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Post by placid-void on Sept 16, 2014 15:51:13 GMT -5
Hi Yknot, I understand what you are saying, nobody is perfect and we all have flaws, did I set my standards for the workers too high? Probably. However, given what the workers (and especially overseers) purport to be (representing God, the mouthpiece of God, etc.) yes, I hold them to a higher standard. First, due to their own words in claiming to be God's only true servants (surely they of all people would be of very good character?), and second, from the words of scripture: Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. ... (1 Tim 3). I don't think I expected perfection. But even if I did set my standards too high, their behaviour failed a lot lower benchmark. It would be fair to expect at least some level of integrity. To be told to my face (as a 20 yr old) that they would lie about me and it would be my word against theirs - I would only expect this behaviour from the most dishonest of men. I cannot think of anyone else I know who has exhibited anything like this low level of behaviour. Yes, people lose their temper, say things they shouldn't, make mistakes. All very human. This was calculated, deceitful behaviour. I'm not the only one who revered the workers. It was taught and expected. Ironically, it is precisely because most of the friends revere the workers that this behaviour was most effective. Who would ever believe me over them? They knew this, and hence its power. Good afternoon elizabethcoleman, sorry I was unable to respond yesterday. This thread has taken a turn in a new direction so I will not belabor a point. I just want to say that I grasp and support every word in your post, above. It all makes eminent sense to me. You describe experiences that would be held indefensible in any setting: home, school, workplace or religious institution. Based on my experiences over the years, it is most prudent and appropriate to hold perpetrators completely accountable for their actions, as you have done. I have also been in situations where the actions of a few revealed (or at least suggested) a more systemic problem in the social group with which those individuals were associated. Again, it is most prudent to separate oneself, not only from the individual(s) but also the group. It appears that this too, is a step that you have taken. The one thing I try to avoid, however, is the impulse to tar everyone associated with the bad actors with the same brush. It has been my experience that most folks are good and thoughtful, try to live up to values similar to my own, and do the best they can. Perhaps I too am naïve but I think there are more good people trying to do the right thing than there are scoundrels trying to get over on others. I am fortunate enough to have a pocket full of memories of good friends and good workers who met most of the admonitions you reference (1 Tim 3) {to the best of my ability to know}. I am inclined to hold on to those memories and remember those individuals as good and kind folk. I can conceive of no value in branding all with the taint of a few.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 16:12:37 GMT -5
" However, there is also great danger in "not submitting" and in taking a rebel attitude when the situation doesn't warrant taking that extreme position in God's mind"
How can anybody knows what is in God's mind? Who can read God's mind? God's thoughts are not our thoughts, God's ways are not our ways, and as the Heavens are higher than the earth, so it is that's God's thoughts and God's ways are higher than ours. We assume too much when we think that we know and can determine God's thoughts. Well, that is my opinion, anyway.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 16, 2014 17:08:47 GMT -5
I think the subject of submission has been used as a form of control. Submission is supposed to be submission with love and should be respected not abused and turned to control the one submitting in love. When you submit in love you become vulnerable. Its also a 2 way thing.
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Post by mdm on Sept 17, 2014 12:18:55 GMT -5
" However, there is also great danger in "not submitting" and in taking a rebel attitude when the situation doesn't warrant taking that extreme position in God's mind" How can anybody knows what is in God's mind? Who can read God's mind? God's thoughts are not our thoughts, God's ways are not our ways, and as the Heavens are higher than the earth, so it is that's God's thoughts and God's ways are higher than ours. We assume too much when we think that we know and can determine God's thoughts. Well, that is my opinion, anyway. Dale Shultz didn't come up with this doctrine on his own. All overseers believe they are the "anointed ones." Yes, I heard from two overseers directly that they are the "anointed ones." What have they been "anointed" for? Is it not to lead, teach and make decisions? They see themselves as sort of mediators between God and the rest of the fellowship, and as those who should be obeyed since God has "anointed" them for that place of authority.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 15:50:16 GMT -5
" However, there is also great danger in "not submitting" and in taking a rebel attitude when the situation doesn't warrant taking that extreme position in God's mind" How can anybody knows what is in God's mind? Who can read God's mind? God's thoughts are not our thoughts, God's ways are not our ways, and as the Heavens are higher than the earth, so it is that's God's thoughts and God's ways are higher than ours. We assume too much when we think that we know and can determine God's thoughts. Well, that is my opinion, anyway. Dale Shultz didn't come up with this doctrine on his own. All overseers believe they are the "anointed ones." Yes, I heard from two overseers directly that they are the "anointed ones." What have they been "anointed" for? Is it not to lead, teach and make decisions? They see themselves as sort of mediators between God and the rest of the fellowship, and as those who should be obeyed since God has "anointed" them for that place of authority. Well I don't really know much about that, but reading your post reminds me of the legendary story of King Canute and the waves; he somehow believed that he had had the power to turn back the tide, but he didn't have that power because God had not anoint him with that power; so when he tried to test his power sitting in a chair on the sea shore, the tide came in and knocked him out of his chair even though he had commanded it to go back.
