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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 21:16:42 GMT -5
Change is for was and seemed for now seems? Or do you know something the rest of us don't Rational? I was simply reading what was reported on more than one site. I didn't see a statement that he was an atheist. Just asking the question. Whenever I exchange posts with you Rational, I am left wondering if we speak the same language. Your post talked of Robin Williams as if he was still alive. Just seemed funny to me.
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Post by faune on Aug 13, 2014 21:20:49 GMT -5
Snow ~ I feel this article addresses severe depression in a much clearer light myself. Anybody caught up in such a mental fog really don't rationalize very well, IMHO.
Robin Williams was one of my favorite actors and will be greatly missed for the humor he brought into our lives.
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Post by faune on Aug 13, 2014 21:56:48 GMT -5
a tragedy to say the least... in the bible we have 3 cases of suicide(that i could find)King Saul, Samson and Judas, all ended badly. there is nothing in the bible against suicide but neither is there anything for suicide...its a 50/50 chance in my estimation that you'll go to hell for self-murder... Wally ~ Thank you for bringing that fact to our attention. You are so right about there being nothing in the Bible against suicide. In fact, this article covers this topic pretty well. Although some religious people may promote this opinion, there's nothing in scripture to support their opinion in any way. Also, as you brought out about different ones in the bible who committed suicide, I'm reminded of Samson; however, that didn't keep him from being found on the list of the faithful ones in Hebrews 11:31-35. This just goes to show that you can't believe everything you hear on a topic like suicide. However, I believe God knows our hearts better than we even do ourselves and He will be a righteous judge in the end.
christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/a/Bible-Suicide.htm What Does the Bible Say About Suicide?
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11%3A31-35&version=AMP Hebrews 11:31-35
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 13, 2014 22:20:48 GMT -5
Ross, Where is your proof of this statement? "1. The assisted suicide or euthanasia agenda is being driven by atheists."
Over 20 years ago when I first joined a group to advocate the the right to choose when one dies, (euthanasia) the group consisted of mostly religious people.
Do you have different stats for the present ? Or is that comment just another backhanded slap at atheists?
The drive to legalise euthanasia or assisted suicide has not been driven by religious groups who believe in God - that's pretty clear! It's not a backhanded slap at all - it's reality. I would expect an atheist to take the position that they have the right to choose when they would end their own life - wouldn't you? Ross, I ask you where your info came from. Quotes, in other words, -not your opinion.
Have you actually took a look at any of these movements to legalize assisted suicide ?
I'm a registered nurse and have actually known about & been engaged in working towards those goals for many years because I have seen more people die than I can remember & I have seen the unbelievable suffering many went through.
One of the first people I met in the movement over twenty years ago was a minister. I'm quite sure that he believed in God. He was far from the only one. In fact I would say probably it was more religious people than otherwise at that time.
They had empathy with the many people they saw dying just as I did.
Now when you start actually offering any statistics on the subject, we can talk.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2014 22:22:21 GMT -5
Did any of the Western canon authors have no belief system? Which version of the Bible do you read? Don't know the answer to your first question. Here is the list of 26 authors selected by Harold Bloom for his Western Canon: Shakespeare, Dante, Chaucer, Cervantes, Montaigne, Molière, John Milton, Samuel Johnson, Goethe, Wordsworth, Jane Austen, Walt Whitman, Emily Dickinson, Charles Dickens, George Eliot, Tolstoy, Henrik Ibsen, Freud, Proust, James Joyce, Virginia Woolf, Franz Kafka, Jorge Luis Borges, Pablo Neruda, Fernando Pessoa and Samuel Beckett. Other critics have selected other authors, many post-modern critics challenge the entire concept of cultural canons. My thinking happens to be most closely aligned with Harold Bloom’s perspective. The "belief systems" of these (or other) authors has been of little interest to me, I am more interested in the works they have produced. I have found some of the works of some of the authors to be quite provocative. Please feel free to explore their "belief systems" at your leisure. Regarding your second question, I do not read the bible regularly. When I have reason to read a portion, I most frequently turn to the KJV since I am most familiar with the vernacular and cadence of that version. Hmmm. Sounds like a good canon. I spent a whole semester with Chaucer. Do you suppose the Wife of Bath ever men King Solomon? Your answer to question one negates the necessity of question two.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2014 22:23:37 GMT -5
You expect a lot of things from people who aren't in your reality bubble. Your bubble needs some window cleaner. I thought I was responding to Dmg But there you go again - having a go at people who don't see it the way you see it. Perhaps your reality bubble is a little clouded? Pushy, ain't I.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2014 22:27:18 GMT -5
Do you suppose the real reason society at large is against suicide is that it robs the powerful, whether religious or secular, of the power of the ultimate threat? Definitely. That's why the insurance companies made suicide illegal -- it saves them from paying out the death benefits.
