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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 16:12:39 GMT -5
Snow, fixit, I am so sorry for my comment to you two. It was Faune who made a comment about NOT shoving a belief about God's "personality" and fixit's comment in response about some "Christians doing so" that somehow I erroneously attributed to you, snow. I was wrong and should not have said anything, despite my belief regarding people who do such things in the name of Christanity.
Fixit, perhaps you could perhaps address who and what "Christians" you know who do such a thing, in recent history? Surely contradicts the Christian life and spirit I know, anyway.
Snow, I repeat, I'm so sorry.
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Post by snow on Aug 14, 2014 17:55:12 GMT -5
Snow, fixit, I am so sorry for my comment to you two. It was Faune who made a comment about NOT shoving a belief about God's "personality" and fixit's comment in response about some "Christians doing so" that somehow I erroneously attributed to you, snow. I was wrong and should not have said anything, despite my belief regarding people who do such things in the name of Christanity.
Fixit, perhaps you could perhaps address who and what "Christians" you know who do such a thing, in recent history? Surely contradicts the Christian life and spirit I know, anyway.
Snow, I repeat, I'm so sorry. No problem at all Dennis. I just thought I was losing it because I couldn't remember saying that.
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Post by fixit on Aug 14, 2014 18:39:26 GMT -5
Dennis: those Christians who have applied what Jesus taught with respect to how we should treat our fellow man, have done a great deal of good for mankind.
Unfortunately organized Christian groups typically have a statement of faith that adds to that. It results in "Christianity" being defined as something quite different.
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Post by faune on Aug 14, 2014 19:16:23 GMT -5
Snow, fixit, I am so sorry for my comment to you two. It was Faune who made a comment about NOT shoving a belief about God's "personality" and fixit's comment in response about some "Christians doing so" that somehow I erroneously attributed to you, snow. I was wrong and should not have said anything, despite my belief regarding people who do such things in the name of Christanity.
Fixit, perhaps you could perhaps address who and what "Christians" you know who do such a thing, in recent history? Surely contradicts the Christian life and spirit I know, anyway.
Snow, I repeat, I'm so sorry. Dennis ~ Are you referring to this post of mine about the Trinity doctrine in response to Fixit's comments on the B&R thread?
professing.proboards.com/thread/22268/born-raised-group?page=6
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 20:16:59 GMT -5
Fixit, thank you for your response. However, will you please be more specific? I really would like to know what constitutes "shoving something believed down someone's throat." It has been my experience in life to have attended many different worship services of many various religious beliefs. Yet even when not agreeing with another's statement of faith, never once did I feel as though someone was shoving something down my throat.
Nor have I ever experienced "chanting" anything in my "Christian" experience in over 71 years of life. So I simply cannot relate to such statements and things, ev en though I have done a lot of voting with my feet! But then, I like garlic, too, being so passive aggressive and all... (smile.)
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Post by fixit on Aug 14, 2014 21:44:19 GMT -5
Fixit, thank you for your response. However, will you please be more specific? I really would like to know what constitutes "shoving something believed down someone's throat." It has been my experience in life to have attended many different worship services of many various religious beliefs. Yet even when not agreeing with another's statement of faith, never once did I feel as though someone was shoving something down my throat.
Nor have I ever experienced "chanting" anything in my "Christian" experience in over 71 years of life. So I simply cannot relate to such statements and things, ev en though I have done a lot of voting with my feet! But then, I like garlic, too, being so passive aggressive and all... (smile.) Dennis, I don't recall using the terminology you used: 1. "Shoving something believed down someone's throat." 2. "Chanting". The Statement of Faith of most church groups doesn't line up with what Jesus taught, as far as I can tell. I don't want to argue points of doctrine, but I'd like to point out that religious dogma tends to have the opposite effect to what Jesus taught regarding how we should treat our fellow man.
