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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 18:52:16 GMT -5
Judaism is called Monotheistic, but that can't be so because there is a quite a host of heavenly deities, in a hierarchy from God, to the Son to the heavenly angels.... all the way to the devil and his angels.
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Post by Greg on Aug 29, 2014 19:03:56 GMT -5
Plural gods, perhaps
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 29, 2014 22:27:31 GMT -5
Judaism is called Monotheistic, but that can't be so because there is a quite a host of heavenly deities, in a hierarchy from God, to the Son to the heavenly angels.... all the way to the devil and his angels. Do you know what happens to a Muslim who says such a thing?
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Post by fixit on Aug 30, 2014 2:26:37 GMT -5
Judaism is called Monotheistic, but that can't be so because there is a quite a host of heavenly deities, in a hierarchy from God, to the Son to the heavenly angels.... all the way to the devil and his angels. Do you know what happens to a Muslim who says such a thing? I could post a picture, but it wouldn't be family-friendly viewing.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 30, 2014 15:24:42 GMT -5
Do you know what happens to a Muslim who says such a thing? I could post a picture, but it wouldn't be family-friendly viewing. Then you really don't know what would happen to a Muslim who said such a thing.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 30, 2014 17:03:19 GMT -5
I could post a picture, but it wouldn't be family-friendly viewing. Then you really don't know what would happen to a Muslim who said such a thing. I have very little understanding of the Islam faith....main reason is there are so many factions and each faction wants to kill the other factions. I have wondered what would I do if a radical came to me and asked me what I believed.....I would like to know just who their God is before I answer...main reason being I have a question as to how many religious groups actually are worshipping the same God but under a different name and worship style...... I have some Muslim friends that are very good people...I would wish them no problems nor pain in their lives, but they would just as apt to be mistreated by the radicals as I would, or so it would seem. I don't understand how the radicals think they can gain a number of army if they go around killing the men! Why don't they treat them better then they've ever been treated and often that will win them over to their side of Islam! It has worked for others! But of course killing the adult men, they take the children and women for their slaves, they will teach the boys their brand of radicalism plus how to fight and how to be a suicide bomber, etc It seems to me that the middle eastern countries have been fighting amongst themselves ever since they became known to be of different areas, states, counties, countries, religions, etc WHY?
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Post by fixit on Aug 30, 2014 19:17:52 GMT -5
I don't understand how the radicals think they can gain a number of army if they go around killing the men! Why don't they treat them better then they've ever been treated and often that will win them over to their side of Islam! It has worked for others! But of course killing the adult men, they take the children and women for their slaves, they will teach the boys their brand of radicalism plus how to fight and how to be a suicide bomber, etc I think they're making a big mistake that will ultimately result in their downfall. They may have created a successful Caliphate if they had been more moderate and inclusive.
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Post by Mary on Aug 30, 2014 20:19:12 GMT -5
Not only do they take the woman for slaves but for wives. Mohammad himself took a Jewish wife form one whose husband his men killed. The woman not only lost her husband but was also made to marry the people who killed her husband.
Being the religion of the whole world means to many Muslims that they do not have to obey the law of a country or pay taxes, getting welfare cheques when they are working under the table etc. After all I've heard them say "the world belongs to Islam".
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 30, 2014 22:31:36 GMT -5
Then you really don't know what would happen to a Muslim who said such a thing. I think you missed the point of my response to fixit -- as I expect he did also. Fixit said: Judaism is called Monotheistic, but that can't be so because there is a quite a host of heavenly deities, in a hierarchy from God, to the Son to the heavenly angels.... all the way to the devil and his angels. I asked him what he thought would happen to a Muslim who said such a thing, and he replied that he could post a picture, but it wouldn't be family friendly. I have no idea what he meant, but he's big on Muslim retaliation. Problem is, what fixit said about Judaism is exactly what a Muslim would say about Judaism and Christianity both. It would be an insult to most Christians that a Muslim would say such a thing. My point was: A Christian feels he can comfortable say such a thing about Jews, but when a Muslim says the same thing about a Christian, many take insult. I expect you have been asked what you believe a number of times already. I expect you told them what you believe. How were you sure they were not radicals? I dare say a Muslim radical would have no interest at all in what you believe. "Radical" means a person puts his ideology before human reason and compassion -- they're like cults, some are deadly and the rest are restrained by force of law and/or bigger bullies. Unfortunately this is a long-standing trait of monotheistic religions. Until they are restrained by civil law their fanatics know no limits. ISIL has not done anything that Christians and Jews have not already done. Because that is how patriarchal societies behave. Everywhere. One of the problems with life in the Middle East is that since man began roaming around the planet, the Middle East has always been the crossroads of the world among Asia, Africa, and Europe. Their fertile land was the envy of three continents, and everyone wanted to control their access to the rest of the world. That meant controlling the Middle East. Then they found oil, and the rest of the world is still fighting over who's going to have it. I expect it will be like that at least until our Western society collapses.
