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Post by holdmyhand on Aug 29, 2014 4:41:28 GMT -5
Virgo A number of yrs ago when it came to light about massive bank accounts belonging to the group. From memory and I could be wrong it seemed the accounts were opened because the workers didnt know how to handle/manage the growth of giving. They had a dilema. I dont care what people give nor how much. Its the fact we were lied too about money. What is wrong with honesty. It should be paramount. where is the evidence? it is all very well making conjecture of such you ask for truth but don't post truth in actual evidence
So Virgo, your posts are exempt from requirements you ask of other posters ?
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Post by bubbles on Aug 29, 2014 5:11:04 GMT -5
Virgo A number of yrs ago when it came to light about massive bank accounts belonging to the group. From memory and I could be wrong it seemed the accounts were opened because the workers didnt know how to handle/manage the growth of giving. They had a dilema. I dont care what people give nor how much. Its the fact we were lied too about money. What is wrong with honesty. It should be paramount. where is the evidence? it is all very well making conjecture of such you ask for truth but don't post truth in actual evidence Settle down virgo. Maybe you could ask admin to find some threads on this topic over the last 10yrs. FYI I havent lied in any post.
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Post by fixit on Aug 29, 2014 5:31:28 GMT -5
The ministry of Jesus and the Apostles bears little resemblance to the convention/special meetings system, with workers hosting conventions and travelling around the world to participate. i wonder if Paul's ministry was then in the same vain as you see the ministry today? you know travelling and all Its hard to see the convention/special meetings system in the Bible, and that's where most of the money goes.
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Post by bubbles on Aug 29, 2014 6:15:52 GMT -5
Review005
It is normal for a christian to not think about what happened to the money they gave when they believe they are giving to the lord.
As I told virgo on another thread there should be records in the archives of TMB about scandalous goings on regarding funds managed by overseers. I think it was in the USA few yrs back.
Exs dont reveal this stuff to gossip. Its about injustice in high places.
Do you think it should be kept under the carpet?
Cloaks and mirrors.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 29, 2014 9:43:00 GMT -5
Ross and Greg...I think the workers need to start checking out some of the more recent churches or religious gatherings. For the simple reason they can NO longer say that they are the ONLY ONES who do not taken collection at a church meeting. Calvary Chapel does not ever take a collection...they have a wooden bos at the back of their building or hallway into the meeting room for voluntary donations....they have asked for special donations to help finance some overseas' efforts by Calvary Chapel. Most of the pastors DO NOT receive wages for their time and trouble and most of the pastors have afull time job locally to their church...... I know of other religious efforts to go out in faith...I know a young couple with several children, both of the adults quit their day job, sold their home and went on the road with their children in a mobile home....they park in parking lots(with owner's permission) and have a short revivial type of mtg. OR if there are more people wanting bible study that's what they have....these people accept monies to help them, but they do not "collect" them in a blessed pan during the meeting time....most monies are left in a particular place that IS labeled what it is.....there is nothing hidden......IF the couple get a bit short on money, they will stop in a town and do day labor for a few weeks and then hit the road again. And yes, they are home schooling their children! Agree....many congregations now have no collection - giving is made online. I will write a separate post on the Bible and Christian giving. Alan and all the workers are simply not in line with the Bible if they don't encourage people to give - not to them personally but to the further the gospel of Christ locally and throughout the world and to help the poor. They are missing the point completely. The problem, largely due to their being completely exclusive, is that if they preach on Christian giving, then it does look as if they are asking for money personally....which of course is not what a church minister does when an appeal is made for money. Church buildings do require upkeep but they are used constantly and for good reasons. The honest part in Alan's sermon is that he reinforces again that the core doctrine of the 2x2 group is the meetings in the home and the ministry without a home. Whilst that is the core focus the fellowship will continue to decline because that doctrine offers absolutely NO hope - it's a catchy phrase but doesn't offer anything eternal. The first part of the statement is not completely true - meetings are also held in schools, other buildings, purpose built facilities such as conventions etc It is also not Biblical - Christians met in the synagogues, under a tree, in homes, in buildings etc. The second part of the phrase is simply not Biblical - a number of the early apostles had homes. I am sure they were very simple homes but nevertheless homes. Some of them worked for their living. Alan R would like us to believe that the ministry today is exactly as it was in NT times but of course it wasn't - it's just another example of trying to rewrite history - in this case the Bible. As I said on a previous occasion, one senior female worker