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Post by emy on Sept 1, 2014 23:44:55 GMT -5
I am impressed by the model shown in Acts 6, where the apostles openly delegated the appointment of trustees/deacons to the church members, “while we give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” [NIV We will turn this responsibility over to them and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.] As Paul said, when he delegated the handling of financial gifts to a brother elected by the friends, “avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us: providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men” [ NIV We want to avoid any criticism of the way we administer this liberal gift. For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.] We could also consider Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. Isn't this how it is done? Funds are given to responsible non-workers for caretaking, but administered through the workers?
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Post by stevnz on Sept 2, 2014 0:05:58 GMT -5
I am impressed by the model shown in Acts 6, where the apostles openly delegated the appointment of trustees/deacons to the church members, “while we give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” [NIV We will turn this responsibility over to them and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.] As Paul said, when he delegated the handling of financial gifts to a brother elected by the friends, “avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us: providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men” [ NIV We want to avoid any criticism of the way we administer this liberal gift. For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.] We could also consider Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. Isn't this how it is done? Funds are given to responsible non-workers for caretaking, but administered through the workers? No. It is my experience that the funds are managed secretly, not openly. The friends aren't told who are 'the responsible non-workers'. The responsible people aren't elected by the friends.
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Post by stevnz on Sept 2, 2014 0:10:10 GMT -5
The money matter will never be discussed openly because it is against the very religion that they preach. The overseer has large amounts of money with no accountability to anyone. The money is in chosen members bank accounts so that the money can't be traced to the religion or the workers. Yes, taxes are paid on it as it is reported to the government each year, but it is reported as belonging to the member who is holding it. That is totally untrue. The workers also receive monthly social security checks, which means it has to be reported to the government. If it is said to be used for charity I don't know, but so much for the preaching of being penniless. The workers then receive medicare, the health care from the government. So much for the preaching of going out two by two with nothing. The teaching of the religion of not collecting money is also cloudy. They collect money, they just do it sneaky. Shake the workers hand after a gospel meeting and it is expected to have money past. That is a well known fact. I love the old excuse, they will be held accountable on judgment day. But, in the mean time, we'll deceive as many as possible on our exact actions. The trust funds weren't even admitted until it became so well known, they had to admit it. But it is still done with deceit by not claiming it and not acknowledging who has what and how much and where it goes and what they own and what convention grounds do they own and etc. So much for the church built with hands. And, if you are blind sided by going along with the deceit, that is your problem. The workers also receive monthly social security checks
Completely wrong in our country. Only workers no longer able to preach get any government assistance. NO active worker gets social security. Shake the workers hand after a gospel meeting and it is expected to have money past. That is a well known factAgain completely wrong. In 50 odd years of attending meetings every week I have NEVER seen or felt that any worker expects money.When they stay in our home I NEVER get any feeling that they want money. Recently I offered workers some money and they told me very nicely that actually at the moment they didn't really need it but would I consider sending it overseas to somewhere they knew had a need. Hardly grabbing what they could???
At least one active Australian worker has been receiving a government pension. That is probably the exception rather than the norm. I agree with R&T that workers do not actively solicit or expect monetary gifts. It is certainly NOT expected that money would be given after a gospel meeting.
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Post by emy on Sept 2, 2014 0:10:05 GMT -5
Elizabeth As I understand it- tithing is giving a percentage of your income which would equal a set amount. The difference is: We are never asked for money, no collection is made and we choose how, when, how much and to whom we give the money . There may be other churches that do just as we do, but that doesn't alter what we do and the reason we do it.I have never heard it preached that we are the only ones that don't take collections or have an unpaid ministry, but they do preach that this is how it should be. What review said is my story. 'I give to the ministry because of the deep spiritual dimension that exists between the members and the workers, and my desire to support the ministry.' So Really & Truly, can you explain what "The deep spiritual dimension that exists between the members and workers" actually is ? Not reallytruly, but also part of the fellowship in question... I feel the bond as unity brought about through likeness of spirit. (Indwelling and guiding by the Holy Spirit)
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Post by emy on Sept 2, 2014 0:20:05 GMT -5
Isn't this how it is done? Funds are given to responsible non-workers for caretaking, but administered through the workers? No. It is my experience that the funds are managed secretly, not openly. The friends aren't told who are 'the responsible non-workers'. The responsible people aren't elected by the friends. Are you sure the workers in charge do not inquire among the friends who would best handle finances? Both workers and a friend were in charge of delivering a gift in special circumstances. I have not understood it was a regular collection for general needs among the people.
