:59:32 GMT -5
Fixit's complaint was that the church leaders are unable or unwilling to deal with the issues that are driving people away. Specifically, they are unable or unwilling to deal with issues that drove my husband and I away. Would you like to comment on that, because that is really at the heart of the matter of what fixit is talking about? "Complaint" is not the right word Maja. "Observation" would be better.
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Post by Admin on Sept 24, 2014 17:39:59 GMT -5
Please keep the posts on this thread ON TOPIC.
My purpose in starting this was for genuine posting of ideas, and discussion around them. Already we have had some good suggestions (wishes). I do not want it degenerating into personal clashes and what comes across as point-scoring, not constructive discussion.
Posts that aren't obviously ON TOPIC will be deleted, as there are plenty of other places for them.
Also I would like this thread at least to be a welcoming environment for all Workers who venture onto TMB.
Thank you for understanding, Admin
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Post by fixit on Sept 24, 2014 17:41:23 GMT -5
Fixit's observation was that the church leaders are unable or unwilling to deal with the issues that are driving people away. Specifically, they are unable or unwilling to deal with issues that drove my husband and I away. Would you like to comment on that, because that is really at the heart of the matter of what fixit is talking about? No I am not able to comment specifically on your allegation that church leaders drove you and your husband away. Why?....because I only know a little of the situation; your perspective contained in what you have posted . I know nothing of the perspective of godly men like Lyle S the Overseer in your state. I know nothing of the perspective of the many others you have mentioned who would not support you. Unlike fixit I am unable to support you and condemn f&ws (globetrotting leaders in this instance) who have not agreed with you. I would not do that without hearing and considering their perspective. (the three sides to each situation; yours, mine and then God's or the right side) I stand by that statement I made that fixit made a sweeping and incorrect generalisation based upon a situation in which he has no personal knowledge or involvement. You know nothing of the perspective of these men... Yet you know that my statement is incorrect???
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Post by fixit on Sept 24, 2014 17:53:04 GMT -5
Graham Thompson's appeal in February 2008 is something to consider:
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Post by bubbles on Sept 24, 2014 17:59:17 GMT -5
I find all of this dubious and disputable. At best it is a wild and incorrect generalization. ''Charity begins at home'. Fixit is proficient in 'copying and pasting' world wide 2x2 information, disinformation and misinformation. Their leaders spend months at a time tripping around the world having fellowship with their colleagues, yet they're unwilling or unable to deal with the issues that are driving the Majas of the fellowship away.
Fixit: is this a correct true statement for the country where you live? If you feel it is true you could perhaps give factual basis for the statement. Otherwise I stand by the post I made calling it a dubious and disputable statement. An incorrect statement again numerous godly men, swept up in this incorrect generalization. I didn't state that these were not godly men. Why would you think that? Just that they're unwilling or unable to deal with the issues that are driving the Majas of the fellowship away. When I was last involved in churches there was a common theme circulating. People were tired of religious people acting super spiritual. It was often stated lets be real! We are human beings. Sometimes things are spiritualised and it can be difficult to have a normal conversation. Using comon sense rather than quoting scripture for every reason we do things. A problem ie: CSA is a serious community problem. Which needs to be addressed in a sensable legal way. It would be ok to leave God out of the conversation in this instance.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 24, 2014 18:00:48 GMT -5
Graham Thompson's appeal in February 2008 is something to consider: GT was responding the way a leader should. I see nothing wrong here
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Post by fixit on Sept 24, 2014 19:28:06 GMT -5
You know nothing of the perspective of these men... Yet you know that my statement is incorrect??? yes . It is an incorrect generalisation. Do you mean that the leaders are willing and able to deal with the issues that are driving the Majas of the fellowship away?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 24, 2014 21:08:08 GMT -5
Review what do you think needs to improve in the F&W Fellowship ? Maybe a good start would be having the same "rules" the world over? Have everyone on the same page ?
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Post by fixit on Sept 24, 2014 21:31:42 GMT -5
Fixit, you have made a number of posts since this post I notice you have chosen not to respond to what I asked. That of course is ok, you are not required to if you do not wish to. This thread is entitled "Ways for the F&W fellowship to improve". You condemn everything I suggest so I'm not seeing any value in furthering this discussion with you.
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Post by fixit on Sept 24, 2014 21:35:37 GMT -5
Review005: you might be able to control and manipulate people off line, but this is an open forum that you are not in charge of.
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Post by stevnz on Sept 24, 2014 22:59:44 GMT -5
yesterday at 10:35am fixit said: I feel sorry for the sincere and diligent workers who publicly advertise their gospel meetings, and distribute thousands of invitations in letter boxes, with the hope of attracting the Majas of this world to the fellowship. Their leaders spend months at a time tripping around the world having fellowship with their colleagues, yet they're unwilling or unable to deal with the issues that are driving the Majas of the fellowship away. I believe fixit is referring to convention rounds. What part of his statement do you find dubious and disputable? I find all of this dubious and disputable. At best it is a wild and incorrect generalisation. ''Charity begins at home'. Fixit is proficient in 'copying and pasting' world wide 2x2 information, disinformation and misinformation. Their leaders spend months at a time tripping around the world having fellowship with their colleagues, yet they're unwilling or unable to deal with the issues that are driving the Majas of the fellowship away.
Fixit: is this a correct true statement for the country where you live? If you feel it is true you could perhaps give factual basis for the statement. Otherwise I stand by the post I made calling it a dubious and disputable statement. An incorrect statement again numerous godly men, swept up in this incorrect generalisation. This could be an incorrect generalisation if only some, but not all, leaders spend months travelling the world but not dealing with issues that drive people away from the fellowship. However it would still be an important matter to consider for this topic of 'how to improve the fellowship'. The consideration of whether some or all of the leaders are Godly is a judgement that will be made by God, just as it would be for all of us. If there is disinformation and misinformation being promulgated then the fellowship could be improved by someone providing corrections, and by providing open access to the correct information.
