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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 21, 2014 5:26:15 GMT -5
Thanks Nathan
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Post by placid-void on Aug 21, 2014 8:07:38 GMT -5
NathanB, I lack the theological sophistication to honestly respond to your question.
Since first becoming aware of your thesis, however, I have been intrigued by the questions (implicit and explicit) that your historical research raises. Reading your posts relating to the historical documentation of these groups and the responses that your posts stimulate, I often conjure the image of “a voice calling in the wilderness.” The path you have chosen is a lonely one.
A question that often comes to my mind when I think about your thesis and a question that could have a significant impact on this thread is: “what is the intellectual cost to those vested in the William Irving narrative to approach your thesis in an intellectually honest and open way?".
This may not be the place for that conversation but I would be interested in how people feel about the question.
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 21, 2014 21:02:32 GMT -5
Nathan, the first thing that comes to mind is I have never heard a worker say "We have a confession of Faith "/ "Written Doctrine", so that would be the first difference. The second thing would be the views on the "Trinity".
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 22, 2014 1:16:02 GMT -5
Nathan again I have never heard a worker say " This is our confession of faith " Go on 323 and ask what the doctrine of the workers are.... see what response you get. As Ross said there are VERY few workers who mention the Trinity or preach the Trinity. Have a look at Truth Archive at the amount of workers that say the opposite to what you have quoted above from workers in regard to the Trinity. Maybe it was preached in the early days...
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 22, 2014 1:23:11 GMT -5
Dale Bors It depends who we are talking to whether we believe in the Trinity or not.
[Sacramento CA 1979] REF #211
Fred Allen In the world there is the ARGUMENT of the Trinity. The Catholics believe in one person. But Jesus said "That they may be one as we are one." This was a number of people with one heart, mind and spirit to do one thing. There is one mind and heart of Father and Son and Spirit. It is important to have unity of heart and mind and spirit to do the will of God as Jesus to do the Father's will. [Post Falls ID Conv 1989] REF #198
Dan Hilton The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. It is a Catholic doctrine that wasn't even mentioned by the early Christians. It wasn't heard of until the second century. [Washington 1985] REF #393
Dan Hilton Beware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity. [Manhattan MT Conv 1996] REF 160
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 22, 2014 1:28:08 GMT -5
Nathan again I have never heard a worker say " This is our confession of faith " Go on 323 and ask what the doctrine of the workers are.... see what response you get. As Ross said there are VERY few workers who mention the Trinity or preach the Trinity. Have a look at Truth Archive at the amount of workers that say the opposite to what you have quoted above from workers in regard to the Trinity. Maybe it was preached in the early days... The workers might NOT say this is our confession of Faith... But this is 99% of the workers believe " Jesus 2x2 Itinerant ministry and the church meet in the homes for the emblems/Passover.".... And this is confession of Faith of the Vaudois/Waldensians also.Have you ever heard a worker mention the Vaudois/Waldensians Nathan ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 4:17:29 GMT -5
Nathan, the first thing that comes to mind is I have never heard a worker say "We have a confession of Faith "/ "Written Doctrine", so that would be the first difference. The second thing would be the views on the "Trinity". ~~ The Workers confession of Faith is " Jesus 2x2 ministry without homes and the Church meet in the homes." The Triune God belief is growing among us, like to the early workers believed/taught.... William Irvine, Eddy Cooney, John Long, George Walker, Jack Carroll, Dave Christie, Tom Lyness, Tharold Sylvester, Leo Stancliff, Mable Gibson, Leslie White, Stan Chamberlain, Maurice Close, John Sterling, Everett Blair, John Wegter, Lyle Shoeber, Everett Swanson, Mark Huddle, Alan Richardson, etc.