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Post by mdm on Sept 17, 2014 16:32:02 GMT -5
Dale Shultz didn't come up with this doctrine on his own. All overseers believe they are the "anointed ones." Yes, I heard from two overseers directly that they are the "anointed ones." What have they been "anointed" for? Is it not to lead, teach and make decisions? They see themselves as sort of mediators between God and the rest of the fellowship, and as those who should be obeyed since God has "anointed" them for that place of authority. Well I don't really know much about that, but reading your post reminds me of the legendary story of King Canute and the waves; he somehow believed that he had had the power to turn back the tide, but he didn't have that power because God had not anoint him with that power; so when he tried to test his power sitting in a chair on the sea shore, the tide came in and knocked him out of his chair even though he had commanded it to go back. I can believe that you've never heard anything about this anointing (if that's what you are referring to). We didn't either until we started questioning some practices. Those in Alberta didn't either until they started questioning.
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Post by fixit on Sept 17, 2014 17:22:58 GMT -5
Dale Shultz didn't come up with this doctrine on his own. All overseers believe they are the "anointed ones." Yes, I heard from two overseers directly that they are the "anointed ones." What have they been "anointed" for? Is it not to lead, teach and make decisions? They see themselves as sort of mediators between God and the rest of the fellowship, and as those who should be obeyed since God has "anointed" them for that place of authority. Well I don't really know much about that, but reading your post reminds me of the legendary story of King Canute and the waves; he somehow believed that he had had the power to turn back the tide, but he didn't have that power because God had not anoint him with that power; so when he tried to test his power sitting in a chair on the sea shore, the tide came in and knocked him out of his chair even though he had commanded it to go back. This story is a bit murky, but my understanding is that Canute did this as a reproof to his sycophantic courtiers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 17:43:54 GMT -5
Well I don't really know much about that, but reading your post reminds me of the legendary story of King Canute and the waves; he somehow believed that he had had the power to turn back the tide, but he didn't have that power because God had not anoint him with that power; so when he tried to test his power sitting in a chair on the sea shore, the tide came in and knocked him out of his chair even though he had commanded it to go back. I can believe that you've never heard anything about this anointing (if that's what you are referring to). We didn't either until we started questioning some practices. Those in Alberta didn't either until they started questioning. Well you better believe it because it is the truth. I have never ever heard it before, but that does not mean that the report isn't true.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 17:54:05 GMT -5
Well I don't really know much about that, but reading your post reminds me of the legendary story of King Canute and the waves; he somehow believed that he had had the power to turn back the tide, but he didn't have that power because God had not anoint him with that power; so when he tried to test his power sitting in a chair on the sea shore, the tide came in and knocked him out of his chair even though he had commanded it to go back. This story is a bit murky, but my understanding is that Canute did this as a reproof to his sycophantic courtiers. You are probably right about the story being a bit murky, but I wonder why it came to my mind at this time. Anyway Proverbs 3:5 exhorts us to trust in The Lord with all our hearts and lean not to our own understanding.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 17, 2014 17:54:42 GMT -5
Dale Shultz didn't come up with this doctrine on his own. All overseers believe they are the "anointed ones." Yes, I heard from two overseers directly that they are the "anointed ones." What have they been "anointed" for? Is it not to lead, teach and make decisions? They see themselves as sort of mediators between God and the rest of the fellowship, and as those who should be obeyed since God has "anointed" them for that place of authority. Well I don't really know much about that, but reading your post reminds me of the legendary story of King Canute and the waves; he somehow believed that he had had the power to turn back the tide, but he didn't have that power because God had not anoint him with that power; so when he tried to test his power sitting in a chair on the sea shore, the tide came in and knocked him out of his chair even though he had commanded it to go back.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 17, 2014 17:57:03 GMT -5
