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Post by faune on Sept 15, 2014 20:07:42 GMT -5
This question has come up in discussion often on this Board in the past. In fact, today I found this article that really addresses this subject in true form. I would appreciate your comments after reviewing what is shared here for discussion. For more details relating to this topic, I would also suggest you check out the posts found on this other thread of mine, entitled "Proof of Jesus Existence from Sacred Text," especially noting the last addition of comments on Page 12, with excerpts from this article for consideration. Now who will be the first to respond?
www.letusreason.org/trin23.htm Did Jesus Identify Himself as God?
professing.proboards.com/thread/21027/proof-jesus-existence-sacred-texts?page=12
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Post by Mary on Sept 16, 2014 3:03:43 GMT -5
Nathan did a good post on the I Am GOD thread that answers some of these questions.
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Post by faune on Sept 16, 2014 11:51:22 GMT -5
Nathan did a good post on the I Am GOD thread that answers some of these questions. Thanks, Mary... You brought out many good points too. Faune, I copied some of the thoughts from your post on the same subject. We can never get tired to discuss the Deity of Christ. We learn NEW things about Our Lord God Savior every time we share what we have learned.~~ John 8:58 Is Jesus claiming to be God or just pre-existent?Jesus said to the Jews, "I will tell you the truth.... Before Abraham was born, I am!" some misunderstanding this verse to mean that Jesus was just claiming preexistence before Abraham. The context, however, shows that Jesus was pointing not only to his preexistence before Abraham but also to His Eternally! After all, the term I am! points back to God's name in Exodus 3:14 a name that conveys the idea of Eternal self-existence. Yahweh (the I AM that I AM) never came into being at a point in time, for He has always existed. To know Yahweh is to know the Eternal one.All of this adds tremendous significance to Jesus' encounter with the Jews. Knowing how much they venerated Abraham, Jesus in John 8:58 deliberately contrasted the creation origin of Abraham with His own Eternal, uncreated nature. He was simply showing that He was pre-existent and thus older than Abraham, but that His preexistence is of a different kind than Abraham's. In other words, Abraham's existence was created and finite, beginning at a point in time, but Christ's existence NEVER began, is uncreated and infinite, and is therefore ETERNAL. God the Father, Christ/the Son are distinct Persons within the unity of the ONE God. (John 3:16,17; 7:29; 8:55; 10:15;11:41,42) God is a spirit (John 4:24), and a spirit does not have flesh and bones. (Luke 24:39). John's Gospel makes it clear that Jesus' mission was to reveal the Father to mankind: "No man has ever seen God (the Father) but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." (John 1:18)/ That's why Jesus could say that when a man looks at Jesus, "he sees the one (the Father) who sent me" (John 12:45). And that's why Jesus could affirm, "Whosoever accepts me accepts Him (the Father) who sent me" (John 13:20). Faune posted: To make the point again in his conversation, “Before Abraham was “I Am” (Jn. 8:58). He is saying “Yahweh is my name.” He is not saying that he existed from or before Abrahams time. Jesus has made a definitive statement that before Abraham came into existence or was born He (Jesus) was there. I have existed before all ages, before anything was created. It speaks of an eternal existence without respect to time of which only God can exist. Psalm 90:2: "From everlasting to everlasting thou art God." “John 8:58: Before Abraham was brought into being, I exist. The statement, therefore, is not that Christ came into existence before Abraham did-as Arians affirm is the meaning: it is that he never came into being at all, but existed before Abraham had a being; which, of course, was as much as to say that He existed before all creation, or from eternity, as in John 1:1 (from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary.) Hence, Abraham "came into being, or was born" genesthai (NT:1086). Jesus' life was from and to eternity. Hence, the formula for "absolute, timeless" existence, "I am" egoo (NT:1455) eimi (NT:1491) (from Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament) “I am egoo (NT:1455) eimi (NT:1491). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesthai (NT:1086) (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (NT:1491) (timeless being) is complete. (from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament) We can only come to the conclusion that the “I AM” statements of Jesus were intentional, communicating what they were familiar with from Old Testament teachings and practices to prove the deity of Jesus the Christ to those who could hear his spiritual speech. Mark 13:6: "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and will deceive many.” (I am he, “he” is not in the original.) Luke 21:8-9 adds, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.” Before the real I AM returns He warns many will impersonate him. Mt. 24:5: "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.” If one puts all these warning statements together we learn several things. First that he is taking the name God gave Moses and applying it to himself. Second that to claim to be Christ is the same as claiming to be I am, God. I AM is his name forever (Heb. Hayah ashur hayah, Gr. ego eimei; Exod. 3:14-15 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.” Nathan ~ Yes, the points shared by that website really made me take notice of certain verses that had escaped me before. I feel this article presented in my opening paragraph is a good one in support of God's existence and His creative power within the universe.
