|
Post by snow on Jul 31, 2014 15:34:51 GMT -5
Why does it seem you are so down on Muslims? Why should Palestine have to suffer so much? Because they are Muslim? Israel should have more power than Muslims? Isn't this a double standard? because of thier record on a number of things...like beheadings/killings for not believing in allah, amputations for crimes,suicide bombers including children,their record on basic rights for women(which is deplorable) to name a few Ok, I guess those are all good enough reasons to just let the Palestinians go through hell in their prison.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jul 31, 2014 15:57:24 GMT -5
because of thier record on a number of things...like beheadings/killings for not believing in allah, amputations for crimes,suicide bombers including children,their record on basic rights for women(which is deplorable) to name a few Ok, I guess those are all good enough reasons to just let the Palestinians go through hell in their prison. I would like to see the 'prison' opened up but that can only happen AFTER Gaza is demilitarized and governed by an administration that is not vowing to destroy Israel. I wish not one life was lost in this conflict, but its worth keeping in mind that the Gaza death toll will likely remain under one per thousand which is a pretty good record for urban warfare. You could compare that with the neighboring governments of Syria and Iraq who use barrel bombs to subjugate their own civilian population. The son of Hamas's founder is applauding Israel's efforts to deliver his people from the brutal Hamas regime:
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jul 31, 2014 16:04:42 GMT -5
Why does it seem you are so down on Muslims? Why should Palestine have to suffer so much? Because they are Muslim? Israel should have more power than Muslims? Isn't this a double standard? I'm only seeing two scenarios here: 1. Israel continues to do what is necessary to defend its right to exist as a Jewish majority state or 2. Every Jew in Palestine leaves. Can you envisage something different to this?
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Jul 31, 2014 16:08:48 GMT -5
because of thier record on a number of things...like beheadings/killings for not believing in allah, amputations for crimes,suicide bombers including children,their record on basic rights for women(which is deplorable) to name a few Ok, I guess those are all good enough reasons to just let the Palestinians go through hell in their prison. They are actually dying martyrs and going to Paradise, not hell. Don't you know they get the greatest honour in this life and the next to kill a Jew? Most Muslims do not accept Israel as a country. They believe that historical Israel is not in the place where they are now but Israel is some where else. They claim Arabs have always been in what we now call Israel and not the Jews. It is not just Muslims who live in Palestinian territories but Christians too. And it is not just Jews who live in Israel either but a large number of Muslims and Arabs. Now my question is do Muslims who live in Israel itself (not the Palestinian territories) attack Jews (apart from the few terrorist attacks or why do they not? I have not read up on it so maybe someone can point me to it or give their understanding of it.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jul 31, 2014 17:09:01 GMT -5
Now my question is do Muslims who live in Israel itself (not the Palestinian territories) attack Jews (apart from the few terrorist attacks or why do they not? I have not read up on it so maybe someone can point me to it or give their understanding of it. Muslims in Israel have Israeli citizenship and are governed by Israeli law. They are better off than fellow Muslims in neighboring Egypt and Syria so there's probably not much motivation to trash the country they're living in. Could they be trusted to treat the Jews as well as the Jews have treated Muslims, if the Muslims were a majority? Who knows? Frankly I would be afraid of living in a Muslim majority anywhere.
|
|
|
Post by dmmichgood on Jul 31, 2014 17:36:00 GMT -5
That's what I told you -- they recognize Israel as a state. And Israel requiring them to recognize them as a "Jewish" state is not only petty, it's ridiculous. Israel is a secular state where Muslims have full and equal civil rights. What would it matter to anyone in Israel what kind of state anyone else thought it was. Sounds like some wacky Christians I know who continually remind you that they are not "neighbors", they are "Christian neighbors". Secular governments aren't supposed to play those kinds of games. Bob ~ Religious beliefs seem to always muddy the waters, don't they? It's been the case since the beginning of Christianity and about every other world religion known today. faune, Yep, You're right!
Religious beliefs divide, not unite!
That is why I'm agin 'em.
I think we'd better off without 'em!
