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Post by xna on Dec 12, 2014 14:33:14 GMT -5
I'm not sure of the cause of death. Either way it's a barbaric story. At least they didn't use a stones to circumize them twice, like we read in other parts. XNA! Wartime is one of the worst times in people's time. They do not treat their enemies like they are of the human race.....this is true of ALL war times! There have betimes when there have been more inhumane atrocities that people within some wars could hardly like but were forced to see it, and some to have to participate in it to some minor degree, i.e. A friend of our family was a prisoner during the Holocaust War horrors. Guess what his torture was! Yes, indeed he had to drive a vehicle full of the Jewish prisoners to those horror chambers, to be tortured and then put to death. He said that most of them, by the time he was there to help put them into the back of his truck, were already nothing much more then skin and bones and naked as plucked bluejays....women, men and children....no respecters of age or sex amongst those horrible soldiers who worked those death camps. This is just one tiny example of what he told us....and what I'm trying to get across to you! I strongly suspect David had his army kill the enemy before they had a chance to get away or revamp their defense. The "act" of taking their foreskin was just a way of "c ounting" the number of soldiers they had killed of their enemy's. Other war lords would often hack a hand off and take it back to count to see how many soldiers were killed, etc. So the foreskins were significant in that Jews believed in circumcision and the Gentile nations did not and this was the Jews way of telling for sure not only how many of the enemy they had killed but how many that were really Gentiles and not some escaped Jews, etc I don't think it is worse then any other war story..... War is bad, but the god of the OT promotes war from beginning to the end. If I were a creator of a divine plan I would leave war out.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 12, 2014 18:11:30 GMT -5
And then there is the river of human blood 5 ft deep, 200 miles long.... Revelation 14: 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. Again, as heaven will retain the souls of saved folks and animals that are innocent, of course....then that means those who have angered the Lord and the FAther beyond salvation will have their lives ended and since blood seems to be the one thing it takes for mankind to live on the earth, we can be sure that that blood which is no longer needed will definitely be harvested somewhere. As God made all things, He certainly isn't going to be wasting the best parts of any of it, now is He? "Innocent" of what? Shedding blood? If so that means my cats won't make it to heaven!
That's not fair!
That is how they evolved, to catch & eat small prey! That is how they survive in the wild!
So for those who think it was God who designed them that way,and now he is going to punish them by not allowing them into heaven: I say a pox on that God!
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Post by placid-void on Dec 12, 2014 19:49:55 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Dec 12, 2014 21:45:05 GMT -5
Does God have a rule that you need a soul to get into heaven? Or do animals just have a free pass no matter what? Is it just humans that have a soul so therefore have a possibility of not making it?
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Post by Lee on Dec 13, 2014 15:51:58 GMT -5
Everything has its price. Blood will always be one form of currency in the economy of life, literal life, or the quality of it. Anyone who intentionally sheds blood for favor with God today is ignorant of JC.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 13, 2014 17:46:59 GMT -5
Seems either you're taking it wrong or I made it wrong...I am not saying there are any animals that would qualify in a negative manner......only mankind can do that and does it all by himself! ~ Sharingtheriches Q1. We read there are animals in heaven. Do you think there are also animals in hell? *Q2. We also read plants were in heaven BEFORE they were on earth. Do you think plants have souls? * Genesis 2:4-5 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew * Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: 2.29 "banyan tree has a soul..." www.vedabase.com/en/bg/2/29I am not certain that there will be more then the 2 beasts that are mentioned in Revalations in hell! I suppose Satan and his angels could have caught some and kept them, I don't know....but I do know that it says that when that life that is a living soul dies then God retains that soul or the breathing soul....He collects them back into His own possession. Now some people have mentioned that with the number of animals throughout the angels, that certainly those breathing animal souls likely were sent back to earth into a new body over and over again. I do not even try to make sense of that for I have NO idea on that either. Alll I know is that the bible says the Lord reclaims the soul or that which make the flesh a "living soul" when that flesh dies. So yes, that would include any kind of "flesh" that uses the process of "breathing" to live, is what has been explained on TMB before. Plants are not breathing souls....they do not use lungs or a respiratory tract that requires the act of breathing. Herbs have long been mentioned in Paradise, but as I read it, the Tree of Life is all the plant life that will be necessary for those in heaven...the "leaves are for the healing of the nations" and the fruits of that Tree of Life will bear a different fruit each month so I suppose the nutritional value is up to par or up to someone's liking! Again, I'm not saying that the Tree of Life has a soul for that isn't mentioned in the bible that way......
