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Post by Annan on Jul 20, 2014 14:03:56 GMT -5
Do you believe this, or are you just speculating? Just speculating. I mean, if you're going to tell a story, at least have it make sense.
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Post by matisse on Jul 20, 2014 14:19:36 GMT -5
As to the sex thing, I think that Adam has his gonads and fleshly needs and this is when God saw that Adam was "lonely" and He gave him Eve, who also had whatever gonads were appropriate to complement Adam's! Something of that ilk, eh? But why would Adam need gonads and fleshly needs if he did not have a mate? Why would God need gonads, for that matter!
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Post by snow on Jul 20, 2014 14:22:59 GMT -5
But why would Adam need gonads and fleshly needs if he did not have a mate? Why would God need gonads, for that matter! Well you have to admit that it takes gonads to do some of the things he's done or asked others to do...
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 20, 2014 16:47:49 GMT -5
No they don't even understand most of the time how pagan it is for a God to impregnate a Virgin. I often wonder how people who convert from other religions to Christianity or Islam and buy into the virgin birth concept. Do they convert for the lifestyle and morals, or do they buy into the theology? I know people who have come from other denominations and professed in the 2x2s and they certainly have not done so because of the belief system. I do know what I am working up to here....... In World Civilization class, I remember a couple of reasons that some of the Greek-Roman population converted to Christianity..
#1) was that is was much easier to placate ONE God, as the Christian one, than have to remember all the Greek- Roman gods & goddesses and have to placate all of them.
#2) was they liked feeling of the so-called "personal" aspect of a the Christians god relationship between themselves & the Christian god, something that you still hear Christians saying today.
Of course it wasn't long until the Catholic Church took away that "personal" relationship which still exists today. The Catholic church insisted that man must go through a priest in order to approach God.
That sounds like the 2x2 God & the workers today!
If nothing else, shouldn't that alone cause people to understand the reason for religion? Control, control, control!
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 20, 2014 16:50:43 GMT -5
Why would God need gonads, for that matter! Well you have to admit that it takes gonads to do some of the things he's done or asked others to do...
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Post by faune on Jul 20, 2014 19:58:27 GMT -5
Yes there is probably more meaning to the story than we will ever know. However, I want to point out that according to the Bible Eve did succumb to the temptation of the devil. Didn't she? What I meant was tempted= testing in deceiving Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. I wouldn't be surprised if Satan had tempted Eve into leaving Adam either. Who knows what really happened to Lilith Adam's first wife. We know the fallen angels have the ability of having sexual intercourse with human women to create their own hybrid race of demigods to rule the world. The Messiah SEED has to come from Adam and Eve seed if Satan was able to lead Eve astray then there would be no hope/Salvation for humanity. Nathan ~ Are you suggesting that Lilith, Adam's presumed first wife, was actually a fallen angel? Why would God allow a fallen angel to be Adam's companion in the beginning of the human race? I thought she was created out of the dust just like Adam, making them actually equals in many ways? However, Eve was taken from his side (the rib theory) and became subservient to Adam as a result. Honestly, that whole scenario sounds pretty sexist to me, reflective of a man's world where women are treated as personal possessions and below man on the totem pole.
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Post by faune on Jul 20, 2014 20:35:32 GMT -5
I really don't see that to be plausible. If the plagues happened as they outline, they definitely would not have just affected the Egyptians. Also, why would just that portion of the Nile become slow moving and grow algae that made the water toxic and appear to be red like blood? The nile is not a small river and so it would have effected all settlements on it. We don't see that. We also don't hear of any record by the Egyptians that these things happened and if they did, you can bet they would have. They recorded everything. Also, the Hebrew people are said to have numbered in the millions. There is no record of the Egyptians losing that number of slaves. Losing that number of workers would have impacted them greatly, yet we don't have any record of it. Their wanderings with so many people would have also left some sort of archaeological footprint, yet we don't see anything that indicates that many people. The Hebrew people were not a large kingdom, but rather a few desert tribes. They spent more time in captivity to the powerful nations that surrounded them then actually a Kingdom of their own that was of any consequence. So, while these plagues could have a natural 'act of God' basis, it is highly unlikely because there really is not record made by the Egyptians and if all those horrible things happened to them you can bet it would be written down somewhere. Other than the Bible that is. egyptians were known for not recording defeats of any kind in their history... there is some small archeological findings in Simcha Jacobovici movie about the exodus... Wally ~ Well, I finally found that short 2-Part video clip on You-tube where scientists explain their theory connected to the 10 Plagues, which might give a little more light on this matter? www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGACkMBxZNs&list=PL70CA7D5F6DDA740A&index=1 The Science of the 10 Plagues ~ Part 1www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_oreLXrEXg The Science of the 10 Plagues ~ Part 2
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Post by snow on Jul 20, 2014 21:34:26 GMT -5
Nathan, Lilith was our first women's liber.