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 2, 2014 0:44:10 GMT -5
So Really & Truly, can you explain what "The deep spiritual dimension that exists between the members and workers" actually is ? Not reallytruly, but also part of the fellowship in question... I feel the bond as unity brought about through likeness of spirit. (Indwelling and guiding by the Holy Spirit) So in your opinion Emy, does this indwelling and guiding by the Holy Spirit ONLY happen amongst those in meetings ? Is it something that is only between members & workers in "the truth" ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 0:47:33 GMT -5
Not reallytruly, but also part of the fellowship in question... I feel the bond as unity brought about through likeness of spirit. (Indwelling and guiding by the Holy Spirit) So in your opinion Emy, does this indwelling and guiding by the Holy Spirit ONLY happen amongst those in meetings ? Is it something that is only between members & workers in "the truth" ? it works in all those whom God has chosen to give it to, who can tell? God
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 2, 2014 1:00:47 GMT -5
So in your opinion Emy, does this indwelling and guiding by the Holy Spirit ONLY happen amongst those in meetings ? Is it something that is only between members & workers in "the truth" ? it works in all those whom God has chosen to give it to, who can tell? God So Virgo, are you saying its possible for this deep spiritual dimension to also be amongst people who don't go to "meetings" ? People in other Churches for example ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 1:35:34 GMT -5
it works in all those whom God has chosen to give it to, who can tell? God So Virgo, are you saying its possible for this deep spiritual dimension to also be amongst people who don't go to "meetings" ? People in other Churches for example ? possible
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Post by bubbles on Sept 2, 2014 1:38:16 GMT -5
Deep spiritual dimension? Id love an explanation on this. Some people are so spiritually minded they are no earthly use. Labelled super spiro's in Oz
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Post by Mary on Sept 2, 2014 1:43:52 GMT -5
The money matter will never be discussed openly because it is against the very religion that they preach. The overseer has large amounts of money with no accountability to anyone. The money is in chosen members bank accounts so that the money can't be traced to the religion or the workers. Yes, taxes are paid on it as it is reported to the government each year, but it is reported as belonging to the member who is holding it. That is totally untrue. The workers also receive monthly social security checks, which means it has to be reported to the government. If it is said to be used for charity I don't know, but so much for the preaching of being penniless. The workers then receive medicare, the health care from the government. So much for the preaching of going out two by two with nothing. The teaching of the religion of not collecting money is also cloudy. They collect money, they just do it sneaky. Shake the workers hand after a gospel meeting and it is expected to have money past. That is a well known fact. I love the old excuse, they will be held accountable on judgment day. But, in the mean time, we'll deceive as many as possible on our exact actions. The trust funds weren't even admitted until it became so well known, they had to admit it. But it is still done with deceit by not claiming it and not acknowledging who has what and how much and where it goes and what they own and what convention grounds do they own and etc. So much for the church built with hands. And, if you are blind sided by going along with the deceit, that is your problem. The workers also receive monthly social security checks
Completely wrong in our country. Only workers no longer able to preach get any government assistance. NO active worker gets social security. Shake the workers hand after a gospel meeting and it is expected to have money past. That is a well known factAgain completely wrong. In 50 odd years of attending meetings every week I have NEVER seen or felt that any worker expects money.When they stay in our home I NEVER get any feeling that they want money. Recently I offered workers some money and they told me very nicely that actually at the moment they didn't really need it but would I consider sending it overseas to somewhere they knew had a need. Hardly grabbing what they could???
