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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2014 4:34:03 GMT -5
My observations reading on this Forum for several years is that when some folks were members of the fellowship it was regarded as a fellowship of love, but once they had left the fellowship, for whatever reason, it has become a fellowship of hate. It is like a marriage gone wrong. Of course this has a lot to do with people's personal experiences within the Fellowship, it also has something to do with people's tolerance for " TRUTH" and what does not constitute "real truth" under scrutiny. It has often been pointed out in the past that the people Within the fellowship are not perfect but that the way is perfect. However we know that Jesus is "the way" and not the "fellowship" so it follows that the Fellowship is not perfect by any means.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 9, 2014 10:11:41 GMT -5
My observations reading on this Forum for several years is that when some folks were members of the fellowship it was regarded as a fellowship of love, but once they had left the fellowship, for whatever reason, it has become a fellowship of hate. It is like a marriage gone wrong. Of course this has a lot to do with people's personal experiences within the Fellowship, it also has something to do with people's tolerance for " TRUTH" and what does not constitute "real truth" under scrutiny. It has often been pointed out in the past that the people Within the fellowship are not perfect but that the way is perfect. However we know that Jesus is "the way" and not the "fellowship" so it follows that the Fellowship is not perfect by any means. Thanks, partaker! It's true to a great extent....I had been advised b an overseer just a short time prior to my final exit from the 2x2s, that I would know them by their fruit! Well, when I exited, I did so not liking the fruits that I had seen myself....however as time went on by I was made aware of fruits by some in the workers and friends that were worse then the fruits that I'd witnessed alone. And strange thing, the worst fruits were revealed by the one who had borne those fruits in their own handwriting! That alone made me have to accept the truth of those negative fruits...Otherwise I'd likely argued that this person would in no way do such a thing! I know that all things will eventually be made known as we are known, and I pray that those who have "fooled" people whether purposefully or not, within the workership that they can repent and know the forgiveness that we all have the right to....... I do not appreciate the fact that some who have really broken the very law of brotherly love many times over and have been made something high up in the echelons of the 2x2 society.....I do not like unfairness, nor underhanded manipulations to obtain or keep one's high positions.....and not to be held responsible for their own actions and pay the penalty others have been made to pay for lesser crimes.
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Post by mdm on Sept 9, 2014 10:34:06 GMT -5
My observations reading on this Forum for several years is that when some folks were members of the fellowship it was regarded as a fellowship of love, but once they had left the fellowship, for whatever reason, it has become a fellowship of hate. It is like a marriage gone wrong. Of course this has a lot to do with people's personal experiences within the Fellowship, it also has something to do with people's tolerance for " TRUTH" and what does not constitute "real truth" under scrutiny. It has often been pointed out in the past that the people Within the fellowship are not perfect but that the way is perfect. However we know that Jesus is "the way" and not the "fellowship" so it follows that the Fellowship is not perfect by any means. I wouldn't say it's a fellowship of hate, but it's a fellowship where "peace, peace!" is proclaimed and only positive things are allowed to be spoken of openly, while negatives are discussed only in private and with the condition of sources not being named and negatives not repeated to others. That's why outwardly and on surface it appears to be a fellowship of love. But when you scratch under the surface and learn about abuse, unchecked power, lack of accountability of those in power to those under them, then you see that love is not all that marks this fellowship. "Marriage gone wrong" sounds right to me. I have said before here that I feel like a wife who after 20 years of "wonderful" marriage has found out that her husband has been leading a double life. If "the people are not perfect, but the way is perfect" AND if "Jesus is the way and not the fellowship," why would I stay in this particular fellowship, when I can find a fellowship where negatives can be discussed openly and without fear and solutions can be sought out, where power is not unchecked and where those in places of authority are held accountable? The problem in this fellowship is that people are held in bondage because they actually believe that the Way IS the fellowship. They know that "Jesus is the way," but believe that without the way which is the fellowship, you cannot have Jesus. Another poster, who professes, has expressed to me his belief that exclusivity is the root of all the problems in the fellowship. I would agree with that.
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Post by emy on Sept 9, 2014 20:41:35 GMT -5
Do you also pray that any out of the workership who have, purposely or not, been deceitful - even exes - can repent and be forgiven?
