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Post by stevnz on Sept 1, 2014 3:17:10 GMT -5
Elizabeth, I'd be interested to know if you find someone from the fellowship with whom you are able to have mutually beneficial and good dialogue with. Should it happen kindly pm me. regards and wishes review 005 Reallyandtruly posted “ As someone who IS part of this way, I give money when I'm moved to and I have no desire to see a written account of what happens to that money. I give that money KNOWING that it will be used at the workers discretion and I am totally happy with that. If I wasn't I wouldn't give it. In discussion with some of our personal friends I know that they all feel the same.
I have seen no evidence here of money being spent in an inappropriate way here. If any of the members of the church are not happy with the way the finances are controlled then don't need to give. They are perfectly free to donate their money to charity, to give directly to those they feel are in need or hold on to their money. NO one is going to chase them for their donation.” My responses to Elizabeth's questions in the OP are: 1. How much money did you collect from the friends in your state this year, including from deceased estates? I am not interested in the total amount collected. However it would be sensible to know if there has been a major bequest so the church could discuss and agree the best use of such funds, or if they have been tagged for a particular use, whether the bequest should be declined.
2. How much money do you currently know about which is stockpiled in bank accounts, collected from the friends? It seems that only the few [unnamed] elders who manage the funds and perhaps the head worker are aware of how much has been accumulated. There are a limited number of well-known cases of abuse of such funds.
Friends don’t generally know who actually manages the funds. There is likely to be concern and discussion if members became aware that substantial funds had been accumulated over a period of years. 3. What form of accountability is there for those holding the money? Is this information disclosed to anyone? If so, whom? The only accountability is to the overseer for the area. This has resulted in misuse of funds in some cases and should be changed.
4. What form of accountability is there for those spending the money? There does not seem to be any accountability for spending. There is total reliance on the overseer being ‘lead by God’.
5. Is it reasonable for members of an organisation to be informed on the income, expenditure and activities of its leaders and the funds provided to them by members? Most members seem uninterested in such matters but that would probably change if there was awareness of how much has accumulated and if that is increasing each year.
6. Why do you slander churches for accepting money from their members when you do the same? I find it offensive to hear criticism of other churches for focusing on money when I know that many churches do not do so.
7. Why do you slander churches for having their own purpose built facilities when you have your own purpose built convention grounds all over the world? I find this hypocrisy offensive.
8. Why do you take money from your members but fail to provide any form of accountability to your members on how this money is used? It is necessary in a practical sense to accept donations to pay for daily living costs.
Most members of the fellowship wouldn’t expect any major level of accountability. However it concerns some people when they see workers with a bulging wallet or designer sunglasses / clothing, or anything else that is beyond the means of members of the fellowship.
9. Why do you seek to hide every aspect of money management from your members rather than acting with transparency, integrity and accountability, declaring income and expenditure through financial statements to those who provide this money to the ministry? Hiding things is unhealthy and can allow misuse, as has happened in a limited number of cases in the past. In some jurisdictions such as UK, donations to the fellowship have to be declared to the Revenue authorities. Members are not aware whether these legal obligations are being complied with.
10. Are you willing to answer any of these questions? Jack Carroll taught that we should be open about these matters, both within the fellowship and also to non-members. However the ministry has a reluctance to disclose any details about finances. The lack of transparency regarding the financial affairs of our church promotes a climate of suspicion and leads to allegations against the overseers, which may be unjustified. But how do we know?
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Post by stevnz on Sept 1, 2014 3:20:02 GMT -5
I am impressed by the model shown in Acts 6, where the apostles openly delegated the appointment of trustees/deacons to the church members, “while we give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” [NIV We will turn this responsibility over to them and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.] As Paul said, when he delegated the handling of financial gifts to a brother elected by the friends, “avoiding this, that no man should blame us in this abundance which is administered by us: providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men” [ NIV We want to avoid any criticism of the way we administer this liberal gift. For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man.] We could also consider Acts 2:44 All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45 They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. what do you think they are going to do with the millions? I have no idea what they are going to do with accumulated funds. The only apparent expenditure is on overseas travel and convention grounds.
