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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2014 10:49:03 GMT -5
I am looking at establishing what the F&W's beliefs are. The trinity doctrine is one that seems to be unclear for me. Hence the poll. But there are other questions too that I'm not sure about.
1. Does the group believe in transubstantiation? 2. Does the Bread and Wine have to be consecrated? 3. If yes, is anyone (women, group members that are not workers/elders) allowed to consecrate? 4. Is celibacy really required for the workers? Has it always been that way from the formation of the group?
There may be more as I go along. I am trying to establish the beliefs of the F&W, the Waldenses, and the Cathars to try and see if there is any reason to think that those groups might have been just a continuation/stepping stone to what Irvine started in 1897.
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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2014 12:51:32 GMT -5
There are different beliefs on the Trinity...
1) Some teach the Trinitiy is God the Father, Son, and Holy are One not separate individuals. 2) Others teach the Trinity is God the Father, Son, and Holy are ONE in Unity but all three are separate beings.
I believe the friends and workers teach/believe on #2. So, I vote Yes, #2 on the Trinity. Thanks Nathan. You are the only one professing that I knew for sure what you believed re the Trinity. There is another option that I believe my parents opted for. That is the one where Jesus is a man that became divine but was not part of the Godhead. That is what the 'no' portion of the poll indicates. That Jesus was just a man or part of the Godhead.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2014 12:52:21 GMT -5
I am looking at establishing what the F&W's beliefs are. The trinity doctrine is one that seems to be unclear for me. Hence the poll. But there are other questions too that I'm not sure about. 1. Does the group believe in transubstantiation? 2. Does the Bread and Wine have to be consecrated? 3. If yes, is anyone (women, group members that are not workers/elders) allowed to consecrate? 4. Is celibacy really required for the workers? Has it always been that way from the formation of the group? There may be more as I go along. I am trying to establish the beliefs of the F&W, the Waldenses, and the Cathars to try and see if there is any reason to think that those groups might have been just a continuation/stepping stone to what Irvine started in 1897. i can only speak about the pacific northwest... so to my knowledge... yes the trinity is okay... 1. no 2. not to my knowledge... i dont fully know what goes on in an elders home sunday morning before we arrive 3. not applicable 4. although there have been married worker couples yes celibacy is a requirement if single...1 co 7:7-8
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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2014 12:55:55 GMT -5
I am looking at establishing what the F&W's beliefs are. The trinity doctrine is one that seems to be unclear for me. Hence the poll. But there are other questions too that I'm not sure about. 1. Does the group believe in transubstantiation? 2. Does the Bread and Wine have to be consecrated? 3. If yes, is anyone (women, group members that are not workers/elders) allowed to consecrate? 4. Is celibacy really required for the workers? Has it always been that way from the formation of the group? There may be more as I go along. I am trying to establish the beliefs of the F&W, the Waldenses, and the Cathars to try and see if there is any reason to think that those groups might have been just a continuation/stepping stone to what Irvine started in 1897. i can only speak about the pacific northwest... so to my knowledge... yes the trinity is okay... 1. no 2. not to my knowledge... i dont fully know what goes on in an elders home sunday morning before we arrive 3. not applicable 4. although there have been married worker couples yes celibacy is a requirement if single...1 co 7:7-8 Thanks for your answers Wally. I don't remember that there was any ritual when my father got the emblems ready in the morning, but I do know there was a way of disposing of them in a certain way. That's why I am asking about the consecration portion of the emblems.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2014 13:01:03 GMT -5
i can only speak about the pacific northwest... so to my knowledge... yes the trinity is okay... 1. no 2. not to my knowledge... i dont fully know what goes on in an elders home sunday morning before we arrive 3. not applicable 4. although there have been married worker couples yes celibacy is a requirement if single...1 co 7:7-8 Thanks for your answers Wally. I don't remember that there was any ritual when my father got the emblems ready in the morning, but I do know there was a way of disposing of them in a certain way. That's why I am asking about the consecration portion of the emblems. i might note that on #4 paul spoke without any commandment on the matter but implied that if unmarried we should remain single and celibate and that seems to be the theme since then...
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Post by faune on Aug 7, 2014 13:20:46 GMT -5
Although I'm not professing anymore, I would like to inject this simple description of the Trinity that might make better sense to some?