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Post by faune on Jul 20, 2014 21:42:32 GMT -5
Do you believe this, or are you just speculating? You do know, I presume, that divine creatures coming down to earth to mate with humans is Pagan, not Biblical. Christians seem not to even like that phraseology when it is applied to Jesus conception, but Pagans have always made such claims. No they don't even understand most of the time how pagan it is for a God to impregnate a Virgin. Snow ~ Neither did I know this until I started studying a little more about Pagan customs and beliefs. It's actually amazing the amount of similarity between pagan and Christian practices and beliefs. One practice that definitely comes to mind at this time is the practice of the Eucharist and what it symbolizes. In fact, I started a thread about this topic in the past entitled Christian Dilemmas. Also, from past study along these lines, I learned that many of the stories we find even within the gospels can be found with Egyptian folklore ~ for example, the story of the rising of Lazarus and his sisters in John 11. On the subject of Hell, there's also a story similar to the story found in Luke 16 about the rich man and Lazarus and the great gulf fixed between Paradise and Hades. That's one reason why the mythicists, who believe Jesus was just a myth and didn't really exist, have such a hayday with the gospel accounts. However, Bart Ehrman counteracted many of their strongly held beliefs in his fairly recent book, "Did Jesus Exists ~ the Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth." Although Bart Ehrman is today an agnostic, he still believes in the historical Jesus and cites evidence for his existence in history. I also share this same view myself after giving the subject some study over this past year. professing.proboards.com/thread/22036/christian-dilemmas?page=1 On Page 2 of this same thread, it deals with the Creation account of Adam and Eve and the concept of "origin sin" among a number of other subjects that became a part of Christian dogma.
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Post by faune on Jul 20, 2014 22:11:49 GMT -5
Annan ~ I was also wondering recently about where St. Anne was these days, as I haven't seen her posting on TMB for some time now.
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Post by snow on Jul 20, 2014 22:14:25 GMT -5
Nathan, Lilith was our first women's liber. Yes, I know. Perhaps, Adam didn't like woman equality. Many Women, like to wear pants in the families... In many cases they are good leaders. They can run things better than men. Women have an important roles to fill. I believe Jesus wanted to show equality to his own disciples/apostles about the women roles in the ministry to Mary Magdalene important role during his ministry on earth... It seems Paul followed Jesus' example by having women included as apostles/preachers, leaders in the churches like the men but it seemed Peter and others did NOT like it.I think it probably is because the Hebrew people were a patriarchal society so their Eve needed to be submissive instead of equal. I can't see Lilith ever being someone's possession.
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Post by snow on Jul 20, 2014 22:15:42 GMT -5
Annan ~ I was also wondering recently about where St. Anne was these days, as I haven't seen her posting on TMB for some time now. She's taking a break. Just reading I think. I think she plans on posting again though.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 21, 2014 2:31:40 GMT -5
So where was this Adam and Eve born. What colour was their skin?
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Post by rational on Jul 21, 2014 8:15:45 GMT -5
So where was this Adam and Eve born. What colour was their skin? Born? Next you will be asking if they had bellybuttons! Some ideas!
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Post by Annan on Jul 21, 2014 8:38:31 GMT -5
We will never Know the REAL reason to why Lilith Left Adam. Lilith wasn't too happy and became a demon/destroyer of Eve's children. How does a human being become a demon?
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Post by rational on Jul 21, 2014 10:13:48 GMT -5
We will never Know the REAL reason to why Lilith Left Adam. Lilith wasn't too happy and became a demon/destroyer of Eve's children. How does a human being become a demon? I believe it is 2 years of classroom study followed by 3 years of work in the field.