at a wedding last year said that God had two plans for men and women in the Bible - the first was to marry and the second was the unmarried ministry. Another case of trying to rewrite history. This technique is called HISTORICAL REVISIONISM and sadly it happens reasonably frequently in the 2x2 group (although they are not the only Christian group to engage in it ). As sinful individuals we also like to do it as society changes and becomes more liberal. As I read your wonderful thoughts....it just came to me that the problem with the "exclusive" 2x2ism is not the exclusiveness totally but the isolationism.....the forbidding of the modern media in homes, the past habit of denying further education for the youth and the total powers of the workers to seal off their members to the point the members don't know anything but what the workers feed them with.....this has been the worst crippling that I can think of and seen within people exiting the 2x2s! A person is in NO way ready to meet the reality of the world they are living in for they've been living not only an exclusive spiritual life, but an isolated physical life! This would be one reason that a study by some would make them call the 2x2ism a "cult" and some would even call it a "dangerous cult" due to the thing of isolation practices that really go into the controlling by the power brokers of the 2x2s.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 29, 2014 9:58:15 GMT -5
When I reread this thing of the money donations the workers receive is "in a sense it may have been given to God." or something of that kind. Reminded me of what Jesus told the person who thought to trip him up on money matters....When they asked Jesus the question, his answer was "Give me a coin." and when they did, he asked "Who's inscription is on this coin?" They replied, "Caesar's"! Jesus reply was this: "Render unto God the things that are God's and render the things that are Caesar's that are Caesar's." Otherwords, sure seems to me that Jesus was saying he didn't get into that road of confusion of who had to pay what...he didn;'t require tithing, he didn't even require a mite, but was impressed by those who gave their last mite.....and he said that due respect and memorial was to be given to them. However when it came down to the ity gritty...Jesus told the Pharisees that they had demanded tithes, donations, things that were to be given to the priests in the temple for the sacrifices such as herbs and ointments...but that Jesus found the Pharisees had left the needy things out and that was that God preferred mercy over sacrifice. Otherwords..sacrifices often come in accounting of financial things such as money, etc but mercy comes from the loving and forgiving heart....and Jesus said that God would have them go and learn what God meant when He had said He wanted mercy over sacrifice." Kind of gets my goat when people start saying financial issues are given to God...I don't think God has much use of them, now does He? Yes, His appointed helps need such things for their job, etc However God doesn't want that to be the impetus that keeps or gets the appoints helps....seeing a lot of money or openings for different gains of the flesh or earthly things does not appeal to God...so for us to say it is given to God...seems perhaps a bit like tempting God to say something backa bout it? Gosh i would wonder why then that Judas had the money bag, i wonder if it was to buy bread with? In no wise was that scrip bag deemed actually to belong to the Apostles and Jesus....Judas Iscariot had to be shown to be the one who valued MONEY over the life of an innocent being....so we have the story of the scrip bag Judas had and also we have the accounting of Judas being right indignant about that expensive ointment that was poured on Jesus! Judas had said that that could have been sold and the money given to the poor....Jesus comment was that it was to fulfill to his burial and that they would always have the poor with them and he would recommend them to help the poor always.....Jesus also told Judas to go and do what he knew he had to do and to do it quickly. Judas was to betray Jesus and he would have been paid the 30 pieces of silver and he would have needed a scrip bag to hold that sum which Judas never got the chance to enjoy after all.....so I'm not sure where this all comes into that money donated to God business...Jesus always held out that money was to be used as it was inscripted....think about the experience that PEter had....Peter had been asked if he and his fellow Apostles and their leader, Jesus, paid their taxes...Peter declared Oh yes, definitely....and when Peter spoke to Jesus about it, what did Jesus tell him. He first let him know that neither Peter nor Jesus would be required to pay those taxes because they had been born free in the country and that since Peter had committed himself and JEsus in the issue, for Peter to go to the water and to take up a fish there and look in his mouth and remove the money and take that money and pay it to those whom had questioned Peter about the tax paying....strange part of it is, that there was only enough money in that fish's mouth to pay the tax for Peter and Jesus...nothing more, nothing less...thus it was "rendering" unto mankind the things that were of mankin...like in rendering unto Caeser the things that are Caesar's. Think about when the gospel were to be spoken in the garden of Eden, there would have been no need of money with its' inscriptions...now would it? Why? Because man had not come to the garden yet to conquer other men and make them pay their due benevolence of monies.......the living was pure and it was the garden of Paradise which is God's so that's why God had to evict Adam and Eve because they'd made their freewill choice that spoke against their continued lifestyle of having everything right at their doorstep....likely didn't even need the doorstep!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 29, 2014 10:04:58 GMT -5