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Post by fixit on Aug 30, 2014 23:07:18 GMT -5
Fixit said:Judaism is called Monotheistic, but that can't be so because there is a quite a host of heavenly deities, in a hierarchy from God, to the Son to the heavenly angels.... all the way to the devil and his angels. Fixit said no such thing. Some TMB members would be bitter and twisted over being misrepresented, but its OK Bob. I only want to put the record straight.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2014 0:04:15 GMT -5
Fixit said:Judaism is called Monotheistic, but that can't be so because there is a quite a host of heavenly deities, in a hierarchy from God, to the Son to the heavenly angels.... all the way to the devil and his angels. Fixit said no such thing. Some TMB members would be bitter and twisted over being misrepresented, but its OK Bob. I only want to put the record straight. Sorry, it was Bert who posted that. Yes, some might be twisted over a misrepresentation, but I'm known for confusing names and people, so I appreciate your understanding. However, if you did say such a thing, I wouldn't be twisted or bitter at all about you saying it. Come to think of it, it sounded more like Bert that you anyway. But, I responded to this statement (by Bert) and YOU responded, saying that the picture would not be family-friendly. So reconsider my note to sharing above as my response to your family-friendly comment. What I wrote to her was more about what I got from your comment than about Bert's statement anyway.
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Post by bubbles on Aug 31, 2014 6:23:34 GMT -5
Recently I travelled through Arabia. My fav country of all time is Oman. The peace there was palpable. I discovered the country has a good King. Everybody loves him. They all talk about him. People dont pay taxes. Healthcare and education are free for the Omanies. I heard so much praise of their king from Muscat to Salalah.
It took me back to the good and bad kings of the OT. Hezekiah was a good King. Yes Oman is a very wealthy country but not the foundation for good character.
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Post by xna on Aug 31, 2014 7:26:46 GMT -5
Recently I travelled through Arabia. My fav country of all time is Oman. The peace there was palpable. I discovered the country has a good King. Everybody loves him. They all talk about him. People dont pay taxes. Healthcare and education are free for the Omanies. I heard so much praise of their king from Muscat to Salalah. It took me back to the good and bad kings of the OT. Hezekiah was a good King. Yes Oman is a very wealthy country but not the foundation for good character. Islam is the state religion, and Sharia is it's law, (agreed, it's a bad foundation for a nation). Petrochemicals makes "good times" - for a while. Take away the Oil and LNG, & it will not be the same happy picture. At least the king understands this. I agree, Shari & the OT are about the same. Sad governmentinexile.typepad.com/government_in_exile/2011/02/is-sharia-law-derived-from-the-old-testament.html
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 31, 2014 11:01:16 GMT -5
I think you missed the point of my response to fixit -- as I expect he did also. Fixit said: Judaism is called Monotheistic, but that can't be so because there is a quite a host of heavenly deities, in a hierarchy from God, to the Son to the heavenly angels.... all the way to the devil and his angels. I asked him what he thought would happen to a Muslim who said such a thing, and he replied that he could post a picture, but it wouldn't be family friendly. I have no idea what he meant, but he's big on Muslim retaliation. Problem is, what fixit said about Judaism is exactly what a Muslim would say about Judaism and Christianity both. It would be an insult to most Christians that a Muslim would say such a thing. My point was: A Christian feels he can comfortable say such a thing about Jews, but when a Muslim says the same thing about a Christian, many take insult. I expect you have been asked what you believe a number of times already. I expect you told them what you believe. How were you sure they were not radicals? I dare say a Muslim radical would have no interest at all in what you believe. "Radical" means a person puts his ideology before human reason and compassion -- they're like cults, some are deadly and the rest are restrained by force of law and/or bigger bullies. Unfortunately this is a long-standing trait of monotheistic religions. Until they are restrained by civil law their fanatics know no limits. ISIL has not done anything that Christians and Jews have not already done. Because that is how patriarchal societies behave. Everywhere. One of the problems with life in the Middle East is that since man began roaming around the planet, the Middle East has always been the crossroads of the world among Asia, Africa, and Europe. Their fertile land was the envy of three continents, and everyone wanted to control their access to the rest of the world. That meant controlling the Middle East. Then they found oil, and the rest of the world is still fighting over who's going to have it. I expect it will be like that at least until our Western society collapses. Thank you a whole lot, Bob! Interesting data! I understand the killing fields of the different religions throughout time......seems even Esau and Jacob were on opposite ends of a couple of religious beliefs...and Jacob feared Esau greatly....but Esau had been blessed with much and he felt no need that Jacob should even give him "gifts". I wonder if Jacob's gift giving to Esau might not have left a sour taste in Esau's mouth? I mean after all Jacob's gift came from what Esau's birthright had been! Sheesh, I might turn my nose up should my brother or sister give me a "gift" when the whole shebang should have been my birthright....and yes, I remember Esau had sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of pottage! But I wondered why Jacob had not taken compassion for Esau's hunger and given him the bowl of pottage as a gift then and not have to wait years down the road and give Esau a gift out of his birthright!