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Post by Annan on Jul 21, 2014 12:33:46 GMT -5
How does a human being become a demon? He/she taken over by Satan's spirit, a stronger power than the humans... the Story of demons possessed man Legion means We're Many! Luke 5: 1-13 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. 11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.
~~ There were/are many demons on the earth. The demons spirit can't die. After they leave one body they just seek another body to possess... Mark 1:23-26 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.
26 And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.
~~ The demons KNOW who Jesus is, the Holy One of God. Mark 1:34-35 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.
35 And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.
~~ It seems many people get possessed by the demons when they have allowed the door of their hearts opened, they play Oweji board games, trying to contacts with the spirits, a person is having a weak mind/spirit, and when the Lord is NOT reigning in their lives. Jesus speaks about The parable of the Empty house... Only the Spirit of Christ can overcome the demons and Satan because he is much stronger and more powerful than the demons and Satan.
I believe Lilith was deceived and under the control of Satan after she left Adam and became a demon herself.Aren't you talking about possession here? You said that Lilith became a demon. Being coming a demon and being possessed by one is not the same thing, at least not in my book.
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Post by Annan on Jul 21, 2014 16:00:35 GMT -5
I don't watch videos. The scripture quotes you gave talked about demon possession. You still haven't explained how Lilith became a demon.
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Post by snow on Jul 21, 2014 16:33:33 GMT -5
I don't watch videos. The scripture quotes you gave talked about demon possession. You still haven't explained how Lilith became a demon. I'd be interested in that too. I take it you don't believe what Rational said about how to become a demon...
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 21, 2014 17:26:49 GMT -5
Was Lilith perhaps a product of Nepthilim? I mean the angels who came down to earth and didn't return to heaven and they desired to marry with the women of the earth...but of course then we'd have to have more then one man wouldn't we? But perhaps the angels ARE God's way of providing wives/husbands for those first generations or so....I don't know, but anything is supposed to be possible with God. As to the sex thing, I think that Adam has his gonads and fleshly needs and this is when God saw that Adam was "lonely" and He gave him Eve, who also had whatever gonads were appropriate to complement Adam's! Something of that ilk, eh? Do you believe this, or are you just speculating? You do know, I presume, that divine creatures coming down to earth to mate with humans is Pagan, not Biblical. Christians seem not to even like that phraseology when it is applied to Jesus conception, but Pagans have always made such claims. I believe it is biblical! Depends I suppose on how one interprets things...like in Gen. 6 "(2) The sons of God. . . . —The literal translation of this verse is, And the sons of the Elohim saw the daughters of the adam that they were good (beautiful); and they took to them wives whomsoever they chose. Of the sons of the Elohim there are three principal interpretations: the first, that of the Targums and the chief Jewish expositors, that they were the nobles, and men of high rank; the second, that they were angels. St. Jude, Jude 1:6, and St. Peter, 2 Ep., 2Peter 2:4, seem to favour this interpretation, possibly as being the translation of the LXX. according to several MSS. But even if this be their meaning, which is very uncertain, they use it only as an illustration; and a higher authority says that the angels neither marry nor are given in marriage. The third, and most generally accepted interpretation in modern times, is that the sons of the Elohim were the Sethites, and that when they married for mere lust of beauty, universal corruption soon ensued. But no modern commentator has shown how such marriages could produce “mighty men . . . men of renown;” or how strong warriors could be the result of the intermarriage of pious men with women of an inferior race, such as the Cainites are assumed to have been. etc" biblehub.com/commentaries/genesis/6-2.htmThere are other places which tell it was angels that didn't want to return to heaven after seeing what was available on earth. The thing that they say that angels don't marry or have sexual relations is true for the heavenly realm, but I'd have to wonder if it wouldn't be possible that angels could very well become much like humans if that was their desire? I have to think that if they were to ask their boss, God, that with Him not having anything He can not do, that He might discourage them from doing such a thing, but then He would grant it to them should they ask AFTER He'd reminded them what they're going to be getting themselves into with all the trials and tribulations of married life on earth in comparison to all the sweetness of the heavens above...... I think what I'm saying is that anything is possible.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 21, 2014 17:31:23 GMT -5
As to the sex thing, I think that Adam has his gonads and fleshly needs and this is when God saw that Adam was "lonely" and He gave him Eve, who also had whatever gonads were appropriate to complement Adam's! Something of that ilk, eh? But why would Adam need gonads and fleshly needs if he did not have a mate? I believe God had full intentions that Adam would do his fair share of populating the earth!
