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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2014 0:38:50 GMT -5
How do you come to the conclusion that there is only one country in the whole world who is siding with Israel? Do you mean in the UN council or do you mean individuals within countries? When we talk about countries in this kind of conversation, we are talking about the governments, not the individuals. And yes, the UN vote appears to reflect the comments from all the governments I have heard about individually. The Christian right in all countries will side with Israel, of course, because that is part of their religion.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2014 0:51:55 GMT -5
But you didn't answer my question. They are capable people, but they don't seem to be focused on governing Gaza responsibly. The effort that was made to install 9,000 rockets and build a network of terror tunnels was futile. It was a really bad choice for the allocation of resources. You're confusing the citizens of Gaza with Hamas. The citizens of Gaza did not dig tunnels and they did not shoot rockets. It was Hamas who dug tunnels and shot rockets. The people of Gaza are as much afraid of Hamas as they are of the Israelis right now. And yes, it was a bad choice as far as Israel was concerned that Hamas built tunnels and shot rockets. But in the end it might just be a necessary thing in order to get freedom from Israel's domination. Countries that are profiting from controlling other peoples don't voluntarily give up their control -- they're more apt to make the people fight for it.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2014 0:58:20 GMT -5
And you think they haven't tried? Which brings me to what I consider the more probable outcome of this whole situation between Gaza/Palestine and Israel. Israel will deny them their statehood until the whole of the Palestinian population rises up in rebellion and Israel will be forced to recognize them as a state. Today there is only one country in the whole world who is siding with Israel -- what do you suppose that means? No country that I can think of would tolerate persistent rocket attacks on their civilian population, not to mention terror tunnels under their territory. Of course not. But it's an effective military strategy -- which sometimes works wonderfully well.
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Post by Mary on Jul 30, 2014 2:19:02 GMT -5
Were't those in Gaza building tunnels and firing rockets prior to Hamas taking control?
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2014 9:49:04 GMT -5
If they'd formed a responsible government for the territory of Gaza they could have demonstrated to the world that they're ready for responsible statehood. And you think they haven't tried? Which brings me to what I consider the more probable outcome of this whole situation between Gaza/Palestine and Israel. Israel will deny them their statehood until the whole of the Palestinian population rises up in rebellion and Israel will be forced to recognize them as a state. Today there is only one country in the whole world who is siding with Israel -- what do you suppose that means? Actually Bob 2 countries. Our crazy born again Prime Minister backs them in word anyway. I saw something this morning that says it: My empathy for the suffering in Gaza does not make me anti-semantic, nor does it make me pro-Hamas or anti-Israel. It makes me human. David Harris-Gershon.
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Post by fixit on Jul 30, 2014 15:59:18 GMT -5
If you support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state then you have to accept that it must be defended.
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2014 17:47:38 GMT -5
If you support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state then you have to accept that it must be defended. I do and they must be. but at what cost? and who is going to defend the Palestinians. Certainly not Hamas or Israel. they themselves have no means.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2014 18:01:10 GMT -5
If you support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state then you have to accept that it must be defended. Defending themselves is not the problem -- the problem is that Israel WILL NOT allow Palestinians to have a state of their own. And as long as Israel refuses, the Palestinians will harass them. That's how the world turns when people are denied their freedom. Somewhere in your own history your freedoms were established by terrorist (= forceful/threat of force) means. Israel doesn't get carte blanche to control the Middle East.
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Post by fixit on Jul 30, 2014 18:25:04 GMT -5
If you support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state then you have to accept that it must be defended. I do and they must be. but at what cost? and who is going to defend the Palestinians. Certainly not Hamas or Israel. they themselves have no means. Defend the Palestinians from what? The only thing they need defending from is their own extremists, who bring untold misery on their people through their stupidity.