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Post by Greg on Sept 1, 2014 3:46:18 GMT -5
Jack Carroll taught that we should be open about these matters, both within the fellowship and also to non-members. However the ministry has a reluctance to disclose any details about finances. The lack of transparency regarding the financial affairs of our church promotes a climate of suspicion and leads to allegations against the overseers, which may be unjustified. But how do we know? From sermon attributed to Jack Carroll: "The fourth question I would like to answer is, "Where does the money come from that enables the preachers to live, to travel to foreign countries, and to return? When you talk about the workers coming and going, your friends will tell you that all of this takes money, and it does. When they ask you where the money comes from you say, "Oh the Lord provides it." Why not tell them plainly just where it comes from? It just comes from you. Money as a means of exchange is used to enable workers to live, to travel to foreign lands; and it comes as a spontaneous, unsolicited, freewill offering of God's children. If you don't love to do it, the law doesn't accept it. When workers go forth they get rid of everything they possess. Money thus surrendered is scattered so that it can never be theirs again. It is gone for good, and it is used to minister to our brethren abroad, or to bring them back from foreign fields, or to send others there. Occasionally God's children who set their affairs in order and whom the Lord takes home remember an individual worker with gifts of money, or sometimes they leave them a piece of property. But that money is scattered in the furtherance of the Gospel and that property is sold and the money it brings us scattered in the same way, so that no gift can ever enrich any individual worker. When you are asked this by friends, "What is the fundamental difference between our ministry and every other? Why do workers travel so much? Why is it necessary for those who go from us to return again? Where does the money come from?" I hope you will feel free to be frank and candid with them, so that you won't convey the impression that this is some kind of a great secret society you are in. We teach nothing in private that we are not prepared to proclaim from the house tops to all men, for anything we teach can be read by all men in the pages of God's own book." Nothing there about disclosure of any amounts. Basically, the friends give to the workers and the powers-that-be workers use their discretion on how best to use the money throughout the fellowship/church.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 3:49:24 GMT -5
what do you think they are going to do with the millions? I have no idea what they are going to do with accumulated funds. The only apparent expenditure is on overseas travel and convention grounds. do you have an idea how many millions? is the ministry buying convention grounds? if so is there any evidence of such?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 3:52:00 GMT -5
Jack Carroll taught that we should be open about these matters, both within the fellowship and also to non-members. However the ministry has a reluctance to disclose any details about finances. The lack of transparency regarding the financial affairs of our church promotes a climate of suspicion and leads to allegations against the overseers, which may be unjustified. But how do we know? From sermon attributed to Jack Carroll: "The fourth question I would like to answer is, "Where does the money come from that enables the preachers to live, to travel to foreign countries, and to return? When you talk about the workers coming and going, your friends will tell you that all of this takes money, and it does. When they ask you where the money comes from you say, "Oh the Lord provides it." Why not tell them plainly just where it comes from? It just comes from you. Money as a means of exchange is used to enable workers to live, to travel to foreign lands; and it comes as a spontaneous, unsolicited, freewill offering of God's children. If you don't love to do it, the law doesn't accept it. When workers go forth they get rid of everything they possess. Money thus surrendered is scattered so that it can never be theirs again. It is gone for good, and it is used to minister to our brethren abroad, or to bring them back from foreign fields, or to send others there. Occasionally God's children who set their affairs in order and whom the Lord takes home remember an individual worker with gifts of money, or sometimes they leave them a piece of property. But that money is scattered in the furtherance of the Gospel and that property is sold and the money it brings us scattered in the same way, so that no gift can ever enrich any individual worker. When you are asked this by friends, "What is the fundamental difference between our ministry and every other? Why do workers travel so much? Why is it necessary for those who go from us to return again? Where does the money come from?" I hope you will feel free to be frank and candid with them, so that you won't convey the impression that this is some kind of a great secret society you are in. We teach nothing in private that we are not prepared to proclaim from the house tops to all men, for anything we teach can be read by all men in the pages of God's own book." Nothing there about disclosure of any amounts. Basically, the friends give to the workers and the powers-that-be workers use their discretion on how best to use the money throughout the fellowship/church. Greg were you a worker once?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 3:53:50 GMT -5
what do you think they are going to do with the millions? I have no idea what they are going to do with accumulated funds. The only apparent expenditure is on overseas travel and convention grounds. so in that case accumulated funds in the millions would be of no use to them?
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Post by Greg on Sept 1, 2014 3:55:52 GMT -5
Greg were you a worker once? Yes.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 4:47:11 GMT -5
Greg were you a worker once? Yes. how did you find the money was handled? did you know if money was being hoarded? if so what sort of amounts?