DMG
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jul 31, 2014 17:44:02 GMT -5
Why does it seem you are so down on Muslims? Why should Palestine have to suffer so much? Because they are Muslim? Israel should have more power than Muslims? Isn't this a double standard? I'm only seeing two scenarios here: 1. Israel continues to do what is necessary to defend its right to exist as a Jewish majority state or 2. Every Jew in Palestine leaves. Can you envisage something different to this? At this point fixit, I don't know what to envisage to be honest. Like you I wish no one had to die from this mess. I don't know how that will happen though. I do think there needs to be some compromise on Israel's part, but I don't see them doing that. The West Bank is an issue because Israel is building settlements where they shouldn't be. When that happens how can there be any negotiations in good faith done? It seems like they keep doing these things and it resembles a poke just to rile and then they get upset when they retaliate. That is a game kids play. One antagonizes the other until they get hit then they go crying to the parents because they got hit. I don't see much difference in this situation really.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jul 31, 2014 18:03:06 GMT -5
Thought this was an interesting article. readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/25070-why-did-bernie-sanders-get-gaza-so-wrongFixit, why should Israel be a Jewish state? No other country has those stipulations? Why Israel? Don't they have any say in immigration? All countries are likely faced with that same issue. Should we all claim a certain religion be recognized in all the other countries? That's pretty much what is being said when Jews need a Jewish state because Muslims breed faster and they are concerned with Sharia law. Compare that article with the Israeli statistics for rocket fire and ceasefire violations: mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/terrorism/pages/palestinian_ceasefire_violations_since_end_operation_cast_lead.aspxIn most if not all Muslim-majority countries the Muslim religion is enshrined in their constitution and none of them would allow immigrants from other religions to outnumber them. Don't forget that many of the Jews living in Israel were thrown out of Muslim countries and fled leaving everything behind. Actually no -- most of the Jews living in Israel fled Christian countries in fear of their lives.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jul 31, 2014 18:09:20 GMT -5
Now my question is do Muslims who live in Israel itself (not the Palestinian territories) attack Jews (apart from the few terrorist attacks or why do they not? I have not read up on it so maybe someone can point me to it or give their understanding of it. Muslims in Israel have Israeli citizenship and are governed by Israeli law. They are better off than fellow Muslims in neighboring Egypt and Syria so there's probably not much motivation to trash the country they're living in. Could they be trusted to treat the Jews as well as the Jews have treated Muslims, if the Muslims were a majority? Who knows? Frankly I would be afraid of living in a Muslim majority anywhere. You know that everything you "think" just tells people that you don't think Muslims are as worthy as others. You can't make all the arguments you have if you actually think Muslims are worthy.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jul 31, 2014 18:11:56 GMT -5
That's what I told you -- they recognize Israel as a state. And Israel requiring them to recognize them as a "Jewish" state is not only petty, it's ridiculous. Israel is a secular state where Muslims have full and equal civil rights. What would it matter to anyone in Israel what kind of state anyone else thought it was. Sounds like some wacky Christians I know who continually remind you that they are not "neighbors", they are "Christian neighbors". Secular governments aren't supposed to play those kinds of games. Bob ~ Religious beliefs seem to always muddy the waters, don't they? It's been the case since the beginning of Christianity and about every other world religion known today. And lesser peoples always breed more plentifully than responsible people.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jul 31, 2014 18:13:52 GMT -5
Here's an extract from The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel May 14, 1948...
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jul 31, 2014 18:21:20 GMT -5
Muslims in Israel have Israeli citizenship and are governed by Israeli law. They are better off than fellow Muslims in neighboring Egypt and Syria so there's probably not much motivation to trash the country they're living in. Could they be trusted to treat the Jews as well as the Jews have treated Muslims, if the Muslims were a majority? Who knows? Frankly I would be afraid of living in a Muslim majority anywhere. You know that everything you "think" just tells people that you don't think Muslims are as worthy as others. You can't make all the arguments you have if you actually think Muslims are worthy. What you "think" that I "think" might be quite inaccurate. I could live happily next door to a peace-loving Muslim and treat him as an equal. However, I can't help noticing the track record of Muslim government during my lifetime.
|
|
|
Post by Mary on Jul 31, 2014 18:34:49 GMT -5
What about the track record of Jordan? So far it seems quite good and respected by the west - I think.
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Jul 31, 2014 18:41:37 GMT -5
Why does it seem you are so down on Muslims? Why should Palestine have to suffer so much? Because they are Muslim? Israel should have more power than Muslims? Isn't this a double standard? because of thier record on a number of things...like beheadings/killings for not believing in allah, amputations for crimes,suicide bombers including children,their record on basic rights for women(which is deplorable) to name a few So, in other words, pretty much following the teachings of the old testament.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 18:51:41 GMT -5
What about the track record of Jordan? So far it seems quite good and respected by the west - I think. since the 67' war jordan has been rather quiet for some reason...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 18:56:15 GMT -5
because of thier record on a number of things...like beheadings/killings for not believing in allah, amputations for crimes,suicide bombers including children,their record on basic rights for women(which is deplorable) to name a few So, in other words, pretty much following the teachings of the old testament. yes they are pretty much stuck in an old testament way of doing things by being judge jury and executioner, they would never admit to that though...