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 7, 2014 13:30:16 GMT -5
There is some evidence in early sermons that the early workers believed in concept of "the trinity--these three are one" (entity). It's possible the early workers didnt start out in the beginning not believing the trinity concept. There is one explicitly trinitarian doxology, Hymn. 239, 4th verse of "Cease Not to Praise God for All He Has Done" words by James Fawcett in Hymns Old & New Edition 1951, which was not included in the 1987 edition: Cease not to worship the Father and Son The Holy Spirit and these Three are One There's none in heaven or earth to compare All praise be given to God everywhere.
The trinity concept doesnt seem to have been handed down to workers by the early workers, as can be seen by some of the Worker Quotes on TLT:Jesus means Savior. Jesus manifested Christ and it was Christ in Jesus that made Jesus Savior. Jesus was a mortal body for the forever Christ. Jesus became obedient so He could manifest Christ. [Turlock CA Special Meeting 1982] REF #254 Jesus is united with God but is not God. I don't see that Jesus is God in the scripture. [Post Falls ID 1985] REF #197 Dan Hilton The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. It is a Catholic doctrine that wasn't even mentioned by the early Christians. It wasn't heard of until the second century. [Washington 1985] REF #393 Fred Allen In the world there is the ARGUMENT of the Trinity. The Catholics believe in one person. But Jesus said "That they may be one as we are one." This was a number of people with one heart, mind and spirit to do one thing. There is one mind and heart of Father and Son and Spirit. It is important to have unity of heart and mind and spirit to do the will of God as Jesus to do the Father's will. [Post Falls ID Conv 1989] REF #198 Willis Propp God, Jesus and Spirit are one in that they are united but not one in single personality. [Devon MT 1977] REF #130 Tharold Sylvester Different churches have different ideas of what the word Trinity means. Be sure to ask them what they mean by the word Trinity. [Washington] REF #345 Dale Bors It depends who we are talking to whether we believe in the Trinity or not. [Sacramento CA 1979] REF #211 Dan Hilton Beware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity. [Manhattan MT Conv 1996] REF 160 Sydney Holt The Trinity is one in purpose, but not in essence. [1980] REF #376 John Porterfield Jesus was "the express image" of God. Sometimes we hear this expression. There might be a little girl in the home, and she looks like her mother. We think of her as being "the express image" of her mother. Or a little boy--he looks like his father. We think of him as being "the express image" of his father. But we wouldn't make the mistake to think that little girl WAS her mother. No. And we wouldn't make the mistake that little boy WAS his father. No--they are two separate individuals. But Christ was "the express image" of God. He wasn't God, and He didn't claim to be. He was in this sense the same as you and I: the Scripture tells us that "Ye are gods". There's some thing about us that is that way. The fact that we live forever, whether it's in a saved eternity or a lost eternity...it will go on forever. But nevertheless, we recognize that God is the one that is the Father. He's our Father." [Funeral of Nelson Printz Bakersfield, CA 7/21/93] REF #342
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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2014 13:33:15 GMT -5
Although I'm not professing anymore, I would like to inject this simple description of the Trinity that might make better sense to some?
Thanks faune. Out of curiosity, when you were professing did you believe Jesus was a Man or a God?
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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2014 13:38:42 GMT -5
Thanks Cherie, that was helpful. It really does sound like it depends on who you talk to. I think some believe in the Trinity, but with the son, father and holy spirit being all separate entities instead of one unit, which I believe is what the Catholic doctrine teaches also?
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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2014 14:31:12 GMT -5
So, Nathan, from the above posts, it sounds as though Irvine believed in the Triune God, so the 2x2's changed somewhere along the line? At least some of them? I find that interesting because when I was young and going to meetings I always understood from the preaching that Jesus was like a human brother to us, who was perfect, but only became completely divine when he died and rose again. My father knew Willie Jamieson so I wonder how he never believed the concept of the Trinity if that is what Willie preached? I really hope lots of people who are currently professing will vote because it is certainly unclear what the 'party line' is on this issue.