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Post by stevnz on Sept 1, 2014 4:53:45 GMT -5
Jack Carroll taught that we should be open about these matters, both within the fellowship and also to non-members. However the ministry has a reluctance to disclose any details about finances. The lack of transparency regarding the financial affairs of our church promotes a climate of suspicion and leads to allegations against the overseers, which may be unjustified. But how do we know? From sermon attributed to Jack Carroll: "The fourth question I would like to answer is, "Where does the money come from that enables the preachers to live, to travel to foreign countries, and to return? When you talk about the workers coming and going, your friends will tell you that all of this takes money, and it does. When they ask you where the money comes from you say, "Oh the Lord provides it." Why not tell them plainly just where it comes from? It just comes from you. Money as a means of exchange is used to enable workers to live, to travel to foreign lands; and it comes as a spontaneous, unsolicited, freewill offering of God's children. If you don't love to do it, the law doesn't accept it. When workers go forth they get rid of everything they possess. Money thus surrendered is scattered so that it can never be theirs again. It is gone for good, and it is used to minister to our brethren abroad, or to bring them back from foreign fields, or to send others there. Occasionally God's children who set their affairs in order and whom the Lord takes home remember an individual worker with gifts of money, or sometimes they leave them a piece of property. But that money is scattered in the furtherance of the Gospel and that property is sold and the money it brings us scattered in the same way, so that no gift can ever enrich any individual worker. When you are asked this by friends, "What is the fundamental difference between our ministry and every other? Why do workers travel so much? Why is it necessary for those who go from us to return again? Where does the money come from?" I hope you will feel free to be frank and candid with them, so that you won't convey the impression that this is some kind of a great secret society you are in. We teach nothing in private that we are not prepared to proclaim from the house tops to all men, for anything we teach can be read by all men in the pages of God's own book." Nothing there about disclosure of any amounts. Basically, the friends give to the workers and the powers-that-be workers use their discretion on how best to use the money throughout the fellowship/church. Correct: Jack didn't talk about accumulation of funds. he talked of it being scattered. " Occasionally God's children who set their affairs in order and whom the Lord takes home remember an individual worker with gifts of money, or sometimes they leave them a piece of property. But that money is scattered in the furtherance of the Gospel and that property is sold and the money it brings us scattered in the same way, so that no gift can ever enrich any individual worker. "Perhaps funds didn't accumulate back then. As well as the extract you quoted, he said: Many of you have been asked questions during the past year about your preachers and a number have found it difficult to give satisfactory answers to these questions. Some have conveyed the impression that there are things about the ministry that they are not prepared to tell others, and possibly have left the impression in the minds of the air friends that this is some kind of a secret or semi-secret fellowship that they have been brought into. I would like to dispel once and for all any such impressions, so that you will feel absolutely free to answer any questions your friends may ask about God's people or about His servants, for we hold nothing in secret that we are not prepared to preach openly. We hold nothing that we are not prepared to tell you from this platform, and are quite indifferent as to whether or not what we say is listened to by those who are not yet numbered among us, for everything that we hold and everything that we teach is to be found within the pages of God's own Book, which is open to all men.
I want to talk to you very frankly, and freely, to make you feel we are anxious to take you into our fullest confidence and tell you all that is in our hearts for as I grow older, I recognize more clearly and fully that our fellowship with and confidence in each other depends to a very large extent upon us being absolutely frank and open so that there is no room for any misunderstanding.
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Post by Greg on Sept 1, 2014 5:15:58 GMT -5
how did you find the money was handled? did you know if money was being hoarded? if so what sort of amounts? When I entered the work I turned money over to the overseer and shortly later was given $300. After a year I turned money over to the overseer and shortly later received $300. After a second year (in another state) I turned money over to the overseer and shortly later received $300. Also after the second year and after conventions in ND I turned money over to the overseer and received $300. I left the work about 4 months later. The first overseer after my second year approached me with an open paper bag. With a chuckle he said "I've come to rob you." I did not know what he meant. I said, "You are welcome to all you can get." Just after that another worker informed me that the overseer wanted what I had left for money given to me through the past year. The second overseer that year told me that that whatever I had received during conventions should stay in the state. I knew little of money accumulations. Just assumed if there was "extra" it would be "banked". I was privy to a worker to receive a $10,000 inheritance. He asked the overseer if he should refuse it. The overseer said he should take it as it would do the ministry more good than to have it wasted by other family members.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 1, 2014 5:55:25 GMT -5
Stevnz - many thanks for your answers from the perspective of a lay member. Your input is valuable and frank.