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Post by bubbles on Sept 9, 2014 21:46:32 GMT -5
Partaker
I concluded a long time ago that workers and friend just dont know how to cope when someone leaves. My loving family didnt. My inlaws didnt. Neither did my sisterinlaw in the work. None of them ever asked me why until 20yrs later after yrs in other church ministry my parents accepted that I was a christian. and were able to have some limited fellowship. My sisterinlaw to this day never brought it up.
Which leads me to think its a'spiritual problem'
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 2:46:00 GMT -5
As I have mentioned previously, no one in the fellowship is perfect, added to that I believe that they are some serious flaws in the fellowship that need to be corrected. Burying heads in the sand will not make things right. We can all learn something to our eternal benefit about love toward each other from the Parable of the Good Samaritan, who did not shun the strangers but came to his assistance through love for a fellow human being. That is what God expected him to do, not discriminate against him by ignoring him. God does not discriminate, He sends the sun on the righteous as well as the unrighteous. We should embrace all believers and share our joy with them from time to time, we are all worldly creatures whenever it boils down to it.
I would just like to add that God is "the righteous judge" who judges the hearts of everyone, and He will be the final judge, not mankind whose reports may be very biased.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 4:16:45 GMT -5
Partaker I concluded a long time ago that workers and friend just dont know how to cope when someone leaves. My loving family didnt. My inlaws didnt. Neither did my sisterinlaw in the work. None of them ever asked me why until 20yrs later after yrs in other church ministry my parents accepted that I was a christian. and were able to have some limited fellowship. My sisterinlaw to this day never brought it up. Which leads me to think its a'spiritual problem' You are probably right, flaws like these need to be corrected sooner rather than later. Victims of such behaviour/treatment can get a feeling of being neglected rather than a feeling of being loved. Shunning tends to make a mockery of " Love Is The Kingdom Banner." The scriptures teach us that we should love one another, even love your enemies as you love yourselves. We all, friends and Workers and Pastors/ Ministers and other believers, come short of the Glory of God. No one should be so self righteous as to set themselves up on a pedestal and think that they are special and will receive special treatment from God, because He will judge our hearts and our motives when making judgment. Nothing is secret from God.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 10, 2014 4:38:10 GMT -5
As I have mentioned previously, no one in the fellowship is perfect, added to that I believe that they are some serious flaws in the fellowship that need to be corrected. Burying heads in the sand will not make things right. We can all learn something to our eternal benefit about love toward each other from the Parable of the Good Samaritan, who did not shun the strangers but came to his assistance through love for a fellow human being. That is what God expected him to do, not discriminate against him by ignoring him. God does not discriminate, He sends the sun on the righteous as well as the unrighteous. We should embrace all believers and share our joy with them from time to time, we are all worldly creatures whenever it boils down to it. I would just like to add that God is "the righteous judge" who judges the hearts of everyone, and He will be the final judge, not mankind whose reports may be very biased. You make a few comments that are typically (in my experience) used as a reason/excuse to explain away behaviour that should not happen towards christians (brothers and sisters in christ) by christian leaders. 1. No one is perfect. True. Love is probably the most powerful emotion and motivation to act. 2. Do not judge. Ive had these 2 comments made to me when I have voiced concern @ CSA a number of times. Im begining to think its because they do not have a more adequate response. When people follow the Call of God. They are following their heart. They live their life through the guidance of the holy spirit and the word of God. It is what they wholeheartedly believe. We are exhorted by scripture to be bold be courageous be kind loving full of faith full of joy. Encouraging. Faithful. Merciful. Enduring. Gentle. All those positive actions that express love towards others. Anyone. We are not encouraged or exhorted to reject,react in anger, hatred,shun anyone. Its not the way Christ treated people.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 10, 2014 4:40:37 GMT -5
Lol looks like were responding at the same time.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 10, 2014 4:44:35 GMT -5
This is where when there is a problem usually leaders would have a meeting discuss pray then act. Sweeping anything under the carpet with strong leaders is not an option. The problems facing workers today? I wouldnt want to be in their shoes.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 10, 2014 4:53:48 GMT -5
The root of the problems are there are some/many workers have NOT made wise decision on how to deal with CSA workers within our fellowship. They believe these CAS workers are harmless because they have repented, so move them to another state or country. They MUST be put out the CSA the ministry ASAP and for good! because it is in theirs nature to repeat the crimes again. They need professional help with the terrible disease, it is wrong to pass their sexual crimes to other innocent children because others had done it to them.