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Post by Mary on Aug 14, 2014 22:11:04 GMT -5
Could you show me where the statement of faith of the church I attend (or beliefs as we call it) does not line up with scripture. You could be forgiven for not agreeing with C; the Holy Spirit is a divine person. As for the workers church - there is very little I agree with that lines up with the Bible.
Our Beliefs:
A. There is one God,1 Creator of all things,2 who is infinitely perfect,3 and existing eternally in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.4
1Isaiah 44:6; 45:5-6, 21-22; 2Genesis 1; Colossians 1:15, 16. 3Matthew 5:48; Deuteronomy 32:4. 4Matthew 3:16-17; 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14
B. Jesus Christ is true God and true man.5 He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary.6 He died upon the cross, the Righteous for the unrighteous, as a substitutionary sacrifice,7 and all who believe in Him are justified on the ground of His shed blood.8 He arose from the dead according to the Scriptures.9 He is now at the right hand of the Majesty on high10 as our great High Priest.11 He will come again to establish His Kingdom of righteousness and peace.12
5Philippians 2:6-11; Hebrews 1:2, 3; 2:14-18; Colossians 1:15-20; 2:9. 6Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:35. 71 Peter 2:24: 3:18; 1 John 2:2; 4:9, 10. 8Romans 3:22-25. 91 Corinthians 15:3-6. 10 Hebrews 1:3, 8:1 11Hebrews 4:14-15; 9:24-28. 12Matthew 25:31-34.
C. The Holy Spirit is a divine person, sent to indwell, guide, teach, and empower the believer for godly living and service, to bring glory to the Lord Jesus Christ, and to convict the world of sin, of righteousness and of judgment.13
13John 14:16-17; John 16:7-15.
D. The Old and New Testaments, inerrant as originally given, whose words were inspired by God, are a complete revelation of His will for the salvation of all people. They constitute the divine and only rule of Christian faith and practice.14
14 2 Timothy 3:15-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21.
E. People were originally created in the image and likeness of God; they fell through disobedience, incurring thereby both physical and spiritual death.15 Subsequently all people are born with a sinful nature, are separated from the life of God, and can be saved only through faith in the atoning work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. 16 The destiny of the unrepentant and unbelieving is everlasting separation from God in conscious torment (Hell); but that of the believer is everlasting joy and blessing in the presence of the Lord (Heaven). 17
15Genesis 1:27, 3; 16Romans 3:9-12; 22-25; Galatians 3:22; Ephesians 4:17-18. 17 Matthew 25:41-46; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10; Revelation 14:10-11
F. Salvation has been provided only through Jesus Christ for all people.18 Those who repent and believe in Him are justified freely by His grace, are born again of the Holy Spirit, receive the gift of eternal life, and become the children of God.19
18John 3:16; Titus 3:5-7; Acts 2:38. 19Ephesians 1:7; Romans 3:22-25; 1 Corinthians 6:11; John 1:12.
G. It is the will of God that each believer should be filled with the Holy Spirit and be sanctified thoroughly, thereby being separated from the power of sin and conformity to the world, and being fully dedicated to the will of God, receiving power for holy living and sacrificial and effective service toward the completion of Christ's commission.20 This is both a distinct encounter and a progressive experience in the life of the believer subsequent to conversion.21
20 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Acts 1:8; Romans 12:1-2; Galatians 5:16-25; 21 2 Corinthians 3:18; Romans 6:1-4; 1 John 2:15-17
H. Provision is made in the redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ for the healing of the mortal body.22 Prayer for the sick and anointing with oil as taught in the Scriptures are privileges for the Church in this present age.23
22Matthew 8:16-17. 23James 5:14-16.