The conclusion of my "open challenge" seems to be that accountability for finances within the group is pretty non-existent, and the extent of funds completely unknown except by a select few. Most give without seeming too worried about what happens to the funds. The overall level of accumulation is completely unknown.
Current workers/overseers have - from what members say - been extremely unwilling so far to reveal anything of the funds at their disposal, or how they are used from year to year. According to some reports, any form of accountability would be "anathema" to a lot of the friends.
According to other reports, some of the friends have queried the status quo, and expressed concern. This has been met with a negative response, and relevant overseers appear to have deflected or outright refused to give any information regarding the handling of financial matters, except to express that all members should place their full, unquestioning trust in the overseers as handlers of the funds.
So far, it appears that this would be the same the world over. There is no evidence to suggest that any overseer/worker anywhere in the world does things differently, and provides more accountability than another.
Greg, as a former worker here on TMB, confirms that there is no disclosure of amounts that the workers hold.
Virgo seems obsessed with finding out where the missing millions are, and what the workers are spending it on. Virgo, we'd all like to know!!
Review, as a worker of some years in different countries, says accountability is a non-issue because the fellowship is "different" to other churches, and therefore, it would seem, exempt. (Disclaimer: Review will say that this is an 'incorrect and unfactual statement' but will fail to say how).
Jack Carroll, as one of the original workers, was known to preach a sermon about frankness and openness when it came to money. Being in the earliest days of the group, it is likely that there was far less money at his disposal, and far less accumulated at that time.
However his brother Bill Carroll, in Australia, was set up in a house in Rosebud (on a bay, boat outside), in Victoria, during his worker retirement years, with a number of workers kept on as house servants each year in lieu of going out to preach. His very comfortable lifestyle caused enough friction in the state of Victoria, Australia to cause a major split, which took several years (and the intervention of overseas workers) to fix. So even in those early days, funds must have been accumulating at a significant enough rate to support Bill's lifestyle, unless he had a private benefactor.
As time has gone on - more than 100 years on - a culture of complete non-disclosure of finances has steadily developed and become deeply entrenched in the culture. Contributions just from deceased estates alone over 100 years would by now be significant. Even most workers don't know what funds exist, with disclosure only seeming to come at the very highest echelons of power.
It would seem that the youngest and inexperienced workers spend as little as possible, and pass most money they are given up thru the ranks. They do not appear to be briefed on what funds might be available to them in time of significant need (health crisis, retirement etc.), and probably often go without some needs/wants rather than risk using donated money which belongs to the ministry rather than themselves. Some do find it hard to make ends meet,and may not know that the overseer has significant funds at this disposal. Most/all have an epiphany at some stage that there is a lot more money held by the workers than they ever realised.
It is acknowledged by all that there seems to be a significant rate of constant travel between countries by many workers, especially older ones. This alone would account for tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars per year just on travel. As far as denominations go, I suspect that the 2x2 fellowship would have one of the highest travel budgets of any church group anywhere.
Just my thoughts so far. Thanks to all for your input.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 1, 2014 6:04:49 GMT -5
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Post by bubbles on Sept 1, 2014 6:22:36 GMT -5
Haha
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Post by bubbles on Sept 1, 2014 12:35:11 GMT -5
Review005
Im interested in your comment spiritual dimension. Can you expound for me please?