When you refer to the anointing?<br>I never heard the word nor understood it until I attended another church.<br>I seriously doubt the workers know much the subject.<br>An observation.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 18:36:56 GMT -5
With all due respect to the workers, most, if not all of them are intelligent people; however, they are not formally trained in theology like many of the Pastors and Ministers in "worldly churches" are. It follows therefore that some Pastors and ministers will touch on subjects that the workers will steer clear of. I have on occasions heard workers say that Pastor and Ministers in worldly churches have a good grasp of the scriptures and that they do talk the talk but seldom walk the walk.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 17, 2014 19:43:43 GMT -5
With all due respect to the workers, most, if not all of them are intelligent people; however, they are not formally trained in theology like many of the Pastors and Ministers in "worldly churches" are. It follows therefore that some Pastors and ministers will touch on subjects that the workers will steer clear of. I have on occasions heard workers say that Pastor and Ministers in worldly churches have a good grasp of the scriptures and that they do talk the talk but seldom walk the walk.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 17, 2014 19:50:48 GMT -5
I dont disrespect workers generally I had some wonderful workers in the area i lived as a child who loved my family and loved to visit. They were good fun. Most of them. What I have issue with is not dealing with CSA legally as well as biblicaly. (They follow scripture or say they do)
My life in other churches was starkly different and buildings/money were not the major difference. I discovered a life where hope and faith were magnified. Expectation of the power of prayer and answered prayer. Many things the workers never spoke nor alluded to.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 17, 2014 19:56:35 GMT -5
Fwiw If you show me you have a degree in theology it wont impress me. Character impresses me. The reason is you can be as intelligent and educated, a head filled with knowledge but if your character is questionable..it just dont cut it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 0:45:29 GMT -5
Yep, manners (good character) maketh a man. It is often said that sometimes a highly educated person can turn out to be the biggest fool ever.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 19, 2014 4:58:04 GMT -5
Good afternoon elizabethcoleman, sorry I was unable to respond yesterday. This thread has taken a turn in a new direction so I will not belabor a point. I just want to say that I grasp and support every word in your post, above. It all makes eminent sense to me. You describe experiences that would be held indefensible in any setting: home, school, workplace or religious institution. Based on my experiences over the years, it is most prudent and appropriate to hold perpetrators completely accountable for their actions, as you have done. I have also been in situations where the actions of a few revealed (or at least suggested) a more systemic problem in the social group with which those individuals were associated. Again, it is most prudent to separate oneself, not only from the individual(s) but also the group. It appears that this too, is a step that you have taken. The one thing I try to avoid, however, is the impulse to tar everyone associated with the bad actors with the same brush. It has been my experience that most folks are good and thoughtful, try to live up to values similar to my own, and do the best they can. Perhaps I too am naïve but I think there are more good people trying to do the right thing than there are scoundrels trying to get over on others. I am fortunate enough to have a pocket full of memories of good friends and good workers who met most of the admonitions you reference (1 Tim 3) {to the best of my ability to know}. I am inclined to hold on to those memories and remember those individuals as good and kind folk. I can conceive of no value in branding all with the taint of a few. Hi Yknot, no hurry, I mean, goodness, you might even have a life outside of TMB! I would have to say that the majority of the friends are as you have described, good thoughtful people trying to live up to good values. Unfortunately the 'system' as I call it has taken on a life of its own, laying heavy burdens on people. Ultimately, my greatest issue with the fellowship is that I believe it preaches a false gospel - salvation through a system of obedience to the workers rather than a personal faith in Jesus. This seems to be the pivotal reason why the friends cannot have fellowship with other Christians - they do not understand the main basis of Christian faith. The 'method' of the workers - going out in pairs - has superseded all else, to the cost of the real message - salvation through faith in Jesus alone. The method has become the message, while the real gospel has been lost.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 19, 2014 5:08:09 GMT -5