My understanding, based on what I've been told by at least one worker, is that at convention time all the workers hand over the money they have to the overseer, and then the money is equally divided (perhaps with a part of it going into a fund for travel, conventions and such) and distributed among the workers. Perhaps this was the context in which the money was collected, unless it was really only taken from the younger workers... This is true in this area as well...though it is said that personal needs that are very expensive are taken care of moneywise after the money is put into the pot...then conv. needs are met out of the fund, donations gathered at conv. are also put into that kitty. And AFTER all the state's convs. are through, then the overseer will divide the kitty up with all the workers that under his auspices....in this area a few years ago, it came to about $100/person...but with increased costs, I know they'v eincreased...also any private donations usually are kept by the worker who had been given the money...such as things for their birthday, etc One year our state was well over moneyed and when the workers came to see me, I'd just had surgery, they took me out to eat to help them use that money up and plus they were being very thoughtful by not requiring me to make them a meal! I'd worried that they felt they had to pay, but the older one told me that they had a bit of money left from previous year and they'd been advised to use it up first if at all possible and the ways they did was up to them...and these workers had everything they needed, so their pockets were full..... This kind of condition would come from the workers always being able to spend the night in a friend's home and most meals taken in friends' homes.....so most moneys are used for their daily auto travel and with gas prices, the would use considerable amount of money
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Post by christiansburg on Aug 29, 2014 10:47:58 GMT -5
Dear Overseers, Workers, Elders in the know. How much money did you collect from the friends in your state this year, including from deceased estates? How much money do you currently know about which is stockpiled in bank accounts, collected from the friends? What form of accountability is there for those holding the money? Is this information disclosed to anyone? If so, whom? What form of accountability is there for those spending the money? Is it reasonable for members of an organisation to be informed on the income, expenditure and activities of its leaders and the funds provided to them by members? Why do you slander churches for accepting money from their members when you do the same? Why do you slander churches for having their own purpose built facilities when you have your own purpose built convention grounds all over the world? Why do you take money from your members but fail to provide any form of accountability to your members on how this money is used? Why do you seek to hide every aspect of money management from your members rather than acting with transparency, integrity and accountability, declaring income and expenditure through financial statements to those who provide this money to the ministry? Are you willing to answer any of these questions? If not, why not? I will not answer any of these questions because you are only on a curiosity search.
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Post by Mary on Aug 29, 2014 13:09:11 GMT -5
Rewiew005 said people left churches to join meetings. Many had no idea it was started by men as they were told this went back to Jesus. They were tricked into believing this was started by Jesus. Interesting with this knowledge people are leaving and going back to churches. It wasn't what it claimed to be. We are not easily fooled these days.
Workers expect people to have blind faith and trust them and will defend this to the hill. Are they forgetting that this church has the same scandals that some other churches do. If there was nothing to hide then they would not be so afraid of being accountable. Evil takes place behind closed doors and secrecy. As the Bible says, Jesus hid nothing.
Curiosity, Christiansburg - not that there is nothing wrong with being curiosity and seeking answers - but seems like she was wanting people to start thinking instead of keeping their heads buried in the sand.
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Post by rational on Aug 29, 2014 13:20:09 GMT -5
Dear Overseers, Workers, Elders in the know. How much money did you..<snip>... not? I would think the chance of getting the answers you are looking for would be improved if the 'spiritual' questions were separated from the factual questions.
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Post by Mary on Aug 29, 2014 13:22:43 GMT -5
Review005, why did you delete your previous posts and account when you wrote as noels if you believed what you were writing was the truth. Don't you want people reading what you had written? Again workers not wanting to be accountable for their words.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 29, 2014 14:17:06 GMT -5
Virgo your earlier quote: " where is the evidence? it is all very well making conjecture of such you ask for truth but don't post truth in actual evidence" So now where is your evidence or is it conjecture?
virgo, why can you not see that just because you say,
" I know that extra monies left which are surpluss to requirment have been given to the red cross" that we are suppose to believe it without any evidence?
If what you posted is fact you should be able to present evidence.