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jul 31, 2014 18:58:07 GMT -5
What about the track record of Jordan? So far it seems quite good and respected by the west - I think. Jordan is one of the better governed Islamic countries but it's not a democracy and there are some human rights concerns: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Jordan
|
|
|
Post by Gene on Jul 31, 2014 19:00:51 GMT -5
So, in other words, pretty much following the teachings of the old testament. yes they are pretty much stuck in an old testament way of doing things by being judge jury and executioner, they would never admit to that though... It's unfortunate they haven't gotten the message that God changed his mind on how to handle these matters.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jul 31, 2014 21:50:55 GMT -5
What about the track record of Jordan? So far it seems quite good and respected by the west - I think. Exactly. Unfortunately, as right-wing Americans have articulated, peace-loving Muslims are "inconsequential" -- we are more interested in the terrorists. In the same paragraph: "Peace loving Jews were inconsequential during World War II."
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jul 31, 2014 21:55:25 GMT -5
What about the track record of Jordan? So far it seems quite good and respected by the west - I think. since the 67' war jordan has been rather quiet for some reason... You make it sound like Muslim countries are supposed to always be at war. Yes, there is a reason -- Israel is happy with the West Bank.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jul 31, 2014 22:03:42 GMT -5
You know that everything you "think" just tells people that you don't think Muslims are as worthy as others. You can't make all the arguments you have if you actually think Muslims are worthy. What you "think" that I "think" might be quite inaccurate. I could live happily next door to a peace-loving Muslim and treat him as an equal. However, I can't help noticing the track record of Muslim government during my lifetime. What you seem to be noticing about Muslims and Muslim governments is that they are one and the same thing. You're confusing Muslims with Islamic governments just like you were confusing Palestinians with Hamas. I think you could also live happily next door to a terrorist Muslim because you would undoubtedly believe he was peace-loving. All people who go to war are peace-loving at home -- yet they go bombing strangers on the other side of the world, usually because someone else convinced them they had a duty to perform.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jul 31, 2014 22:07:22 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jul 31, 2014 22:42:08 GMT -5
Bob, I know Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinians very well. No one does, which is a big part of the problem. Abbas has a 1000 strong Presidential Guard which gives some indication of how insecure he feels as a representative of the Palestinians. He hasn't held an election in a long time. When someone comes forward with a mandate from the Palestinians to negotiate on their behalf, and is willing to recognize Israel as a Jewish-majority state, then life will become a whole lot better for the Palestinian people. The following article discusses a way forward for a demilitarized Gaza: www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-gaza-disarm-20140801-story.html#page=1
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jul 31, 2014 22:46:21 GMT -5
What you seem to be noticing about Muslims and Muslim governments is that they are one and the same thing. You're confusing Muslims with Islamic governments If you're talking about the separation of church and state in the Islamic world, "bring it on!"
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Aug 1, 2014 1:09:50 GMT -5
What you seem to be noticing about Muslims and Muslim governments is that they are one and the same thing. You're confusing Muslims with Islamic governments If you're talking about the separation of church and state in the Islamic world, "bring it on!" No, in fact, I'm not talking about separation of church and state at all. What I'm primarily referring to, since you seem to want to go there, is: repressive dictatorships supported by Western governments for Western interests with no concern for human rights or democracy. And that doesn't just apply to Muslin countries. It's happened in places all around the world with much the same results as we're presently seeing in the Middle East.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Aug 1, 2014 1:15:00 GMT -5
Bob, I know Hamas doesn't represent the Palestinians very well. No one does, which is a big part of the problem. Abbas has a 1000 strong Presidential Guard which gives some indication of how insecure he feels as a representative of the Palestinians. He hasn't held an election in a long time. When someone comes forward with a mandate from the Palestinians to negotiate on their behalf, and is willing to recognize Israel as a Jewish-majority state, then life will become a whole lot better for the Palestinian people. The following article discusses a way forward for a demilitarized Gaza: www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-gaza-disarm-20140801-story.html#page=1fixit. You've got your needle stuck.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Aug 1, 2014 9:35:40 GMT -5
The way I see it is if the world rallied behind the Palestinian people the way they rally behind Israel, they would be able to free the Palestinians from Hamas control pretty quickly. But who would want to help Muslims have any power.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Aug 1, 2014 10:36:28 GMT -5
The way I see it is if the world rallied behind the Palestinian people the way they rally behind Israel, they would be able to free the Palestinians from Hamas control pretty quickly. But who would want to help Muslims have any power.Snow ~ Probably no different from the anti-Simetism that was present in our own country back in the 1930's before WWII when Hitler was coming to power? People don't really need reasons to hate another when prejudice is so well imbedded into their psyches by their own politicians and social media, IMHO.
professing.proboards.com/thread/22253/voyage-damned-movie-anti-semitism
|
|