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 13, 2014 17:51:29 GMT -5
XNA! Wartime is one of the worst times in people's time. They do not treat their enemies like they are of the human race.....this is true of ALL war times! There have betimes when there have been more inhumane atrocities that people within some wars could hardly like but were forced to see it, and some to have to participate in it to some minor degree, i.e. A friend of our family was a prisoner during the Holocaust War horrors. Guess what his torture was! Yes, indeed he had to drive a vehicle full of the Jewish prisoners to those horror chambers, to be tortured and then put to death. He said that most of them, by the time he was there to help put them into the back of his truck, were already nothing much more then skin and bones and naked as plucked bluejays....women, men and children....no respecters of age or sex amongst those horrible soldiers who worked those death camps. This is just one tiny example of what he told us....and what I'm trying to get across to you! I strongly suspect David had his army kill the enemy before they had a chance to get away or revamp their defense. The "act" of taking their foreskin was just a way of "c ounting" the number of soldiers they had killed of their enemy's. Other war lords would often hack a hand off and take it back to count to see how many soldiers were killed, etc. So the foreskins were significant in that Jews believed in circumcision and the Gentile nations did not and this was the Jews way of telling for sure not only how many of the enemy they had killed but how many that were really Gentiles and not some escaped Jews, etc I don't think it is worse then any other war story..... War is bad, but the god of the OT promotes war from beginning to the end. If I were a creator of a divine plan I would leave war out. Then the solution to the problem would be that you create the human race without being like God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, having the capability to think and choose for themselves! And make foolish decisions and selfish decisions and ignore others to the point of running over other people's rights, etc........this is where war is begun....that and having bigheaded politicians think they're the world's answer to all problems. Yea, If you can figure out all the problems that human nature causes when it is multitudinous then please apply to God to allow you to do the creating of the human race. Reminding Him to remove all humans off the earth before you start......Whoops! There went the new creator!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 13, 2014 17:55:57 GMT -5
Does God have a rule that you need a soul to get into heaven? Or do animals just have a free pass no matter what? Is it just humans that have a soul so therefore have a possibility of not making it? Snow, the bible indicates that all flesh that God gives the "breath of life" and "makes a living soul" has a soul.....so that includes ALL flesh that breathes much like humans do.....this would include all animals that walk on the dry earth and some people say that includes the birds in the air and the fish in the sea....simply because they use a respiratory system that requires air to pass through their lungs or some such apparatus and then mixes with their blood to give them the breath of life or oxygen. This likely would include any flesh that has red blood because red blood requires oxygen for nutrition.......or for living.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 13, 2014 17:59:32 GMT -5
There's a book that a minister that wasn't pope wrote about "Cold Noses At The Pearly Gates". This minister had been asked particularly by younger parishioners if animals went to heaven when they die. He provides many different scriptures within the bible that backs up the theory that yes, animals do go to heaven when they die. Now people are mostly talking about people's "pets"....but again that's being judgmental isn't it? If someones dog goes to heaven when he dies what about the lonely goat out in the wilderness? Surely because he doesn't sin, he would be included in the animals that go to heaven! eh?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 13, 2014 18:04:17 GMT -5
Again, as heaven will retain the souls of saved folks and animals that are innocent, of course....then that means those who have angered the Lord and the FAther beyond salvation will have their lives ended and since blood seems to be the one thing it takes for mankind to live on the earth, we can be sure that that blood which is no longer needed will definitely be harvested somewhere. As God made all things, He certainly isn't going to be wasting the best parts of any of it, now is He? "Innocent" of what? Shedding blood? If so that means my cats won't make it to heaven!