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Post by fixit on Sept 24, 2014 23:20:32 GMT -5
This could be an incorrect generalisation if only some, but not all, leaders spend months travelling the world but not dealing with issues that drive people away from the fellowship. Who are these leaders who are willing and able to deal with the issues?
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Post by nswelshman on Sept 24, 2014 23:42:13 GMT -5
i find that Jesus answers my questions, there is no misunderstanding when we have faith enough to wait on Him for the answer isn't He the way? Why have workers or church leaders then? Why have teachers of any kind? Do you think that Paul, Peter and others might have been asked plenty of questions in their day. I think so. Some workers have been known to conduct open forums with younger folk - I am sure they have been appreciated. I understand that one was conducted in Sydney in the past few years. I am sure it was positively received by a number. The only suggestion for improvement I have heard is that young people should not have to submit their questions in advance - workers should be willing to take questions without notice. Pauline Brunsdon was the instigator of the Sydney young people's q&a times for want of a better word. Quite a number were held all up.
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Post by mdm on Sept 24, 2014 23:42:32 GMT -5
Fixit's observation was that the church leaders are unable or unwilling to deal with the issues that are driving people away. Specifically, they are unable or unwilling to deal with issues that drove my husband and I away. Would you like to comment on that, because that is really at the heart of the matter of what fixit is talking about? No I am not able to comment specifically on your allegation that church leaders drove you and your husband away. Why?....because I only know a little of the situation; your perspective contained in what you have posted . I know nothing of the perspective of godly men like Lyle S the Overseer in your state. I know nothing of the perspective of the many others you have mentioned who would not support you. Unlike fixit I am unable to support you and condemn f&ws (globetrotting leaders in this instance) who have not agreed with you. I would not do that without hearing and considering their perspective. (the three sides to each situation; yours, mine and then God's or the right side) I stand by that statement I made that fixit made a sweeping and incorrect generalisation based upon a situation in which he has no personal knowledge or involvement. I’d like to make it clear that we don’t have an issue with Lyle S., or any overseer in particular. Lyle just happened to be the overseer of our state that year, and he took the time to talk to us, which we of course appreciate. We did discuss couple of situations that we had verified information on, but the main concern for us was that these problems seem to be systemic and widespread. Unwillingness or inability to correct these particular and straight-forward situations confirmed to us the systemic nature of the problem, as well as that there is no effective mechanism for addressing and resolving problems. You say that you cannot ‘condemn’ overseers for not agreeing with us without hearing and considering their perspective. I am not ‘condemning’ them either, just trying to discern right from wrong. What perspective do those in place of leadership and authority have that causes them to not take responsibility for the mistakes that have been made, apologize for them, commit to not repeating them in the future and take concrete steps in that direction? The ‘mistakes’ that concern us are: not dealing with CSA allegations in a legally, morally and spiritually appropriate way, and allowing those who have committed immorality to remain in the (celibate) ministry. We have actually received some answers as to their perspective. If you are interested, I can share them, but of course, it would mean more to you if you heard it directly from them. Perhaps you could ask your overseer what his take on our letter was. What situation does fixit have no personal knowledge or involvement in? The content of our letter to overseers? Again, why is his personal knowledge or involvement important? Is it because of the established rule to not meddle in somebody else’s territory? Just as a worker advised us to not worry about what happens ‘somewhere else'? Of course, she was just repeating what she’s been taught in the ministry and she was well-meaning. But I have an issue with that rule. It allows evil to go unchecked, because ‘it doesn’t concern’ anyone who isn’t directly being victimized. It leaves victims alone and forgotten. We did not speak out because something has happened to us, but we took interest in others and tried to find out what happened to them. Finally, I want to try to express just how much attributing the term ‘godly’ to men based on their place in the hierarchy scares me and just how cultic it sounds. I’ve heard it before, and I’ve heard it from couple of workers. They said that the overseers were so pure and godly that they couldn’t enter into the problem of CSA and that’s why they couldn’t deal with it. What makes sense to me is that not dealing with CSA allegations evidences a lack of godliness and purity – as one horrified friend commented to us: where was their godly horror?? Following workers' logic, would it mean that lack of godliness and purity is what it takes to deal with CSA? When men are put up on a pedestal and automatically given attributes such as ‘godly’ and ‘anointed’ due to their place in the hierarchy, their judgement and decisions cannot be questioned because they have been declared ‘godly’ and ‘anointed’ - above suspicion. And, when a lapse in judgment is evident, then this ‘godliness’ is declared to be the culprit. Or, those who would question their judgments can easily be silenced through fear of displeasing God Himself, since these men are understood to be ‘godly’ and ‘anointed.’ This is a tried and proven technique for controlling the masses used by countless kings, emperors, and of course - popes. However, in most churches of today, questions and disagreements are not silenced through reminders that the ministers are ’godly’ or ‘anointed.’ The place should not have the function of declaring the occupant untouchable or sacrosanct, but of increasing his responsibility and accountability to those he is serving.
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Post by mdm on Sept 24, 2014 23:58:45 GMT -5
If there is disinformation and misinformation being promulgated then the fellowship could be improved by someone providing corrections, and by providing open access to the correct information. This is the solution to the 'dangers of Internet' that we suggested to 2 overseers. If people were able to get truthful and complete information on issues that concern them straight from church representatives, they wouldn't be turning to grapevine and Internet for incomplete and possibly corrupted information.
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