Workers expect free board and keep and a car and meals at the friends houses. They ring asking to come for a meal. To me that is the same as asking for money. I don't see ministers in other churches inviting themselves to peoples houses for meals.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 3:35:31 GMT -5
The workers also receive monthly social security checks
Completely wrong in our country. Only workers no longer able to preach get any government assistance. NO active worker gets social security. Shake the workers hand after a gospel meeting and it is expected to have money past. That is a well known factAgain completely wrong. In 50 odd years of attending meetings every week I have NEVER seen or felt that any worker expects money.When they stay in our home I NEVER get any feeling that they want money. Recently I offered workers some money and they told me very nicely that actually at the moment they didn't really need it but would I consider sending it overseas to somewhere they knew had a need. Hardly grabbing what they could???
Workers expect free board and keep and a car and meals at the friends houses. They ring asking to come for a meal. To me that is the same as asking for money. I don't see ministers in other churches inviting themselves to peoples houses for meals. isn't it wonderful that we don't complain about that but love to have them grace our table, God loves a cheerful giver but don't think much of complainers. love is a wonderful thing it frees one from all the negative of man
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 2, 2014 3:41:57 GMT -5
Workers expect free board and keep and a car and meals at the friends houses. They ring asking to come for a meal. To me that is the same as asking for money. I don't see ministers in other churches inviting themselves to peoples houses for meals. isn't it wonderful that we don't complain about that but love to have them grace our table, God loves a cheerful giver but don't think much of complainers. love is a wonderful thing it frees one from all the negative of man Virgo what is so wonderful about having workers grace our table ? Shouldn't we feel the same no matter who it is? Or are workers above others in your opinion ?
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Post by fred on Sept 2, 2014 4:17:26 GMT -5
Workers expect free board and keep and a car and meals at the friends houses. They ring asking to come for a meal. To me that is the same as asking for money. I don't see ministers in other churches inviting themselves to peoples houses for meals. Yes, I think people forget this. In some instances, you might get a few hours notice, or sometimes less, that they are coming over for a meal. As you say a church minister would never ask themselves over for a meal. With about 2 hours notice one fellow rang up and requested that we take him to a specific restaurant for dinner before the Wed night meeting. Who does that?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 4:49:20 GMT -5
Yes, I think people forget this. In some instances, you might get a few hours notice, or sometimes less, that they are coming over for a meal. As you say a church minister would never ask themselves over for a meal. With about 2 hours notice one fellow rang up and requested that we take him to a specific restaurant for dinner before the Wed night meeting. Who does that? there is a simple way fixing that, not able to at this time :)but would love to another time
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 4:51:57 GMT -5
isn't it wonderful that we don't complain about that but love to have them grace our table, God loves a cheerful giver but don't think much of complainers. love is a wonderful thing it frees one from all the negative of man Virgo what is so wonderful about having workers grace our table ? Shouldn't we feel the same no matter who it is? Or are workers above others in your opinion ? lovely twist of my words there Dotty
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Post by stevnz on Sept 2, 2014 5:25:11 GMT -5
Workers expect free board and keep and a car and meals at the friends houses. They ring asking to come for a meal. To me that is the same as asking for money. I don't see ministers in other churches inviting themselves to peoples houses for meals. Yes, I think people forget this. In some instances, you might get a few hours notice, or sometimes less, that they are coming over for a meal. As you say a church minister would never ask themselves over for a meal. These perceptions might depend on how friendly the workers are, and how much notice is given. Ours are generally very friendly and pleasant and give ample notice. They accommodate our family schedule to find a suitable date. It doesn't feel like they expect hospitality or that their visits are improper or unacceptable. Most friends would be concerned if the workers didn't arrange a visit.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 2, 2014 8:22:31 GMT -5