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Post by faune on Aug 7, 2014 15:22:14 GMT -5
Snow ~ I did not believe while professing that Jesus was God in the flesh, but accepted the worker's description of Jesus as our Elder Brother and example to follow. So, to answer your question accurately, I believe I visualized Jesus as a mere man who gained divinity through his perfect obedience to the Father's will, including the Cross. However, since I was not exposed to basic Christian teaching before the 2x2's due to being un-churched, I accepted the workers' version of the gospel message without question. However, much later I discovered that their focus wasn't on Jesus, but on themselves, as our only source of salvation along with conformity to their rules for membership with all the do's and don'ts and group-think. It wasn't until I left the group and started attending outside churches that I realized how little I knew about the basis Christian teaching centered around Jesus and the Cross and the real gospel message of imputed righteousness through Christ paying the full price of our redemption on the Cross. Needless to say, this was never taught by the workers. Instead an alternative gospel message, centered around accepting their own sacrifice and requirements of conformity to their rules to earn our salvation. However, this came with no guarantees and was based entirely on our own works of righteousness demonstrated by obedience to the workers and acceptance of their lifestyle and directives.
carm.org/religious-movements/oneness-pentecostal/what-real-gospel-message
www.gotquestions.org/true-gospel.html
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Post by snow on Aug 7, 2014 16:19:32 GMT -5
Snow ~ I did not believe while professing that Jesus was God in the flesh, but accepted the worker's description of Jesus as our Elder Brother and example to follow. So, to answer your question accurately, I believe I visualized Jesus as a mere man who gained divinity through his obedience to the Father's will, including the Cross. However, since I was not exposed to basic Christian teaching before the 2x2's due to being un-churched, I accepted the workers' version of the gospel message without question. However, much later I discovered that their focus wasn't on Jesus, but on themselves, as our only source of salvation along with conformity to their rules for membership with all the do's and don'ts and group-think. It wasn't until I left the group and started attending outside churches that I realized how little I knew about the basis Christian teaching centered around Jesus and the Cross and the real gospel message of imputed righteousness through Christ paying the full price of our redemption on the Cross. Needless to say, this was never taught by the workers. Instead an alternative gospel message was preached, centered around accepting their own sacrifice and requirements of conformity to their do's and don'ts to earn our salvation, but with no guarantees attached.
www.gotquestions.org/true-gospel.html That would be more in line with what my professing parents believed and what I was taught growing up. So I guess it's going to be hard to compare early religions with the 2x2 religion when the beginning part of the groups beliefs was in the Trinity and now a majority believe in the other. Well I'll just have to try and present what each one believed with the caveat that things have changed.
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Post by faune on Aug 7, 2014 17:25:14 GMT -5
Snow ~ I did not believe while professing that Jesus was God in the flesh, but accepted the worker's description of Jesus as our Elder Brother and example to follow. So, to answer your question accurately, I believe I visualized Jesus as a mere man who gained divinity through his perfect obedience to the Father's will, including the Cross. However, since I was not exposed to basic Christian teaching before the 2x2's due to being un-churched, I accepted the workers' version of the gospel message without question. However, much later I discovered that their focus wasn't on Jesus, but on themselves, as our only source of salvation along with conformity to their rules for membership with all the do's and don'ts and group-think. It wasn't until I left the group and started attending outside churches that I realized how little I knew about the basis Christian teaching centered around Jesus and the Cross and the real gospel message of imputed righteousness through Christ paying the full price of our redemption on the Cross. Needless to say, this was never taught by the workers. Instead an alternative gospel message, centered around accepting their own sacrifice and requirements of conformity to their rules to earn our salvation. However, this came with no guarantees and was based entirely on our own works of righteousness demonstrated by obedience to the workers and acceptance of their lifestyle and directives.
carm.org/religious-movements/oneness-pentecostal/what-real-gospel-message
www.gotquestions.org/true-gospel.html
That would be more in line with what my professing parents believed and what I was taught growing up. So I guess it's going to be hard to compare early religions with the 2x2 religion when the beginning part of the groups beliefs was in the Trinity and now a majority believe in the other. Well I'll just have to try and present what each one believed with the caveat that things have changed. Snow ~ Honestly, I doubt the workers have changed their stance on the Trinity or their story-line, even though I have been gone from the faith for about 20 years? They were pretty specific about spelling out during my 30 years of professing that the Trinity concept was false teaching that originated with the Catholic Church, as they promoted their 2x2 ministry and meeting in the home as the only way of salvation. Granted, they may have lightened up in area of electronics regarding radios, TV's (kept hidden), and computers with Internet and harping on the youth about their hair and dress, but I doubt they have changed any of their basic message centered around the homeless ministry and meeting in the home to be more grace centered around Jesus Christ? That would be a real shocker to me, if they came around full circle after so many years?