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Post by fixit on Jul 30, 2014 18:35:58 GMT -5
If you support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state then you have to accept that it must be defended. Defending themselves is not the problem -- the problem is that Israel WILL NOT allow Palestinians to have a state of their own. And as long as Israel refuses, the Palestinians will harass them. That's how the world turns when people are denied their freedom. Somewhere in your own history your freedoms were established by terrorist (= forceful/threat of force) means. Israel doesn't get carte blanche to control the Middle East. Israel cannot allow Palestinians to have a state of their own because they refuse to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 18:41:37 GMT -5
Defending themselves is not the problem -- the problem is that Israel WILL NOT allow Palestinians to have a state of their own. And as long as Israel refuses, the Palestinians will harass them. That's how the world turns when people are denied their freedom. Somewhere in your own history your freedoms were established by terrorist (= forceful/threat of force) means. Israel doesn't get carte blanche to control the Middle East. Israel cannot allow Palestinians to have a state of their own because they refuse to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. its a catch 22 situation...
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2014 19:35:45 GMT -5
Defending themselves is not the problem -- the problem is that Israel WILL NOT allow Palestinians to have a state of their own. And as long as Israel refuses, the Palestinians will harass them. That's how the world turns when people are denied their freedom. Somewhere in your own history your freedoms were established by terrorist (= forceful/threat of force) means. Israel doesn't get carte blanche to control the Middle East. Israel cannot allow Palestinians to have a state of their own because they refuse to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. That's a lot of bull. The US did not recognize China for decades. England didn't recognize the USA until the end of the War for Independence. Anyway, you're wrong about Palestinians not recognizing the State of Israel. Hamas does not, but the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people have been negotiating with Israel for decades to be given statehood -- no one negotiates with anyone they don't recognize. Again, you're confusing the Palestinian people with the Hamas party. Hamas is not the voice of Palestine.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2014 19:39:25 GMT -5
Israel cannot allow Palestinians to have a state of their own because they refuse to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. its a catch 22 situation... Where's the catch 22? Poor sobbing Israel won't allow Palestinians to have a state because Hamas doesn't recognize Israel. That proposition doesn't work. Poor Washington DC revokes Nevada's statehood because the residents of Bullfrog county don't recognize the US Government. It's only a Catch 22 for people who want Israel to incorporate all of Palestine in preparation for the return of Jesus.
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2014 19:49:11 GMT -5
I do and they must be. but at what cost? and who is going to defend the Palestinians. Certainly not Hamas or Israel. they themselves have no means. Defend the Palestinians from what? The only thing they need defending from is their own extremists, who bring untold misery on their people through their stupidity. They need defending from from both. they are a people caught in the middle.
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2014 19:53:51 GMT -5
Defending themselves is not the problem -- the problem is that Israel WILL NOT allow Palestinians to have a state of their own. And as long as Israel refuses, the Palestinians will harass them. That's how the world turns when people are denied their freedom. Somewhere in your own history your freedoms were established by terrorist (= forceful/threat of force) means. Israel doesn't get carte blanche to control the Middle East. Israel cannot allow Palestinians to have a state of their own because they refuse to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Palestinians do recognize Israel as a state. It's Hamas that doesn't. Israel doesn't gain anything by allowing Palestinians their own state. So why would they allow it? I think it's ironic that Israel is doing to the Palestinians exactly what the world did to them for a long time. Keep them in their own area like they are in a prison. Two wrongs don't make a right.
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Post by fixit on Jul 30, 2014 20:03:58 GMT -5
Israel cannot allow Palestinians to have a state of their own because they refuse to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. That's a lot of bull. The US did not recognize China for decades. England didn't recognize the USA until the end of the War for Independence. Anyway, you're wrong about Palestinians not recognizing the State of Israel. Hamas does not, but the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people have been negotiating with Israel for decades to be given statehood -- no one negotiates with anyone they don't recognize. Again, you're confusing the Palestinian people with the Hamas party. Hamas is not the voice of Palestine. No. The Palestinian Authority recognizes Israel as a state. However it refuses to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. That's the biggest sticking point in the negotiations.
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Post by fixit on Jul 30, 2014 20:06:50 GMT -5
its a catch 22 situation... Where's the catch 22? Poor sobbing Israel won't allow Palestinians to have a state because Hamas doesn't recognize Israel. That proposition doesn't work. Poor Washington DC revokes Nevada's statehood because the residents of Bullfrog county don't recognize the US Government. It's only a Catch 22 for people who want Israel to incorporate all of Palestine in preparation for the return of Jesus. Israel is not sobbing. Israel is simply doing what it must do for the security of its citizens - who happen to be Muslim, Jew, Christian, Arab.
