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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 1, 2014 13:54:56 GMT -5
I heard that John Robinson passed away. His brothers Bruce and Arthur were at his side when he passed on.
John was the Victorian overseer if I remember correctly.
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Post by jhjmr on Sept 1, 2014 14:13:14 GMT -5
O.K. Scott. By your picture, retirement looks good on you!! Looks like a boat ride instead of a bike ride.
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jscc1
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Post by jscc1 on Sept 1, 2014 22:06:43 GMT -5
SADLY HE HAS GONE WITH MUCH COVERUPS AND SECRETS WITH HIM. I KNOW HE HAS NOT GONE TO VICTIMS ASKING FORGIVENESS,BUT THEN AGAIN VICTIMS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE MORE FORGIVING. ALSO HE HAD THE OPPERTUNITY TO REPAIR OTHER CSA ACCUSATIONS OVER MANY YEARS AND DISMISS MANY PERPETRATORS.NOW HIS BROTHER HAS A CHANCE BEFORE GOD TO PUT SO MUCH RIGHT.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 0:14:06 GMT -5
Very sorry to hear of the passing of John. I knew John well, as we had something in common. In our younger days we both trained as Technicians with the PMG. John was a few years ahead of me, but when I went through the school, his name was still about because of his high achievement. He was a very deep thinker, and may have been misunderstood by some people.
Bruce was also a good mate of mine, as we were the same age. He often spent time in our home, school holidays, etc. I will always hold the greatest respect and regard for the Robinson family. Very sincere people.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 5:00:48 GMT -5
SADLY HE HAS GONE WITH MUCH COVERUPS AND SECRETS WITH HIM. I KNOW HE HAS NOT GONE TO VICTIMS ASKING FORGIVENESS,BUT THEN AGAIN VICTIMS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE MORE FORGIVING. ALSO HE HAD THE OPPERTUNITY TO REPAIR OTHER CSA ACCUSATIONS OVER MANY YEARS AND DISMISS MANY PERPETRATORS.NOW HIS BROTHER HAS A CHANCE BEFORE GOD TO PUT SO MUCH RIGHT. Now just imagine Mr. J.Robinson was "tough on CSA." I would expect comments like, "He was tough on CSA but weak on The Trinity." Well, actually it would read "He was weak on the Trinity" or any one of any of the 500 or so other comments I listed here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 20:40:31 GMT -5
Being "weak in the Trinity" means, largely, that you don't believe the entire list of trinities, or that you focus upon one to the detriment of them all. Thus the Catholic Church in particular is weak in the nine Trinities. Are you?
God, Lord and Heavenly Father = Trinity 1 Father, Son and Holy Ghost = Trinity 2 Spirit, Water, and the Blood = Trinity 3 Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost = Trinity 4 The spirit and soul and body = Trinity 5 The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob = Trinity 6 Father, Son and Mary = Muslim Trinity 7 The one, the intellect and the soul = Greek Trinity 8 God, Lord and Heavenly Father = Trinity 9
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 22:00:48 GMT -5
Hey guys, this thread is about John Robinson. Let's keep on topic.
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Post by faune on Sept 5, 2014 23:04:02 GMT -5
Very sorry to hear of the passing of John. I knew John well, as we had something in common. In our younger days we both trained as Technicians with the PMG. John was a few years ahead of me, but when I went through the school, his name was still about because of his high achievement. He was a very deep thinker, and may have been misunderstood by some people. Bruce was also a good mate of mine, as we were the same age. He often spent time in our home, school holidays, etc. I will always hold the greatest respect and regard for the Robinson family. Very sincere people. Redback ~ Great to see you posting again! You have been missed! Can you explain what PMG stands for? Just curious?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 1:09:47 GMT -5
I think the PMG here would mean the old Post Master General office ie postal and telegraphic services.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2014 6:24:01 GMT -5
faune,Bert is spot on, it was the Postmaster Generals Department, run by the Australian Federal Government. We completed 5 years training a lot of the time in PMG schools, and also field training. I started about the time John finished. His name was around on honour boards etc.It could be that he was dux of his year. At the end of our training the top 3% went to Radio, whilst the rest went to Telephony. John was part of that top 3% and worked as a Technician with Radio Australia. John was part of my inspiration, but I never achieved what he did.