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Post by reallyandtruly on Aug 29, 2014 19:33:05 GMT -5
Dear Overseers, Workers, Elders in the know. How much money did you collect from the friends in your state this year, including from deceased estates? How much money do you currently know about which is stockpiled in bank accounts, collected from the friends? What form of accountability is there for those holding the money? Is this information disclosed to anyone? If so, whom? What form of accountability is there for those spending the money? Is it reasonable for members of an organisation to be informed on the income, expenditure and activities of its leaders and the funds provided to them by members? Why do you slander churches for accepting money from their members when you do the same? Why do you slander churches for having their own purpose built facilities when you have your own purpose built convention grounds all over the world? Why do you take money from your members but fail to provide any form of accountability to your members on how this money is used? Why do you seek to hide every aspect of money management from your members rather than acting with transparency, integrity and accountability, declaring income and expenditure through financial statements to those who provide this money to the ministry? Are you willing to answer any of these questions? If not, why not? I have not read every post on this thread in detail but it appears that you have forgotten something. Everyone who gives money does so because they WANT TO. As someone who IS part of this way, I give money when I'm moved to and I have no desire to see a written account of what happens to that money. I give that money KNOWING that it will be used at the workers discretion and I am totally happy with that. If I wasn't I wouldn't give it. In discussion with some of our personal friends I know that they all feel the same. I have seen no evidence here of money being spent in an inappropriate way here. If any of the members of the church are not happy with the way the finances are controlled then don't need to give. They are perfectly free to donate their money to charity, to give directly to those they feel are in need or hold on to their money. NO one is going to chase them for their donation.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Aug 29, 2014 20:15:19 GMT -5
I notice you make numerous statements regarding accountability....to you, to them,to own members, etc etc.
My experience is that of being encouraged to firstly live accountable to God. (The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom). I observe people doing that, it produces honest and godly living....and accountability to others!
Hi Review, Firstly, thank you for graciously accepting my apology. Re the accountability - Yes, I have made numerous statements to this effect. I thought about this a bit more last night after you wrote that, and why I find it so important. I do agree with your next statement wholeheartedly - of being encouraged to firstly live accountable to God. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Well said. Honestly and godly living - I really hope so. But many times, the keeping of outward appearances can be mistaken for "honest and godly living". I understand that this is a heart issue - what we do in secret makes us accountable to God, whatever we may pretend to be towards others. Our relationship with God is known to him alone - neither you nor I can adequately judge the realness of that relationship about someone else, including each other. Here is what continues to disturb me. Below are a number of statements made by you, from previous posts in this thread: Why is there lack of concern by most of members of the group who do contribute funds?
I'll give you the answer to that one....because they know and trust the men of integrity who handle them.
Please don't bring up the comparison of your church.
You are not comparing 'apples with apples' and I do not mean that in any derogatory sense to your church.
Your experience and perspective is different to mine. I think you will find very little interest in your new perspective amongst members of the group that I know where I live. They mostly don't look at it as you do. What's more Godly men who have had responsibility for funds have had the trust of those who contribute.
It is working great.
There is an understanding between the members and the ministry when they contribute financially. A deep mutual feeling of trust and good will. Something spiritual, deeper, more wonderful and more binding that any audited accounts could ever express. I think it unlikely you ever experienced this while in the group. I'm sorry about that. If you had you wouldn't be writing as you now are.
From this, and my past life experience, I know exactly what you are talking about. I understand the following from your viewpoint: - We are not like other churches - We have God's only true servants, true ministers (unlike other churches) - Our members trust us implicitly (unlike other churches) - Our ministers are godly men of integrity (unlike other churches) - There is something far more spiritual, deeper, wonderful and binding in the fellowship (unlike other churches). - Those outside the group do not know, cannot understand, cannot experience what we have. (exclusive, esoteric). In effect, all this leads to one conclusion that you have about yourselves - We are not like other men. We are not like those poor sinners over there who have to create accountability for themselves because they cannot otherwise be trusted. Lord, thank you that we are different. Of course the members all agree on this. They've had a lifetime being conditioned to all of the above viewpoints, taught from the mouth of the workers, who also teach that they speak the very words of God. Let me tell you about those of us in other churches. We seek to be godly, honest men and women of integrity. We also admit that we are sinners. We also want to be seen, as far as it is possible, to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. We should not be afraid of accountability and actively seek it, because it helps us keep ourselves accountable to God on a personal level. It helps remove temptation. It helps to keep us from sinning. It helps to stop bringing dishonour to God's name. If you find this weak and unappealing, there can be only one conclusion - you do not believe that workers sin like other men. They are less sinful. They are above temptation. They are incapable of having the problems of general mankind - including adultery, fornication, paedophilia, lust, covetousness, theft. No problems with any of these issues in the ministry or the fellowship? No, it not really about the money. I use the money as just one example of the secrecy and deception that is, very sadly, part of the fundamental nature of your group. We could, of course, go on to other areas of failure and deception. I do not doubt that many of you in the group are seeking to do the right thing. That many of you are genuinely people of integrity doing the best you can in the circumstances you have. But while ever you try to pretend that you are all better than others - far less likely to sin - not needing accountability - you are all deluding yourselves. There is already a litany of broken souls out there who testify to the damage done to them by this group. Perhaps everyone still in there with you remains in complete unity because anyone who doesn't has either left or been kicked out. Perhaps you should start listening, not just defending. Perhaps you could consider that being challenged is not always a bad thing. This isn't aimed personally at you, Review. You're just the only one (so far) willing to step up and respond. Thanks.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 20:30:42 GMT -5
virgo, why can you not see that just because you say,
" I know that extra monies left which are surpluss to requirment have been given to the red cross" that we are suppose to believe it without any evidence?