That's not fair!
That is how they evolved, to catch & eat small prey! That is how they survive in the wild!
So for those who think it was God who designed them that way,and now he is going to punish them by not allowing them into heaven: I say a pox on that God!
As I tried to explain to XNA, the "innocent" should have just been for the "human" component, as we all know the animals usually operate only to eat and protect what is theirs....You might be surprised some day to know your cat and some of those mice she/he caught are sitting quite chummy up in heaven, enjoying whatever is there for them to enjoy. They would have a chance to know that inexplicable or exceeding joy as Peter was so wont to call it! Kind of like the burly old lion laying down and the tiny baby lamb coming and curling up against old burly lion to keep warm!
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Post by xna on Dec 13, 2014 20:18:46 GMT -5
Further musings on the heaven / hell / soul subject.
1. When I professed I never heard anyone say that they thought animals had souls. I suspect most 2x2's today do not think animals have souls, but I could be wrong.
2. I find it strange that many churches have a blessing day for pets.
3. I find it interesting that some think people are not just another kind of animal, and that plants do not breathe.
4. The bible says horses are in heaven (must be draft horse based on their works), and beasts in hell.
5. From the stories, I suspect that the serpent from the Garden of Eden would be in hell.
6. I see heaven and hell as magical thinking, along with unicorns and their souls.
7. Many religions see souls in most everything.
8. Due to my Christian indoctrination: I think the concept of a heaven and hell as - normal; animals going to heaven or hell as - weird; and plants going to heaven or hell as - satirical.
9. I wonder in the story of Jesus cursing the fig tree. Did he intend to doom the plant to hell?
10. Do you think those special bible animals like the talking donkey and Jonas fish, did they get to go to heaven for their good works?
11. There is no end to the ideas of heaven and hell, and no lack of opinions on who's going where.
12. It seems strange that in the OT when people died the went to "realm of the dead", and in the NT they went to heaven or hell. To me along with Revelations, this make the NT worse than the OT.
13. I don’t know if anyone’s version of heaven or hell exists, and suspect neither does anyone else.
JMT
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 13, 2014 23:01:09 GMT -5
"Innocent" of what? Shedding blood? If so that means my cats won't make it to heaven!
That's not fair!
That is how they evolved, to catch & eat small prey! That is how they survive in the wild!
So for those who think it was God who designed them that way,and now he is going to punish them by not allowing them into heaven: I say a pox on that God!
As I tried to explain to XNA, the "innocent" should have just been for the "human" component, as we all know the animals usually operate only to eat and protect what is theirs.... You might be surprised some day to know your cat and some of those mice she/he caught are sitting quite chummy up in heaven, enjoying whatever is there for them to enjoy. They would have a chance to know that inexplicable or exceeding joy as Peter was so wont to call it! Kind of like the burly old lion laying down and the tiny baby lamb coming and curling up against old burly lion to keep warm! Y ou are right that I would indeed "be surprised some day to know your cat and some of those mice she/he caught are sitting quite chummy up in heaven" since I don't believe in a heaven or hell!
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rs
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Post by rs on Dec 14, 2014 12:33:35 GMT -5
We were told today at special mtgs that animals don't have souls...
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 14, 2014 12:42:33 GMT -5
"Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in". Mark Twain he also said " go to heaven for the climate. Go to hell for the company.," I doubt he figured there would be dogs in hell. At least not the ones I've owned or owned me. Lol.