There are many workers teaching false doctrine such as Jesus is NOT God, they don't believe in the Triune God, they don't have a good grasp of Godhead. Most of them believe Jesus is the Son of God and that all there is..... Jesus is the Son of God and he is also God the Son. Triune God is NOT a heresy doctrine or it started by RCC.
Jesus is VERY exclusive with his teachings, faith, and he is a Jealous God. He said " He is NOT gather with me is scattered." He also said, "I am the WAY the Truth and no man comes unto the Father but through me."
Nathan how on earth can anyone think moving a criminal to another state is the answer. That is very disturbing. It compounds the problem and those workers moving them become accomplacies in the crime. They should be taking them to the police.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 10, 2014 10:52:52 GMT -5
Do you also pray that any out of the workership who have, purposely or not, been deceitful - even exes - can repent and be forgiven? Essentially I did say that....or I'm not understanding what you're saying.......
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Post by mdm on Sept 10, 2014 12:03:31 GMT -5
Partaker I concluded a long time ago that workers and friend just dont know how to cope when someone leaves. My loving family didnt. My inlaws didnt. Neither did my sisterinlaw in the work. None of them ever asked me why until 20yrs later after yrs in other church ministry my parents accepted that I was a christian. and were able to have some limited fellowship. My sisterinlaw to this day never brought it up. Which leads me to think its a'spiritual problem' bubbles, it seems to me that this "spiritual problem" is exclusivity and the belief that if you are leaving the meetings it means you are turning your back on God. People can also take it personally - you are not just leaving the meetings, you are "leaving" the people in the meetings as well. It can be seen or felt as personal rejection. I am talking from my own point of view and experience - I don't have any professing family, so it's not the same. But F&W were my family for 16 years in a big way. Now I am going to ramble a little bit: if the outward church stuff (talk about workers, conventions, preps, gospel meetings and such) was your main connection and glue before, once that's taken away, what is left? What do you talk about now? How do you create a new meaningful source of connection? Should a new source of connection be invented so that the relationship can continue? Is it pleasant or laborious? Is it seen as profitable or counterproductive? It's not easy for either side to continue relationship as if nothing has happened. The change has to be acknowledged and talked about. But as you point out, if they don't ask questions, it gives an appearance that they don't want to know the answers and that they are not open to honest conversation. But they may just feel awkward and at loss at how to proceed. Nevertheless, unless this church "divorce" can be talked about openly, having a meaningful sincere relationship would be very difficult.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 10, 2014 15:46:59 GMT -5
[/quote]bubbles, it seems to me that this "spiritual problem" is exclusivity and the belief that if you are leaving the meetings it means you are turning your back on God. People can also take it personally - you are not just leaving the meetings, you are "leaving" the people in the meetings as well. It can be seen or felt as personal rejection. I am talking from my own point of view and experience - I don't have any professing family, so it's not the same. But F&W were my family for 16 years in a big way. Now I am going to ramble a little bit: if the outward church stuff (talk about workers, conventions, preps, gospel meetings and such) was your main connection and glue before, once that's taken away, what is left? What do you talk about now? How do you create a new meaningful source of connection? Should a new source of connection be invented so that the relationship can continue? Is it pleasant or laborious? Is it seen as profitable or counterproductive? It's not easy for either side to continue relationship as if nothing has happened. The change has to be acknowledged and talked about. But as you point out, if they don't ask questions, it gives an appearance that they don't want to know the answers and that they are not open to honest conversation. But they may just feel awkward and at loss at how to proceed. Nevertheless, unless this church "divorce" can be talked about openly, having a meaningful sincere relationship would be very difficult. [/quote]
I agree. Its probably easier to just stay away and allow us to follow the decision we made. What about friendship and yrs of knowing one another closely as friends. I can understand to a point. As for workers with what I know now relating to biblical standards. There is no excuse or scripture to support not approaching someone who is struggling with any issue whether the church, the workers,doctrine or CSA. Anything.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 10, 2014 15:50:26 GMT -5
maja Careful with that word rambling you'll get yourself in the soup.