Perhaps outsiders who professed, but naturally were exposed to outside churches might assume the workers believe the same fundamentals regarding Christianity; however, that is not the case! It could be that the workers don't stress their non-Trinitarian beliefs as much as they did in the earlier days, but in my 30 years of professing, I can never recall hearing a worker speak about any gospel message centered around the Cross and "imputed righteousness" through God's grace and how our "sin debt" was paid in full by Jesus at the Cross. If this was ever stressed, why would there be the need for all the extra works to gain the approval of the workers, who hold our fate in their hands by the powers of excommunication, if we don't comply to their requirements? For sure, I never heard the real gospel message spoken in any meeting I ever attended. But, perhaps others can share their own experiences who have left the 2x2's and now attend another church, regarding how they now view Jesus Christ compared to their professing days?
I tend to believe that there are some people professing on this Board who believe more in what the Bible teaches than the workers' message regarding salvation and are not as exclusive in their mindsets. However, when I was professing, to think differently from the group think was a big "no-no" and if you held such an opinion, you kept it to yourself and did not voice it in meeting. This causes me to wonder if there are not a few friends who may sit on the fence regarding a number of the workers' teachings, and choose to believe what they do inwardly, but do not voice it outwardly among the F&W's for fear of repercussions?
P.S. ~ I edited my earlier post to reflect the corrections I made around the times you quoted me.
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Post by Mary on Aug 7, 2014 22:09:34 GMT -5
There has been a poll on this, this year.
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Post by faune on Aug 7, 2014 23:12:43 GMT -5
There is some evidence in early sermons that the early workers believed in concept of "the trinity--these three are one" (entity). It's possible the early workers didnt start out in the beginning not believing the trinity concept. There is one explicitly trinitarian doxology, Hymn. 239, 4th verse of "Cease Not to Praise God for All He Has Done" words by James Fawcett in Hymns Old & New Edition 1951, which was not included in the 1987 edition: Cease not to worship the Father and Son The Holy Spirit and these Three are One There's none in heaven or earth to compare All praise be given to God everywhere.
The trinity concept doesnt seem to have been handed down to workers by the early workers, as can be seen by some of the Worker Quotes on TLT:Jesus means Savior. Jesus manifested Christ and it was Christ in Jesus that made Jesus Savior. Jesus was a mortal body for the forever Christ. Jesus became obedient so He could manifest Christ. [Turlock CA Special Meeting 1982] REF #254 Jesus is united with God but is not God. I don't see that Jesus is God in the scripture. [Post Falls ID 1985] REF #197 Dan Hilton The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. It is a Catholic doctrine that wasn't even mentioned by the early Christians. It wasn't heard of until the second century. [Washington 1985] REF #393 Fred Allen In the world there is the ARGUMENT of the Trinity. The Catholics believe in one person. But Jesus said "That they may be one as we are one." This was a number of people with one heart, mind and spirit to do one thing. There is one mind and heart of Father and Son and Spirit. It is important to have unity of heart and mind and spirit to do the will of God as Jesus to do the Father's will. [Post Falls ID Conv 1989] REF #198 Willis Propp God, Jesus and Spirit are one in that they are united but not one in single personality. [Devon MT 1977] REF #130 Tharold Sylvester Different churches have different ideas of what the word Trinity means. Be sure to ask them what they mean by the word Trinity. [Washington] REF #345 Dale Bors It depends who we are talking to whether we believe in the Trinity or not. [Sacramento CA 1979] REF #211 Dan Hilton Beware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity. [Manhattan MT Conv 1996] REF 160 Sydney Holt The Trinity is one in purpose, but not in essence. [1980] REF #376 John Porterfield Jesus was "the express image" of God. Sometimes we hear this expression. There might be a little girl in the home, and she looks like her mother. We think of her as being "the express image" of her mother. Or a little boy--he looks like his father. We think of him as being "the express image" of his father. But we wouldn't make the mistake to think that little girl WAS her mother. No. And we wouldn't make the mistake that little boy WAS his father. No--they are two separate individuals. But Christ was "the express image" of God. He wasn't God, and He didn't claim to be. He was in this sense the same as you and I: the Scripture tells us that "Ye are gods". There's some thing about us that is that way. The fact that we live forever, whether it's in a saved eternity or a lost eternity...it will go on forever. But nevertheless, we recognize that God is the one that is the Father. He's our Father." [Funeral of Nelson Printz Bakersfield, CA 7/21/93] REF #342 Cherie ~ I have often wondered if the dropping of the Trinity doctrine occurred after William Irvine and Edward Cooney were ex-communicated? It seems that after Edward Cooney got the same boot from the fellowship, things changed within the faith and the remaining workers became more exclusive and the Living Witness Doctrine was adopted as a major part of the worker's message? However, it does seem apparent that some of these early workers did believe in the Trinity? Do you have any idea as to when this non-Trinitarian belief may have originated within the 2x2's and who may have promoted this change?