If what you posted is fact you should be able to present evidence.
why do i need to present evidence when i have told you it was fact? ah i see now you don't believe me, that explains all don't need to write anymore do i?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Aug 29, 2014 20:37:29 GMT -5
I have not read every post on this thread in detail but it appears that you have forgotten something. Everyone who gives money does so because they WANT TO. As someone who IS part of this way, I give money when I'm moved to and I have no desire to see a written account of what happens to that money. I give that money KNOWING that it will be used at the workers discretion and I am totally happy with that. If I wasn't I wouldn't give it. In discussion with some of our personal friends I know that they all feel the same. I have seen no evidence here of money being spent in an inappropriate way here. If any of the members of the church are not happy with the way the finances are controlled then don't need to give. They are perfectly free to donate their money to charity, to give directly to those they feel are in need or hold on to their money. NO one is going to chase them for their donation. Thanks for your response, reallyandtruly. I understand your sentiments. But you really don't KNOW how the workers use your money. Is it being used to bankroll lawyers for defending pedophile workers? (probably). Is it being used to compensate victims of these crimes? (I doubt it). How would you feel if you knew the workers had substantial sums at their disposal in trust funds? Would you feel that this was at odds with the ministry they preach? At what amount would you start to feel shocked? How much do the workers use for charity as opposed to flying themselves all over the world? It is much certainly much easier to close your eyes and continue in blind trust. Certainly causes far less trouble. Yes, I accept you give money because you WANT TO. However, if you are giving your money to ANY organisation, I'd humbly suggest you do so with good stewardship in mind. Is it needed? What will it be used for? Is there good accountability in practise in the organisation to which I'm giving my money?
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Post by déjà vu on Aug 29, 2014 21:24:01 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2014 21:52:59 GMT -5
I have not read every post on this thread in detail but it appears that you have forgotten something. Everyone who gives money does so because they WANT TO. As someone who IS part of this way, I give money when I'm moved to and I have no desire to see a written account of what happens to that money. I give that money KNOWING that it will be used at the workers discretion and I am totally happy with that. If I wasn't I wouldn't give it. In discussion with some of our personal friends I know that they all feel the same. I have seen no evidence here of money being spent in an inappropriate way here. If any of the members of the church are not happy with the way the finances are controlled then don't need to give. They are perfectly free to donate their money to charity, to give directly to those they feel are in need or hold on to their money. NO one is going to chase them for their donation. Thanks for your response, reallyandtruly. I understand your sentiments. But you really don't KNOW how the workers use your money. Is it being used to bankroll lawyers for defending pedophile workers? (probably). Is it being used to compensate victims of these crimes? (I doubt it). How would you feel if you knew the workers had substantial sums at their disposal in trust funds? Would you feel that this was at odds with the ministry they preach? At what amount would you start to feel shocked? How much do the workers use for charity as opposed to flying themselves all over the world? It is much certainly much easier to close your eyes and continue in blind trust. Certainly causes far less trouble. Yes, I accept you give money because you WANT TO. However, if you are giving your money to ANY organisation, I'd humbly suggest you do so with good stewardship in mind. Is it needed? What will it be used for? Is there good accountability in practise in the organisation to which I'm giving my money? you make one mistake, the money is no longer ours
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Aug 29, 2014 22:23:58 GMT -5
Thanks for your response, reallyandtruly. I understand your sentiments. But you really don't KNOW how the workers use your money. Is it being used to bankroll lawyers for defending pedophile workers? (probably). Is it being used to compensate victims of these crimes? (I doubt it). How would you feel if you knew the workers had substantial sums at their disposal in trust funds? Would you feel that this was at odds with the ministry they preach? At what amount would you start to feel shocked? How much do the workers use for charity as opposed to flying themselves all over the world? It is much certainly much easier to close your eyes and continue in blind trust. Certainly causes far less trouble. Yes, I accept you give money because you WANT TO. However, if you are giving your money to ANY organisation, I'd humbly suggest you do so with good stewardship in mind. Is it needed? What will it be used for? Is there good accountability in practise in the organisation to which I'm giving my money? you make one mistake, the money is no longer ours Even the more reason to think carefully before handing it over, Virgo. I absolutely support giving to the church. It's biblical. That's your responsibility before God as a church member,to support those in ministry and you should do it. I'm questioning the other end - the responsibility taken on by those accepting the money.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 29, 2014 22:32:34 GMT -5
virgo, why can you not see that just because you say,
" I know that extra monies left which are surpluss to requirment have been given to the red cross" that we are suppose to believe it without any evidence?