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Post by faune on Aug 13, 2014 22:30:03 GMT -5
Snow ~ I agree that when a person gets to such a place where suicide seems the only option for ending their pain, they have exhausted other options of coping in their mind. That's indeed sad, but it's a fact that when people make up their mind along these lines, they usually go through with it soon down the road. Depression can seriously affect one's over-all health and can put you into a downward spiral that is hard to recover from once in motion. Perhaps this is what happened to Robin Williams or the medical treatment just wasn't working as prescribed and made things worse? However, when anybody has reached that state of mind where they are considering ending it all for relief, they are probably hanging on by a thread, regardless of their lack of profession of faith. Depressed people usually are not thinking very clearly when so despondent, regardless of their religious persuasion, and suicide may just seems convenient at the time for ending their emotional or physical pain?
Honestly, I feel atheists would be more focused upon making this life count for something, especially if they don't believe in an afterlife? However, they probably would be the first to choose suicide in a hopeless situation involving much suffering? Faith in God does have its benefits when it comes to enduring suffering and pain in this life. It gives them hope of a brighter afterlife, even if this world becomes the pits, IMHO?
faune, two things jumped out at me and gave me pause. Your comment " Depressed people usually are not thinking very clearly when so despondent, regardless of their religious persuasion, and suicide may just seems convenient at the time for ending their emotional or physical pain?" I don't think suicide is ever considered 'convenient' by anyone, let alone the one who ends their life. When you reach that point you have lost all hope. You cannot envision life ever getting better or the pain of living to ever ease. There are some that will call a distress line like I worked on and they are usually the ones that still are holding out a thread of hope that someone, somewhere can help them. But those who are truly 'done' will not reach out, they will just do it. I don't think they are considering suicide to be 'better', but rather ending the pain. Religious people will have different views of course, of where the person who commits suicide goes, but atheists don't go down that path of thinking.
You confuse me when you say on one hand that atheists are the ones that probably would value life the most because it's the only one they have (paraphrased) and then on the other you feel that atheists are probably more prone to suicide than people of religion. I can only speak for myself here, but while I do value life and believe this is it for me, I also don't see how it makes sense to continue a life that no longer leaves the person any dignity, hope or release from pain. It makes no sense to me to live out my days on a machine for example. Or, if I have a disease for which there is no cure and I am going to be so incapacitated that I not only have no quality of life, but others are also inconvenienced by my lingering, then I see no reason to continue my life. I think most people, religious or not can understand that. To be honest it makes more sense that someone who believes in an afterlife that is wondrous, would be more inclined to get this one done and over with so they can experience that wonderful afterlife. Unless of course you happen to be in a religion that believes suicide is a ticket straight to hell, then I can see how it might help you decide to prolong things. Snow ~ Sorry I didn't express myself clearer above and probably threw in a few wrong words to boot. However, to clarify myself, I feel most atheists put a higher priority on making this life count, since they don't envision an afterlife. However, when it comes to their quality of life being greatly diminished and devoid of dignity and meaning due to terminal illness or unbearable pain , they would be the first to elect something like suicide or euthanasia. To be honest, I would be inclined to feel the same way you described above under the circumstances of a hopeless situation with no quality of life apparent and also an inconvenience to family by my lingering. I feel people should be given options and be able to elect euthanasia under such detrimental circumstances, if that is their wish, too. Perhaps that's one good reason to have a "living will" in place, if you find yourself in such a compromised situation with no hope in sight? I feel Dmmichgood made a valid point along these lines a few posts back from her many years as a nurse and getting to see more than her fair share of pain and suffering. For sure, until you are actually walking in somebody's shoes, one has no idea the anguish some people must feel to even consider suicide as an option in the first place, regardless of their religious persuasion? Dmmichgood shared...