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Post by fixit on Jul 30, 2014 20:11:06 GMT -5
Israel cannot allow Palestinians to have a state of their own because they refuse to recognize Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people. Palestinians do recognize Israel as a state. It's Hamas that doesn't. Israel doesn't gain anything by allowing Palestinians their own state. So why would they allow it? I think it's ironic that Israel is doing to the Palestinians exactly what the world did to them for a long time. Keep them in their own area like they are in a prison. Two wrongs don't make a right. The Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, and Israel needs that assurance for negotiations to progress. I'm sure they would grant the Palestinians a state, provided its not a threat to Israel's security. The Jews have come too far now to risk having it blow up in smoke.
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Post by snow on Jul 30, 2014 20:57:58 GMT -5
Palestinians do recognize Israel as a state. It's Hamas that doesn't. Israel doesn't gain anything by allowing Palestinians their own state. So why would they allow it? I think it's ironic that Israel is doing to the Palestinians exactly what the world did to them for a long time. Keep them in their own area like they are in a prison. Two wrongs don't make a right. The Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel as a Jewish state, and Israel needs that assurance for negotiations to progress. I'm sure they would grant the Palestinians a state, provided its not a threat to Israel's security. The Jews have come too far now to risk having it blow up in smoke. Why does it need to be a Jewish state? Why is it not enough to be recognized as a state? The Palestinians would love to be recognized as a state.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2014 21:22:51 GMT -5
That's a lot of bull. The US did not recognize China for decades. England didn't recognize the USA until the end of the War for Independence. Anyway, you're wrong about Palestinians not recognizing the State of Israel. Hamas does not, but the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people have been negotiating with Israel for decades to be given statehood -- no one negotiates with anyone they don't recognize. Again, you're confusing the Palestinian people with the Hamas party. Hamas is not the voice of Palestine. No. The Palestinian Authority recognizes Israel as a state. However it refuses to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. That's the biggest sticking point in the negotiations. That's what I told you -- they recognize Israel as a state. And Israel requiring them to recognize them as a "Jewish" state is not only petty, it's ridiculous. Israel is a secular state where Muslims have full and equal civil rights. What would it matter to anyone in Israel what kind of state anyone else thought it was. Sounds like some wacky Christians I know who continually remind you that they are not "neighbors", they are "Christian neighbors". Secular governments aren't supposed to play those kinds of games.
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Post by fixit on Jul 30, 2014 21:47:11 GMT -5
No. The Palestinian Authority recognizes Israel as a state. However it refuses to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. That's the biggest sticking point in the negotiations. That's what I told you -- they recognize Israel as a state. And Israel requiring them to recognize them as a "Jewish" state is not only petty, it's ridiculous. Israel is a secular state where Muslims have full and equal civil rights. What would it matter to anyone in Israel what kind of state anyone else thought it was. Sounds like some wacky Christians I know who continually remind you that they are not "neighbors", they are "Christian neighbors". Secular governments aren't supposed to play those kinds of games. Not petty at all. The Palestinian Muslims breed faster than the Jews and with the right of return would quickly outnumber the Jews. You'd soon have Sharia law and pogroms in 'secular' Israel. The Israelis can't accept a Palestinian state that doesn't recognize the need for Israel to retain a Jewish majority.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 30, 2014 21:48:41 GMT -5
That's what I told you -- they recognize Israel as a state. And Israel requiring them to recognize them as a "Jewish" state is not only petty, it's ridiculous. Israel is a secular state where Muslims have full and equal civil rights. What would it matter to anyone in Israel what kind of state anyone else thought it was. Sounds like some wacky Christians I know who continually remind you that they are not "neighbors", they are "Christian neighbors". Secular governments aren't supposed to play those kinds of games. Not petty at all. The Palestinian Muslims breed faster than the Jews and with the right of return would quickly outnumber the Jews. You'd soon have Sharia law and pogroms in 'secular' Israel. The Israelis can't accept a Palestinian state that doesn't recognize the need for Israel to retain a Jewish majority. I think I have figured out where you're coming from.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 31, 2014 3:33:33 GMT -5
From Fixit's post
The Palestinian Muslims breed faster than the Jews and with the right of return would quickly outnumber the Jews.