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Post by jhjmr on Sept 1, 2014 14:10:39 GMT -5
The money matter will never be discussed openly because it is against the very religion that they preach. The overseer has large amounts of money with no accountability to anyone. The money is in chosen members bank accounts so that the money can't be traced to the religion or the workers. Yes, taxes are paid on it as it is reported to the government each year, but it is reported as belonging to the member who is holding it. That is totally untrue. The workers also receive monthly social security checks, which means it has to be reported to the government. If it is said to be used for charity I don't know, but so much for the preaching of being penniless. The workers then receive medicare, the health care from the government. So much for the preaching of going out two by two with nothing. The teaching of the religion of not collecting money is also cloudy. They collect money, they just do it sneaky. Shake the workers hand after a gospel meeting and it is expected to have money past. That is a well known fact. I love the old excuse, they will be held accountable on judgment day. But, in the mean time, we'll deceive as many as possible on our exact actions. The trust funds weren't even admitted until it became so well known, they had to admit it. But it is still done with deceit by not claiming it and not acknowledging who has what and how much and where it goes and what they own and what convention grounds do they own and etc. So much for the church built with hands. And, if you are blind sided by going along with the deceit, that is your problem.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2014 16:02:39 GMT -5
The money matter will never be discussed openly because it is against the very religion that they preach. The overseer has large amounts of money with no accountability to anyone. The money is in chosen members bank accounts so that the money can't be traced to the religion or the workers. Yes, taxes are paid on it as it is reported to the government each year, but it is reported as belonging to the member who is holding it. That is totally untrue. The workers also receive monthly social security checks, which means it has to be reported to the government. If it is said to be used for charity I don't know, but so much for the preaching of being penniless. The workers then receive medicare, the health care from the government. So much for the preaching of going out two by two with nothing. The teaching of the religion of not collecting money is also cloudy. They collect money, they just do it sneaky. Shake the workers hand after a gospel meeting and it is expected to have money past. That is a well known fact. I love the old excuse, they will be held accountable on judgment day. But, in the mean time, we'll deceive as many as possible on our exact actions. The trust funds weren't even admitted until it became so well known, they had to admit it. But it is still done with deceit by not claiming it and not acknowledging who has what and how much and where it goes and what they own and what convention grounds do they own and etc. So much for the church built with hands. And, if you are blind sided by going along with the deceit, that is your problem. i am reminded of this verse: Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. thats good enough for me... disclaimer: this is not meant as a threat its simply showing what God said on the matter concerning jhjmr's concern over the workers mishandling money...
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Post by rational on Sept 1, 2014 16:31:18 GMT -5
The workers also receive monthly social security checks, which means it has to be reported to the government. Unless the worker(s) were employed and paid into the social security system how could they claim any benefits?
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Post by stevnz on Sept 1, 2014 17:05:20 GMT -5
The workers also receive monthly social security checks, which means it has to be reported to the government. Unless the worker(s) were employed and paid into the social security system how could they claim any benefits? In New Zealand every person receives a Government pension if they - are aged 65 or over
- are a New Zealand citizen or permanent resident
- normally live in New Zealand at the time you apply.
You must also have lived in New Zealand for at least 10 years since you turned 20. Five of those years must be since you turned 50. The highest rate of payment is $733/fortnight (after tax) for a single person living alone. Workers who are unable to continue because of age/ill health are able to receive this pension. If appropriate, a person can arrange to live in a rest home. In that case the full cost of the rest home is paid by the government and the person only receives $86/fortnight (after tax) for incidental items not supplied by the rest home, such as replacement clothing etc.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 1, 2014 17:27:35 GMT -5
The workers also receive monthly social security checks, which means it has to be reported to the government. Unless the worker(s) were employed and paid into the social security system how could they claim any benefits? Again, people are confusing the SSI which is SUPPLEMENTAL SECURITY INCOME or used to be state welfare WITH Social Security which IS the funds which WORKING people pay taxes into so that when they retire they can apply and receive those Social Security benefits they've contributed all their working days. Perhaps the country needs to name the SSI something else or maybe the mistake people make is what the country wants them to think? Used to the poor folks in a state could apply to the state and receive a "welfare check"....that finished and done away with, but people in poor need can apply and receive SSI payments which usually run about $250.00 or at least in this area they do. That isn't much money at all and IF the workers want to claim that for themselves when they can no longer "work" in the work...I have NO problem with them obtaining those funds for they are like other people who have not paid into the SS funds and cannot obtain the Social security retirement benefits.
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Post by stevnz on Sept 1, 2014 17:34:05 GMT -5
stevnz said "Many (?)members would like to know whether the ministry does currently need funds for its operations or whether the ministry has accumulated substantial funds. If it has, the members could increase their charitable giving to other charities such as Red Cross or to personal cases of need."Jack Carroll said "We do not live on charity. If any of God's professed people came to us and offered us food, clothing shelter as an act of charity, we would refuse it, for we are not living on charity. But if they came to us in His name and as an expression of their love and interest in the furtherance of the Gospel, recognising that we have fulfilled the conditions that justified us in living by the Gospel, it is our duty to accept, knowing that a cup of cold water given to one of the least of God servants will in no wise lose its reward on that day."
