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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 17, 2014 17:05:33 GMT -5
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Post by matisse on Sept 17, 2014 19:41:53 GMT -5
Now that is interesting! I would welcome, and even applaud a "promotion" of the female-feminine to the level of the godhead within the Catholic Church. Having only male-masculine symbols "in heaven" has always struck me as terribly distorted and out of balance.
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Post by faune on Sept 18, 2014 0:53:14 GMT -5
Somehow this doesn't surprise me considering the adoration given to Mary over Jesus. Actually, it also reminds me of the Living Witness Doctrine of the 2x2's that put the workers and the fellowship on a similar pedestal and demotes Jesus as the hope of salvation in the process.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 18, 2014 1:42:00 GMT -5
Somehow this doesn't surprise me considering the adoration given to Mary over Jesus. Actually, it also reminds me of the Living Witness Doctrine of the 2x2's that put the workers and the fellowship on a similar pedestal and demotes Jesus as the hope of salvation in the process.
I wonder where this puts the Holy Ghost. I think it's difficult especially for Protestants to understand how it is that the Catholic Church seems to contradict some of the things that are in the Bible. The Bible, though a collection of their making, was intended not to be their sole guidance, but writings that were permissible for reading in churches. Before it was organized, Christian congregations were reading all kinds of things, and a lot of things that the Romans disapproved of. So the Bible was put together. But for centuries, and even today, the Bible is not really their ultimate source of doctrine, but the popes/church fathers revelations. They really make no pretense that the Trinity came from the Bible. In fact, the ECF didn't necessarily try to hide it -- unless the Roman government demanded its sources be hidden for political reasons. For many centuries Catholics also worshiped relics, so much so that someone guessed once that Jesus much have yielded nearly 100 fingernails in his lifetime. That practice basically ended with the arrival of Protestantism. It was Martin Luther who most influenced the notion that the Bible is the static, unchangeable core of Christian authority, and Protestants have fiercely clung to that ever since. For the first couple of hundred years of Christianity, it was forbidden, and considered a sin, to give Mary any recognition above a normal human woman. I'm quite sure Pope Francis knows all this. Of course, that's why the Catholic church has priests and most Protestants don't.
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Post by faune on Sept 18, 2014 19:49:31 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 18, 2014 21:46:08 GMT -5
Interesting, but for me I find it hard to believe that the Pope really means change in the position Jesus holds in the Holy Trinity.
That Jesus would ever be demoted to third place "behind 'mother' Mary and the 'Holy Mother Church'. Pope Francis reportedly "bestowed a position and title to the Virgin Mary equal or greater than that of the second Holy Trinity."
Good Lord! They won't even allow women to be priests yet!
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 18, 2014 22:00:32 GMT -5
Interesting, but for me I find it hard to believe that the Pope really means change in the position Jesus holds in the Holy Trinity.
That Jesus would ever be demoted to third place "behind 'mother' Mary and the 'Holy Mother Church'. Pope Francis reportedly "bestowed a position and title to the Virgin Mary equal or greater than that of the second Holy Trinity."
Good Lord! They won't even allow women to be priests yet!
This is the irony of Christianity -- the merging of a patriarchal ideology with a matriarchal tradition. As long as she gives no orders, she can stay. I was trying to find whether he was putting Mary into another "trinity", but from what I read he just displaced the Holy Ghost. But then, who needs a Holy Ghost if they need a priest.
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Post by faune on Sept 19, 2014 0:08:23 GMT -5
Interesting, but for me I find it hard to believe that the Pope really means change in the position Jesus holds in the Holy Trinity.
That Jesus would ever be demoted to third place "behind 'mother' Mary and the 'Holy Mother Church'. Pope Francis reportedly "bestowed a position and title to the Virgin Mary equal or greater than that of the second Holy Trinity."
Good Lord! They won't even allow women to be priests yet!
This is the irony of Christianity -- the merging of a patriarchal ideology with a matriarchal tradition. As long as she gives no orders, she can stay. I was trying to find whether he was putting Mary into another "trinity", but from what I read he just displaced the Holy Ghost. But then, who needs a Holy Ghost if they need a priest. Bob ~ You certainly can find some humor within the RCC today, especially with its relics and venerations of Mary.
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Post by matisse on Sept 19, 2014 7:39:10 GMT -5
You mock the institution that assembled the Bible you quote so often. Do you suppose they could have slipped in any "relics" in the process? Is it possible that the "joke" is on you?!
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Post by faune on Sept 19, 2014 10:07:34 GMT -5
You mock the institution that assembled the Bible you quote so often. Do you suppose they could have slipped in any "relics" in the process? Is it possible that the "joke" is on you?! Matisse ~ You never can tell? But, I wasn't the only one having some fun here! Besides, I'm Protestant and not Catholic, but I do have friends and family within the Catholic Church, so perhaps I shouldn't be joking around with Bob about this new enlightenment on Mary's status within the RCC?