If what you posted is fact you should be able to present evidence.
why do i need to present evidence when i have told you it was fact? ah i see now you don't believe me, that explains all don't need to write anymore do i? Well, it like this. You say it is a fact that, "I know that extra monies left which are surpluss to requirment have been given to the red cross." and you think that we are suppose to take your word for it. I am only asking how you know that this is a fact.
We you there when the -"extra monies left which are surpluss to requirment have been given to the red cross?" Did you see the money actually given to the Red Cross?
I am not disputing you, only that you actually saw this happen and weren't just told that by someone.
I always thought that accounting for the money was done by workers in the presence of workers. Were you a worker & saw this happen?
Knowing about how the TRUTH usually didn't have much to do with the ways of the "world," -extending even to charities , -it sounds so unusual that the workers would give to the Red Cross.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Aug 29, 2014 22:48:02 GMT -5
Elizabeth, On a quick read through your last post I notice a number of unpleasant insinuations and over a dozen presumed but unsubstantiated and factually incorrect statements made. I have truthfully and sincerely posted and what I get in response is a wave of "I understand you"(when you quite clearly don't!)...blah blah ...unpleasant erroneous statements. You expressed your regret and apologized when you did this a day or two ago and I respected your sincerity and was glad to continue the dialogue. You thanked me for stepping up. I'll be surprised if you have too many others from the fellowship stepping up as long as your posting is combative,unpleasant and too often containing erroneous preconceptions. Your inability to accept and believe the experience of anyone which is different to yours makes meaningful dialogue difficult. Review, finding something unpleasant is not enough of a justification to reject or ignore the issue or shoot the messenger. I am not insinuating - I am using your statements to arrive at logical conclusions, which you appear unwilling to address. I cannot regret that the statements are unpleasant if they contain truth, which I still stand by that they do. You yourself have claimed that you do not need accountability like other churches because your organisation is not like other churches. This still leads to the conclusions I have listed above. Otherwise, in what way is it different? Erroneous? We could start a long list of proven, factual, unpleasant statements about workers if you like, if you prefer that to my 'insinuations'. Preconceptions? No. I have a lot of information and experience on which to base the statements. This continues to be a major difficulty of the fellowship - the workers are beyond questioning. Any who question have a "wrong spirit" or "bad spirit", and therefore are not worthy of having their questions seriously considered. Instead, they will be maligned. It a perfect way to avoid conflict, and keep the upper hand with your members, but the issues remain. Your inability to accept and believe the experience of many of those who have left (or is different to yours) makes meaningful dialogue just as difficult.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 29, 2014 22:52:17 GMT -5
Agree....many congregations now have no collection - giving is made online. I will write a separate post on the Bible and Christian giving. Alan and all the workers are simply not in line with the Bible if they don't encourage people to give - not to them personally but to the further the gospel of Christ locally and throughout the world and to help the poor. They are missing the point completely. The problem, largely due to their being completely exclusive, is that if they preach on Christian giving, then it does look as if they are asking for money personally....which of course is not what a church minister does when an appeal is made for money. Church buildings do require upkeep but they are used constantly and for good reasons. The honest part in Alan's sermon is that he reinforces again that the core doctrine of the 2x2 group is the meetings in the home and the ministry without a home. Whilst that is the core focus the fellowship will continue to decline because that doctrine offers absolutely NO hope - it's a catchy phrase but doesn't offer anything eternal. The first part of the statement is not completely true - meetings are also held in schools, other buildings, purpose built facilities such as conventions etc It is also not Biblical - Christians met in the synagogues, under a tree, in homes, in buildings etc. The second part of the phrase is simply not Biblical - a number of the early apostles had homes. I am sure they were very simple homes but nevertheless homes. Some of them worked for their living. Alan R would like us to believe that the ministry today is exactly as it was in NT times but of course it wasn't - it's just another example of trying to rewrite history - in this case the Bible. As I said on a previous occasion, one senior female worker at a wedding last year said that God had two plans for men and women in the Bible - the first was to marry and the second was the unmarried ministry. Another case of trying to rewrite history. This technique is called HISTORICAL REVISIONISM and sadly it happens reasonably frequently in the 2x2 group (although they are not the only Christian group to engage in it ). As sinful individuals we also like to do it as society changes and becomes more liberal. As I read your wonderful thoughts....it just came to