I note that there is some criticism of John, that he had a part in coverups. I think that he would have been complying with the culture of the 2x2 church, the same culture that existed in the Catholic church. It was protect the reputation of the church. John was so sincere he would do that. My Mother used to tell us don't do or say anything that would harm "The Truth", or harm "The Way". So I think it is a bit harsh to blame an individual. Blame the culture. The culture may be forced to change, because of the law. Those of us who did not agree have left, if we had of spoke out, we would have been asked to leave.
faune, thank you for your kind words, but life has been busy in other ways. My Wife is right into fibre art, and has a number of exhibitions going. I am the unhired help. I sometimes tell her she is like a cat with diarrhea, and needs 3 cats digging holes, and 3 filling in. I will stick to digging the holes, and let others do the filling in. Also age is catching up with me, so might not be here as often as I would like.
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jscc1
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Post by jscc1 on Sept 7, 2014 22:47:02 GMT -5
Many decades ago........a boy asked his why did you play with my bbottom last night (boy in bed) Dad horrified and saying not me.. Realising who the worker was and the only other one in the house that could have done this.. Yes like so many who accept a celibate life for struggles over their doubts with their sexuallity,that is not a sin as long as they remain loyal to this commitment they must have made to God,staying with it.But it appears so many in 2x2s history are not strong enough with their relationship with the strength the Holy Spirit gives to refrain from falling to their unatural urges. Paedophilia for example is a mental disorder,containable but incurrable.REDBACK-please note,do you know a person with an unatural sexual interest that is not a likeable sociable intellegent person? Your loyalty is NOT a bad thing as you knew him,but some of us do know another side of some very likable personalities,and that side spoils it for others like yourself. WHY on earth would a person such as a Bishop, not seek justice for so many victim"S" just to save the butts of the Irvinite sects ministry? Dont sound to Christ like?
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jscc1
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Post by jscc1 on Sept 7, 2014 22:59:22 GMT -5
HI REDBACK, I may have sounded a bit harsh on you,sorry. As a victim of worker CSA x2,many decades ago, I have listened to every reason us teens would give to avoid the d**es and poofs as we called many members of the unbiblical unatural workers,the list we made at convention time was not small. Some of us related to the horrific experiences, we had experienced.How many are still suffering? Some have not been able to face their suffering anymore,I can understand that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2014 0:17:20 GMT -5
jscc1, are you saying that John committed CSA. I find that very hard to believe. I don't know how well you knew the Robinson family, but I had a lot of contact with them. John's parents often came to our home, and had a meal with us, as they were friends of my Parents. You would not find a more sincere dedicated 2x2 family in Victoria, with four in the work. I am also aware that some people have been wrongly labelled in Victoria, and that is a very sad situation.
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jimmy
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Post by jimmy on Sept 8, 2014 7:23:35 GMT -5
Like redback I would find it very hard to believe John would have condoned, let alone committed, CSA. John was a very genuine individual and although he expected very high standards of the church, he also lived by them himself. Let's not forget that John came to the post of overseer as an elderly man. Hindsight would indicate that there were early signs of cognitive impairment from early days in this role. Almost anyone who had known John for many years will tell you that he changed in personality - a classic sign of dementia and altzhimers. I think it is likely if he "covered" things up it was because he was unable to think through an appropriate course of action. I will remember John as a genuine individual with a very deep understanding of the scriptures. He also had a very dry wit, although was a shy individual who preferred to be in the background than the spotlight. A man sadly missed, a soul returned to God.
