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Post by Mary on Aug 31, 2014 19:18:17 GMT -5
Wally im going to do a dmmichgood and rational Show me scriptures please. Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. So what is that to do with keeping the laws and rules of a church? Such as a woman cutting her hair - that trespassing against you?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 20:08:35 GMT -5
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. So what is that to do with keeping the laws and rules of a church? Such as a woman cutting her hair - that trespassing against you? that could be considered as offending the brethern. you know were not suppose to put a stumblingblock before a brother/sister...
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2014 20:16:44 GMT -5
Wally: what does "trespass against thee" include?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 20:25:17 GMT -5
Wally: what does "trespass against thee" include? another endless list of things...
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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2014 20:48:10 GMT -5
Wally: what does "trespass against thee" include? another endless list of things... Where I'm coming from is that caution needs to be applied to some of this doctrine. One person may simply turn the other cheek, while another might kick someone out of the church. At least if the whole church is involved there's a chance reason will prevail. However if workers get involved anything could happen.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 31, 2014 20:49:20 GMT -5
Wally: what does "trespass against thee" include? another endless list of things... Such as ?
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Post by Mary on Aug 31, 2014 21:02:37 GMT -5
So what is that to do with keeping the laws and rules of a church? Such as a woman cutting her hair - that trespassing against you? that could be considered as offending the brethern. you know were not suppose to put a stumblingblock before a brother/sister... So not obeying man made rules might be seen as offending the brethern. I would say it would bring joy to many of the brethern to be free from the laws of men. It would only offend controlling people who like to see rules obeyed. it is the difference between obeying rules and laws like the Pharisees did or obeying the Spirit of God. I would say many who do not obey the man made rules are probably more in touch with God than those who obey the law/rules.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 31, 2014 23:42:46 GMT -5
So what is that to do with keeping the laws and rules of a church? Such as a woman cutting her hair - that trespassing against you? that could be considered as offending the brethern. you know were not suppose to put a stumblingblock before a brother/sister... That idea that a person is "not suppose to put a stumblingblock before a brother/sister..." is one of the best ideas that there is in using psychological coercion to control a person into doing what the controller wants!
There are Two psychological ideas involved:
1) it puts the cause for the failure of their brother/sister on you. ( what burden that is to have to bear!) 2) it pats you on the head by making you feel superior to your brother/sister. (what you do may not affect yourself because you are strong, but it could affect your brother/sister)
They gottcha' coming & going!
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Post by fixit on Sept 1, 2014 1:28:57 GMT -5
So what is that to do with keeping the laws and rules of a church? Such as a woman cutting her hair - that trespassing against you? that could be considered as offending the brethern. you know were not suppose to put a stumblingblock before a brother/sister... That's like JW's being offended if someone has a blood transfusion. Or Mormons being offended when someone fails to wear sacred underwear.
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Post by Mary on Sept 1, 2014 1:50:58 GMT -5
Or Muslims being offended when women don't cover their bodies or show their hair.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 1, 2014 2:29:23 GMT -5
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. So what is that to do with keeping the laws and rules of a church? Such as a woman cutting her hair - that trespassing against you? Wally They were the scriptures I referred to in another post. Oh about AR.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 1, 2014 2:34:40 GMT -5
Fixit
Mormons sacred headgear?
Mary
I was in the Souq in Salalah and these young Arab women came over. Interested at a westerner I guess. I teased one of them 'I cant see you'tugging gently on her burka. She giggled back. Had beautiful eyes. The burka was rigid tight. Unbelievably tight. As tho stapled to the back of her head. I wouldnt have been so cheeky with an older woman.