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Post by faune on Aug 31, 2014 11:25:55 GMT -5
Judaism is called Monotheistic, but that can't be so because there is a quite a host of heavenly deities, in a hierarchy from God, to the Son to the heavenly angels.... all the way to the devil and his angels. Do you know what happens to a Muslim who says such a thing? Here's a Frontline article on the practices and beliefs of Muslims for anybody who might be interested? Bob, do enlighten us on the answer to your question and don't keep us guessing for long?
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/muslims/themes/beliefs.html
I believe this site where Muslims ask and Christians answer would provide some insight into the response to Bert's statement above?
aam.s1205.t3isp.de/topic-2-the-divinity-of-jesus.html?L=1
Bob ~ I noticed it was Bert who made that original statement and Fixit just commented on what you said in response to Bert. Your response to STR got the two confused from all appearances.
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2014 15:34:13 GMT -5
They are different. The Koran leads people to believe their duty in the 21st century is to kill infidels, and we see the results of that all over the world. The OT doesn't have the same effect, largely because the atrocities in the OT were more time specific, while the Koran's teaching is for all time.
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Post by xna on Aug 31, 2014 16:13:35 GMT -5
They are different. The Koran leads people to believe their duty in the 21st century is to kill infidels, and we see the results of that all over the world. The OT doesn't have the same effect, largely because the atrocities in the OT were more time specific, while the Koran's teaching is for all time. You could argue the NT is better than the OT for those living in that time and I would agree, but the NT has eternal hell which to me is a much worse fate than a one time beheading.
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Post by faune on Aug 31, 2014 16:21:37 GMT -5
They are different. The Koran leads people to believe their duty in the 21st century is to kill infidels, and we see the results of that all over the world. The OT doesn't have the same effect, largely because the atrocities in the OT were more time specific, while the Koran's teaching is for all time. Fixit ~ What about doing in all the tribes outside Israel that believed different from them? That was the order given by the leaders in those days under the direction of God. It spoke of destroying men, women, and children and not leaving anybody behind ~ reminded of the Amalekites and Saul and how Elijah reminded him that the order from God was to completely destroy their enemies. I agree that Christians don't do the same today, but they did at one time in history.