With all due respect to the workers, most, if not all of them are intelligent people; however, they are not formally trained in theology like many of the Pastors and Ministers in "worldly churches" are. It follows therefore that some Pastors and ministers will touch on subjects that the workers will steer clear of. I have on occasions heard workers say that Pastor and Ministers in worldly churches have a good grasp of the scriptures and that they do talk the talk but seldom walk the walk. The workers seem to have a lot to say about pastors and ministers, but most of it seems to be spoken in ignorance. Personally, every minister and pastor I know lives a life of significant sacrifice and integrity to preach the gospel and provide pastoral care to their congregation. They have a tough job (24/7) and very low pay. Much of the preaching of the workers seemed centred on themselves - their sacrifice, their humbleness, etc, etc. Much more of their preaching is against 'worldly' churches and their pastors and buildings and money. Wouldn't it be great it they stopped just comparing themselves to others, blowing their own trumpet, and preaching Christ instead?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 7:29:07 GMT -5
With all due respect to the workers, most, if not all of them are intelligent people; however, they are not formally trained in theology like many of the Pastors and Ministers in "worldly churches" are. It follows therefore that some Pastors and ministers will touch on subjects that the workers will steer clear of. I have on occasions heard workers say that Pastor and Ministers in worldly churches have a good grasp of the scriptures and that they do talk the talk but seldom walk the walk. The workers seem to have a lot to say about pastors and ministers, but most of it seems to be spoken in ignorance. Personally, every minister and pastor I know lives a life of significant sacrifice and integrity to preach the gospel and provide pastoral care to their congregation. They have a tough job (24/7) and very low pay. Much of the preaching of the workers seemed centred on themselves - their sacrifice, their humbleness, etc, etc. Much more of their preaching is against 'worldly' churches and their pastors and buildings and money. Wouldn't it be great it they stopped just comparing themselves to others, blowing their own trumpet, and preaching Christ instead? But isn't that part of human nature , and in particular, competitive human nature.? Whether it be in the field of business, education, religion, whatever; everyone tries to run down their rivals/competitors' products and try to promote their own products/systems . Sort of : "ours is better than theirs, our is right, theirs is wrong" sort of thing. They try very hard to pick holes in their rivals. It is my understanding that Several religious organizations do the same thing: the JW's, the SD Adventists, Mormons, closed Brethren, and others. I agree that they should stop comparing themselves to others, and stop judging others by claiming to be more righteous and superior; that sort of thing smacks of arrogance which is, in my opinion, the opposite of humility. Especially when we are told in scriptures that except we be as humble as a child we shall in no way enter God's Kingdom. Judge not less we be judge accordingly. Many will be called but few will enter, probably because their righteousness does not exceed the righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees. I think that we should all look after our own salvation with fear and trembling in the knowledge that Jesus has promised that where a few are gathered in His name, there He will be in the midst of them, He did not specifically mention any particular religion or fellowship, if that was very important, I believe that He would have made that very clear to His believers/ followers.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 19, 2014 8:43:30 GMT -5
Yes, I remember Jesus' disciples having that competitive edge come out, and being rebuked for it. And yes, there are any number of cultish groups that claim the only right way of doing things, as you mentioned.
Your reminder not to judge others in this context is a good one. I do just have a few comments about some of your other thoughts here - "many called but few enter" - it is actually "many called but few are chosen". I think it is better interpreted "many invited but few chosen". That is a whole topic in itself, but speaks of the work of God, not our work.
When Jesus talked about righteousness needing to exceed that of the scribes and pharisees, I think he was talking about his own righteousness. After all, it is only his righteousness that is our comfort, not our own righteousness. All of our good works are as "filthy rags" in his sight (Isaiah 64:6). See also Romans 3 from verse 10 onwards.
Yes, I completely agree that Jesus can be in the midst of any gathering he chooses, regardless of affiliation or denomination or fellowship.