me that the problem with the "exclusive" 2x2ism is not the exclusiveness totally but the isolationism.....the forbidding of the modern media in homes, the past habit of denying further education for the youth and the total powers of the workers to seal off their members to the point the members don't know anything but what the workers feed them with.....this has been the worst crippling that I can think of and seen within people exiting the 2x2s! A person is in NO way ready to meet the reality of the world they are living in for they've been living not only an exclusive spiritual life, but an isolated physical life! This would be one reason that a study by some would make them call the 2x2ism a "cult" and some would even call it a "dangerous cult" due to the thing of isolation practices that really go into the controlling by the power brokers of the 2x2s. Thank you Ross & STR two great posts here ! I think they should be the posts of the week Also thank you Elizabeth for the OP maybe that should be post of the week too !
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 29, 2014 23:10:09 GMT -5
I notice you make numerous statements regarding accountability....to you, to them,to own members, etc etc.
My experience is that of being encouraged to firstly live accountable to God. (The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom). I observe people doing that, it produces honest and godly living....and accountability to others!
Hi Review, Firstly, thank you for graciously accepting my apology. Re the accountability - Yes, I have made numerous statements to this effect. I thought about this a bit more last night after you wrote that, and why I find it so important. I do agree with your next statement wholeheartedly - of being encouraged to firstly live accountable to God. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Well said. Honestly and godly living - I really hope so. But many times, the keeping of outward appearances can be mistaken for "honest and godly living". I understand that this is a heart issue - what we do in secret makes us accountable to God, whatever we may pretend to be towards others. Our relationship with God is known to him alone - neither you nor I can adequately judge the realness of that relationship about someone else, including each other. Here is what continues to disturb me. Below are a number of statements made by you, from previous posts in this thread: Why is there lack of concern by most of members of the group who do contribute funds?
I'll give you the answer to that one....because they know and trust the men of integrity who handle them.
Please don't bring up the comparison of your church.
You are not comparing 'apples with apples' and I do not mean that in any derogatory sense to your church.
Your experience and perspective is different to mine. I think you will find very little interest in your new perspective amongst members of the group that I know where I live. They mostly don't look at it as you do. What's more Godly men who have had responsibility for funds have had the trust of those who contribute.
It is working great.
There is an understanding between the members and the ministry when they contribute financially. A deep mutual feeling of trust and good will. Something spiritual, deeper, more wonderful and more binding that any audited accounts could ever express. I think it unlikely you ever experienced this while in the group. I'm sorry about that. If you had you wouldn't be writing as you now are.
From this, and my past life experience, I know exactly what you are talking about. I understand the following from your viewpoint: - We are not like other churches - We have God's only true servants, true ministers (unlike other churches) - Our members trust us implicitly (unlike other churches) - Our ministers are godly men of integrity (unlike other churches) - There is something far more spiritual, deeper, wonderful and binding in the fellowship (unlike other churches). - Those outside the group do not know, cannot understand, cannot experience what we have. (exclusive, esoteric). In effect, all this leads to one conclusion that you have about yourselves - We are not like other men. We are not like those poor sinners over there who have to create accountability for themselves because they cannot otherwise be trusted. Lord, thank you that we are different. Of course the members all agree on this. They've had a lifetime being conditioned to all of the above viewpoints, taught from the mouth of the workers, who also teach that they speak the very words of God. Let me tell you about those of us in other churches. We seek to be godly, honest men and women of integrity. We also admit that we are sinners. We also want to be seen, as far as it is possible, to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. We should not be afraid of accountability and actively seek it, because it helps us keep ourselves accountable to God on a personal level. It helps remove temptation. It helps to keep us from sinning. It helps to stop bringing dishonour to God's name. If you find this weak and unappealing, there can be only one conclusion - you do not believe that workers sin like other men. They are less sinful. They are above temptation. They are incapable of having the problems of general mankind - including adultery, fornication, paedophilia, lust, covetousness, theft. No problems with any of these issues in the ministry or the fellowship? No, it not really about the money. I use the money as just one example of the secrecy and deception that is, very sadly, part of the fundamental nature of your group. We could, of course, go on to other areas of failure and deception. I do not doubt that many of you in the group are seeking to do the right thing. That many of you are genuinely people of integrity doing the best you can in the circumstances you have. But while ever you try to pretend that you are all better than others - far less likely to sin - not needing accountability - you are all deluding yourselves. There is already a litany of broken souls out there who testify to the damage done to them by this group. Perhaps everyone still in there with you remains in complete unity because anyone who doesn't has either left or been kicked out. Perhaps you should start listening, not just defending. Perhaps you could consider that being challenged is not always a bad thing. This isn't aimed personally at you, Review. You're just the only one (so far) willing to step up and respond. Thanks. Thank you Elizabeth.