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 13, 2014 22:30:55 GMT -5
You expect a lot of things from people who aren't in your reality bubble. Your bubble needs some window cleaner. I thought I was responding to Dmg But there you go again - having a go at people who don't see it the way you see it. Perhaps your reality bubble is a little clouded?
Ross, I tend to think that it is YOUR reality bubble is clouded.
That & you make statements without any proof.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 13, 2014 22:43:12 GMT -5
Do you suppose the real reason society at large is against suicide is that it robs the powerful, whether religious or secular, of the power of the ultimate threat? Definitely. That's why the insurance companies made suicide illegal -- it saves them from paying out the death benefits. Insurance companies making suicide illegal so they didn't have to pay the insurance was one of the first things we went after.
Not only was it unfair for the person who had paid their premiums all their life and then deny the person near & dear to them the money, it led to such incidents where the person would try to make their death appear an accident.
Think of all the scenarios that could happen with that? Even at times subjecting their family to the possibility of being accused of murder.
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Post by snow on Aug 13, 2014 23:00:00 GMT -5
faune, two things jumped out at me and gave me pause. Your comment " Depressed people usually are not thinking very clearly when so despondent, regardless of their religious persuasion, and suicide may just seems convenient at the time for ending their emotional or physical pain?" I don't think suicide is ever considered 'convenient' by anyone, let alone the one who ends their life. When you reach that point you have lost all hope. You cannot envision life ever getting better or the pain of living to ever ease. There are some that will call a distress line like I worked on and they are usually the ones that still are holding out a thread of hope that someone, somewhere can help them. But those who are truly 'done' will not reach out, they will just do it. I don't think they are considering suicide to be 'better', but rather ending the pain. Religious people will have different views of course, of where the person who commits suicide goes, but atheists don't go down that path of thinking.
You confuse me when you say on one hand that atheists are the ones that probably would value life the most because it's the only one they have (paraphrased) and then on the other you feel that atheists are probably more prone to suicide than people of religion. I can only speak for myself here, but while I do value life and believe this is it for me, I also don't see how it makes sense to continue a life that no longer leaves the person any dignity, hope or release from pain. It makes no sense to me to live out my days on a machine for example. Or, if I have a disease for which there is no cure and I am going to be so incapacitated that I not only have no quality of life, but others are also inconvenienced by my lingering, then I see no reason to continue my life. I think most people, religious or not can understand that. To be honest it makes more sense that someone who believes in an afterlife that is wondrous, would be more inclined to get this one done and over with so they can experience that wonderful afterlife. Unless of course you happen to be in a religion that believes suicide is a ticket straight to hell, then I can see how it might help you decide to prolong things. Snow ~ Sorry I didn't express myself clearer above and probably threw in a few wrong words to boot. However, to clarify myself, I feel most atheists put a higher priority on making this life count, since they don't envision an afterlife. However, when it comes to their quality of life being greatly diminished and devoid of dignity and meaning due to terminal illness or unbearable pain , they would be the first to elect something like suicide or euthanasia. To be honest, I would be inclined to feel the same way you described above under the circumstances of a hopeless situation with no quality of life apparent and also an inconvenience to family by my lingering. I feel people should be given options and be able to elect euthanasia under such detrimental circumstances, if that is their wish, too. Perhaps that's one good reason to have a "living will" in place, if you find yourself in such a compromised situation with no hope in sight? I feel Dmmichgood made a valid point along these lines a few posts back from her many years as a nurse and getting to see more than her fair share of pain and suffering. For sure, until you are actually walking in somebody's shoes, one has no idea the anguish some people must feel to even consider suicide as an option in the first place, regardless of their religious persuasion? Dmmichgood shared...