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2014 16:43:59 GMT -5
They are different. The Koran leads people to believe their duty in the 21st century is to kill infidels, and we see the results of that all over the world. The OT doesn't have the same effect, largely because the atrocities in the OT were more time specific, while the Koran's teaching is for all time. Fixit ~ What about doing in all the tribes outside Israel that believed different from them? That was the order given by the leaders in those days under the direction of God. It spoke of destroying men, women, and children and not leaving anybody behind ~ reminded of the Amalekites and Saul and how Elijah reminded him that the order from God was to completely destroy their enemies. I agree that Christians don't do the same today, but they did at one time in history. The challenge is to bring Islamic teaching into the 21st century.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2014 17:33:50 GMT -5
They are different. The Koran leads people to believe their duty in the 21st century is to kill infidels, and we see the results of that all over the world. The OT doesn't have the same effect, largely because the atrocities in the OT were more time specific, while the Koran's teaching is for all time. Quite the contrary. The Qur'an says that "there will be no compulsion in religion" ... for all time ... (no matter what Christians think or what radical Muslims do), and the OT on occasion supports the decimation of whole nations.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2014 17:44:13 GMT -5
Fixit ~ What about doing in all the tribes outside Israel that believed different from them? That was the order given by the leaders in those days under the direction of God. It spoke of destroying men, women, and children and not leaving anybody behind ~ reminded of the Amalekites and Saul and how Elijah reminded him that the order from God was to completely destroy their enemies. I agree that Christians don't do the same today, but they did at one time in history. The challenge is to bring Islamic teaching into the 21st century. No, Fixit. The challenge is to deal with the radicals. Islam does very well in the 21st century -- you just don't see it. Islam is not the cause of terrorism -- terrorism is caused by the marriage of politics with religious fanaticism. Terrorism is not a religious problem ... it is a criminally minded nut-case problem; or as happened in the early American colonies, it was a patriotic act.
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2014 17:44:24 GMT -5
They are different. The Koran leads people to believe their duty in the 21st century is to kill infidels, and we see the results of that all over the world. The OT doesn't have the same effect, largely because the atrocities in the OT were more time specific, while the Koran's teaching is for all time. Quite the contrary. The Qur'an says that "there will be no compulsion in religion" ... for all time ... (no matter what Christians think or what radical Muslims do), and the OT on occasion supports the decimation of whole nations. One of Islam's most revered modern scholars, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, openly sanctions offensive Jihad: "In the Jihad which you are seeking, you look for the enemy and invade him. This type of Jihad takes place only when the Islamic state is invading other [countries] in order to spread the word of Islam and to remove obstacles standing in its way." Elsewhere, he notes: "Islam has the right to take the initiative… this is God’s religion and it is for the whole world. It has the right to destroy all obstacles in the form of institutions and traditions … it attacks institutions and traditions to release human beings from their poisonous influences, which distort human nature and curtail human freedom. Those who say that Islamic Jihad was merely for the defense of the 'homeland of Islam' diminish the greatness of the Islamic way of life."
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2014 17:46:23 GMT -5
Quite the contrary. The Qur'an says that "there will be no compulsion in religion" ... for all time ... (no matter what Christians think or what radical Muslims do), and the OT on occasion supports the decimation of whole nations. One of Islam's most revered modern scholars, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, openly sanctions offensive Jihad: "In the Jihad which you are seeking, you look for the enemy and invade him. This type of Jihad takes place only when the Islamic state is invading other [countries] in order to spread the word of Islam and to remove obstacles standing in its way." Elsewhere, he notes: "Islam has the right to take the initiative… this is God’s religion and it is for the whole world. It has the right to destroy all obstacles in the form of institutions and traditions … it attacks institutions and traditions to release human beings from their poisonous influences, which distort human nature and curtail human freedom. Those who say that Islamic Jihad was merely for the defense of the 'homeland of Islam' diminish the greatness of the Islamic way of life." Fixit -- do you get your kicks from reading Islamic fundamentalist propaganda? What kind of hole have you dug yourself into?
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2014 18:21:00 GMT -5
One of Islam's most revered modern scholars, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi, openly sanctions offensive Jihad: "In the Jihad which you are seeking, you look for the enemy and invade him. This type of Jihad takes place only when the Islamic state is invading other [countries] in order to spread the word of Islam and to remove obstacles standing in its way." Elsewhere, he notes: "Islam has the right to take the initiative… this is God’s religion and it is for the whole world. It has the right to destroy all obstacles in the form of institutions and traditions … it attacks institutions and traditions to release human beings from their poisonous influences, which distort human nature and curtail human freedom. Those who say that Islamic Jihad was merely for the defense of the 'homeland of Islam' diminish the greatness of the Islamic way of life." Fixit -- do you get your kicks from reading Islamic fundamentalist propaganda? What kind of hole have you dug yourself into? Don't you consider this guy an influential Islamic authority? He memorized the entire Koran by age 9.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2014 18:43:33 GMT -5
Fixit -- do you get your kicks from reading Islamic fundamentalist propaganda? What kind of hole have you dug yourself into? Don't you consider this guy an influential Islamic authority? He memorized the entire Koran by age 9. No, I don't. He may be influential ... among fundamentalists. Rush Limbaugh is influential too, but he's a lunatic jerk. They both pander to radicals. And memorizing the Qur'an by age 9 is no indication of authority at all. Muslims all over the Muslim world memorize the Qur'an, and most of them don't have a clue what they are saying because they don't speak Arabic. They have annual international contests for adolescents on Qur'an recitation, and the kids from most countries have to have translators with them so they know what part of the Qur'an they're being asked to recite.