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 29, 2014 23:10:50 GMT -5
As I read your wonderful thoughts....it just came to me that the problem with the "exclusive" 2x2ism is not the exclusiveness totally but the isolationism.....the forbidding of the modern media in homes, the past habit of denying further education for the youth and the total powers of the workers to seal off their members to the point the members don't know anything but what the workers feed them with.....this has been the worst crippling that I can think of and seen within people exiting the 2x2s! A person is in NO way ready to meet the reality of the world they are living in for they've been living not only an exclusive spiritual life, but an isolated physical life! This would be one reason that a study by some would make them call the 2x2ism a "cult" and some would even call it a "dangerous cult" due to the thing of isolation practices that really go into the controlling by the power brokers of the 2x2s. Sharingtheriches, I think that you hit the nail right on the head about "isolationism!"
When you isolate people by forbidding any other information, media, further education,etc. - you can keep people in the dark and beholden to you for any information. They have no other information coming into their sphere of knowledge but what the workers convey.
You are right. That isolated physical life alone is very crippling.
Of such are cults made.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 29, 2014 23:17:02 GMT -5
Elizabeth, On a quick read through your last post I notice a number of unpleasant insinuations and over a dozen presumed but unsubstantiated and factually incorrect statements made. I have truthfully and sincerely posted and what I get in response is a wave of "I understand you"(when you quite clearly don't!)...blah blah ...unpleasant erroneous statements. You expressed your regret and apologized when you did this a day or two ago and I respected your sincerity and was glad to continue the dialogue. You thanked me for stepping up. I'll be surprised if you have too many others from the fellowship stepping up as long as your posting is combative,unpleasant and too often containing erroneous preconceptions. Your inability to accept and believe the experience of anyone which is different to yours makes meaningful dialogue difficult. Review maybe you could list the things that you feel Elizabeth has said that are presumed but unsubstantiated and factually incorrect statements.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Aug 29, 2014 23:17:45 GMT -5
Elizabeth, please pm me when you find someone from the fellowship with whom you are able to have mutually beneficial and good dialogue with, I'd be interested to know and see it. wishes and thanks. review 005 Review, sometime ago I joined (by invitation) a closed forum called "Professing Bible Believers". We have some very mutually beneficial and good dialogue, and I wholeheartedly respect the genuine, Christian faith of these 2x2 professing people.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Aug 29, 2014 23:45:16 GMT -5
Elizabeth Thanks! How do I get in touch with these people? Have you had opportunity to present the opening post of this thread to them? Review, it is a forum with no anonymity. We all use our own names, photos and geographical locations. If you are willing to set up a profile using your real-life identity (in principle, I don't mean here on TMB), I can make an introduction for you. However, I don't host the forum, so you would probably need a reference from someone; I can't join you up. The host/s usually prefer a track record of your previous online content before inviting you to join. If you are willing to forgo the anonymity and are genuinely interested in Bible dialogue in this context, then please PM me and we'll go from there. The forum is to specifically discuss the Bible among Bible believers, professing or not, so no, I have not presented this thread there. I try to respect the specific purpose of the forum in building up our mutual Christian faith, discussing Bible text. However, as I always use my real name in all forums, there is no reason why they could not see this and recognise me on this forum (TMB) which is visible publicly.
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Post by fred on Aug 30, 2014 0:09:10 GMT -5
Elizabeth Thanks! How do I get in touch with these people? Have you had opportunity to present the opening post of this thread to them? review 005, thanks for stepping up to the plate to defend our fellowship. I feel your effort would be greatly enhanced if you would list for everyone to see the untrue statements made by Ms Coleman. When the truth is made plain for everyone to see there should be no more argument. With respect, fred
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