I really don't see any difference in whether one is religious or not when it comes to suicide. Once you are in a state that is such a deep depression, nothing else would be as important to you than ending the pain. I agree it should be an option for those in physical pain or a debilitating disease. But that is a different subject really.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 13, 2014 23:08:35 GMT -5
I suspect what contributes to your surprise is your lack of reliable statistics and your obvious disapproval of atheists. But then, such surprise is not surprising from anyone who thinks that the euthanasia agenda is being drive by atheists. Come on, Ross, that statement was nothing more than a flippant swap at atheists. Have you ever been to a euthanasia support group meeting? Who thought of the derogatory term "assisted suicide" anyway? Something like the supposed "death panels" Obama care was supposed to have brought into being. Euthanasia is not about cheating the creator of his right to end life -- euthanasia is more about allowing the creator to take the life, and keep the politicians and medical professionals from preserving them as breathing vegetables. I thought this comment was specifically about you. Bob, I have a number of good friends who are atheists. My comment is not having a go at all against atheists - it's just a reality that those groups who are pushing to legalise euthanasia in many countries are humanists who are typically (but not always) aligned with secularists and non-theistic religions (if any religion ie they are often atheists) .
It's interesting how Christians can be accused about worshipping "a God of the gaps" and other terms that are laughingly flung around about Christians (including on this board) but the moment that something is said about atheism and euthanasia/assisted suicide the accusations about having cheap shots at atheists fly. I'm not so sure that euthanasia is more about allowing the creator to take the life....although understand where you are coming from. The main Euthanasia advocate in Australia, Dr Nitcschke, a humanist has recently been deregistered by the medical board in Australia for allegedly assisting a healthy 45 year old to end his life. His appeal is currently underway. In my view, euthanasia/assisted suicide is a potentially slippery slope. Because it was a cheap shot at atheists when you made such a statement as if it were the truth but you have no proof thereof.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 13, 2014 23:40:24 GMT -5
Definitely. That's why the insurance companies made suicide illegal -- it saves them from paying out the death benefits. Insurance companies making suicide illegal so they didn't have to pay the insurance was one of the first things we went after.
Not only was it unfair for the person who had paid their premiums all their life and then deny the person near & dear to them the money, it led to such incidents where the person would try to make their death appear an accident.
Think of all the scenarios that could happen with that? Even at times subjecting their family to the possibility of being accused of murder.
It rather boggles the mind the number of ways greed can show its slimy head. Do you know if insurance companies now have gotten away from the absolute-no-compensation-whatsoever policy. It's not beyond our insurance companies to defraud policy holders.
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Post by emy on Aug 13, 2014 23:43:22 GMT -5
Do you suppose the real reason society at large is against suicide is that it robs the powerful, whether religious or secular, of the power of the ultimate threat? No Gene, that explanation does not really resonate with me. Rather, I think that it is difficult for the majority of society to contemplate the despair that must be experienced by one who chooses suicide. I suspect that it is fear of that abyss that causes most in a society to "be against" suicide. Masada and Jonestown not withstanding, I don't think suicide is commonly selected as an alternative in the face of "the ultimate threat by 'the powerful'" That opinion is shared by the author of the article Snow shared: popchassid.com/robin-williams-didnt-kill/It can be so hard to understand for the mentally healthy. Just as I cannot possibly comprehend what it means for someone to have AIDS or cancer, I think it can be truly hard for people to wrap their minds around the idea that for some people, a choice cannot be a choice. That someone could feel so depressed, so low, that their perception of reality is so distorted that they feel that lack of life is preferable to life.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 14, 2014 0:59:29 GMT -5
Insurance companies making suicide illegal so they didn't have to pay the insurance was one of the first things we went after.
Not only was it unfair for the person who had paid their premiums all their life and then deny the person near & dear to them the money, it led to such incidents where the person would try to make their death appear an accident.
Think of all the scenarios that could happen with that? Even at times subjecting their family to the possibility of being accused of murder.
It rather boggles the mind the number of ways greed can show its slimy head. Do you know if insurance companies now have gotten away from the absolute-no-compensation-whatsoever policy. It's not beyond our insurance companies to defraud policy holders. I don't know how a lot of the legalities stand anymore. I don't keep up on it. I know at the beginning that was one of the things we fought & won.