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Post by rational on Sept 10, 2014 16:06:48 GMT -5
Another poster, who professes, has expressed to me his belief that exclusivity is the root of all the problems in the fellowship. I would agree with that. Don't you think this is a problem with any religion that believes they are exclusive - Christianity or Islam are two religions that come to mind.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 11, 2014 6:14:40 GMT -5
My observations reading on this Forum for several years is that when some folks were members of the fellowship it was regarded as a fellowship of love, but once they had left the fellowship, for whatever reason, it has become a fellowship of hate. It is like a marriage gone wrong. Of course this has a lot to do with people's personal experiences within the Fellowship, it also has something to do with people's tolerance for " TRUTH" and what does not constitute "real truth" under scrutiny. It has often been pointed out in the past that the people Within the fellowship are not perfect but that the way is perfect. However we know that Jesus is "the way" and not the "fellowship" so it follows that the Fellowship is not perfect by any means. Thanks for your comments here, partaker. I think many in the fellowship are very happy and content and enjoy the culture and community that they have across their country and even the world. Many will remain happy and stay there. For many of us who have left, something has happened. Despite warnings against "giving the devil a foothold" and "giving way to fears and doubts", we got to a point where we couldn't keep swallowing the status quo without speaking out, asking, questioning - because we wanted answers about things that had happened. Friends withdrew from us because they quickly became uncomfortable. They didn't want answers, they were happy with the status quo, and wanted to remain that way. They didn't want to entertain any fears and doubts, no matter what the issue was. Continuity in the way with all of its benefits was far more important to them than anything else. They couldn't conceive of life outside the group, and knew they risked this if they spoke out about anything. But also because they didn't necessarily have questions. Nothing in particular had happened to make them want to question. And so the division grew wider and wider. Your analogy of a marriage gone bad is a good one. I guess I have just one question about what you have said above. If you know that Jesus is "the way" and not the fellowship, why can't the friends have fellowship with other Christians who know that Jesus is "the way"?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 7:52:44 GMT -5
Some SAY "Jesus is the way" but they dress like Kim Kardashian, talk like Charlie Sheen and act like Miley Cirus. Jesus apparently IS the way, but not THEIR way.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 9:17:02 GMT -5
My observations reading on this Forum for several years is that when some folks were members of the fellowship it was regarded as a fellowship of love, but once they had left the fellowship, for whatever reason, it has become a fellowship of hate. It is like a marriage gone wrong. Of course this has a lot to do with people's personal experiences within the Fellowship, it also has something to do with people's tolerance for " TRUTH" and what does not constitute "real truth" under scrutiny. It has often been pointed out in the past that the people Within the fellowship are not perfect but that the way is perfect. However we know that Jesus is "the way" and not the "fellowship" so it follows that the Fellowship is not perfect by any means. Thanks for your comments here, partaker. I think many in the fellowship are very happy and content and enjoy the culture and community that they have across their country and even the world. Many will remain happy and stay there. For many of us who have left, something has happened. Despite warnings against "giving the devil a foothold" and "giving way to fears and doubts", we got to a point where we couldn't keep swallowing the status quo without speaking out, asking, questioning - because we wanted answers about things that had happened. Friends withdrew from us because they quickly became uncomfortable. They didn't want answers, they were happy with the status quo, and wanted to remain that way. They didn't want to entertain any fears and doubts, no matter what the issue was. Continuity in the way with all of its benefits was far more important to them than anything else. They couldn't conceive of life outside the group, and knew they risked this if they spoke out about anything. But also because they didn't necessarily have questions. Nothing in particular had happened to make them want to question. And so the division grew wider and wider. Your analogy of a marriage gone bad is a good one. I guess I have just one question about what you have said above. If you know that Jesus is "the way" and not the fellowship, why can't the friends have fellowship with other Christians who know that Jesus is "the way"? k Thanks for your response. As regards your final paragraph I cannot answer your question because I myself ask it many times,I do not agree with the exclusive idea and as a matter of fact if you are not too busy you will see my stance on that matter if you just have a look at the thread "post of the week" some time between 2010 and 2011 or just after that. The post is about "Divided Homes" and was chosen and introduced by Scott Ross as a post of the week. My post there speaks for itself and for me. A believer is a believer and is a brother/sister in Christ. I honestly believe that they are many righteous people in other church fellowships that will go to Heaven because God is a Righteous Judge, but man isn't. Ps The reference to Post of the week is on page 4 and is dated June 3, 2011. - Unequally Yoked.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 9:24:20 GMT -5
Some SAY "Jesus is the way" but they dress like Kim Kardashian, talk like Charlie Sheen and act like Miley Cirus. Jesus apparently IS the way, but not THEIR way. You may very well be right, Bert, but you like many of us judge by outward appearances, and looks can be deceiving, but God looks at the hearts of us all And He is the righteous Judge.