I. The universal Church consists of all those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, are redeemed through His blood, and are born again of the Holy Spirit. Christ is the Head of the Body, the Church. He has commissioned the Church to go to all nations as a witness of the Gospel.24
The local church is a body of believers in Christ who are joined together for the worship of God, which includes being built up through the Word of God, prayer, fellowship, the observance of Baptism and the Lord's Supper, and the witness of the Gospel locally and globally. 25
241 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:22-23; 3:6-12; Matthew 16:18; 28:19-20. 25Hebrews 10:25; Acts 2:41-47; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29; Acts 1:8
J. There shall be a bodily resurrection of all people.26 For believers a resurrection to life;27 for unbelievers a resurrection to judgement.28
26 John 5:25-29; Acts 24:15-16; 27 1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 28 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
K. The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ is imminent, and will be personal and visible.29 As the believer's blessed hope, this vital truth is an incentive to holy living and faithful service toward the completion of Christ’s commission.30
29 Matthew 24:29-31; Acts 1:7-11; 1 Corinthians 1:7; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 2 Peter 3:8-9; Revelation 1:7; Revelation 22:7,12; 30 Matthew 28:18-20; Titus 2:11-14; 2 Peter 3:10-13
Our Calling
We’re called to be a tangible expression of Jesus to the world, empowered by the Spirit to proclaim the Gospel, reconcile lost people back to God, and transform them into fully devoted followers of Christ.
This calling will find expression throughout a range of ministries which will be adapted and refined to meet the changing needs of our world, however, our calling will remain the same - Jesus Christ will always be central in everything we do.
Our Culture
As we find ways of fulfilling God’s call on our lives, we will encourage a clearly Christian culture consistent with a church who lives under the leadership of Jesus Christ.
Inspired by the phrase Real People, Real Life our culture will be characterised by genuine, truthful, and transparent relationships with God, ourselves, and others, and we will pursue the fullness of life God offers through faith in Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit’s empowering
We’re a multi cultural, multi-generational church from a wide range of backgrounds and life experiences who gather together under the leadership of Jesus Christ to worship, serve, connect, and reach out to our community and the wider world.
Our culture will inspire, encourage, and transform people to become all they can be in Christ, and to live for God in ways that will influence our world.
Our Culture
Puts God first – we’re learning to love God
… recognises Christ as the head of our Church
… demonstrates Christian character in all spheres of life
… actively engages in prayer
… inspires creative & diverse expressions of worship
… practices financial stewardship and generosity
… honours the Bible as God’s word
Values People as created in God’s image – we’re learning to love people
… accepts and values people of all cultures, backgrounds and age groups.
… concerned for justice and protecting the most vulnerable in society
… commits to evangelism in NZ and support of overseas missions.
… encourages healing and wholeness of the total person (mind, soul, and spirit).
… encourages spiritual growth & maturity which leads to holy living.
… supports and strengthens family life
… facilitates friendship & fellowship
Serves wholeheartedly – we’re learning to give our best
… encourages people to use their gifts, talents, and strengths
… equips it’s people for life and ministry
… demonstrates servant leadership
… communicates ancient truth in contemporary ways
… encourages team work – we’re a body
… encourages excellence in everything – we want to give God our best.
Has a Kingdom vision – we’re learning what it means to be part of the universal Church
… works together with other like-minded churches and ministries.
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Post by fixit on Aug 14, 2014 22:20:22 GMT -5
That's OK for those who want that kind of a church but there's a fair bit of scripture referred to that's narrowly interpreted according to tradition.
I don't believe Jesus taught all that.
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Post by Mary on Aug 14, 2014 22:28:57 GMT -5
So if that was preached is there anything you would not agree with? That kind of church - meaning a Christ centered church?
The workers preach their statement of faith. You can hear it stated in meetings.
The workers narrowly preach scripture to support their doctrine.
Sorry to hijack the thread, Dennis.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 23:28:19 GMT -5
'S okay, Mary. Frequently I agree with fixit's expressions, just not on this issue.
No, Fixit, it was not you that I was quoting, rather another with whom your post seemed to agree. Even yet, I find Mary's group to be much more in line with my Lord's teaching, rather than that I've had told me over and over by the cult of 2&2 workers, I'm very sad to have to express. I've repeatedly stated from my experience it is not the average believer in 2&2ism that makes it a cult, rather the workers and their manner of life presenting themselves and their teachings as infallible, even when many of them know that is untrue.