For stevnz to quote Jack Carroll in support of his approach is ? My observation is that the first quote above is with human (humanitarian)thinking and reasoning.... and nothing humanly wrong with it. I observe others for whom support of the ministry has a spiritual dimension. They would be insulted if it was suggested to them that they juggle supporting the ministry with other charitable giving. Such people I guess were those that expressed their rejection of what Alan mentioned of the contents of a letter he received. Your comments can only be reconciled by presuming that I lack the 'spiritual dimension; that you write about. That is your view, not mine. I don't understand how your suggested insult could arise. Most families have limited budgets. Sometimes extremely limited. However they still willingly support the ministry financially. However if the ministry did not need or want such donations (perhaps because of the excess that has accumulated) then families could decide whether to spend an additional amount on their own family or to follow other charitable options, including poor people within and outside the fellowship, and other publicly recognised charities. Jack Carroll had an interesting perspective on giving to workers; he saw it not as charity (i.e. giving in love with no expectation of return benefit) but as deserving payment for the work that had been done. Jesus taught that the Laborer is worthy of his hire. That is often quoted to us, and Paul in 1 Cor. 9:14 said, "The Lord has ordained that they which preach the Gospel should live by the Gospel."
... it is a pleasure to minister to them food, clothing, shelter and as a means of exchange, money in His name.
Jesus labored as a carpenter and lived by the work of His hands as a carpenter for eight years, but for 3 1/2 years He lived "by the Gospel" and got His bread as a preacher of the Gospel just as honorably as He did as a carpenter. Jesus did not live on charity. Those that live on charity find nothing in return; Jesus always gave more than He received. If He received hospitality from Matthew the Publican, from Simon the Pharisee, or from Lazarus the brother of Mary and Martha, He always gave more than He received, and in this He left for us an example that we should follow in his steps.
We do not live on charity. If any of God's professed people came to us and offered us food, clothing shelter as an act of charity, we would refuse it, for we are not living on charity. But if they came to us in His name and as an expression of their love and interest in the furtherance of the Gospel, recognising that we have fulfilled the conditions that justified us in living by the Gospel, it is our duty to accept, knowing that a cup of cold water given to one of the least of God servants will in no wise lose its reward on that day.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 1, 2014 17:46:47 GMT -5
Elizabeth Appreciate your summary! I note your inability to include the spiritual dimension that members of the fellowship have in their support of the ministry. With that included it quite changes the picture you present! As evident from your other writings and posts it is evident you carry considerable ill will towards the fellowship. It is interesting for me as a member of the group to read of such a person's perception and perspective. Thanks! Sorry all, Review would like me to note that members of the 2x2s give to the ministry because of the deep spiritual dimension that exists between the members and the workers, and the members' desire to support the ministry. If anyone can shed light on how this is different to other christians tithing in support of their ministries, I'd be grateful. I can only conclude that Review believes no such spiritual dimension can or does exist in any other church. As evident from this and your other writings and posts, Review, you have either little respect or indeed ill will towards other churches and Christians.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 1, 2014 18:00:55 GMT -5
The money matter will never be discussed openly because it is against the very religion that they preach. The overseer has large amounts of money with no accountability to anyone. The money is in chosen members bank accounts so that the money can't be traced to the religion or the workers. Yes, taxes are paid on it as it is reported to the government each year, but it is reported as belonging to the member who is holding it. That is totally untrue. The workers also receive monthly social security checks, which means it has to be reported to the government. If it is said to be used for charity I don't know, but so much for the preaching of being penniless. The workers then receive medicare, the health care from the government. So much for the preaching of going out two by two with nothing. The teaching of the religion of not collecting money is also cloudy. They collect money, they just do it sneaky. Shake the workers hand after a gospel meeting and it is expected to have money past. That is a well known fact. I love the old excuse, they will be held accountable on judgment day. But, in the mean time, we'll deceive as many as possible on our exact actions. The trust funds weren't even admitted until it became so well known, they had to admit it. But it is still done with deceit by not claiming it and not acknowledging who has what and how much and where it goes and what they own and what convention grounds do they own and etc. So much for the church built with hands. And, if you are