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Post by stevnz on Sept 8, 2014 21:56:41 GMT -5
Like redback I would find it very hard to believe John would have condoned, let alone committed, CSA. John was a very genuine individual and although he expected very high standards of the church, he also lived by them himself. Let's not forget that John came to the post of overseer as an elderly man. Hindsight would indicate that there were early signs of cognitive impairment from early days in this role. Almost anyone who had known John for many years will tell you that he changed in personality - a classic sign of dementia and altzhimers. I think it is likely if he "covered" things up it was because he was unable to think through an appropriate course of action. I will remember John as a genuine individual with a very deep understanding of the scriptures. He also had a very dry wit, although was a shy individual who preferred to be in the background than the spotlight. A man sadly missed, a soul returned to God. That raises any important question as to how long an overseer remains in their position, and when/how they get replaced. It seems that the person will remain overseer until they voluntarily hand over to another person chosen by them. It is easy to not recognise the need for change, especially with many workers believing that they should stay in the work until they are absolutely not able to continue. Other workers seem reluctant to arrange for succession until long after it should have happened. Thus people who may have been intelligent, sound, fair, kind, may continue even after their faculties deteriorate due to age or medical conditions. Acts 1 teaches that all believers were involved in a succession decision, and that voting was used to resolve a difference of opinion. Both aspects now seem to be abhorrent to our fellowship.
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Post by fixit on Sept 9, 2014 1:13:59 GMT -5
As they say, this fellowship is not a democracy.
Its more like a theocracy.
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Post by mdm on Sept 9, 2014 10:54:34 GMT -5
jscc1, are you saying that John committed CSA. I find that very hard to believe. I don't know how well you knew the Robinson family, but I had a lot of contact with them. John's parents often came to our home, and had a meal with us, as they were friends of my Parents. You would not find a more sincere dedicated 2x2 family in Victoria, with four in the work. I am also aware that some people have been wrongly labelled in Victoria, and that is a very sad situation. I know nothing about John in question, but 6 years ago all the friends in our state received a letter from our overseer letting us know about the dismissal of 2 workers from the ministry because of CSA allegations. To most of us, I assume, this came as a shock, as we would have never suspected these men of being able to commit such despicable things. Yet, the allegations were too numerous to dismiss and the internet pressure and exposure was too significant in the case of one of the men, so something had to be done. My point is that NOBODY would have suspected these men of being capable of these things based on normal everyday interaction, yet there was strong evidence that they were indeed guilty of these things. It was a shock to many.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 0:27:28 GMT -5
maja, I am aware that paedophiles do not wear a badge to tell you they are one. But my worry is that innocent persons can get labelled by innuendo. Recently I was told that a certain person was a paedophile, because their name was on a paedophile list. It came as a shock to me as I knew the person named. So I checked the list and sure enough the name was there. Same name, but an entirely different person. Yet because of gossip, the innocent person has been labelled a paedophile only because he has the same name as one. Obviously the person that told me had not done their homework, and shot their mouth off, without finding out the facts. When this occurs it is very sad and serious.
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Post by fixit on Sept 10, 2014 2:02:10 GMT -5
jscc1, are you saying that John committed CSA. I find that very hard to believe. I don't know how well you knew the Robinson family, but I had a lot of contact with them. John's parents often came to our home, and had a meal with us, as they were friends of my Parents. You would not find a more sincere dedicated 2x2 family in Victoria, with four in the work. I am also aware that some people have been wrongly labelled in Victoria, and that is a very sad situation. I know nothing about John in question, but 6 years ago all the friends in our state received a letter from our overseer letting us know about the dismissal of 2 workers from the ministry because of CSA allegations. To most of us, I assume, this came as a shock, as we would have never suspected these men of being able to commit such despicable things. Yet, the allegations were too numerous to dismiss and the internet pressure and exposure was too significant in the case of one of the men, so something had to be done. My point is that NOBODY would have suspected these men of being capable of these things based on normal everyday interaction, yet there was strong evidence that they were indeed guilty of these things. It was a shock to many. Here's one victim's story: wingsbts.proboards.com/thread/244Here's a copy of the letter to Texas friends: wingsfortruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/rayhoffman-2pp2.pdf
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jimmy
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Post by jimmy on Sept 10, 2014 7:09:51 GMT -5
I would hope no one disputes the horrific nature of CSA. I am 100% behind any perpetrators of CSA being dealt the full force of the law and entirely separated from any dealings with children in the future. The lasting effects of CSA are extreme and horrific and that must be recognised.