John Long's Journal in 1899 wrote:William Irvine's Doctrines & Leaderships: "Concerning the principals of the Doctrine of Christ, he [Wm Irvine] was sound. He believed in the fall of man, in the Atonement, in the Trinity, in the Divinity of our Lord, in the immortality of the soul, in the resurrection of the body, the inspiration of the Bible, in Heaven for the saved, and in Hell for the lost. He believed in a personal Devil, the enemy of God and man. He believed and taught Repentance and that every person can be saved and know it, and that the conditions of Salvation were "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9. He taught that every saved soul is indwelt by the Spirit of Christ; and that the life of Jesus, is the pattern for everyone to imitate and follow; and that the life of forsaking all for Christ's sake was the best to live. The fruits of that teaching resulted in farmers, shop keepers, domestic servants, school teachers, police, soldiers, and persons of every occupation forsaking all that they had to follow Jesus; and to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom of God." "In either secular or religious matters, he was a born leader of men; he was a holy man, and practical. In personal dealing, he was preeminently the best conversationalist I ever met, and skilful in soul winning. He had a marvelous insight into the deep things of God's word, and like his Master, was an apt teacher of all who received the truth with pleasure. He always set forth the cross, and was a swift witness against all pride, vainglory and hypocrisy; he was severe on Christians, but merciful to sinners. In prayer, praise, and preaching he excelled in joy, liberty, and power. He was very much opposed and misunderstood by religious people; nevertheless, the common people liked him and heard him gladly." (From: John Long's Journal) Leo Stancliff: Jesus is the Lord Yahweh. Carson Cowan: Carson Cowan related HE heard George Walker teach the Father, Son and Holy Ghost was like a shamrock, Three in one. John Wegter: Jesus is the Lord. Everett Swanson: Jesus is the I AM that I AM. Mark Huddle: Jesus is 100% God and 100% human. (Walla Walla, convention 1984) [/color] ~~ Greg L. wrote: I cannot recall anyone preaching on God the Son. The closest I heard was one who said Jesus is to God as a bottle of ocean water is to the ocean. As I have stated before, I think if George Walker believed in God the Son he kept it out of his preaching and perhaps rarely shared such with any. As big an impact as he had, if he preached it, others would be preaching the same. The Triune God might be foundational for Christian churches, but it is not for the F&W fellowship. ~~ Dennis J. wrote: Hello Greg. According to Carson Cowan speaking at a convention decades ago, George walker DID teach his companions that God was like a shamrock, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost one, yet all God. According to reports I have heard he did teach this in sermons. And no, I had no reason upon hearing it to document it for it is specifically what Jack Carroll and many others taught and believed. Somewhere in my records once was a copy of Jack's sermon notes, where proof was found of his preaching God to exist as Father Son and Holy Ghost. In every mission from my first, I would point to Jesus as the Word and He existed from the moment GOD first "spoke" later becoming the word made flesh. NEVER ONCE was I corrected for teaching that. NOT ONCE. Also I taught over simplifying there is the Divine Kingdom, Angelic/spirit/demon kingdom, human kingdom, that God Son became human Son of God. Never corrected for that neither though having "Gospel meetings" with about 14 assigned companions, in various states and a couple of countries. ~~ John Wegter (ex-worker) wrote: I heard a fairly young -- but already quite influential -- sister worker speak a message at a large convention in 2009 something that I considered to be quite in error in doctrine, regarding the nature of the Lord Jesus, in which she over-emphasized His humanity, very much at the expense of His divinity. I was quite distressed with the message, and not knowing this particular lady personally at all, had no idea if it's something she preaches all the time, or if she just happened to be misunderstood in her emphasis in that particular meeting.Whatever the case, in the very next meeting, two individuals -- an older lady in testimony and the brother worker who had the longest part in the meeting -- both made some very explicit statements, not mentioning her or her message, but making it clear that our Lord was both fully human AND fully divine, and presenting sound teaching to back up their points. I hope someone who knew her well (and I wouldn't be surprised that the brother worker did so, knowing his approach) helped her see the error of teaching one side without presenting the other. I was grateful for the sake of everyone present that a more complete message was presented, because otherwise it would have been a very discordant and lopsided impression given of our Savior. 3/22/2013 Alan Richardson, the overseer of New Zealand, has said many times that Jesus was fully human and fully divine. I don't think he is 'on the fringe' 3/12/14 I think God the Son is a useful expression for clarifying understanding....most workers and friends will not accept that Jesus is God or God the Son. I have spoken to many New South Wales workers who absolutely deny that Jesus is God or God the Son or part of the Godhead....although many would say he is divine? One senior worker I asked said "of course, he believed in the Trinity" so I then asked "Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God but also God the Son". He said "we definitely don't believe the latter..." and the conversation moved on. Having said that I believe that a few workers believe in the Trinity and the Godhead of Jesus. I have only heard the word Trinity mentioned once at Convention by a Canadian worker (Maurice or Morris???) in the 1990's at Silverdale Convention, Sydney. A US worker apparently spoke at a Sydney convention two years ago about the Holy Spirit being the third person of the Godhead and David Saunders apparently referred to Jesus as the great "I am" at this year's Sydney Convention. ~~~ Generally, it is ridiculed as a Catholic doctrine, by many of the current workers and friends.... Hopefully, this will change. In reality TRINITY is a core Christian and the 2x2 doctrine.[/quote] Nathan do you have what Stan C spoke?