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Post by kencoolidge on Sept 1, 2014 5:18:39 GMT -5
What worldly influences are you talking about wally? Do you mean worldly influences such as obeying the rules made by the workers? It is the Holy Spirit that convicts and does the work within us. Man made rules are just that, man made rules which quench the work of the Holy Spirit. I fail to see what worldly influences you mean. My salvation rests with Jesus and him alone. The church is for fellowship not salvation. If you believe that your salvation rests with the first century church how come you choose a church that is only 110 years old. Too bad the only way some can believe in their church is to live in denial. Denial does not wipe out history. The paper trail stops at Irvine because there is nothing before. the list of things would be endless but here are a couple of things that are influencing churches around the world, co-habitation, divorce and remarriage(yes the eastern usa friends are wrong on this one), and gay marriage... Wally A common technique to discredit all except ones own group. Build a strawman with the worst examples then include all out side your group in it. Very poor and dishonest technique ken
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Post by kencoolidge on Sept 1, 2014 5:31:03 GMT -5
that story of the wheat and the tare doesn't say we can't judge whats a tare or wheat it says we are not to remove it for fear of trampling down the good wheat...there are other verses though where it says we are to not have anything to do with brethern that wont toe the line....so we IMO have to have balance Careful Wally! That would be a sloppy and dangerous interpretation of scripture, which doesn't give a subjective term like "won't toe the line". Example: You could shun a brother or sister for refusing orders from a fornicating worker. You could shun sexually abused children for rebelling against their abusers. It would mean this scripture is being applied in the opposite way to what was intended. Wally Your statement we are to not have anything to do with brethern that wont toe the line....so we IMO have to have balance Perhaps you are ignoring some scripture and making up worker verses. Did Jesus tell us to discourage those who are not following His lead by seperation or to come along side with the right example and encourage the wayward to follow? Seperating yourself from a disobedient usually isn't neccesary. if you are doing what is right they will not want anything to do with you. Is your judgement true? In Love ken
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Post by fixit on Sept 1, 2014 6:20:02 GMT -5
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Post by bubbles on Sept 1, 2014 6:25:25 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 13:18:47 GMT -5
that could be considered as offending the brethern. you know were not suppose to put a stumblingblock before a brother/sister... That's like JW's being offended if someone has a blood transfusion. Or Mormons being offended when someone fails to wear sacred underwear. although i don't agree with those things, that would be considered a stumblingblock to JW's and mormons...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 13:23:07 GMT -5
Careful Wally! That would be a sloppy and dangerous interpretation of scripture, which doesn't give a subjective term like "won't toe the line". Example: You could shun a brother or sister for refusing orders from a fornicating worker. You could shun sexually abused children for rebelling against their abusers. It would mean this scripture is being applied in the opposite way to what was intended. Wally Your statement we are to not have anything to do with brethern that wont toe the line....so we IMO have to have balance Perhaps you are ignoring some scripture and making up worker verses. Did Jesus tell us to discourage those who are not following His lead by seperation or to come along side with the right example and encourage the wayward to follow? Seperating yourself from a disobedient usually isn't neccesary. if you are doing what is right they will not want anything to do with you. Is your judgement true? In Love ken no i didn't make up any verses i posted one and so did fixit about seperating oneself from evil doers...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 13:25:03 GMT -5
the list of things would be endless but here are a couple of things that are influencing churches around the world, co-habitation, divorce and remarriage(yes the eastern usa friends are wrong on this one), and gay marriage... Wally A common technique to discredit all except ones own group. Build a strawman with the worst examples then include all out side your group in it. Very poor and dishonest technique ken i only responded to marys questions nothing dishonest about that...
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Post by emy on Sept 1, 2014 21:24:15 GMT -5
Wally Your statement we are to not have anything to do with brethern that wont toe the line....so we IMO have to have balance Perhaps you are ignoring some scripture and making up worker verses. Did Jesus tell us to discourage those who are not following His lead by seperation or to come along side with the right example and encourage the wayward to follow? Seperating yourself from a disobedient usually isn't neccesary. if you are doing what is right they will not want anything to do with you. Is your judgement true? In Love ken That part I underlined is true... and scriptural. Jude 17 - 19 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 2, 2014 3:49:27 GMT -5
Wally Your statement we are to not have anything to do with brethern that wont toe the line....so we IMO have to have balance Perhaps you are ignoring some scripture and making up worker verses. Did Jesus tell us to discourage those who are not following His lead by seperation or to come along side with the right example and encourage the wayward to follow? Seperating yourself from a disobedient usually isn't neccesary. if you are doing what is right they will not want anything to do with you. Is your judgement true? In Love ken That part I underlined is true... and scriptural. Jude 17 - 19 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. When you look at these scriptures in relation to "towing the line?" You would have to know the person was 'mocking, walking after ungodly lusts having not the spirit.' I think of the scripture where Jesus left the 99 and went after the one. While Jude 17 to 19 is explaining how to handle those traits it doesnt witness with me that this is the situation stevenz is facing. HE hasnt made any mocking comments. He is isnt portraying a wrong spirit. Quite the opposite. I dont see anything sensual or lusty in his comments either. Clearly Jude 17 to 19 does not apply in this instance. Him and his friends havent separated themselves either. If they had they would have walked with their feet. Workers claim to be gods chosen few. They should know how respond in love Why arent they? Having no courage to handle this biblically is not an excuse. Im suspicious. Very.