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Post by faune on Sept 19, 2014 10:23:23 GMT -5
When you refer to the anointing?<br>I never heard the word nor understood it until I attended another church.<br>I seriously doubt the workers know much the subject.<br>An observation. Bubbles ~ They not only speak of themselves as being God's anointed, but also as being Apostles similar to Jesus' disciples. Actually neither one of them apply to their person by definition, but were added for the elevated affect it produces within the 2x2 fellowship. Just check out this excerpt below for what I mean here by this definition of "anointed" and how it is really applied in scripture.
www.letusreason.org/Pent47.htm
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Post by bubbles on Sept 19, 2014 10:36:11 GMT -5
When you refer to the anointing?<br>I never heard the word nor understood it until I attended another church.<br>I seriously doubt the workers know much the subject.<br>An observation. Bubbles ~ They not only speak of themselves as being God's anointed, but also as being Apostles similar to Jesus' disciples. Actually neither one of them apply to their person by definition, but were added for the elevated affect it produces within members in a church body. Just check out this excerpt below for what I mean here
www.letusreason.org/Pent47.htm
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Post by bubbles on Sept 19, 2014 10:39:47 GMT -5
Cant see very well will check at breaky. Ask them to describe the anointing and you will know what I mean. I think the gospel has been grossly diluted and borderline ineffective.
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Post by mdm on Sept 19, 2014 16:52:50 GMT -5
How about: Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. James 5:16Yes, there is more that is mentioned here than just confession. The church needs to provide an environment where it is safe to confess and where prayer and encouragement will be offered. It should be a joint effort, done in love and compassion. But you can't have compassion without confession - which is what overseers' mantra has been: just have compassion, just forgive, but don't expect anybody to confess anything... which version are you using the NIV or the NKJV or some other? the KJV says faults... ESV. Most versions say 'sins,' but some say: 'faults,' 'traspasses,' 'offenses.' hamartia: a sin, failure Definition: missing the mark; hence: (a) guilt, sin, (b) a fault, failure (in an ethical sense), sinful deed. biblehub.com/james/5-16.htm
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Post by bubbles on Sept 19, 2014 18:10:43 GMT -5
Faune As it says all that are born of the spirit of god have the anointing. One of the biggest hindrances to the body is not recognizing that each individual has a place and a function in the kingdom of God. We all need to find our passion. What is your passion? Once you discover that you will also realize you are equip ed for it. (Gifted)
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 20, 2014 14:26:47 GMT -5
Yes, I remember Jesus' disciples having that competitive edge come out, and being rebuked for it. And yes, there are any number of cultish groups that claim the only right way of doing things, as you mentioned. Your reminder not to judge others in this context is a good one. I do just have a few comments about some of your other thoughts here - "many called but few enter" - it is actually "many called but few are chosen". I think it is better interpreted "many invited but few chosen". That is a whole topic in itself, but speaks of the work of God, not our work. When Jesus talked about righteousness needing to exceed that of the scribes and pharisees, I think he was talking about his own righteousness. After all, it is only his righteousness that is our comfort, not our own righteousness. All of our good works are as "filthy rags" in his sight (Isaiah 64:6). See also Romans 3 from verse 10 onwards. Yes, I completely agree that Jesus can be in the midst of any gathering he chooses, regardless of affiliation or denomination or fellowship. Doesn't it strange to people that "God" gave "his only begotten son" Jesus, as a supposed blood sacrifice for the salvation of mankind, yet only "few are chosen?"
Terrible sacrifice for only a few people!
Sounds more like just another carrot on a stick to control people & keep them on on tenterhooks in a state of uneasiness, strain, and suspense, worrying about whether they will be the one of the "chosen."
Sounds no different from any "god" from the world's multitude of "gods" past or present.
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Post by déjà vu on Sept 20, 2014 22:45:48 GMT -5
your quote D.G "Terrible sacrifice for only a few people!" Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a ... biblehub.com/revelation/7-9.htm After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all .... their names are written in the Lamb's book of life; and God and Christ can, and ...
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 20, 2014 23:06:24 GMT -5
your quote D.G "Terrible sacrifice for only a few people!" Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a ... biblehub.com/revelation/7-9.htm After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all .... their names are written in the Lamb's book of life; and God and Christ can, and ... Still says "many called but few are chosen"
Guess it is the one more time the bible contradicts itself!
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