Sometimes I feel we can be so familiar with scripture that we overlook the obvious before our very eyes, like I discovered recently in the temptation account in the wilderness before Jesus began his ministry found in Matthew 4:1-11. I noticed that the verses Jesus picked from the Old Testament was descriptive of Himself and he used those verses in addressing Satan's temptations. It also reminded me of Job 1 and the exchange of words between God and Satan when discussing the integrity of his servant, Job. In fact, this was the New Testament version of the same thing between the two powers of good and evil, just before Jesus began His ministry.
biblehub.com/matthew/4-1.htm
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+1
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 11:54:56 GMT -5
Thanks, Mary... You brought out many good points too. Faune, I copied some of the thoughts from your post on the same subject. We can never get tired to discuss the Deity of Christ. We learn NEW things about Our Lord God Savior every time we share what we have learned.~~ John 8:58 Is Jesus claiming to be God or just pre-existent?Jesus said to the Jews, "I will tell you the truth.... Before Abraham was born, I am!" some misunderstanding this verse to mean that Jesus was just claiming preexistence before Abraham. The context, however, shows that Jesus was pointing not only to his preexistence before Abraham but also to His Eternally! After all, the term I am! points back to God's name in Exodus 3:14 a name that conveys the idea of Eternal self-existence. Yahweh (the I AM that I AM) never came into being at a point in time, for He has always existed. To know Yahweh is to know the Eternal one.All of this adds tremendous significance to Jesus' encounter with the Jews. Knowing how much they venerated Abraham, Jesus in John 8:58 deliberately contrasted the creation origin of Abraham with His own Eternal, uncreated nature. He was simply showing that He was pre-existent and thus older than Abraham, but that His preexistence is of a different kind than Abraham's. In other words, Abraham's existence was created and finite, beginning at a point in time, but Christ's existence NEVER began, is uncreated and infinite, and is therefore ETERNAL. God the Father, Christ/the Son are distinct Persons within the unity of the ONE God. (John 3:16,17; 7:29; 8:55; 10:15;11:41,42) God is a spirit (John 4:24), and a spirit does not have flesh and bones. (Luke 24:39). John's Gospel makes it clear that Jesus' mission was to reveal the Father to mankind: "No man has ever seen God (the Father) but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." (John 1:18)/ That's why Jesus could say that when a man looks at Jesus, "he sees the one (the Father) who sent me" (John 12:45). And that's why Jesus could affirm, "Whosoever accepts me accepts Him (the Father) who sent me" (John 13:20). Faune posted: To make the point again in his conversation, “Before Abraham was “I Am” (Jn. 8:58). He is saying “Yahweh is my name.” He is not saying that he existed from or before Abrahams time. Jesus has made a definitive statement that before Abraham came into existence or was born He (Jesus) was there. I have existed before all ages, before anything was created. It speaks of an eternal existence without respect to time of which only God can exist. Psalm 90:2: "From everlasting to everlasting thou art God." “John 8:58: Before Abraham was brought into being, I exist. The statement, therefore, is not that Christ came into existence before Abraham did-as Arians affirm is the meaning: it is that he never came into being at all, but existed before Abraham had a being; which, of course, was as much as to say that He existed before all creation, or from eternity, as in John 1:1 (from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary.) Hence, Abraham "came into being, or was born" genesthai (NT:1086). Jesus' life was from and to eternity. Hence, the formula for "absolute, timeless" existence, "I am" egoo (NT:1455) eimi (NT:1491) (from Vincent's Word Studies of the New Testament) “I am egoo (NT:1455) eimi (NT:1491). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesthai (NT:1086) (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (NT:1491) (timeless being) is complete. (from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament) We can only come to the conclusion that the “I AM” statements of Jesus were intentional, communicating what they were familiar with from Old Testament teachings and practices to prove the deity of Jesus the Christ to those who could hear his spiritual speech. Mark 13:6: "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and will deceive many.” (I am he, “he” is not in the original.) Luke 21:8-9 adds, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.” Before the real I AM returns He warns many will impersonate him. Mt. 24:5: "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.” If one puts all these warning statements together we learn several things. First that he is taking the name God gave Moses and applying it to himself. Second that to claim to be Christ is the same as claiming to be I am, God. I AM is his name forever (Heb. Hayah ashur hayah, Gr. ego eimei; Exod. 3:14-15 God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." 'The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.” Nathan ~ Yes, the points shared by that website really made me take notice of certain verses that had escaped me before. I feel this article presented in my opening paragraph is a good one in support of God's existence and His creative power within the universe.