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Post by kencoolidge on Sept 2, 2014 6:19:31 GMT -5
Wally Your statement we are to not have anything to do with brethern that wont toe the line....so we IMO have to have balance Perhaps you are ignoring some scripture and making up worker verses. Did Jesus tell us to discourage those who are not following His lead by seperation or to come along side with the right example and encourage the wayward to follow? Seperating yourself from a disobedient usually isn't neccesary. if you are doing what is right they will not want anything to do with you. Is your judgement true? In Love ken That part I underlined is true... and scriptural. Jude 17 - 19 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. Emy I guess I left myself open for your comments. Plain speach without misleading conclusions is a difficult skill. Rational is skilled at this and I appreciate his sharing that skill. Towing the line is the red flag for me.If the guidelines(lines) are from Jesus then AMEN, if from somewhere else shame on you. Seperating oneself from mockers or csa practioners is indeed the right thing to do. If you are hanging out with such, I would dare say you are in the wrong crowd. Hope I have clarified my original post ken
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Post by emy on Sept 2, 2014 13:18:27 GMT -5
That part I underlined is true... and scriptural. Jude 17 - 19 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. When you look at these scriptures in relation to "towing the line?" You would have to know the person was 'mocking, walking after ungodly lusts having not the spirit.' I think of the scripture where Jesus left the 99 and went after the one. While Jude 17 to 19 is explaining how to handle those traits it doesnt witness with me that this is the situation stevenz is facing. HE hasnt made any mocking comments. He is isnt portraying a wrong spirit. Quite the opposite. I dont see anything sensual or lusty in his comments either. Clearly Jude 17 to 19 does not apply in this instance. Him and his friends havent separated themselves either. If they had they would have walked with their feet. Workers claim to be gods chosen few. They should know how respond in love Why arent they? Having no courage to handle this biblically is not an excuse. Im suspicious. Very. You misread, I think. I was actually agreeing with the writer. I wasn't at all aiming anything negative toward stevenz. If it came across that way, I apologize.
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Post by emy on Sept 2, 2014 13:23:50 GMT -5
That part I underlined is true... and scriptural. Jude 17 - 19 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. Emy I guess I left myself open for your comments. Plain speach without misleading conclusions is a difficult skill. Rational is skilled at this and I appreciate his sharing that skill. Towing the line is the red flag for me.If the guidelines(lines) are from Jesus then AMEN, if from somewhere else shame on you. Seperating oneself from mockers or csa practioners is indeed the right thing to do. If you are hanging out with such, I would dare say you are in the wrong crowd. Hope I have clarified my original post ken Obviously it was I who was not clear. I was agreeing with you and providing scripture to back that up. What I quoted is saying that you won't have to worry about the mockers, etc. if you keep keep faithful and in the love of God and pray; the mockers will separate from you.
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Post by kencoolidge on Sept 2, 2014 13:41:18 GMT -5
Emy I guess I left myself open for your comments. Plain speach without misleading conclusions is a difficult skill. Rational is skilled at this and I appreciate his sharing that skill. Towing the line is the red flag for me.If the guidelines(lines) are from Jesus then AMEN, if from somewhere else shame on you. Seperating oneself from mockers or csa practioners is indeed the right thing to do. If you are hanging out with such, I would dare say you are in the wrong crowd. Hope I have clarified my original post ken Obviously it was I who was not clear. I was agreeing with you and providing scripture to back that up. What I quoted is saying that you won't have to worry about the mockers, etc. if you keep keep faithful and in the love of God and pray; the mockers will separate from you. Amen Thanks Emy I think for the most part we are on the same page and line Loveyou ken
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Post by bubbles on Sept 2, 2014 13:48:39 GMT -5
When you look at these scriptures in relation to "towing the line?" You would have to know the person was 'mocking, walking after ungodly lusts having not the spirit.' I think of the scripture where Jesus left the 99 and went after the one. While Jude 17 to 19 is explaining how to handle those traits it doesnt witness with me that this is the situation stevenz is facing. HE hasnt made any mocking comments. He is isnt portraying a wrong spirit. Quite the opposite. I dont see anything sensual or lusty in his comments either. Clearly Jude 17 to 19 does not apply in this instance. Him and his friends havent separated themselves either. If they had they would have walked with their feet. Workers claim to be gods chosen few. They should know how respond in love Why arent they? Having no courage to handle this biblically is not an excuse. Im suspicious. Very. You misread, I think. I was actually agreeing with the writer. I wasn't at all aiming anything negative toward stevenz. If it came across that way, I apologize. Emy No its my stuffup. Im sorry about that.im using my ph and sometimes drops out midway through reading or answering. Ive mixed up the threads. So when ive read your comments about jude linked it in my mind with the scenario in NZ. Yes ken your are right Probably com8ng in here bit to much too.
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