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 14, 2014 14:15:25 GMT -5
News today, pope was misquoted. Dogs do not have souls. No dogs in heaven he says. Alvin
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 14, 2014 14:43:29 GMT -5
Further musings on the heaven / hell / soul subject. 1. When I professed I never heard anyone say that they thought animals had souls. I suspect most 2x2's today do not think animals have souls, but I could be wrong. 2. I find it strange that many churches have a blessing day for pets. 3. I find it interesting that some think people are not just another kind of animal, and that plants do not breathe. 4. The bible says horses are in heaven (must be draft horse based on their works), and beasts in hell. 5. From the stories, I suspect that the serpent from the Garden of Eden would be in hell. 6. I see heaven and hell as magical thinking, along with unicorns and their souls. 7. Many religions see souls in most everything. 8. Due to my Christian indoctrination: I think the concept of a heaven and hell as - normal; animals going to heaven or hell as - weird; and plants going to heaven or hell as - satirical. 9. I wonder in the story of Jesus cursing the fig tree. Did he intend to doom the plant to hell? 10. Do you think those special bible animals like the talking donkey and Jonas fish, did they get to go to heaven for their good works? 11. There is no end to the ideas of heaven and hell, and no lack of opinions on who's going where. 12. It seems strange that in the OT when people died the went to "realm of the dead", and in the NT they went to heaven or hell. To me along with Revelations, this make the NT worse than the OT. 13. I don’t know if anyone’s version of heaven or hell exists, and suspect neither does anyone else. JMT First thing....plants to do process their air needs like those who use apparatus like lungs, gills, etc....so no plants are not considered "living souls" for they would not have had to receive the "breath of life" from God at the time of their birth or hatching. The idea that those who are "living souls" returning to God is because He is the one who gave them that breath of life that made them living souls, so when they no longer need that breath of life, wouldn't you think that He who lent it to them would reclaim it....plus if a person or animal never breathes then they are never considered a living soul......I'm sure we could get into a deeper discussion about the embryo that does breath inutero and that may well happen with God's will as well. the heaven of today is being used for those who are to be in the regeneration or as some would prefer to be know, that they are co-heirs with Jesus Christ in eternal salvation. The animals deserve a place in heaven for all that we humans have put up on them throughout the ages....plus they also have a living soul which needs to be reclaimed by He who gave it....... I would advise anyone who doubts that there is a heaven to read the book "Ninety Minutes in Heaven" by Rev. Dan Piper! This man ran through a multitude of negative thoughts and feelings and emotions that nearly killed him when the horrors of a car crash didn't. His anger at being "prayed back out of heaven" to return to the earth to have to live a life of complete hell for a number of months into years was nearly enough to make him lose his religion...but the description he gives of heaven and the things that he remembers hearing, seeing and most of all what he was feeling have been also felt by many others who were doubters of heaven and hell before that........it's easy to come on TMB and read you doubters and atheists' thoughts and opinions about there being NO God, etc and the devil is hanging right there to keep that in your mind during your private prayer and study time.....unless or until you recall these experiences that some of us have shared that are exactly alike in seeing Jesus, hearing and seeing things in heaven and utmost of feeling an inexplicable joy. Peter called it an exceeding joy! I have to tell Peter that doesn't even begin to describe it!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 14, 2014 15:03:17 GMT -5
We were told today at special mtgs that animals don't have souls... Someone needs to read in Gen. then! Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. The margin in my bible says #6 Heb(speaking to there is life) a living soul and states "ch. 2:7" which is the verse preceding this one. Another reference is: Gen 7:22 All who nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. "the breath of life" is noted in the margin again " Heb the breath of the spirit of life.It goes on in Gen 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both bank, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth:..... We see here that plants were not particularly named though arguably people would say they could be part of the "living substance"......though I don't believe that is what was meant as it was speaking about the breath of the spirit of life substances..... If you'll get the book "Cold Noses at The Pearly Gates" there is a whole book of various OT and NT scriptures that help a person understand exactly God's will and purpose for more then just man on earth. The author of that book is: Gary Kurz
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Post by xna on Dec 14, 2014 15:42:00 GMT -5