BTW I just had a fund raiser phone call from a group and they stated that Quebec had recently voted something like 80 to 40 for a bill on assisted suicide. I'm not sure I have the specs exactly right. I can't find it on any news source.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 14, 2014 1:16:55 GMT -5
Do you suppose the real reason society at large is against suicide is that it robs the powerful, whether religious or secular, of the power of the ultimate threat? No Gene, that explanation does not really resonate with me. Rather, I think that it is difficult for the majority of society to contemplate the despair that must be experienced by one who chooses suicide. I suspect that it is fear of that abyss that causes most in a society to "be against" suicide. Masada and Jonestown not withstanding, I don't think suicide is commonly selected as an alternative in the face of "the ultimate threat by 'the powerful'" Actually, I don't think it is "fear of that abyss that causes most in a society to be against suicide," as much as it is the whole evolution of mankind is built on the desire to survive. Therefore suicide is anathema to that.
However, 'the powerful' in the form of the Church certainly used it's power to coerce people from committing suicide. At one time the Church would have a suicide victim tied on a rope & dragged through the streets of the city as an example.
Of course at the same time it was quite alright for the Church to burn someone else at the stake!
What crazy mixed up values!
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 14, 2014 1:19:14 GMT -5
It rather boggles the mind the number of ways greed can show its slimy head. Do you know if insurance companies now have gotten away from the absolute-no-compensation-whatsoever policy. It's not beyond our insurance companies to defraud policy holders. I don't know how a lot of the legalities stand anymore. I don't keep up on it. I know at the beginning that was one of the things we fought & won.
BTW I just had a fund raiser phone call from a group and they stated that Quebec had recently voted something like 80 to 40 for a bill on assisted suicide. I'm not sure I have the specs exactly right. I can't find it on any news source.
Interesting news, but for me it's not surprising. The push to legalize it originated with the medical doctors who are assisting patients anyway and don't want to be prosecuted if they are "caught". It creates a situation for them in Canada like the situation of medical marijuana states in the US. The Canadian constitution outlaws assisted suicide, but enforcing the ban province wide is going to prove as futile as eliminating illegal drug trafficking. I'm kind of smiling because it is quite in the Québécois nature to demand that they not be forced to be hypocrites. How I loved living in Quebec city.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 14, 2014 1:25:44 GMT -5
No Gene, that explanation does not really resonate with me. Rather, I think that it is difficult for the majority of society to contemplate the despair that must be experienced by one who chooses suicide. I suspect that it is fear of that abyss that causes most in a society to "be against" suicide. Masada and Jonestown not withstanding, I don't think suicide is commonly selected as an alternative in the face of "the ultimate threat by 'the powerful'" Actually, I don't think it is "fear of that abyss that causes most in a society to be against suicide," as much as it is the whole evolution of mankind is built on the desire to survive. Therefore suicide is anathema to that.
However, 'the powerful' in the form of the Church certainly used it's power to coerce people from committing suicide. At one time the Church would have a suicide victim tied on a rope & dragged through the streets of the city as an example.
Of course at the same time it was quite alright for the Church to burn someone else at the stake!
What crazy mixed up values!
I'm reminded of the case in Uruguay where a 9-year old was raped by her father and became pregnant. The doctor informed her mother that if she did not have an abortion there was no chance for her to survive the pregnancy. So the mother consented, and both the mother and daughter were summarily excommunicated from the church. Editorials concerning the case addressed the fact that if the mother should have let the girl die -- after all, it was god's "obviously" god's plan to "call her home" at that time. That's as sick as some of the politicians who were running for office in the last election.
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Post by rational on Aug 14, 2014 7:59:38 GMT -5
I was simply reading what was reported on more than one site. I didn't see a statement that he was an atheist. Just asking the question. Whenever I exchange posts with you Rational, I am left wondering if we speak the same language. :) Your post talked of Robin Williams as if he was still alive. Just seemed funny to me. My post was expressing things he said and comments that were made when he was alive.
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Post by rational on Aug 14, 2014 8:12:24 GMT -5
I really don't see any difference in whether one is religious or not when it comes to suicide. Once you are in a state that is such a deep depression, nothing else would be as important to you than ending the pain. I agree it should be an option for those in physical pain or a debilitating disease. But that is a different subject really. Depression is not the only cause of suicide. Very often someone who attempts suicide is labeled as depressed when there has been no prior diagnosis.