They often present things they even know to be untrue as true. One time, as a younger worker I asked my overseer specifically about "the Cooneyite" name, whereupon he told me an outright lie which I believed and repeated to others. He was of sufficient age and knowledge he had to know what he was telling me was untrue, which when I finally discovered as untrue after my excommunication, I discovered others also knew, correctly believing me gullible for having accepted his false account as factual. That was a sad day when I discovered he had deliberately deceived me. A very sad day.
However, later, it was one of the eye openers for me, as indeed, I did and do know where such deceptions come from, and they are not from my God.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 23:38:51 GMT -5
That's OK for those who want that kind of a church but there's a fair bit of scripture referred to that's narrowly interpreted according to tradition. I don't believe Jesus taught all that. Except for the referenced C, what part of the stated scripture do you believe is narrowly interpreted in such a way as to run contrary to what Jesus taught?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 0:02:24 GMT -5
If indeed blasphemy is denying the divinity thereof, and if indeed the Holy Spirit is the means whereby the Father and Son make their abode in mankind, then for me and how my mind makes sound conclusions, that explains why the Lord Himself said all manner of sin and blasphemy can be forgiven mankind, even against the Father and Son, except blasphemy of that Holy Spirit, for he simply is the very means whereby one receives such forgiveness, and denial of Divinity would preclude such ever happening.
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Post by rational on Aug 15, 2014 0:30:09 GMT -5
No problem at all Dennis. I just thought I was losing it because I couldn't remember saying that. ;) Annoying, isn't it?
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Post by snow on Aug 15, 2014 10:50:52 GMT -5
No problem at all Dennis. I just thought I was losing it because I couldn't remember saying that. Annoying, isn't it? Not really. More baffling. But then I baffle easily...
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Post by faune on Aug 15, 2014 11:18:04 GMT -5
So if that was preached is there anything you would not agree with? That kind of church - meaning a Christ centered church? The workers preach their statement of faith. You can hear it stated in meetings. The workers narrowly preach scripture to support their doctrine. Sorry to hijack the thread, Dennis. Mary ~ I tend to agree with you on that one! Also, for those looking for simplicity within a church structure, many churches today have integrated "small groups" in the homes of church members, which enables them to become more connected as a church famiily within their own community. My church has done that for years now. However, I agree with you that sound doctrine involves presenting the real gospel message of Jesus Christ. This needs to be taught and not some exclusive alternative method of worship labeled God's one and only true way, where the focus is on the workers and their sacrifice and pleasing them more than on Jesus Christ. That was one of the big differences I noticed between outside Bible-centered churches (expository teaching) and the 2x2's, shortly after departing the F&W fellowship. For me, it was like being exposed to a whole new version of Christianity compared to what we were taught by the workers, which was a real shocker to my system. I had no idea how little I knew about what the Bible actually taught until getting more involved in church Bible study groups and seeing how people related to one another on the outside. Instead of the walls beng up all the time for fear of being perceived less than perfect, there was genuine transparency and people weren't afraid to share their true selves and experiences. If there was one thing I really valued about the outside churches I have attended, it has been the genuine transparency before others, which I found very refreshing and inspiring, making church attendance much more enjoyable. Honestly, I went from dreading attending the meetings to really enjoying church service, which was a big change for me!
Below is an excerpt from the Introduction to a Testimony of a friend who was a worker for 28 years before becoming more enlightened about Jesus and what He actually taught after leaving the 2x2's. She also "saw the light" differently and being exposed to a Bible-based church environment (stressing expository teaching) on the other side of the fence. Once she got involved in "inductive Bible study," her whole perspective changed from her new found Christian knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 11:46:04 GMT -5
...and you had just reason to be baffled, snow, and again, I am sorry for that cause. Also I am very glad you spoke up so I had this chance of putting things correctly before everyone.