Sorry all, Review would like me to note that members of the 2x2s give to the ministry because of the deep spiritual dimension that exists between the members and the workers, and the members' desire to support the ministry. If anyone can shed light on how this is different to other christians tithing in support of their ministries, I'd be grateful. I can only conclude that Review believes no such spiritual dimension can or does exist in any other church. As evident from this and your other writings and posts, Review, you have either little respect or indeed ill will towards other churches and Christians. Elizabeth As I understand it- tithing is giving a percentage of your income which would equal a set amount. The difference is: We are never asked for money, no collection is made and we choose how, when, how much and to whom we give the money . There may be other churches that do just as we do, but that doesn't alter what we do and the reason we do it.I have never heard it preached that we are the only ones that don't take collections or have an unpaid ministry, but they do preach that this is how it should be. What review said is my story. 'I give to the ministry because of the deep spiritual dimension that exists between the members and the workers, and my desire to support the ministry.' Hi ReallyandTruly, Yes, a lot of Christians would give tithing as a percentage of their income, but mostly for personal accountability in "giving to the Lord". We are not asked to give a percentage. It is extremely rare for churches to dictate what/how much should be given by members, and most churches do not ask for money. Yes, a collection is usually taken. This is biblical, and I have no problem with it at all. Nobody should have an idea of who is giving how much. I personally really dislike the "plate" that is passed in some churches, as givings can be clearly seen. Many congregations uses a fabric bag so that what is dropped inside is not seen. Re your comments about preaching - it was my experience over many years in the group that it was a point of pride that the workers are unpaid. I often heard references to "hirelings" in other churches, with much derogatory comment made about any other form of Christian church, particularly the fact that they took collections, while workers did not. It was commonly made to sound that other churches only existed for money. This, and other forms of negative comment about other churches being of the devil, has, very sadly, conditioned most people within the fellowship to never have any form of involvement with any other Christians. It has caused, and continues to cause, shunning and fracturing of families. I note you made a strong comment denying that the workers are "money grubbing". I don't know anyone who would disagree with you on this. I think we all agree that the workers are not seeking money or trying to amass money. I do not recall anyone on here referring to them as being "money grubbing". I have not accused them of this. I do not think overseers are secretly living the high life (well, maybe one or two who took off with the kitty at some stage). However, it appears extremely likely that time and circumstance and habit have created a cash pool of large quantity, held in secret by a few top individuals. Frankly, I can't imagine this being the case in Jesus' ministry which they seek to emulate. My bottom line point is this - the workers can't have it both ways. They shouldn't claim to be an unpaid, homeless ministry which takes no collection while quietly amassing money on the side of which there is no general knowledge and accountability. They should either a) practise exactly what they preach, and only ever accept enough for their immediate needs, genuinely going forward "in faith"; or b) admit that money is needed for many practical reasons (conventions, health care, travel), and consider ways to ensure proper use and accountability. A model that enables the top man (overseer) to be accountable to absolutely no one is not prudent. Neglecting prudent stewardship, transparency and accountability, and claiming exemption on the basis of special spiritual knowledge or deeply spiritual reasons is, I'm sure you will find, the claim and practice of many cults.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 2, 2014 8:33:23 GMT -5
Yes, I think people forget this. In some instances, you might get a few hours notice, or sometimes less, that they are coming over for a meal. As you say a church minister would never ask themselves over for a meal. These perceptions might depend on how friendly the workers are, and how much notice is given. Ours are generally very friendly and pleasant and give ample notice. They accommodate our family schedule to find a suitable date. It doesn't feel like they expect hospitality or that their visits are improper or unacceptable. Most friends would be concerned if the workers didn't arrange a visit. I think what is far more difficult is the workers living continuously in someone's house, expecting food and board. It is a particular imposition on the privacy of a family, and often a financial burden as well. More recently I have heard of the difficulties this can create for a family, particularly the wife, who feels that she must always provide a high standard of meal at greater expense (ie. no baked beans quick meals), and the cost involved in having extra people in the home long term who do not contribute financially to that home. This is not an easy situation for workers, either. They know they are not supposed to financially contribute to the home in which they stay, but surely they must sometimes be aware of the imposition and financial burden they put on their hosts. It seems quite unfair that the cost of supporting the workers is not shared more equitably, especially when money collected for their support is sitting in bank accounts. I would go so far as to suggest that this was never the Biblical model. Jesus sent his disciples out in the instances we read about on very short term missions only, to the places he himself was about to come. All of this was leading to the fulfilment of the gospel - his crucifixion and resurrection. There is nothing to suggest that ministers of the gospel were permanently homeless or permanently relying on others for their food and board. On the contrary, we read that the worker is worth his wages; the preacher should be supported by their gospel work.