Sometimes I feel we can be so familiar with scripture that we overlook the obvious before our very eyes, like I discovered recently for myself in the temptation story in the wilderness before Jesus began his ministry.
yes i get the "i can't see the forest for all of the trees in the way" thing...
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Post by faune on Sept 16, 2014 12:09:30 GMT -5
Wally ~ I'm beginning to wonder if certain things don't become obvious to us until we are ready to receive it? I'm reminded of these familiar Bible verses in Matthew 7:7-8 in relation to this fact as I ponder this today. I guess we have to be in a receptive mood and open to enlightenment before the scales begin to fall from our eyes due to our own preconceptions, huh?
biblehub.com/matthew/7-7.htm
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Post by faune on Sept 16, 2014 12:51:01 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Sept 16, 2014 13:10:04 GMT -5
I enjoyed that answer given by Billy Graham as to why Jesus stayed around for 40 days after his resurrection. Now, that makes sense to me in light of how fast Christianity spread after his ascension and the early outpouring of the Holy Spirit found in Acts 2. When you consider that about 3,000 souls were added to the Christian fellowship after Peter's sermon, that speaks for itself of the power of the Holy Spirit to change lives, don't you think?
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+2
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Post by faune on Sept 17, 2014 0:25:05 GMT -5
Before I retire for the night, I want to offer one more article with a number of historical references contained within its contents that not only provides historical evidence for Jesus existence, but also support for the fact that early Christians regarded him as the Messiah or the anointed one and also worshiped him as God in the flesh; and, this was fact during the beginning of the second century (112 A.D.) and not the 4th century, as some would like to claim today. www.denisonforum.org/why-jesus Who is Jesus?
The most important question in human history is the one Jesus asked his followers 20 centuries ago: "Who do you say I am?" (Matthew 16:15). Muslims believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, ascended to heaven and will return to our planet at the end of history--but they do not believe that he was divine. Many Buddhists and Hindus view him as an enlightened teacher. Many Jews see him as a brilliant rabbi. How did Jesus see himself?
In recent years many people have claimed that Jesus saw himself only as a religious teacher, and that the Church deified him over the centuries. Not according to the eyewitnesses. When Jesus stood on trial for his life, the high priest challenged him: "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God" (Matthew 26:63). His answer sealed his fate: "Yes, it is as you say" (v. 64). Earlier he told his opponents, "Before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58). He clearly claimed to be God. Jesus told his enemies, "'My Father is always at work to this very day, and I, too, am working.' For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:17-18). Later he taught his disciples, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6). C. S. Lewis was one of the most brilliant men of the 20th century. A converted atheist, he later wrote these words about Jesus:I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg--or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to (Mere Christianity [New York: Macmillan, 1943] 55-6). Jesus' first followers accepted his claim to be God. Peter and the other apostles refused to stop preaching that Jesus is Lord, even when threatened with their lives (cf. Acts 5:29-32). Each disciple except John was martyred for his faith in Christ, and John was exiled to the prison island of Patmos for preaching that Jesus is God. Billions of people across twenty centuries have believed that Jesus is the only way to heaven, for he is our Savior and Lord. Did Jesus exist?