This I know, perhaps because I'm 6'3" (or once was) and 250 (or should it be expressed 200 and plenty?) but I don't perceive anyone shoving something down my throat, except various branches of the government and the political views promoting various programs. Some who would even attempt to use this forum to do so. Such is just a part of life.
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Post by snow on Aug 15, 2014 11:55:20 GMT -5
...and you had just reason to be baffled, snow, and again, I am sorry for that cause. Also I am very glad you spoke up so I had this chance of putting things correctly before everyone.
This I know, perhaps because I'm 6'3" (or once was) and 250 (or should it be expressed 200 and plenty?) but I don't perceive anyone shoving something down my throat, except various branches of the government and the political views promoting various programs. Some who would even attempt to use this forum to do so. Such is just a part of life. I don't think there is any 'shoving down' going on when it's just people talking and voicing their opinions. It's more when we have to live with disastrous decisions made by politicians, wars, groups that make across the board changes that effect everyone and sometimes without their consent and in abusive relationships. But just talking has never seemed like that to me. We all believe different things and sharing that helps us to understand others better. It's doesn't mean we have to take those beliefs as our own. They are out there to consider and we have the option of agreeing or discarding. When there is no option allowed, that's when the shoving comes into play and sometimes more than shoving. So far on here no one has 'made' me do anything and I don't anticipate it will ever happen.
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Post by faune on Aug 15, 2014 12:13:26 GMT -5
...and you had just reason to be baffled, snow, and again, I am sorry for that cause. Also I am very glad you spoke up so I had this chance of putting things correctly before everyone.
This I know, perhaps because I'm 6'3" (or once was) and 250 (or should it be expressed 200 and plenty?) but I don't perceive anyone shoving something down my throat, except various branches of the government and the political views promoting various programs. Some who would even attempt to use this forum to do so. Such is just a part of life. Dennis ~ I'm sorry if any of my words got misconstrued here. I was commenting about church doctrine, such as the Trinity concept, which should not be crammed down somebody throat as being essential to their salvation. After all, church doctrine is just a way of understanding one's beliefs. Teachings about the Trinity and the gospel message of salvation needs to be revealed to one's heart through Bible study and the Holy Spirit working on the inside. It took me years to comprehend this subject matter myself, so I wouldn't expect anybody to embrace it without extensive study, too.
Also, you have to be open to new knowledge to be able to grow spiritually in the inner man. Fear keeps a lot of people from experiencing new life through Christ's indwelling presence, enlightening our path. This is truly sad and mainly due to the man-made rules and requirements connected to religious beliefs? However, Jesus did simply teach that those who "seek will find and those who knock will have it opened unto them," and I believe that to be true in life. But, when things get so restrictive in doctrinal beliefs, I feel we may lose something in transition of the simplicity found only in Christ, as Fixit remarked? However, sound doctrine is also essential to our understanding of God and His purpose for our lives, so I feel it must also be taught as well to truly experience new life in Christ.
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Post by faune on Aug 15, 2014 12:15:41 GMT -5
...and you had just reason to be baffled, snow, and again, I am sorry for that cause. Also I am very glad you spoke up so I had this chance of putting things correctly before everyone.
This I know, perhaps because I'm 6'3" (or once was) and 250 (or should it be expressed 200 and plenty?) but I don't perceive anyone shoving something down my throat, except various branches of the government and the political views promoting various programs. Some who would even attempt to use this forum to do so. Such is just a part of life. I don't think there is any 'shoving down' going on when it's just people talking and voicing their opinions. It's more when we have to live with disastrous decisions made by politicians, wars, groups that make across the board changes that effect everyone and sometimes without their consent and in abusive relationships. But just talking has never seemed like that to me. We all believe different things and sharing that helps us to understand others better. It's doesn't mean we have to take those beliefs as our own. They are out there to consider and we have the option of agreeing or discarding. When there is no option allowed, that's when the shoving comes into play and sometimes more than shoving. So far on here no one has 'made' me do anything and I don't anticipate it will ever happen. Snow ~ Ditto! We are all free agents here and can accept or reject what anybody says or take it to heart as wisdom gained from another's experience.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 15, 2014 13:44:04 GMT -5
Not really. More baffling. But then I baffle easily... Isn't baffling better then waffling? Isn't waffling where you don't even have an idea?