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Post by snow on Aug 8, 2014 11:17:56 GMT -5
Yes, faune, who knows when it changed. But it definitely did during my parents time frame anyway and they professed in the 1920's.
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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 8, 2014 16:02:28 GMT -5
I never even heard anything about a "Trinity" as I was growing up.
I doubt my parents ever did either.
It simply wasn't mentioned. My father had professed in the twenties & had been in the work.
My mother's family had professed from probably the 1910's.
I never heard of the concept of a "Trinity"
I doubt even if they had heard about such a concept, they probably wouldn't have thought it important.
I would have fully agreed with them on that! To see people put to death, wars fought over something so superficial, so absolutely ridiculous, so time wasting, that it right up there with "how many angels can dance on the heard of a pin!"
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Post by snow on Aug 8, 2014 16:44:27 GMT -5
So to sum this up, The 2x2's started out believing in the Trinity, but very soon within 20 years, they left that belief behind? If someone who professed in 1910 didn't know about it, it was already not preached. However, it seems that for about 80-90 years it wasn't taught. I conclude that because my parents that professed in the 20's and lived until 2003 and 2006, hadn't heard about it and believed Jesus was like a big brother, perfect, but human. Now it seems there are a few that are starting to revert back to the belief in the Trinity likely because more of what they have read or heard from other churches?? Those who do not read on line or have much to do with other religions, wouldn't be as likely to believe in the Trinity? Does that sound accurate?
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Post by snow on Aug 8, 2014 17:23:28 GMT -5
Looks like the poll is at a tie. Interesting.
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Post by breakingfree on Aug 9, 2014 15:33:02 GMT -5
I wonder if the "dust up" with Truitt Oyler helped solidify an anti trinitarian opinion with the workers. Nathan insists Mark Huddle believes and preaches the trinity doctrine but very recently Mark told me in person it's a dangerous doctrine. Also, recently Wayne Bechtol stated, "Anyone who believe Jesus is God is from the devil."
There may be some inside the 2x2's, either worker or friend, who believe in the trinity but they are quiet about it because it didn't really matter to them either way. Unlike Christianity, it isn't an essential doctrine. THE essential doctrines for 2x2's aren't about Jesus. They are about a method for ministry and the buildings they use on Sunday morning.
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Post by breakingfree on Aug 9, 2014 15:34:43 GMT -5
Looks like the poll is at a tie. Interesting. I would participate, but I use my phone to access TMB and for some reason it doesn't load the poll.
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2014 16:23:07 GMT -5
Looks like the poll is at a tie. Interesting. The poll numbers are too small to be meaningful. Also, TMB participants are not representative of fellowship membership.
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Post by snow on Aug 9, 2014 16:37:16 GMT -5
Looks like the poll is at a tie. Interesting. The poll numbers are too small to be meaningful. Also, TMB participants are not representative of fellowship membership. Yes, there weren't many responses. I was surprised it was tied though. When I was part of the group I had never heard of the Trinity. You are in the midst of all those professing, do you think very many believe in the Trinity? Have you ever heard it preached?
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Post by fixit on Aug 9, 2014 16:42:08 GMT -5
The poll numbers are too small to be meaningful. Also, TMB participants are not representative of fellowship membership. Yes, there weren't many responses. I was surprised it was tied though. When I was part of the group I had never heard of the Trinity. You are in the midst of all those professing, do you think very many believe in the Trinity? Have you ever heard it preached? I think most of the friends would hardly know what Trinitarian dogma is. I haven't heard the Trinity preached, but neither have I heard Transubstantiation preached.