The Bible says that Jesus existed and that he is the Son of God. But the Qur'an says that he is no more than a man. Buddhist and Hindu writings support their non-Christian beliefs. Nearly all faiths have a book which claims that their religion is true. If we did not have the New Testament, what could we learn about Jesus? First, let's look at the early non-Christian historical records: Thallus the Samaritan (A.D. 52) wrote a work tracing the history of Greece from the Trojan War to his own day. In it he attempts to explain the darkness of the crucifixion of Jesus as an eclipse of the sun. This is the earliest non-Christian reference to Jesus' existence and death. Mara bar Serapion (writing after A.D. 70, as he describes the Fall of Jerusalem) adds: "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished." His letter is on display in the British Museum today. It shows that the first Christians saw Jesus not just as a religious teacher, but as their King. The Roman historian Suetonius (AD 65-135) later records, "Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief" (Nero 16.2). Note that the Empire would not punish people who followed a religious teacher, only one who made him Lord in place of Caesar. Tacitus (AD 55-120) was the greatest ancient Roman historian. Around AD 115 he writes, "Christus . . . suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition broke out" (Annals XV.44). His description of Christian belief as "superstition" makes clear the fact that Tacitus considered the followers of Christus to believe something supernatural or miraculous, not simply that he was a great human teacher. Pliny the Younger was a Roman administrator and author, governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor; two volumes of his letters are extant today. The tenth of his correspondence books (written ca. AD 112) contains the earliest non-biblical description of Christian worship: "They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ as to a god." Note that believers worshiped Christ as God in AD 112, not centuries later after their beliefs "evolved," as some critics claim.Flavius Josephus, the noted Jewish historian (AD 37/38-97), records: "Ananias called a Sanhedrin together, brought before it James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others . . . and he caused them to be stoned" (Antiquities 20.9.1). Thus the Christians called Jesus the Christ, the Messiah. Finally, consider Josephus' most famous statement about Jesus (Antiquities 18.3.3): "Now, there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works,--a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." While most historians do not believe that this paragraph represents Josephus's own faith commitment, it does document the beliefs of the earliest Christians regarding Jesus. Note that it was written before the end of the first century.
Now, let's consider early Christian beliefs, all recorded in the first generations following Jesus' earthly ministry. The Didache, written before AD 100, repeatedly calls Jesus "the Lord." It ends thus: "The Lord shall come and all his saints with him. Then shall the world 'see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven'" (16.7-8). Clement of Rome, writing in AD 95, repeatedly refers to the "Lord Jesus Christ." And he promises a "future resurrection" on the basis of his "raising the Lord Jesus Christ from the dead" (24.1). Ignatius, writing between AD 110 and 115, refers to "Jesus Christ our God" (introduction to his letter to the Ephesians). To the Smyrnaeans he adds, "I give glory to Jesus Christ, the God who has thus given you wisdom" (1.1). Justin the Martyr (ca. AD 150), repeatedly refers to Jesus as the Son of God (cf. Apol. 22). He describes the fact that God raised him from the dead and brought him to heaven (Apol. 45).
These statements were all made about Jesus generations before the Church supposedly deified him. The first enemies of Christianity tried to dismiss his divinity, but no one ever denied that he existed. There can be no historical question that Jesus lived, and that his first followers worshiped him as their God and Lord. Is Jesus really God?
After Good Friday, Jesus' disciples assumed their leader was dead and gone. After Easter Sunday, they were transformed and began winning the world to Jesus. The resurrection changed their lives, proving that Jesus really was and is God. The Bible teaches that Jesus' resurrection is the foundation of the Christian faith:
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead" (1 Corinthians 15:13-15). Is there objective evidence that Jesus rose from the dead? David Hume was an 18th-century Scottish philosopher, known today as the "Father of Skepticism." He made it his life's work to debunk assumptions which he considered to be unprovable, among them the veracity of miracles. He argued for six criteria by which we should judge those who claim to have witnessed a miracle. They should be: Numerous Intelligent Educated Of unquestioned integrity Willing to undergo severe loss if proven wrong Their claims should be capable of easy validation (An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding [LaSalle, Illinois: Open Court, 1966] 128-9). How do those who claimed to see the risen Christ stack up by these standards? They were numerous: over 500 saw the resurrected Lord (1 Corinthians 15:6). They were intelligent and well-educated, as the literature they produced makes clear (the Acts 4:13 claim that they were "unschooled, ordinary men" meant only that they had not attended rabbinic schools). Paul was trained by Gamaliel, the finest scholar in Judaism (Acts 22:3). They were men and women of unquestioned integrity, clearly willing to undergo severe loss, as proven by their martyrdoms. And their claims were easily validated, as witnessed by the empty tomb (cf. Acts 26:26, "this thing was not done in a corner").