You'd soon have Sharia law and pogroms in 'secular' Israel
hmmmmmmmm!
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Post by snow on Jul 31, 2014 10:47:08 GMT -5
Thought this was an interesting article. readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/25070-why-did-bernie-sanders-get-gaza-so-wrongFixit, why should Israel be a Jewish state? No other country has those stipulations? Why Israel? Don't they have any say in immigration? All countries are likely faced with that same issue. Should we all claim a certain religion be recognized in all the other countries? That's pretty much what is being said when Jews need a Jewish state because Muslims breed faster and they are concerned with Sharia law.
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Post by faune on Jul 31, 2014 11:49:46 GMT -5
No. The Palestinian Authority recognizes Israel as a state. However it refuses to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. That's the biggest sticking point in the negotiations. That's what I told you -- they recognize Israel as a state. And Israel requiring them to recognize them as a "Jewish" state is not only petty, it's ridiculous. Israel is a secular state where Muslims have full and equal civil rights. What would it matter to anyone in Israel what kind of state anyone else thought it was. Sounds like some wacky Christians I know who continually remind you that they are not "neighbors", they are "Christian neighbors". Secular governments aren't supposed to play those kinds of games. Bob ~ Religious beliefs seem to always muddy the waters, don't they? It's been the case since the beginning of Christianity and about every other world religion known today.
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Post by fixit on Jul 31, 2014 13:57:37 GMT -5
Thought this was an interesting article. readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/25070-why-did-bernie-sanders-get-gaza-so-wrongFixit, why should Israel be a Jewish state? No other country has those stipulations? Why Israel? Don't they have any say in immigration? All countries are likely faced with that same issue. Should we all claim a certain religion be recognized in all the other countries? That's pretty much what is being said when Jews need a Jewish state because Muslims breed faster and they are concerned with Sharia law. Compare that article with the Israeli statistics for rocket fire and ceasefire violations: mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/terrorism/pages/palestinian_ceasefire_violations_since_end_operation_cast_lead.aspxIn most if not all Muslim-majority countries the Muslim religion is enshrined in their constitution and none of them would allow immigrants from other religions to outnumber them. Don't forget that many of the Jews living in Israel were thrown out of Muslim countries and fled leaving everything behind.
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Post by snow on Jul 31, 2014 14:58:34 GMT -5
Thought this was an interesting article. readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/25070-why-did-bernie-sanders-get-gaza-so-wrongFixit, why should Israel be a Jewish state? No other country has those stipulations? Why Israel? Don't they have any say in immigration? All countries are likely faced with that same issue. Should we all claim a certain religion be recognized in all the other countries? That's pretty much what is being said when Jews need a Jewish state because Muslims breed faster and they are concerned with Sharia law. Compare that article with the Israeli statistics for rocket fire and ceasefire violations: mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpolicy/terrorism/pages/palestinian_ceasefire_violations_since_end_operation_cast_lead.aspxIn most if not all Muslim-majority countries the Muslim religion is enshrined in their constitution and none of them would allow immigrants from other religions to outnumber them. Don't forget that many of the Jews living in Israel were thrown out of Muslim countries and fled leaving everything behind. Why does it seem you are so down on Muslims? Why should Palestine have to suffer so much? Because they are Muslim? Israel should have more power than Muslims? Isn't this a double standard?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 15:19:33 GMT -5
Why does it seem you are so down on Muslims? Why should Palestine have to suffer so much? Because they are Muslim? Israel should have more power than Muslims? Isn't this a double standard? because of thier record on a number of things...like beheadings/killings for not believing in allah, amputations for crimes,suicide bombers including children,their record on basic rights for women(which is deplorable) to name a few
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