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Post by snow on Aug 9, 2014 16:46:28 GMT -5
Yes, there weren't many responses. I was surprised it was tied though. When I was part of the group I had never heard of the Trinity. You are in the midst of all those professing, do you think very many believe in the Trinity? Have you ever heard it preached? I think most of the friends would hardly know what Trinitarian dogma is. I haven't heard the Trinity preached, but neither have I heard Transubstantiation preached. Well I think that Transubstantiation is mostly a Catholic teaching. There may be other groups that take it on, but I don't think there are many. I will go with 'the Truth does not teach the Trinity doctrine' when I do my comparison of the Waldenses and Cathars with the Truth. So far they don't look like they share too many of the same beliefs.
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Post by breakingfree on Aug 10, 2014 1:47:45 GMT -5
I wonder if the "dust up" with Truitt Oyler helped solidify an anti trinitarian opinion with the workers. Nathan insists Mark Huddle believes and preaches the trinity doctrine but very recently Mark told me in person it's a dangerous doctrine. Also, recently Wayne Bechtol stated, "Anyone who believe Jesus is God is from the devil." There may be some inside the 2x2's, either worker or friend, who believe in the trinity but they are quiet about it because it didn't really matter to them either way. Unlike Christianity, it isn't an essential doctrine. THE essential doctrines for 2x2's aren't about Jesus. They are about a method for ministry and the buildings they use on Sunday morning. ~~ Back in 1980 at an interview with a reporter... Mark Huddle said "Jesus is both God and Man."Like I have written Many times in the past.... MOST people today including the workers and the friends believe the Word God refers ONLY to God the Father! This is where people make a terrible mistake for NOT understanding, the word God is Singular/EL the Father, the Son or the Holy Spirit AND Plural/Elohim= God the Father, Jesus/God and the Holy Spirit God. The word God EL and Elohim refer to Father and the Son/Christ. 1) Jesus said in 95 A.D. Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 11:16-17 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and Worshiped God, saying: “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was,because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. Rev. 21:6,7 He/Christ that sat on the throne said unto me, "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be MY Son.~~ While Christ/Jesus lived in a man body He showed MANY proof he was God/the Son: Jesus forgave sinners sins! Only God can forgive sins. He healed the blind, people with lepers, sicknesses, diseases, and raised the dead to show He is God/the Son. 2) John the apostle wrote in the gospel of John 5:17-18 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 10:25-33 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” John the apostle wrote it so clearly in John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God. He was in the World, and the World was MADE by Him, and the world knew him NOT. And the Word was made flesh and dwell among us. The Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God. 3) Paul wrote in I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the Flesh!, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, PREACHED to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory. 4) The apostle Thomas said to Jesus after the resurrection, "My Lord and My God" in John 20:24-29. Jesus did NOT say don't call me Lord and God but accepted the title which Thomas called Him. 5) Mary the mother of Jesus said about the unborn Son in Luke 1:46-47 “My soul magnifies the Lord, And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior."Mark said that in 1980. 34 years ago. So what? HE HAS SINCE CHANGED HIS OPINION ON JESUS. Ask him yourself the next time you see him! I did!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 2:32:26 GMT -5
People talk about the "Trinity doctrine" without actually specifying what it is.
The doctrine of the Trinity is this -
"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons; nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. "But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, so is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. "The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. "And yet there are not three eternals, but one eternal. Also there are not three incomprehensibles, not three uncreated: but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. "So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. "So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods: but one God. "So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords but one Lord. "For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord; so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords. "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone: not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. "So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons: one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. "And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. "HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
No-one in scripture wrote or spoke like this.
This is from the same people who gave us the Crusades, Indulgences, Transubstantiation and let's not forget that greatest murder and terror - the Inquisition.