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Post by snow on Aug 15, 2014 14:45:14 GMT -5
Not really. More baffling. But then I baffle easily... Isn't baffling better then waffling? Isn't waffling where you don't even have an idea? I suppose it is! However I must sometimes waffle if that's the case, because sometimes I really do have 'no idea'.
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Post by fixit on Aug 15, 2014 16:40:58 GMT -5
Below is an excerpt from the Introduction to a Testimony of a friend who was a worker for 28 years before becoming more enlightened about Jesus and what He actually taught after leaving the 2x2's. She also "saw the light" differently and being exposed to a Bible-based church environment (stressing expository teaching) on the other side of the fence. Once she got involved in "inductive Bible study," her whole perspective changed from her new found Christian knowledge.
Are the underlined statements related?
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Post by faune on Aug 15, 2014 19:41:02 GMT -5
Below is an excerpt from the Introduction to a Testimony of a friend who was a worker for 28 years before becoming more enlightened about Jesus and what He actually taught after leaving the 2x2's. She also "saw the light" differently and being exposed to a Bible-based church environment (stressing expository teaching) on the other side of the fence. Once she got involved in "inductive Bible study," her whole perspective changed from her new found Christian knowledge.
Are the underlined statements related? Fixit ~ I would stress that the words quoted above are from an ex-worker who spent 28 years of her life in the work and a number of them overseas. She's saw a lot during those years and learned a few things, too, about how the system works. However, when it comes to being led by the Spirit, I think you have to make sure that what you believe to be true is actually backed up by Bible teaching and not just programming over the years passed down by workers and friends. I feel we all have to learn to be critical thinkers and really evaluate what we believe and why. Searching the scriptures as well as outside sources for answer to these probing questions usually is recommended for enlightenment, as you cannot believe everything you hear, and must pick and choose what resonances best with you.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 16, 2014 10:43:03 GMT -5
...and you had just reason to be baffled, snow, and again, I am sorry for that cause. Also I am very glad you spoke up so I had this chance of putting things correctly before everyone.
This I know, perhaps because I'm 6'3" (or once was) and 250 (or should it be expressed 200 and plenty?) but I don't perceive anyone shoving something down my throat, except various branches of the government and the political views promoting various programs. Some who would even attempt to use this forum to do so. Such is just a part of life. Dennis ~ I'm sorry if any of my words got misconstrued here. I was commenting about church doctrine, such as the Trinity concept, which should not be crammed down somebody throat as being essential to their salvation. After all, church doctrine is just a way of understanding one's beliefs. Teachings about the Trinity and the gospel message of salvation needs to be revealed to one's heart through Bible study and the Holy Spirit working on the inside. It took me years to comprehend this subject matter myself, so I wouldn't expect anybody to embrace it without extensive study, too.
Also, you have to be open to new knowledge to be able to grow spiritually in the inner man. Fear keeps a lot of people from experiencing new life through Christ's indwelling presence, enlightening our path. This is truly sad and mainly due to the man-made rules and requirements connected to religious beliefs? However, Jesus did simply teach that those who "seek will find and those who knock will have it opened unto them," and I believe that to be true in life. But, when things get so restrictive in doctrinal beliefs, I feel we may lose something in transition of the simplicity found only in Christ, as Fixit remarked? However, sound doctrine is also essential to our understanding of God and His purpose for our lives, so I feel it must also be taught as well to truly experience new life in Christ.