First thing....plants to do process their air needs like those who use apparatus like lungs, gills, etc....so no plants are not considered "living souls" for they would not have had to receive the "breath of life" from God at the time of their birth or hatching. The idea that those who are "living souls" returning to God is because He is the one who gave them that breath of life that made them living souls, so when they no longer need that breath of life, wouldn't you think that He who lent it to them would reclaim it....plus if a person or animal never breathes then they are never considered a living soul......I'm sure we could get into a deeper discussion about the embryo that does breath inutero and that may well happen with God's will as well. the heaven of today is being used for those who are to be in the regeneration or as some would prefer to be know, that they are co-heirs with Jesus Christ in eternal salvation. The animals deserve a place in heaven for all that we humans have put up on them throughout the ages....plus they also have a living soul which needs to be reclaimed by He who gave it....... I agree plants don't have lungs, but they still breathe. Lets hope plants don't stopped breathing, or we will run out of our needed oxygen. I guess bull frogs and other animals that breathe with their skin are not going to heaven. www.saburchill.com/chapters/chap0022.htmlYes, the idea that ensoulment begins when you take your first breath is very problematic, but then so are the others moments.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 14, 2014 20:59:05 GMT -5
I'm not sure but I'd think any oxygen breathing animal that has red blood would perhaps still be categorized as a "living soul"......but I feel that since plants synthesize their nutrients through their cellular makeup and their chemical makeup and not through red blood nor through lungs or gills or some such apparatus that they wouldn't be considered living souls...they didn't require God to give them the "breath of life"..... Though I strongly suspect that there will likely be most any kind of lovely plants in heaven....IF God is responsible for the beauties we have why wouldn't He enjoy having His own? He likely has all those that are extinct on the earth now, eh?
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Post by xna on Dec 14, 2014 21:48:13 GMT -5
I'm not sure but I'd think any oxygen breathing animal that has red blood would perhaps still be categorized as a "living soul"......but I feel that since plants synthesize their nutrients through their cellular makeup and their chemical makeup and not through red blood nor through lungs or gills or some such apparatus that they wouldn't be considered living souls...they didn't require God to give them the "breath of life"..... Though I strongly suspect that there will likely be most any kind of lovely plants in heaven....IF God is responsible for the beauties we have why wouldn't He enjoy having His own? He likely has all those that are extinct on the earth now, eh? Nature is amazing. Some animals don't even need oxygen to live and some other animals have green blood.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2014 2:03:34 GMT -5
We would come home to a half dead bird fluttering around our lounge and scare the wits out of us. She didn't kill the birds always when she brought them in. Then she bought here boyfriend in even though she was desexed a big feral horrible monster. He would just stroll in through the cat door like he owned the place and eat her food. In one place they were killing the blue tongue lizards . But she never scratched or wagged her tail at us once - she adored us it never crossed her mind to be nasty to us.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 17, 2014 15:58:24 GMT -5
Reminded me of a Boston Terrier female dog we had....she hated cats....she'd kill every one she could find. What was so funny, we'd gotten a couple of large kittens and started them out in the hayloft hoping above hope they'd stay up there until they were big enough she'd play heck killing them, but no, it didn't work. We left one day to make a quick run over to the nursing home where my father-in-law was to see what was going on and when we came back, here came that Boston Terrier dragging one of the kittens. She brought that cat to us and then looked at us as if to say, "I got rid of one of your big pests while you were away. Aren't you proud of me." My husband started to scold her and I told him it was too late, it would do no good other then to make her want to sneak her victims' bodies around! He agreed and of course, every mouse she pulled out of our mouse trap on our back porch and every stubby taled rat she killed and every kitten she killed she brought to show us. Then the final trophy was when she and her full grown son and female Airedale managed to gang up on a feisty squirrel and kill it. The female Boston didn't kill the squirrel but she ended up with the poor thing and made sure we saw that thing for a couple of days. When it started to stink we got it and threw it away! She was so proud of her abilities to catch and kill all our horrible vermin!
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Post by rational on Dec 17, 2014 17:51:53 GMT -5
She was so proud of her abilities to catch and kill all our horrible vermin! I wonder who the mice and squirrels considered "horrible vermin"?