On the other hand, as I believe redback is referring, is the fact that a false accusation of CSA is also an incredibly traumatic experience. This also does have devastating consequences and destroys lives. Like CSA, false reports of CSA are wrong at every level and should never happen... but they do happen. Those spreading a false report should also be made accountable for their actions.
I'm not sure I can think of another issue where facts are so hard to prove and so vitally important. A false step either way has devastating and irreparable consequences. It is vitally important to provide support to those that are victims of CSA. But be very careful that CSA does not become a gossip topic where people are convicted on heresy.
The insinuations levelled towards John by some posts are unfair and I believe unfounded. There is something particularly nasty about defaming the reputation of the deceased.
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Post by mdm on Sept 10, 2014 10:46:04 GMT -5
maja, I am aware that paedophiles do not wear a badge to tell you they are one. But my worry is that innocent persons can get labelled by innuendo. Recently I was told that a certain person was a paedophile, because their name was on a paedophile list. It came as a shock to me as I knew the person named. So I checked the list and sure enough the name was there. Same name, but an entirely different person. Yet because of gossip, the innocent person has been labelled a paedophile only because he has the same name as one. Obviously the person that told me had not done their homework, and shot their mouth off, without finding out the facts. When this occurs it is very sad and serious. I wholeheartedly agree with you. However, I don't think that the example you gave is representative of issues in the fellowship (I'm sure it happens, but it happens in any community/organization regardless of other factors). I have an example that I think is more representative of gossip and rumors as they happen in the fellowship and as a result of the fellowship dynamics. It has to do with one of the men mentioned in our overseer's letter. We've come to find out that some of our local friends were aware of his inappropriate conduct even before he was dismissed from the work and the arrival of the letter. They did not witness the behavior, but heard about it through the grapevine. When they knew that this worker was going to be in their son's city, they decided to "participate in spreading this rumor" by warning their son to be extra vigilant with his kids. This raises several questions in my mind, but the one I want to ask here is: were they wrong to be participating in spreading this rumor - were they simply gossiping or were they justifiably attempting to protect their family in the only way available to them in the fellowship? I believe that the blame for gossip and rumors lies with the ministry and their avoidance of dealing with problems and not necessarily with those who spread rumors. The problem is that the culture of the fellowship is such that dealing with CSA has not been encouraged, and as the result issues are "dealt with" by gossip. If these issues were dealt with openly and if reporting was encouraged, if the workers with known allegations against them were not moved to another country/continent, but reported to authorities and removed from the work, there would be no need for gossip and rumors. Gossip and rumors flourish in an environment of secrecy and avoidance of proper dealing with problems as they arise. Gossip and rumors are plentiful in the fellowship. There are lots of "secrets" available through the grapevine. This will only change when there is transparency and accountability in the ministry, and friends are not discouraged from reporting CSA allegations. This applies to other kinds of abuse as well.
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Post by mdm on Sept 10, 2014 10:54:26 GMT -5
I would hope no one disputes the horrific nature of CSA. I am 100% behind any perpetrators of CSA being dealt the full force of the law and entirely separated from any dealings with children in the future. The lasting effects of CSA are extreme and horrific and that must be recognised. On the other hand, as I believe redback is referring, is the fact that a false accusation of CSA is also an incredibly traumatic experience. This also does have devastating consequences and destroys lives. Like CSA, false reports of CSA are wrong at every level and should never happen... but they do happen. Those spreading a false report should also be made accountable for their actions. I'm not sure I can think of another issue where facts are so hard to prove and so vitally important. A false step either way has devastating and irreparable consequences. It is vitally important to provide support to those that are victims of CSA. But be very careful that CSA does not become a gossip topic where people are convicted on heresy. The insinuations levelled towards John by some posts are unfair and I believe unfounded. There is something particularly nasty about defaming the reputation of the deceased. I agree with you on the horror of CSA and on the horror of false accusations. Please read my answer to redback - I believe that the ministry is to be blamed for creating a fertile ground for gossip and rumors. Proper dealing with CSA issues, drafting child protection guidelines and their implementation would not just protect children from abuse, but would also protect people from being falsely accused and having false rumors spread about them. OK, it wouldn't eradicate these evils, but it would minimize them. Everybody would win and nobody would lose. Why overseers don't see the benefits of these measures is beyond me. Unless a lot of them have something to hide themselves.