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2014 18:55:13 GMT -5
Don't you consider this guy an influential Islamic authority? He memorized the entire Koran by age 9. No, I don't. He may be influential ... among fundamentalists. Rush Limbaugh is influential too, but he's a lunatic jerk. They both pander to radicals. And memorizing the Qur'an by age 9 is no indication of authority at all. Muslims all over the Muslim world memorize the Qur'an, and most of them don't have a clue what they are saying because they don't speak Arabic. They have annual international contests for adolescents on Qur'an recitation, and the kids from most countries have to have translators with them so they know what part of the Qur'an they're being asked to recite. Now you're really scaring me! There must be an awful lot of fundamentalists because this guy: 1. Was chosen to be chairman of the International Union of Muslim Scholars. 2. His program al-Sharīʿa wa al-Ḥayāh ("Shariah and Life") is broadcasted on Al Jazeera, and has an estimated audience of 60 million worldwide. 3. Is well known for IslamOnline, a popular website he helped found in 1997 and for which he now serves as chief religious scholar. 4. Has received eight international prizes for his contributions to Islamic scholarship. 5. Has published more than 120 books, including The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam and Islam: The Future Civilization. 6. Has long had a prominent role within the intellectual leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was elected as the government of Egypt. 7. Was chosen to be a trustee of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies. 8. Served as a consultant scholar for an epic movie in English on Muhammad, and a 30-part series on the second caliph 'Umar b. al-Khațțāb.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2014 19:18:44 GMT -5
No, I don't. He may be influential ... among fundamentalists. Rush Limbaugh is influential too, but he's a lunatic jerk. They both pander to radicals. And memorizing the Qur'an by age 9 is no indication of authority at all. Muslims all over the Muslim world memorize the Qur'an, and most of them don't have a clue what they are saying because they don't speak Arabic. They have annual international contests for adolescents on Qur'an recitation, and the kids from most countries have to have translators with them so they know what part of the Qur'an they're being asked to recite. Now you're really scaring me! There must be an awful lot of fundamentalists because this guy: 1. Was chosen to be chairman of the International Union of Muslim Scholars. 2. His program al-Sharīʿa wa al-Ḥayāh ("Shariah and Life") is broadcasted on Al Jazeera, and has an estimated audience of 60 million worldwide. 3. Is well known for IslamOnline, a popular website he helped found in 1997 and for which he now serves as chief religious scholar. 4. Has received eight international prizes for his contributions to Islamic scholarship. 5. Has published more than 120 books, including The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam and Islam: The Future Civilization. 6. Has long had a prominent role within the intellectual leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was elected as the government of Egypt. 7. Was chosen to be a trustee of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies. 8. Served as a consultant scholar for an epic movie in English on Muhammad, and a 30-part series on the second caliph 'Umar b. al-Khațțāb. What am I doing to scare you? If you want something to scare you, consider this: Rush Limbaugh still has a bigger audience.
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2014 19:42:19 GMT -5
Now you're really scaring me! There must be an awful lot of fundamentalists because this guy: 1. Was chosen to be chairman of the International Union of Muslim Scholars. 2. His program al-Sharīʿa wa al-Ḥayāh ("Shariah and Life") is broadcasted on Al Jazeera, and has an estimated audience of 60 million worldwide. 3. Is well known for IslamOnline, a popular website he helped found in 1997 and for which he now serves as chief religious scholar. 4. Has received eight international prizes for his contributions to Islamic scholarship. 5. Has published more than 120 books, including The Lawful and the Prohibited in Islam and Islam: The Future Civilization. 6. Has long had a prominent role within the intellectual leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was elected as the government of Egypt. 7. Was chosen to be a trustee of the Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies. 8. Served as a consultant scholar for an epic movie in English on Muhammad, and a 30-part series on the second caliph 'Umar b. al-Khațțāb. What am I doing to scare you? If you want something to scare you, consider this: Rush Limbaugh still has a bigger audience. Does Rush Limbaugh promote global jihad?
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