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Post by rational on Sept 2, 2014 9:17:45 GMT -5
Elizabeth As I understand it- tithing is giving a percentage of your income which would equal a set amount. Strictly speaking, by definition a tithe is a one-tenth given as a contribution to a religious organization. If your are making $50,000 a year your tithe would be $5,000. This, I would think, should be the reason, the only reason, anyone donates to a church.
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Post by penguin on Sept 2, 2014 12:23:28 GMT -5
I don't know in the NT church how scriptural it was to have collections, but I think looking at Acts a part of the ministry was to provide for the needy eg widows and fatherless. At that time there was no insurance company, no pension system nor social security,and part of the charity of the church members was to help provide to these people.
As to the apostles it does say something about the laborer being worthy of his hire, and if workers would want to eat or stay with us then they can, and live like us, but if they expect better than we normally have they would be a bit disappointed, there's no point spoiling them, too many people do - and that's what inflates their egos and gives the problems that we all hear about.
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Post by emy on Sept 2, 2014 13:49:54 GMT -5
................. I don't see ministers in other churches inviting themselves to peoples houses for meals. I think you may be mistaken. Or maybe that is something out of the past.
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Post by emy on Sept 2, 2014 14:09:12 GMT -5
More recently I have heard of the difficulties this can create for a family, particularly the wife, who feels that she must always provide a high standard of meal at greater expense (ie. no baked beans quick meals), and the cost involved in having extra people in the home long term who do not contribute financially to that home.
I can't count how many workers have been pleased when I have served soup, mac and cheese, hotdogs and such! They love having simple meals. In our case it's not a matter of necessity, but my policy is that for the most part, they eat what we eat. This is in cases of spending a few days, not just coming for a planned meal. In that case, we serve them as we would any other guests.
Also, I am very aware that workers sometimes take the supplies for a meal when they visit homes that have hardship - financial or otherwise. I am even aware of one family being paid for something they intended as a donation to convention, because the overseer knew the donation was more than they could reasonably afford.