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Post by mdm on Sept 10, 2014 11:15:31 GMT -5
I know nothing about John in question, but 6 years ago all the friends in our state received a letter from our overseer letting us know about the dismissal of 2 workers from the ministry because of CSA allegations. To most of us, I assume, this came as a shock, as we would have never suspected these men of being able to commit such despicable things. Yet, the allegations were too numerous to dismiss and the internet pressure and exposure was too significant in the case of one of the men, so something had to be done. My point is that NOBODY would have suspected these men of being capable of these things based on normal everyday interaction, yet there was strong evidence that they were indeed guilty of these things. It was a shock to many. Here's one victim's story: wingsbts.proboards.com/thread/244Here's a copy of the letter to Texas friends: wingsfortruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/rayhoffman-2pp2.pdfThe one that always gets me is the case of Dale Gardener: wingsbts.proboards.com/thread/252/dale-gardner-letters-2008This man pleaded with overseers to deal with alleged abusers, only to be driven out of the fellowship. Since the ministry decided to silence the one speaking and drive him out of the fellowship because of speaking openly about issues, those who were aware of issues and were concerned could only talk about them in secret (spread rumors/gossip?). Question for redback and jimmy: in this and similar situations, who of the following is at fault? a) the man speaking openly about a problem b) those who continue to speak about the problem in secret (since speaking openly is not encouraged or allowed), and do it out of concern for the purity of the ministry, spiritual health of the fellowship, safety of children (I know some of them personally); these could be erroneously seen as gossiping and spreading rumors c) the ministry who demands silence and refuses to deal with problems
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 15:44:18 GMT -5
Answer to maja.
Scott was kind enough to start a thread advising the death of John Robinson. John was a good man, also an overseer in Victoria, Australia. One would have thought that the thread would have been dedicated to tributes about John and that other extraneous comments would not have been made. Out of respect they should be made in a separate thread.
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Post by Admin on Sept 10, 2014 18:15:09 GMT -5
The admin team supports the sentiments stated by redback about this thread. We are not aware of any personal allegations against John Robinson, the former overseer of Victoria, Australia. As the person in charge of a state with serious allegations of CSA going back many years, doubts and issues will arise about the person in charge, over what they knew and what they did about it. Such matters would also have criminal implications.
This particular thread is not the place to discuss those issues.
Thank you for understanding, admin
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Post by magpie on Sept 10, 2014 23:23:03 GMT -5
Is it a crime to knowingly conseal a crime??? If so,then,before GOD??? "What"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2014 23:33:51 GMT -5
I was brought up in an era, not to speak ill of the dead. Sadly times have changed, and that respect has gone. It is regrettable that hatred has taken over. The World needs more people with compassion.
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Post by Mary on Sept 11, 2014 3:52:14 GMT -5
Being "weak in the Trinity" means, largely, that you don't believe the entire list of trinities, or that you focus upon one to the detriment of them all. Thus the Catholic Church in particular is weak in the nine Trinities. Are you? God, Lord and Heavenly Father = Trinity 1 Father, Son and Holy Ghost = Trinity 2 Spirit, Water, and the Blood = Trinity 3 Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost = Trinity 4 The spirit and soul and body = Trinity 5 The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob = Trinity 6 Father, Son and Mary = Muslim Trinity 7 The one, the intellect and the soul = Greek Trinity 8 God, Lord and Heavenly Father = Trinity 9Do you mean like this from a professing person, review005?
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