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Post by emy on Sept 11, 2014 13:55:30 GMT -5
Elizabeth, the first sentence of this paragraph is an opinion you can state with certainty. The rest is most likely speculation. I know of other reasons some may become uncomfortable.
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Post by rational on Sept 11, 2014 15:43:20 GMT -5
Friends withdrew from us because they quickly became uncomfortable. They didn't want answers, they were happy with the status quo, and wanted to remain that way. They didn't want to entertain any fears and doubts, no matter what the issue was. Continuity in the way with all of its benefits was far more important to them than anything else. They couldn't conceive of life outside the group, and knew they risked this if they spoke out about anything. But also because they didn't necessarily have questions. Nothing in particular had happened to make them want to question. And so the division grew wider and wider. Your analogy of a marriage gone bad is a good one. I think this is your experience but not universal. Having departed decades ago when it was much less common, my experience was much different. But then I did not question them since what they believed was none of my business just as the reasons why I left was not any of their business. I felt no need to defend my actions. From what you have posted it sounds like you were the one asking questions and trying to reform from without.
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Post by placid-void on Sept 12, 2014 7:44:51 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments here, partaker. I think many in the fellowship are very happy and content and enjoy the culture and community that they have across their country and even the world. Many will remain happy and stay there. For many of us who have left, something has happened. Despite warnings against "giving the devil a foothold" and "giving way to fears and doubts", we got to a point where we couldn't keep swallowing the status quo without speaking out, asking, questioning - because we wanted answers about things that had happened. Friends withdrew from us because they quickly became uncomfortable. They didn't want answers, they were happy with the status quo, and wanted to remain that way. They didn't want to entertain any fears and doubts, no matter what the issue was. Continuity in the way with all of its benefits was far more important to them than anything else. They couldn't conceive of life outside the group, and knew they risked this if they spoke out about anything. But also because they didn't necessarily have questions. Nothing in particular had happened to make them want to question. And so the division grew wider and wider. Your analogy of a marriage gone bad is a good one. I guess I have just one question about what you have said above. If you know that Jesus is "the way" and not the fellowship, why can't the friends have fellowship with other Christians who know that Jesus is "the way"? I have read the above post several times, there is something powerful about the way it is written and the questions raised. One question raised by elizabethcoleman’s comments involves the “value” to be placed on “status quo” versus the “value” that one places on “questioning the status quo”. As a reader, I get the impression that elizabethcoleman puts a higher “value” on questioning than on accepting the status quo but I am not sure that is the author’s intent. But the question goes deeper than that. “Status quo” is a state of affairs defined by context, circumstances and the predisposition of the observer. My wife walks our dogs along a path in the forest at lunchtime every day. She follows the same path, walks the same distance, sits on the same rock at the turn point and returns. Every day, month after month, season after season, year after year. I cannot describe for you the beauty and richness she experiences on every walk. To the best of my knowledge, in all the years she has walked that path, no two experiences have ever been the same. The colors, the flora, the fauna, the sights, the sounds, the smells are different, interesting and exciting every time she goes. I have also walked the same path, sometimes with her, sometimes only with the dogs. For me, it is a nice walk in the woods but I find myself wondering how the dogs might enjoy going beyond the turn-around. I wonder if I might be able to shave 2-3 minutes off my circuit time. I wonder how steep the path is up slide mountain. Et cetra, et cetra, et cetra. At the end of the day, I envy my wife for the contentment she experiences and the richness of her experience. And I wonder. How does one assign value to another person’s experiences?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 8:15:17 GMT -5
How does one assign value to another person's experiences? With much difficulty and inaccuracy I guess. I'll just be contented to say that perhaps there is much truth in the old saying: "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder."