So the witnesses were credible. But is there objective evidence for their claims? It is a fact of history that Jesus of Nazareth was crucified and buried, and that on the third day his tomb was found empty. Skeptics have tried to explain the empty tomb ever since.
The earliest explanation was that while the soldiers guarding his tomb slept, the disciples stole the body of Jesus (Matthew 28:11-15). But how would sleeping guards know the identity of the thieves? How could the disciples convince 500 people that the corpse they stole was alive? And why would these disciples then die for what they knew to be a lie? A second approach claims that the women stole the body. But how would they overpower the guards? How would they make a corpse look alive? Why would they suffer and die for such a fabrication? A third explanation is that the authorities stole the body. Then, when the misguided disciples found an empty tomb, they announced a risen Lord. But why would the authorities steal the body they had stationed guards to watch? And when the Christians began preaching the resurrection, wouldn't they quickly produce the corpse? A fourth approach is the wrong tomb theory--the grief-stricken women and apostles went to the wrong tomb, found it empty, and began announcing that Jesus had risen from the grave. But the women saw where he was buried (Matthew 27:61); Joseph of Arimathea would have corrected the error (Matthew 27:57-61); and the authorities would have gone to the correct tomb and produced the corpse. A fifth explanation is the "swoon theory." According to this view, Jesus did not actually die on the cross. He or his followers bribed the medical examiner to pronounce him dead, then he revived in the tomb and appeared to be resurrected. But how did he survive burial clothes which would have suffocated him? How did he shove aside the stone and overpower the guards? How did he appear through walls (John 20:19, 26) and ascend to heaven (Acts 1:9)? There is only one reasonable explanation for the empty tomb, the changed lives of the disciples, and the overnight explosion of the Christian movement upon the world stage: Jesus Christ rose from the dead. He is therefore the person he claimed to be: our Lord and God. He was justified in making the most stupendous claim in human history, one no one else has made in all of recorded history: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me" (Matthew 28:18). The resurrection shows us that Jesus is God and Lord.
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Post by faune on Sept 18, 2014 14:44:09 GMT -5
I really enjoyed these biblical references to the resurrection of Jesus, nevertheless. Along with the list of Jesus' followers is a long list of hostile witnesses to Jesus' existence recorded in history, too. This excerpt is taken from this link in references to this "great cloud of witnesses" left on record regarding Jesus' life along with his resurrection appearances. www.str.org/articles/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible#.VBswsE10xjp
Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible?
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Post by faune on Sept 18, 2014 15:10:59 GMT -5
Hi Faune, I just want to say I really appreciate all of the hard work you have done to inform us with your studies. I enjoy reading your finding and post some of the information on my message board. Keep up the good work, sis. . Nathan ~ Thanks for your vote of confidence! As I research things for myself, I also like to share my findings with others to get their input on what I'm discovering. It makes study of scriptures so much more fascinating when we "brainstorm" these findings with others and get to glean from their input, too.
It's also comforting to know that other believers share in our quest for knowledge regarding Jesus and his life and ministry. I honestly believe that our faith is not based upon a solid foundation until we actually embark on an exercise to prove to ourselves that our faith is based on tangible proofs regarding Jesus, and it's not just some Christian myth that others would have us believe and are comfortable entertaining.
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Post by faune on Sept 18, 2014 16:38:23 GMT -5
In addition, here's another point that was brought up by DMG on my other thread regarding "Proof of Jesus Existence from Sacred Texts" and which I responded to below:
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Post by faune on Sept 14, 2015 0:59:00 GMT -5
Wally ~ I'm beginning to wonder if certain things don't become obvious to us until we are ready to receive it? I'm reminded of these familiar Bible verses in Matthew 7:7-8 in relation to this fact as I ponder this today. I guess we have to be in a receptive mood and open to enlightenment before the scales begin to fall from our eyes due to our own preconceptions, huh?
biblehub.com/matthew/7-7.htm
I was just thinking today about how thing tend to open us to us when we are at a point in our life where we can embrace the truth as well as change. I found this old thread of mine from a year ago where the same thoughts are expressed. Perhaps I'm about to learn something new that will open my eyes to new truths?
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