Reminded me of what Paul said about the difference between those who were not able for anything but the "milk of the word" in contrast to those who were able for "the meat of the word"..... Hebrew 5:12-14 For when from the time ye ought to be teachers ,ye have need to be that one teach you again which be THE FIRST PRINCIPLES of the oracles of God;and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskillfull in the Word of rightousness:for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age ,even those who by reason of use have their senses exercized to discern both good and evil.
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Post by fixit on Aug 16, 2014 22:47:01 GMT -5
Reminded me of what Paul said about the difference between those who were not able for anything but the "milk of the word" in contrast to those who were able for "the meat of the word"..... Hebrew 5:12-14 For when from the time ye ought to be teachers ,ye have need to be that one teach you again which be THE FIRST PRINCIPLES of the oracles of God;and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskillfull in the Word of rightousness:for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age ,even those who by reason of use have their senses exercized to discern both good and evil. What have man's religious theories got to do with distinguishing good from evil? Hebrews 5:11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
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Post by faune on Aug 16, 2014 23:35:57 GMT -5
'S okay, Mary. Frequently I agree with fixit's expressions, just not on this issue.
No, Fixit, it was not you that I was quoting, rather another with whom your post seemed to agree. Even yet, I find Mary's group to be much more in line with my Lord's teaching, rather than that I've had told me over and over by the cult of 2&2 workers, I'm very sad to have to express. I've repeatedly stated from my experience it is not the average believer in 2&2ism that makes it a cult, rather the workers and their manner of life presenting themselves and their teachings as infallible, even when many of them know that is untrue.
They often present things they even know to be untrue as true. One time, as a younger worker I asked my overseer specifically about "the Cooneyite" name, whereupon he told me an outright lie which I believed and repeated to others. He was of sufficient age and knowledge he had to know what he was telling me was untrue, which when I finally discovered as untrue after my excommunication, I discovered others also knew, correctly believing me gullible for having accepted his false account as factual. That was a sad day when I discovered he had deliberately deceived me. A very sad day.
However, later, it was one of the eye openers for me, as indeed, I did and do know where such deceptions come from, and they are not from my God. Dennis ~ Fixit can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he was only stating that what Jesus actually taught within the gospels was simpler than what developed over the centuries as accepted church dogma within early Christianity? However, all you have to do is study the early church history to see what the first Christians believed about Jesus of Nazareth during the first century and how the storyline developed in content and scope over the following centuries , which led to the formation of organized Christianity during the early 4th century under Emperor Constantine. The Nicene Creed, which was drawn up in 325 A.D. and later amended in 381 A.D. at Constantinople, constituted the agreed upon beliefs of the early church in writing when Christianity became the legal religion of Rome.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed
I shared earlier...
Dennis ~ Also, in regards to your statement about being deliberately mislead about the Cooneyites connection to the 2x2's, I do not doubt you, since the same thing happened to me. Before I even professed, my mother found a small book about heresies that developed over the centuries and a description of the Cooneyites was found within this book. She pointed it out to me and after I read it, I could see there might be a connection. However, the senior worker, Vera Smith, in our area denied any connection to this group when I presented her with the book and asked her personally if they were associated in any way with this group back in time. Years later, after I had left the faith and learned about its history, I asked her younger companion at that time why I was wrongly informed. She was aware it was a false statement, but asked me what difference would it have made if I knew the truth? I told her all the difference in the world, since their group was labeled a cult back in time, because their teachings didn't really line up with the Bible. Also, I told her, it didn't go back to any shores of Galilee with Jesus as the only founder either.
However, another time back in the late 1970's I was made aware of a possible connection with the Faith Mission in Ireland and a man who left that group and formed the 2x2 religion. Again, when I asked for clarification, I was told by the senior worker that there was no connection and I should not be looking for one. She made me feel ashamed for even asking her about it. So, as you can see, I do understand your sentiment over being deliberately deceived by a group that called themselves the Truth.