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Post by emy on Sept 12, 2014 14:38:28 GMT -5
A post worthy of Post of the Week, Yknot!
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 13, 2014 6:27:57 GMT -5
Hi Yknot, thanks for your thoughts. I can utterly relate to your example re your wife' walk - I do the same track up a mountain each week, year round, and experience the same tremendous variation. Sometimes it's dark when I set off at the base. Sometimes the sun rises just when I reach the peak. The colour is different every day.
I don't know if I'd place a higher "value" on questioning the status quo, I just know I was suddenly forced to.
To take your analogy further, when I think about my mountain walk (I always do it with a companion), I know that there have been attacks and assaults on this track. Rare, but it happens. Even more rare, large male kangaroos have occasionally launched a vicious attach on unsuspecting runners during mating season. I have only heard about these things, but never experienced them. If, however, I was to one day, God forbid, be the victim of a nasty attack or assault, I could never look at my morning walk the same way again. All the things I currently enjoy about it would be tainted by the context, perhaps never to be fully recovered.
I guess you could say this is what happened with the fellowship. I would like to clarify that I was never attacked, or assaulted by anyone in the fellowship! I enjoyed good relationships and good fellowship with my fellow 2x2s. I could never foresee a day when I wouldn't still be in it. But stuff happened. God stuff, miraculous stuff, discoveries of deception by the workers. When I tried to to talk to the workers about it, things quickly went pear-shaped. I discovered that truth was not important to many of the workers, indeed they eventually told me point blank they would lie if I tried to tell others the truth. To someone who had revered the workers, and thought them above reproach, I was shocked, heartbroken and desperately confused. Not to say all workers are like this. But many have been around long enough to become this way for some reason. They place a far greater premium on preserving "the way" than being interested in truth. That's just the way it is. I went thru 3 years of devastating emotional conflict before I knew there was no choice but to leave. Despite most of my extended family still being in, and despite the years of fellowship I enjoyed there (born & raised), it is all badly tainted, and I can never look at it in the same way again.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 13, 2014 6:45:33 GMT -5
Friends withdrew from us because they quickly became uncomfortable. They didn't want answers, they were happy with the status quo, and wanted to remain that way. They didn't want to entertain any fears and doubts, no matter what the issue was. Continuity in the way with all of its benefits was far more important to them than anything else. They couldn't conceive of life outside the group, and knew they risked this if they spoke out about anything. But also because they didn't necessarily have questions. Nothing in particular had happened to make them want to question. And so the division grew wider and wider. Your analogy of a marriage gone bad is a good one. I think this is your experience but not universal. Having departed decades ago when it was much less common, my experience was much different. But then I did not question them since what they believed was none of my business just as the reasons why I left was not any of their business. I felt no need to defend my actions. From what you have posted it sounds like you were the one asking questions and trying to reform from without. Hi Rational, I'm not sure how many decades ago you departed, but I fit that category too! (2 decades). I'm not sure what you mean by not questioning them "since what they believed was none of my [your] business". I questioned them because I completely believed everything I had been taught and preached at for the previous 2 decades! It had everything to do with being my business. If what they taught - and I believed - was inconsistent and deceptive, I have every reason to ask the questions, because it was my very faith that was at stake. At first I was questioning to try to clarify and maintain my faith. I guess you could say things went downhill from there, as I started to see a very different nature to the workers. Yes, I was the one asking questions, and after all the years spent indoctrinating me and my ancestors (to the fourth generation!), I think I deserved some answers. I've met so many people now who have similar experiences. Perhaps we were the ones who fully bought into everything about the fellowship until something happened that made us question. Perhaps - by your comments - you didn't ever fully buy into it? Do you feel as though may be it didn't affect you as much because of this? Man, I sound like the psychologist with you on the couch! How you do feel about that, Rational?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 13, 2014 6:48:06 GMT -5
Some SAY "Jesus is the way" but they dress like Kim Kardashian, talk like Charlie Sheen and act like Miley Cirus. Jesus apparently IS the way, but not THEIR way. Bert, I can assure you that I have neither the body nor wardrobe of Kim, the vocabulary use of Charlie, and I always wear safety gear near wrecking balls.
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