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Post by snow on Jul 21, 2014 17:41:56 GMT -5
But why would Adam need gonads and fleshly needs if he did not have a mate? I believe God had full intentions that Adam would do his fair share of populating the earth! Golly, think of the pressure on the poor guy!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 21, 2014 17:46:31 GMT -5
I believe God had full intentions that Adam would do his fair share of populating the earth! Golly, think of the pressure on the poor guy! Well, he stubbed his toe by not keeping his first wife and ended up having only one wife, so he did have to start right early! If he'd talked Lilith into staying and then Eve came along, he'd had a better time of it, eh?
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Post by snow on Jul 21, 2014 17:49:26 GMT -5
Golly, think of the pressure on the poor guy! Well, he stubbed his toe by not keeping his first wife and ended up having only one wife, so he did have to start right early! If he'd talked Lilith into staying and then Eve came along, he'd had a better time of it, eh? Good point! However, would that mean the Mormons are right!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 21, 2014 18:05:54 GMT -5
Well, he stubbed his toe by not keeping his first wife and ended up having only one wife, so he did have to start right early! If he'd talked Lilith into staying and then Eve came along, he'd had a better time of it, eh? Good point! However, would that mean the Mormons are right! Well, I'm not to say that....however there were more then one man in the OT that had more then one wife and a concubine or harem also! Some men just gotta.....you know!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 21, 2014 22:02:22 GMT -5
Do you believe this, or are you just speculating? You do know, I presume, that divine creatures coming down to earth to mate with humans is Pagan, not Biblical. Christians seem not to even like that phraseology when it is applied to Jesus conception, but Pagans have always made such claims. I believe it is biblical! Depends I suppose on how one interprets things...like in Gen. 6 "(2) The sons of God. . . . —The literal translation of this verse is, And the sons of the Elohim saw the daughters of the adam that they were good (beautiful); and they took to them wives whomsoever they chose. Of the sons of the Elohim there are three principal interpretations: the first, that of the Targums and the chief Jewish expositors, that they were the nobles, and men of high rank; the second, that they were angels. St. Jude, Jude 1:6, and St. Peter, 2 Ep., 2Peter 2:4, seem to favour this interpretation, possibly as being the translation of the LXX. according to several MSS. But even if this be their meaning, which is very uncertain, they use it only as an illustration; and a higher authority says that the angels neither marry nor are given in marriage. The third, and most generally accepted interpretation in modern times, is that the sons of the Elohim were the Sethites, and that when they married for mere lust of beauty, universal corruption soon ensued. But no modern commentator has shown how such marriages could produce “mighty men . . . men of renown;” or how strong warriors could be the result of the intermarriage of pious men with women of an inferior race, such as the Cainites are assumed to have been. etc" biblehub.com/commentaries/genesis/6-2.htmThere are other places which tell it was angels that didn't want to return to heaven after seeing what was available on earth. The thing that they say that angels don't marry or have sexual relations is true for the heavenly realm, but I'd have to wonder if it wouldn't be possible that angels could very well become much like humans if that was their desire? I have to think that if they were to ask their boss, God, that with Him not having anything He can not do, that He might discourage them from doing such a thing, but then He would grant it to them should they ask AFTER He'd reminded them what they're going to be getting themselves into with all the trials and tribulations of married life on earth in comparison to all the sweetness of the heavens above...... I think what I'm saying is that anything is possible. As you say, the Bible can mean anything one wants to make it say. My point is that Christians do not believe anyone other than Mary, Jesus' mother, was impregnated by a divinity. Or do they? Now it's up to Christians to decide what they think of all the other such births one can possibly find in the Old Testament, but whatever you find there is simply because in the OT the children of Israel were not always monotheistic -- the god of Abraham was in fact the Pagan god that Abraham selected to worship ahead of all others. That's why I said it was more Pagan than Christian (not exactly Biblical, as I corrected)
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