blind sided by going along with the deceit, that is your problem. JHJMR! You have a misunderstanding about the state/federal funds that workers may or may not be able to apply for. UNLESS a worker has at least 3 quarters of payroll taxes paid, he/she will not ever receive Social Security here in the US. NOR will they be able to use Medicare which is the health insurance under the Social Security administration. However, people who have not worked or may have worked but never paid payroll taxes can apply to the state they've lived in at least a year and likely receive a SSI fund benefit. That is the Supplemental Security Income fund. IT IS NOT associated with or under the Social Security. The average and most often found amount of this SSI given to people is about $250.00! Also these people who have NOT paid payroll taxes may apply and receive Medicaid...however Obamacare has made that to differ from state to state. Here in our state, Obamacare is just an extension of the state Medicaid fund. NOW here in the US, if any of the older brothers were drafted or volunteered for military service, they have been encouraged to sign up for Veterans' Benefits and I know a lot of them have done so. Anyone of the workers who have to go to assisted living or nursing home may apply and receive the Medicaid funds, but those funds will be paid directly to the owners of the Assisted Living or Nursing home.....and leaving about $40/mo. for personal needs for the person..... I have NO problem with the workers applying for the Supplemental Security INcome NOR applying for Medicaid. IF the general population is free to do so, then the workers are free to do also! I have found that few of the workers know anything about excess funds, they generally are given enough money to get to where they're going and if they need to return and their living needs...here in the states their living needs are not so great due to being able to stay every night in some friend's home! Gas for their car is their most important need. Whereas with the price of gas, I'd think having a bache and working a mission out of that area would be far more kinder to not only their pocketbooks but their body and their car....wouldn't it? The workers actually do need to start getting their own baches again, they need a place to settle down and be themselves, they have enough to contend with with one another..sometimes a companion is worse then another! I knew of an overseer who had excess funds after the state's conv. were over and he would generally send the funds to some poor country for friends and workers there OR he also would send it to some poor friends who were in a tight spot......he wasn't one to be holding a large amount of excess funding.......he said that tomorrow he might be broke, but the next day a letter was apt to enrich him. Laugh that was really funny the way he said it!
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Post by bubbles on Sept 1, 2014 19:30:49 GMT -5
Paul labored but also worked so he wouldnt be a burden on the people.
Not many ministries have this mindset sadly.
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Post by reallyandtruly on Sept 1, 2014 20:40:30 GMT -5
Quotes about Education Willie Jamieson You rich professing people will have to learn to keep your hands out of your pockets and you educated people have to learn to keep your mouths shut! [Chelan WA Conv 1954] REF #117 Dan Hilton Parents, don't sacrifice your children on the altar of education. [1979] REF #374 Tharold Sylvester It took 40 years in the back side of the desert to get the education of Egypt out of Moses Yes... and probably good advise in certain circumstances:)
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Post by reallyandtruly on Sept 1, 2014 20:55:36 GMT -5
Elizabeth Appreciate your summary! I note your inability to include the spiritual dimension that members of the fellowship have in their support of the ministry. With that included it quite changes the picture you present! As evident from your other writings and posts it is evident you carry considerable ill will towards the fellowship. It is interesting for me as a member of the group to read of such a person's perception and perspective. Thanks! Sorry all, Review would like me to note that members of the 2x2s give to the ministry because of the deep spiritual dimension that exists between the members and the workers, and the members' desire to support the ministry. If anyone can shed light on how this is different to other christians tithing in support of their ministries, I'd be grateful. I can only conclude that Review believes no such spiritual dimension can or does exist in any other church. As evident from this and your other writings and posts, Review, you have either little respect or indeed ill will towards other churches and Christians. Elizabeth As I understand it- tithing is giving a percentage of your income which would equal a set amount. The difference is: We are never asked for money, no collection is made and we choose how, when, how much and to whom we give the money . There may be other churches that do just as we do, but that doesn't alter what we do and the reason we do it.I have never heard it preached that we are the only ones that don't take collections or have an unpaid ministry, but they do preach that this is how it should be. What review said is my story. 'I give to the ministry because of the deep spiritual dimension that exists between the members and the workers, and my desire to support the ministry.'