It is simply adding to the bible. This stuff has the same weight, if not more, than the scripture itself.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 10, 2014 11:12:45 GMT -5
Mark said that in 1980. 34 years ago. So what? HE HAS SINCE CHANGED HIS OPINION ON JESUS. Ask him yourself the next time you see him! I did! ~~~ Mark H. said that he believed Jesus is Both God and Man in 1980. Many people believe the Divinity of Christ and doctrine of the Trinity is a totally different subject, I think Mark is in this category. There are MANY theories, belief, and false understanding/teaching on the Trinity doctrine out there. You must ask them specific questions to make sure they KNOW and UNDERSTAND which Trinity version they believe in..... Read Bert's post on the Trinity then you understand.
Dan Hilton was a senior worker, a well respected Bible student in Washington State and California, USA. He was on Calf. and Washington State staff for many years... This is what Dan Hilton preached/taught for many years when I was in living in Washington State in 1980s. The workers on Calf. and Washington staff just passed on what they heard from the Senior workers had taught them through the years without doing a serious study themselves...
"Nathan insists Mark Huddle believes and preaches the trinity doctrine but very recently Mark told me in person it's a dangerous doctrine. Also, recently Wayne Bechtol stated, "Anyone who believe Jesus is God is from the devil."
Dan Hilton The word Trinity is not found in the Bible. It is a Catholic doctrine that wasn't even mentioned by the early Christians. It wasn't heard of until the second century. [Washington 1985]
Dan Hilton Beware of the devilish doctrine of the Trinity. [Manhattan MT Conv 1996]
~~ We must check these things out for ourselves like Bereans in Acts they examined the preaching/teaching of Paul to see whether it was in line with God's truth. Don't take the workers teachings as the gospel truth without examining, check these things out for ourselves.
[/quote] There is a strong symptom of complacency within the 2x2 fellowship. It is caused by the people who sit and listen to the workers and take what they say for law and gospel. They don't even bother to check their bibles to see if they would agree of the worker's interpretation, they just assume that they workers will not lead them wrong that the workers are in the position of Jesus and would never do wrong or harm to anyone, anything. I'd have to say that the workers would likely never purposefully do harm or wrong to anyone....however they are human just like me are and tend to sometimes loose their connection with the Holy Spirit in leading them in their understanding of the bible. As to putting the Trinity as Catholic Doctrine is really wrong....it is also Protestant Doctrine, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist, etc I've asked many different church affiliated folks what they believe about Jesus Christ.....and most of them immediately know what I'm meaning when I say "Jesus Christ", not just Jesus! They will begin to speak about how Jesus Christ is the son of God or God the son and that he had walked the earth in the OT and was the God most times spoken of in the OT.......and they will say that God the Father never left His throne on High and traversed the earth after mankind and animals etc. were created upon the face of the earth. He left all of that travelling up to His only begotten Son. Also as I've said many times now but feel it may be helpful to repeat it....In Psalms it says very definitely that "man" can NOT redeem his brother. So if we are holding Jesus to nothing more then a perfect man, then he cannot "redeem" any of us according to the Psalmist. Psalm 49 6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches; 7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:So it only makes sense that the creator of all things would be the one who would "redeem" that which he created. For only he would know what and how that would come about. I think this is what preachers mean when they speak about the plan of salvation from before the world became...or at least some of them do mean that! It was a foolproof plan by the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit in order that mankind could always live with God as God intended mankind to do so. And those who want to live with God of course are drawn by the Father to the Son and the Son's sacrifices redeems them, justifying them and sanctifying them...etc Now some are going to say how cruel that seems....No it isn't cruel when you look at it the right way and that is the "resurrection" all within that category will be pure and whole and there will be no human bad traits to get one another into trouble for that part of mankind is over for them! And now they've been redeemed by the firstborn of the resurrection and they will reign with him in his millienial reign! No more human troubles...no more taxation whether with or without representation, no more having to worry about this or that etc.....eternal glory will be with those of the resurrection or the regeneration of the new heaven and new earth! And as I've read and learned more about the triune God, I am believing that that is a major thing that we must have in order to understand or have a very personal intimate relationship with Jesus Christ our Lord. That feeling has only been growing on me for a short while....at first I thought of it as just having a little better understanding of the character Jesus Christ, etc.....but it becomes very personal as it has wound throughout my mind and heart....and as we've all heard about laying treasure up in heaven where moth nor thief can enter or steal.....well for me that means as Jesus Christ has become more clear to me...that "he" is my treasure in heaven...if it were not for him, I wouldn't be laying treasure in heaven anyway...I'd be laying them at the feet of the devil....JMO
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