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Post by matisse on Sept 19, 2014 12:07:38 GMT -5
Matisse ~ You never can tell? But, I wasn't the only one having some fun here! Besides, I'm Protestant and not Catholic, but I do have friends and family within the Catholic Church, so perhaps I shouldn't be joking around with Bob about this new enlightenment on Mary's status within the RCC? ::) Something like that. I don't see "fun" as much as I see deep irony!
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Post by faune on Sept 19, 2014 12:18:37 GMT -5
Matisse ~ You never can tell? But, I wasn't the only one having some fun here! Besides, I'm Protestant and not Catholic, but I do have friends and family within the Catholic Church, so perhaps I shouldn't be joking around with Bob about this new enlightenment on Mary's status within the RCC? Something like that. I don't see "fun" as much as I see deep irony! Matisse ~ Well, perhaps there is some deep irony considering the RCC claims to be the original Christian church back in time? However, there were early Christian groups who did not share the same dogma as instituted by the RCC and they either went into hiding or got eradicated from existence along with many of their writings. Of course, we do have the Nag Hammadi Library on-line today due to the foresight of some ancient monks burying their writings in porcelain jars which weren't discovered until around 1945 in upper Egypt. However, most of these writings were considered heretical by the RCC and many destroyed. The ones that survived were not found until the 20th century, many years later.
gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 19, 2014 12:46:40 GMT -5
Matisse ~ You never can tell? But, I wasn't the only one having some fun here! Besides, I'm Protestant and not Catholic, but I do have friends and family within the Catholic Church, so perhaps I shouldn't be joking around with Bob about this new enlightenment on Mary's status within the RCC? Something like that. I don't see "fun" as much as I see deep irony! Oddly enough, my experience with Catholics has been that they make more fun of the Church than Protestants do. Not all of them of course, but for run of the mill Catholics practicing Catholics the most important thing is to just show up and confess your sins. Catholics seem to take less personal responsibility for the failings of their church than do protestants. Of course, my experience with Catholics has mostly been in Canada. I went to a Catholic University where one of the medical school programs was the development of spray-on condoms. I don't think Notre Dame would allow it.
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Post by matisse on Sept 19, 2014 12:49:58 GMT -5
Something like that. I don't see "fun" as much as I see deep irony! Matisse ~ Well, perhaps there is some deep irony considering the RCC claims to be the original Christian church back in time? However, there were early Christian groups who did not share the same dogma as instituted by the RCC and they either went into hiding or got eradicated from existence along with many of their writings. Of course, we do have the Nag Hammadi Library on-line today due to the foresight of some ancient monks burying their writings in porcelain jars which weren't discovered until around 1945 in upper Egypt. However, most of these writings were considered heretical by the RCC and many destroyed. The ones that survived were not found until the 20th century, many years later. The existence of the Nag Hammadi Scriptures has no bearing on the fact that at the base of your protestant faith is a book that was compiled and produced by the Roman Catholic Church. Perhaps you should start reading and quoting from these other sources instead!
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Post by matisse on Sept 19, 2014 12:56:19 GMT -5
Something like that. I don't see "fun" as much as I see deep irony! Oddly enough, my experience with Catholics has been that they make more fun of the Church than Protestants do. Not all of them of course, but for run of the mill Catholics practicing Catholics the most important thing is to just show up and confess your sins. Catholics seem to take less personal responsibility for the failings of their church than do protestants. Of course, my experience with Catholics has mostly been in Canada. I went to a Catholic University where one of the medical school programs was the development of spray-on condoms. I don't think Notre Dame would allow it. :) I admire the ability to poke fun at oneself! What is ironic to me is that at the end of the day, the Bible-believing protestants who mock the Catholic Church are left clinging to the words of a book that was compiled and crafted by that very same "mockable" institution!
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Post by faune on Sept 19, 2014 13:14:22 GMT -5
Oddly enough, my experience with Catholics has been that they make more fun of the Church than Protestants do. Not all of them of course, but for run of the mill Catholics practicing Catholics the most important thing is to just show up and confess your sins. Catholics seem to take less personal responsibility for the failings of their church than do protestants. Of course, my experience with Catholics has mostly been in Canada. I went to a Catholic University where one of the medical school programs was the development of spray-on condoms. I don't think Notre Dame would allow it. I admire the ability to poke fun at oneself! What is ironic to me is that at the end of the day, the Bible-believing protestants who mock the Catholic Church are left clinging to the words of a book that was compiled and crafted by that very same "mockable" institution! Matisse ~ I do realize that we do have the RCC to thank for the preservation of the Bible that we hold sacred today. However, the practices and beliefs of the early Christians were different in many respects from the organized church of the 4th century. It was the Council of Nicea where all the basic doctrine of the church was drafted and passed down afterward. However, the Popes were permitted to add their own traditions, edicts, and interpretation of things to their beliefs that eventually resulted in the Catholic Church teachings today being so different from the Protestant version, especially in the adoration of Mary and elevation of her status along with the celibate priesthood and sisterhood.