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 17, 2014 18:30:22 GMT -5
We were told today at special mtgs that animals don't have souls... Well, there you have it! From the horse's -eh -"mouth!" Poor horse, of course, doesn't have a soul so he indeed knows what he/she is talking about.
No need for us to further worry about the one!
Now we can re-start to worry again whether or not "God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit," (what ever the holy spirit is) is the TRINITY or NOT!
Now That is absolutely as important to our ability to live & breath as oxygen!
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Post by rational on Dec 17, 2014 20:04:29 GMT -5
Alll I know is that the bible says the Lord reclaims the soul or that which make the flesh a "living soul" when that flesh dies. So yes, that would include any kind of "flesh" that uses the process of "breathing" to live, is what has been explained on TMB before. Plants are not breathing souls....they do not use lungs or a respiratory tract that requires the act of breathing. Herbs have long been mentioned in Paradise, but as I read it, the Tree of Life is all the plant life that will be necessary for those in heaven...the "leaves are for the healing of the nations" and the fruits of that Tree of Life will bear a different fruit each month so I suppose the nutritional value is up to par or up to someone's liking! Again, I'm not saying that the Tree of Life has a soul for that isn't mentioned in the bible that way...... The bible may not be the best source of scientific information. I would hazard a guess that there are more species of animals that satisfy the requirements of respiration without lungs or gills than there are that do. There are many animals that live in that transition zone. So if plants are ruled out because they to not have lungs a lot of animals will get the axe as well. And you have to remember that plants do transpire. And they require oxygen to survive. The discussion is difficult because some of the key terms do not seem to have the same meaning for all participants. Defining "life" would seem to me to be a good place to start. Some will claim that life begins as conception. Others when the first breath is drawn. But aren't the gametes that join to form new individuals alive? And the little ones like the amoeba and the paramecium are ignored because they cannot stand on their own two feet. Even the larger insects. They would seem to have a leg, or legs, up but they are not considered because they do not have lungs. But then they do have tracheae and that should count for something! And what about the daphnia? Will they be in heaven? So many questions.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 17, 2014 20:28:17 GMT -5
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would advise anyone who doubts that there is a heaven to read the book "Ninety Minutes in Heaven" by Rev. Dan Piper! This man ran through a multitude of negative thoughts and feelings and emotions that nearly killed him when the horrors of a car crash didn't. His anger at being "prayed back out of heaven" to return to the earth to have to live a life of complete hell for a number of months into years was nearly enough to make him lose his religion...but the description he gives of heaven and the things that he remembers hearing, seeing and most of all what he was feeling have been also felt by many others who were doubters of heaven and hell before that........it's easy to come on TMB and read you doubters and atheists' thoughts and opinions about there being NO God, etc and the devil is hanging right there to keep that in your mind during your private prayer and study time.....unless or until you recall these experiences that some of us have shared that are exactly alike in seeing Jesus, hearing and seeing things in heaven and utmost of feeling an inexplicable joy. Peter called it an exceeding joy! I have to tell Peter that doesn't even begin to describe it! Read the review of "Ninety Minutes in Heaven" by Dan Piper by Tim Callies, an evangelical Christian himself. www.challies.com/book-reviews/book-review-90-minutes-in-heaven
His review wasn't all that "glowing!"
Here is an except: "The title may be deceptive. One might assume, from the title, that a significant portion of the book is dedicated to describing heaven. The reality is that the author’s time in heaven comprises only 15 pages of this 205-page book. A further seven pages, appended to the end of the book, engage very briefly and unsatisfactorily with the “why questions.” The bulk of the book describes Piper’s accident, rescue and convalescence with some attention to the ministry opportunities that have arisen since his time in heaven. The book is, in reality, a biographical sketch of Don Piper and a lengthy description of the trials he faced as he recovered from devastating bodily injuries. Following the description of heaven, there is little further reflection on paradise. There is little attempt to describe how the author’s life and perspective on Scripture have changed because of his experience. There is little interaction with the Bible. There is little gospel."
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