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otto2
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Post by otto2 on Aug 22, 2014 5:08:16 GMT -5
I'm not a 2x2 so I guess the thread's not really aimed at me but I just felt I could add my support to the 'Waldensian Confession'
I've not read every word of it Nathan but I've scanned it for the most part and have no problem with the most of it. I think if it were to be stated as the confession of the assembly I attend, there would be little dissention. The odd difficulties would be with the title 'Apostle' for the preacher believers, and the absolute requirement to go 2x2 (which seems to mean in no other way)which doesn't appear to be the case in the book of Acts.
I think if I were to ask my Mother (2x2) whether she agreed with it she would probably say 'Oh I leave all that to the Workers'. I once said in some frustration to my brother(who is a worker)"But Jesus was God", and he remained absolutely silent and just looked at me.
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Post by uker260702 on Aug 22, 2014 13:50:11 GMT -5
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Post by Greg on Aug 22, 2014 17:59:57 GMT -5
Should "Less than 10%" have been a choice?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 23:01:14 GMT -5
I met and talked to Stan C. when he was at Boring for convention. You could write and ask Stan C. about his understanding on it. I believe I read somewhere on TMB that Stand C. believes in the Triune God and that is why I included his name on the list above. can't say that i have ever heard stan speak of a trinity or us the word trinity and we have had him with us for the last 1-1/2 years now mind you he has spoken of the Father,Son and Holy Ghost as being one
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 1:44:32 GMT -5
Thanks. What does Stan means by the Father, Son and Holy Ghost/Spirit as being one? being One as what? Spirit like all those who God has put His spirit into, one spirit
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 23, 2014 2:03:48 GMT -5
Virgo would you say 80% of the F&W agree with the Confession of Faith ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 4:41:45 GMT -5
Virgo would you say 80% of the F&W agree with the Confession of Faith ? don't know didn't read it
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 25, 2014 0:30:04 GMT -5
Nathan, are you saying 80% of the F&W believe in the Trinity ?
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Post by fixit on Aug 25, 2014 1:24:17 GMT -5
Nathan, are you saying 80% of the F&W believe in the Trinity ? I would estimate more than 80% don't believe in the trinity.
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Post by fred on Aug 25, 2014 1:32:59 GMT -5
Nathan, are you saying 80% of the F&W believe in the Trinity ? I would estimate more than 80% don't believe in the trinity. I would go further than that fixit. I would say 80% don't have much idea what it is all about, another 15% have a limited idea but reject it because that is what the workers teach, and the remaining 5% support the notion but most of them would never have read the creed.
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Post by breakingfree on Aug 25, 2014 2:46:29 GMT -5
I would estimate more than 80% don't believe in the trinity. I would go further than that fixit. I would say 80% don't have much idea what it is all about, another 15% have a limited idea but reject it because that is what the workers teach, and the remaining 5% support the notion but most of them would never have read the creed. Bingo
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Post by Roselyn T on Aug 25, 2014 5:03:27 GMT -5
I would estimate more than 80% don't believe in the trinity. I would go further than that fixit. I would say 80% don't have much idea what it is all about, another 15% have a limited idea but reject it because that is what the workers teach, and the remaining 5% support the notion but most of them would never have read the creed. Have to agree with you Fred & Fixit !
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