I also agree with your observation of Catholics and their ability to laugh at their own church. I have family and friends who do the same, but they are not among the faithful who show up regularly for Mass every week either. They are the occasional ones that show up at different times during the year as expected and maybe for confession when the mood hits. However, most of the Catholics I know have very little knowledge of the Bible apart from what they learn in catechism when young. But, perhaps the same can be said of some Christians today who also have little knowledge of what's really contained within the Bible other than what they hear preached in sermons. it was after I left the 2x2's and years later in life that I actually began researching the Bible contents as a whole myself and studying more thoroughly its contents. Some of the things I have learned from doing so, I tend to share on this Board or other sites of interest.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 19, 2014 22:16:30 GMT -5
Oddly enough, my experience with Catholics has been that they make more fun of the Church than Protestants do. Not all of them of course, but for run of the mill Catholics practicing Catholics the most important thing is to just show up and confess your sins. Catholics seem to take less personal responsibility for the failings of their church than do protestants. Of course, my experience with Catholics has mostly been in Canada. I went to a Catholic University where one of the medical school programs was the development of spray-on condoms. I don't think Notre Dame would allow it. I admire the ability to poke fun at oneself! What is ironic to me is that at the end of the day, the Bible-believing protestants who mock the Catholic Church are left clinging to the words of a book that was compiled and crafted by that very same "mockable" institution! I'm like you -- the supreme irony is that so many non-Catholics claim the Bible to be theirs, not the Catholics'. Martin Luther didn't help the situation much because it was he who popularized the "protestant" slogan of sola scriptura. The fact is, the scripture he was referring to was the Roman Church's scripture. Protestantism today is basically a fundamentalist form of Catholicism complete with its Pagan theology. Of course, the humor is more politically motivated than anything else. Like one political party laughing at the other political party. I can appreciate such humor for the wit of the telling, but humor for the sake of mocking serves a different purpose. I wonder how many of us have played the game "Underneath the Bed Sheets" as a child. You say the name of a hymn in the hymn book and follow it with "underneath the bed sheets." e.g. Where thou leadest I will follow underneath the bed sheets.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 19, 2014 22:36:57 GMT -5
I admire the ability to poke fun at oneself! What is ironic to me is that at the end of the day, the Bible-believing protestants who mock the Catholic Church are left clinging to the words of a book that was compiled and crafted by that very same "mockable" institution! Matisse ~ I do realize that we do have the RCC to thank for the preservation of the Bible that we hold sacred today. However, the practices and beliefs of the early Christians were different in many respects from the organized church of the 4th century. It was the Council of Nicea where all the basic doctrine of the church was drafted and passed down afterward. However, the Popes were permitted to add their own traditions, edicts, and interpretation of things to their beliefs that eventually resulted in the Catholic Church teachings today being so different from the Protestant version, especially in the adoration of Mary and elevation of her status along with the celibate priesthood and sisterhood. Actually the First Council of Nicaea was convened by Emperor Constantine the Great in 325.
Emperor Constantine basically told them to get together & decide what to believe because he was tired of their squabbling. from wiki"This synod had been charged with investigation of the trouble brought about by the Arian controversy in the Greek-speaking east.[14] To most bishops, the teachings of Arius were heretical and dangerous to the salvation of souls.[15] In the summer of 325, the bishops of all provinces were summoned to Nicaea, a place reasonably accessible to many delegates, particularly those of Asia Minor, Georgia, Armenia, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Greece, and Thrace.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 23:04:26 GMT -5
Be careful of saying the Catholics "assembled the bible" Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Fact is the Gospels and Epistles were widely circulated for centuries before the "Catholic Church" existed. And even in the second Century most sensible people could tell the difference between genuine Gospel like, ie Luke, and fake gospel like, ie Infancy gospel of Thomas.
What do DO know to be authentic Catholic belief is that Mary was born of an "immaculate conception", lived a "perfect" life, didn't actually have Jesus' brothers and sisters, didn't even die and sits at the right hand of Christ in heaven. An alternative to Jesus, in fact.
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Post by matisse on Sept 20, 2014 5:46:20 GMT -5
I admire the ability to poke fun at oneself! What is ironic to me is that at the end of the day, the Bible-believing protestants who mock the Catholic Church are left clinging to the words of a book that was compiled and crafted by that very same "mockable" institution! I'm like you -- the supreme irony is that so many non-Catholics claim the Bible to be theirs, not the Catholics'. Martin Luther didn't help the situation much because it was he who popularized the "protestant" slogan of sola scriptura. The fact is, the scripture he was referring to was the Roman Church's scripture. Protestantism today is basically a fundamentalist form of Catholicism complete with its Pagan theology. Of course, the humor is more politically motivated than anything else. Like one political party laughing at the other political party. I can appreciate such humor for the wit of the telling, but humor for the sake of mocking serves a different purpose. I wonder how many of us have played the game "Underneath the Bed Sheets" as a child. You say the name of a hymn in the hymn book and follow it with "underneath the bed sheets." e.g. Where thou leadest I will follow underneath the bed sheets. The extra-scriptural sola scriptura has always been a head scratcher for me! Never heard of the bed sheets game with hymns...there is a similar game using the fortunes from fortune cookies.
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