You can find a used copy of this old book, entitled Heresies Exposed on Amazon for $.01 plus $3.99 postage, if you are interested in reading the description of the Cooneyites on Pages 73-78 in this book? I found this book very interesting, since it dealt with many of the heresies that arose during the 19th century, which dealt with restoring Christianity back to its original roots, which included the 2x2's ( a.k.a. Cooneyites) under the leadership of William Irvine in 1897. At the time this book was written, the 2x2's was a young sect, but very easy to identify from the description given here. As luck would have it, I found this book again on Amazon later on after leaving the 2x2's, which brought back memories of those first days as an outsider in gospel meetings back in 1965 and my early discussion with the workers over the roots of the 2x2's.
www.amazon.com/Heresies-exposed-examination-Scriptures-prevailing/dp/0872134016/ref=pd_cp_b_0
Heresies Exposed ~ by William C. Irvine (1921) (Third Edition)
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Post by fixit on Aug 17, 2014 1:17:22 GMT -5
Also, in regards to your statement about being deliberately mislead about the Cooneyites connection to the 2x2's, I do not doubt you, since the same thing happened to me. Before I even professed, my mother found a small book about heresies that developed over the centuries and a description of the Cooneyites was found within this book. She pointed it out to me and after I read it, I could see there might be a connection. However, the senior worker, Vera Smith, in our area denied any connection to this group when I presented her with the book and asked her personally if they were associated in any way with this group back in time. Years later, after I had left the faith and learned about its history, I asked her younger companion at that time why I was wrongly informed. She was aware it was a false statement, but asked me what difference would it have made if I knew the truth? I told her all the difference in the world, since their group was labeled a cult back in time, because their teachings didn't really line up with the Bible. Also, I told her, it didn't go back to any shores of Galilee with Jesus as the only founder either. However, another time back in the late 1970's I was made aware of a possible connection with the Faith Mission in Ireland and a man who left that group and formed the 2x2 religion. Again, when I asked for clarification, I was told by the senior worker that there was no connection and I should not be looking for one. She made me feel ashamed for even asking her about it. So, as you can see, I do understand your sentiment over being deliberately deceived by a group that called themselves the Truth. Faune, I'm sorry that you were lied to. And I'm sorry that the overseers over the last 30 years have allowed the deception to continue.
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Post by faune on Aug 17, 2014 1:27:07 GMT -5
Also, in regards to your statement about being deliberately mislead about the Cooneyites connection to the 2x2's, I do not doubt you, since the same thing happened to me. Before I even professed, my mother found a small book about heresies that developed over the centuries and a description of the Cooneyites was found within this book. She pointed it out to me and after I read it, I could see there might be a connection. However, the senior worker, Vera Smith, in our area denied any connection to this group when I presented her with the book and asked her personally if they were associated in any way with this group back in time. Years later, after I had left the faith and learned about its history, I asked her younger companion at that time why I was wrongly informed. She was aware it was a false statement, but asked me what difference would it have made if I knew the truth? I told her all the difference in the world, since their group was labeled a cult back in time, because their teachings didn't really line up with the Bible. Also, I told her, it didn't go back to any shores of Galilee with Jesus as the only founder either. However, another time back in the late 1970's I was made aware of a possible connection with the Faith Mission in Ireland and a man who left that group and formed the 2x2 religion. Again, when I asked for clarification, I was told by the senior worker that there was no connection and I should not be looking for one. She made me feel ashamed for even asking her about it. So, as you can see, I do understand your sentiment over being deliberately deceived by a group that called themselves the Truth. Faune, I'm sorry that you were lied to. And I'm sorry that the overseers over the last 30 years have allowed the deception to continue. Fixit ~ Thank you for your kind words. I'm also sorry that the overseers still continue to allow this deception to continue, even when there's ample evidence to the contrary all over the Internet today. Who do they think they're actually fooling anyway ~ beside themselves?
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