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Post by Annan on Aug 14, 2014 9:05:31 GMT -5
I wonder if the fact that Robin Williams was an atheist was the reason, "Robin Williams' daughter Zelda is taking a break from social media after she was sent hurtful messages about the death of her father." The reason Zelda is getting hurtful messages about her father is because the senders are *bleep bleep bleep bleep*'s.
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Post by rational on Aug 14, 2014 9:37:28 GMT -5
I wonder if the fact that Robin Williams was an atheist was the reason, "Robin Williams' daughter Zelda is taking a break from social media after she was sent hurtful messages about the death of her father." The reason Zelda is getting hurtful messages about her father is because the senders are *bleep bleep bleep bleep*'s. I wonder if they are atheists.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 14, 2014 10:41:28 GMT -5
Or maybe just humans......
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Post by Annan on Aug 14, 2014 11:19:22 GMT -5
Or maybe just humans...... Sounds like you are excusing them. Those who have little respect for the heartache and pain of losing a loved one are... I would get kicked off the forum if I said exactly what I think of such people.
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Post by snow on Aug 14, 2014 11:24:30 GMT -5
No Gene, that explanation does not really resonate with me. Rather, I think that it is difficult for the majority of society to contemplate the despair that must be experienced by one who chooses suicide. I suspect that it is fear of that abyss that causes most in a society to "be against" suicide. Masada and Jonestown not withstanding, I don't think suicide is commonly selected as an alternative in the face of "the ultimate threat by 'the powerful'" Actually, I don't think it is "fear of that abyss that causes most in a society to be against suicide," as much as it is the whole evolution of mankind is built on the desire to survive. Therefore suicide is anathema to that.
However, 'the powerful' in the form of the Church certainly used it's power to coerce people from committing suicide. At one time the Church would have a suicide victim tied on a rope & dragged through the streets of the city as an example.
Of course at the same time it was quite alright for the Church to burn someone else at the stake!
What crazy mixed up values!
Fear is a huge aspect of anything we try to control or rule out though. I do agree, it goes against our survival instinct. That alone should tell us the severity and danger of depression. It is powerful enough to over ride that instinct for survival. However, having rules saying suicide is illegal, or a sin is not going to change anything. Most people cannot understand that level of hopelessness until they reach it. And, by then it's likely to late because they will kill themselves.
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Post by snow on Aug 14, 2014 11:30:23 GMT -5
I really don't see any difference in whether one is religious or not when it comes to suicide. Once you are in a state that is such a deep depression, nothing else would be as important to you than ending the pain. I agree it should be an option for those in physical pain or a debilitating disease. But that is a different subject really. Depression is not the only cause of suicide. Very often someone who attempts suicide is labeled as depressed when there has been no prior diagnosis. No, that's true. It is not the only cause for suicide. To address the second part of your post, just because someone was never diagnosed as depressed before they committed suicide does not mean they were not depressed. It just means that they never went to a professional about their depression so it was never 'professionally' diagnosed. Which points to the stigma that still surrounds any form of mental illness. They would rather suffer in silence than get labelled with a 'mental illness'. I believe that really needs to change.
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Post by slowtosee on Aug 14, 2014 12:08:08 GMT -5
Intent was no excuse no matter who or what they are. Period. Alvinwh Or maybe just humans...... Sounds like you are excusing them. Those who have little respect for the heartache and pain of losing a loved one are... I would get kicked off the forum if I said exactly what I think of such people.
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Post by rational on Aug 14, 2014 12:12:59 GMT -5
Depression is not the only cause of suicide. Very often someone who attempts suicide is labeled as depressed when there has been no prior diagnosis. No, that's true. It is not the only cause for suicide. To address the second part of your post, just because someone was never diagnosed as depressed before they committed suicide does not mean they were not depressed. It just means that they never went to a professional about their depression so it was never 'professionally' diagnosed. It could also mean that just because they were suicidal does not mean they were depressed.You are assuming that suicide indicates mental illness. And/or that they suffered in silence. Reasons for suicide are myriad.I agree.
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