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Post by Mary on Sept 2, 2014 15:52:32 GMT -5
Workers expect free board and keep and a car and meals at the friends houses. They ring asking to come for a meal. To me that is the same as asking for money. I don't see ministers in other churches inviting themselves to peoples houses for meals. isn't it wonderful that we don't complain about that but love to have them grace our table, God loves a cheerful giver but don't think much of complainers. love is a wonderful thing it frees one from all the negative of man But it is different if you are expected to give money though, suddenly that is wrong and evil. Don't you think church members love supporting their ministers in what ever way they can, whether it be giving money, having them around etc. Yes God loves a cheerful giver so why so many complaints when it comes to money. I'm referring to the way professing people look down on those in churches who give. Also they were told not to be a burden on people and the workers place themselves in a position where they are a burden on people. People have to care for them. Your dreaming when you say 'you' don't complain, I heard plenty of complaints from people who had to house the workers and workers visits and this is from well thought of 'saints'. The flowery words in your post gives me a sick feeling of saying one, thing doing another. Kind of rote learning from the cradle. The workers expect free board and keep. It is their expectation when they go into the work that they will live free, hardly living by faith. But if ministers have any expectation they are considered wrong. Double standard to me. They convince people they are going out by faith when they are not. Again deception to outsiders.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2014 15:59:02 GMT -5
isn't it wonderful that we don't complain about that but love to have them grace our table, God loves a cheerful giver but don't think much of complainers. love is a wonderful thing it frees one from all the negative of man But it is different if you are expected to give money though, suddenly that is wrong and evil. Don't you think church members love supporting their ministers in what ever way they can, whether it be giving money, having them around etc. Yes God loves a cheerful giver so why so many complaints when it comes to money. I'm referring to the way professing people look down on those in churches who give. Also they were told not to be a burden on people and the workers place themselves in a position where they are a burden on people. People have to care for them. Your dreaming when you say 'you' don't complain, I heard plenty of complaints from people who had to house the workers and workers visits and this is from well thought of 'saints'. The flowery words in your post gives me a sick feeling of saying one, thing doing another. Kind of rote learning from the cradle. The workers expect free board and keep. It is their expectation when they go into the work that they will live free, hardly living by faith. But if ministers have any expectation they are considered wrong. Double standard to me. They convince people they are going out by faith when they are not. Again deception to outsiders. i'm with virgo it is always a blessing to have to workers stay, we have never complained. we even wish they could stay with us longer...
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Post by Mary on Sept 2, 2014 16:02:31 GMT -5
The ironic part is that they condemn churches who ask for money (I have never heard a minister ask for money for himself) while at the same time the workers ring up and ask to come for a meal. Asking to come to someones place for a meal is not acceptable behavior in any ones books bu then most workers social skills are badly lacking.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 2, 2014 17:01:14 GMT -5
isn't it wonderful that we don't complain about that but love to have them grace our table, God loves a cheerful giver but don't think much of complainers. love is a wonderful thing it frees one from all the negative of man But it is different if you are expected to give money though, suddenly that is wrong and evil. Don't you think church members love supporting their ministers in what ever way they can, whether it be giving money, having them around etc. Yes God loves a cheerful giver so why so many complaints when it comes to money. I'm referring to the way professing people look down on those in churches who give. Also they were told not to be a burden on people and the workers place themselves in a position where they are a burden on people. People have to care for them. Your dreaming when you say 'you' don't complain, I heard plenty of complaints from people who had to house the workers and workers visits and this is from well thought of 'saints'. The flowery words in your post gives me a sick feeling of saying one, thing doing another. Kind of rote learning from the cradle. The workers expect free board and keep. It is their expectation when they go into the work that they will live free, hardly living by faith. But if ministers have any expectation they are considered wrong. Double standard to me. They convince people they are going out by faith when they are not. Again deception to outsiders. I think it would help if we were to look at the charity the workers have to accept every day of their ministry! Think about that. Most adults would have been raised to know that one doesn't eat if one doesn't have a paying job. So when some of these same said adults go into the work and they cannot expect a set salary, but will participate with and in the friends' largesse, it becomes a struggle for some of these workers to be able to set down and accept that gift. Also some friends give the workers more money, their car, their cell phones, clothing etc because these friends have more money then other friends. This puts another burden on the workers they have to fight to not feel very laden unto the ones who give the most money and thus spend more of their time with and for them....it is a problem for the workers.....the workers lifes are not easy.....although with the friends all making more money then some 50 yrs. ago, the workers are more able not to be partial to any one family!
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Post by Mary on Sept 2, 2014 17:16:35 GMT -5
None of that is the issue. The issue is that they condemn churches for having collections and paying ministers from that so they can live without being a burden on others. And they condemn churches who ask for money when the workers ask for meals. It makes sense that people give what they want or can rather than the workers ringing people asking for money - I mean meals. There is no difference. I have never heard a minister ask for money for himself. I have though had workers ring and ask to come for a meal. Its their condemnation of others and self righeousness that is also ungodly behaviour.
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