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Post by holdmyhand on Sept 1, 2014 20:57:45 GMT -5
Holdmyhand. I'd say if you are a New Zealander then personally communicate or approach Mr Richardson with your concerns. That is the first step of what Mat 18 teaches when we have concerns with a brother over a matter. I wrote to Alan Richardson (and other Australian overseers) about several matters (including finances) on behalf of a group of concerned friends and workers. Alan replied with a private letter and indicated that he did not intend to answer any of the issues raised in our letter. Matthew 18 actually teaches us how to deal with a brother who is sinning (trespass). I'm not sure that is applicable in these circumstances. Jack Carroll spoke 'frankly and freely' about financial matters in a 1934 sermon. Jack counselled us to be frank and candid about financial matters. He said that funds given to workers, including from inheritances, are scattered. He did not indicate that substantial funds would be accumulated over many years but that seems to have happened since then. Review 005 Thank you for your reply These are my thoughts First I have spoken to a number of workers regarding my concerns about lack of open honest dialogue and accountability, these conversations were not limited to financial matters, they also included other areas that don’t line up with NT teaching. The general answer I got was “ we make mistakes but just keep the right spirit and forget about the problems nothing is going to change” Stevenz and others have written to Alan and have been told “he doesn’t intend to answer them” Graham T brought up problems that needed addressing and he was marginalised I am not so foolish as to think sending my name alone to Alan will cause him look at the root cause of the problems, he appears to want to focus only on the symptoms, and until he is willing open his eyes and see, the workers of yesteryear made some big errors that have never been corrected and in some cases compounded, we are not going to see any improvement
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 1, 2014 21:00:49 GMT -5
Sorry all, Review would like me to note that members of the 2x2s give to the ministry because of the deep spiritual dimension that exists between the members and the workers, and the members' desire to support the ministry. If anyone can shed light on how this is different to other christians tithing in support of their ministries, I'd be grateful. I can only conclude that Review believes no such spiritual dimension can or does exist in any other church. As evident from this and your other writings and posts, Review, you have either little respect or indeed ill will towards other churches and Christians. Elizabeth As I understand it- tithing is giving a percentage of your income which would equal a set amount. The difference is: We are never asked for money, no collection is made and we choose how, when, how much and to whom we give the money . There may be other churches that do just as we do, but that doesn't alter what we do and the reason we do it.I have never heard it preached that we are the only ones that don't take collections or have an unpaid ministry, but they do preach that this is how it should be. What review said is my story. 'I give to the ministry because of the deep spiritual dimension that exists between the members and the workers, and my desire to support the ministry.' So Really & Truly, can you explain what "The deep spiritual dimension that exists between the members and workers" actually is ?
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Post by reallyandtruly on Sept 1, 2014 21:08:32 GMT -5
The money matter will never be discussed openly because it is against the very religion that they preach. The overseer has large amounts of money with no accountability to anyone. The money is in chosen members bank accounts so that the money can't be traced to the religion or the workers. Yes, taxes are paid on it as it is reported to the government each year, but it is reported as belonging to the member who is holding it. That is totally untrue. The workers also receive monthly social security checks, which means it has to be reported to the government. If it is said to be used for charity I don't know, but so much for the preaching of being penniless. The workers then receive medicare, the health care from the government. So much for the preaching of going out two by two with nothing. The teaching of the religion of not collecting money is also cloudy. They collect money, they just do it sneaky. Shake the workers hand after a gospel meeting and it is expected to have money past. That is a well known fact. I love the old excuse, they will be held accountable on judgment day. But, in the mean time, we'll deceive as many as possible on our exact actions. The trust funds weren't even admitted until it became so well known, they had to admit it. But it is still done with deceit by not claiming it and not acknowledging who has what and how much and where it goes and what they own and what convention grounds do they own and etc. So much for the church built with hands. And, if you are blind sided by going along with the deceit, that is your problem. The workers also receive monthly social security checks
Completely wrong in our country. Only workers no longer able to preach get any government assistance. NO active worker gets social security. Shake the workers hand after a gospel meeting and it is expected to have money past. That is a well known factAgain completely wrong. In 50 odd years of attending meetings every week I have NEVER seen or felt that any worker expects money.When they stay in our home I NEVER get any feeling that they want money. Recently I offered workers some money and they told me very nicely that actually at the moment they didn't really need it but would I consider sending it overseas to somewhere they knew had a need. Hardly grabbing what they could???
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