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Post by What Hat on Jul 14, 2014 16:36:37 GMT -5
More appropriately referred to as a new interpretation. so in other words God has been cut out of the loop? after all He is the giver of all interpretation that has to do with the Kingdom, or is man now saying this is how we interpret it and you have to accept that? As soon as you say "interpretation", man comes into it. "Interpretation" is taking God given revelation and running with it. In I Co 14:26 you can see it's one of the gifts that people have.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 14, 2014 16:43:30 GMT -5
It depends which god you're talking about. People have always worshiped the god that served them best. Christians who believe they worship the god of Abraham will, of course, object to that statement, because they believe they are indeed worshiping the same god. However, the god of Abraham is hardly recognizable compared to the god of modern Christians. So you can call it a different god, or a new interpretation of an old god. Either way, the idea that "god never changes" is a bit of a fantasy. Re: "is man now saying this is how we interpret it and you have to accept that"... Do you see anything wrong with that statement? God the Father of Jesus Christ and that is the problem, God has told us very plainy that we are to worship Him not the god that suits us the reason that the god of Abraham is hardly recognizable compared to the god of modern Christians is because he is not the God of Abraham but the god of their own choosing, the God of Abraham is very reconizable to those whom He will show Himself to no i don't but i would change you to He has......... The conflict for most people isn't finding a more likable God than what they are told. For most people the problem is that what they are told defies reason in so many ways. In trying to find God as He is, I'm afraid it has led me away from the existing churches.
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Post by fixit on Jul 14, 2014 16:52:50 GMT -5
The conflict for most people isn't finding a more likable God than what they are told. For most people the problem is that what they are told defies reason in so many ways. In trying to find God as He is, I'm afraid it has led me away from the existing churches. I know the feeling. Here's what we should be looking for:
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Post by What Hat on Jul 14, 2014 16:58:56 GMT -5
Surely someone somewhere is listening! Also, how do you know for sure that God wouldn't change things to meet the needs of each generation? Not the basics, but the understanding as we grow and learn things. You do realize that the bible reflects the beliefs of people of that time and we now can disprove much of what they believed. That is what I am talking about. As we live and learn new things, don't you think God would reveal more based on our ability to understand more? why should He? His word is good for all time it has nothing to do with any ability that man has, He has given His word through His Son once and for all nothing needs to be changed, it is full and perfect nothing can be or will be added to it to suit what man thinks There are a couple of problems with that line of thinking. First of all, people who think as you do, and place their complete trust in the Bible as God's Word, believing it to be full and perfect, as you say, still end up in quite different places. They don't agree, not in terms of their own ideas, but in terms of God's understanding. So how can God let that happen? Second, science has provided much information that is contrary to the Bible being "full and perfect". I don't need to start on that. So, personally, I think the truth of the Bible is subject to interpretation, but not "private" interpretation. I also think no one person has the mind of God, anything anyone says about the Bible is a matter of interpretation. Often people think they have the right interpretation because they are afraid of using their own minds, and have yielded to God. But in my view they haven't yielded to God at all; often, they're just mentally lazy and have let someone else do the thinking for them; workers, their parents, their minister, their church. It's always someone's interpretation, isn't it? So, is there a mind of God after all? Yes, I believe that there is. For example, we often argue about the Trinity and such. But people who believe in the Trinity can still have the mind of God, as well as people who don't believe in it. That's purely a side point. When you are at the judgement seat, God's not going to care about your theology, I feel quite confident in saying.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 17:07:25 GMT -5
So, is there a mind of God after all? Yes, I believe that there is. WhatHat, What is your basis for believing that there is a 'mind of God'? How did you come to that conclusion? And can you explain what the 'mind of God' is? Matt10
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Post by What Hat on Jul 14, 2014 17:41:36 GMT -5
So, is there a mind of God after all? Yes, I believe that there is. WhatHat, What is your basis for believing that there is a 'mind of God'? How did you come to that conclusion? And can you explain what the 'mind of God' is? Matt10 That there is a 'mind of God', I'm certain. What that mind thinks, and how it thinks, I'm sorry, I don't have much specific or definitive to say. I don't have a clue, for example, as to how long the world will last, and what will happen in the last days. Nonetheless, the Christian mode of belief in ascertaining the mind of God, which includes its purpose and will for my life, has worked quite well for me. That is, I believe I can have a dialogue with the 'mind of God' and that ability has been put into me. The dialogue is exercised through prayer, contemplation, worship, and a lesser extent, social intercourse and discussion. Perhaps also in experience itself. If someone tells me they have a similar kind of dialogue with God through native spirituality, Islam, Catholicism or Pentecostalism, I'm inclined to take them at their word.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 18:02:00 GMT -5
That there is a 'mind of God', I'm certain. What that mind thinks, and how it thinks, I'm sorry, I don't have much specific or definitive to say. I don't have a clue, for example, as to how long the world will last, and what will happen in the last days. Nonetheless, the Christian mode of belief in ascertaining the mind of God, which includes its purpose and will for my life, has worked quite well for me. That is, I believe I can have a dialogue with the 'mind of God' and that ability has been put into me. The dialogue is exercised through prayer, contemplation, worship, and a lesser extent, social intercourse and discussion. Perhaps also in experience itself. If someone tells me they have a similar kind of dialogue with God through native spirituality, Islam, Catholicism or Pentecostalism, I'm inclined to take them at their word. What Hat I don’t think you answered any of those questions. Can you outline any of the things the ‘mind of God’ said to you during your dialogue with it through prayer, contemplation, worship, social intercourse (I’m relieved you said ‘social’) or discussion, and how you can be certain it was the 'mind of God' that was the source of those things and not your own mind? Matt10
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 14, 2014 18:06:51 GMT -5
so in other words God has been cut out of the loop? after all He is the giver of all interpretation that has to do with the Kingdom, or is man now saying this is how we interpret it and you have to accept that? As soon as you say "interpretation", man comes into it. "Interpretation" is taking God given revelation and running with it. In I Co 14:26 you can see it's one of the gifts that people have. Yes, the word "interpretation" can open all kinds of doors, or perhaps cans of worms! I am currently (re-)reading Canadian theologian Douglas Hall's Thinking the Faith: Christian Theology in a North American Context, which focuses on "contextuality," as suggested in the books sub-title. And this word too, as any other, needs to be qualified and defined, which Hall very carefully does Hall's argument is that every theologian (including those who did not necessarily think of themselves as theologians, like the gospel writers and Paul), writes from a context, and some - like Luther - very pointedly address their context, even though they did not specifically think of themselves as doing so. Hall further argues that much of our theology has been imported from Europe, specifically 20th-century Germany - Karl Barth, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Paul Tillich, Jurgen Moltmann (to name only a very few). These men deeply engaged with their context, addressing German Christianity's non-critical acceptance of German leadership. These were Hall's teachers and friends; he deeply respects and often quotes them, but he feels that simply "importing" their theology without addressing our North American context has led to either a too-easy piety and declaration of certain "understandings' of God, or a total rejection of something that simply doesn't address our lives - our set of anxieties, and our perhaps too-easy overlooking of the effect of our standard of living on our "neighbor" - other countries, other peoples. Hall feels that the current "disestablishment" of Christianity - the end of the "Constantinian" era, in which people have just been culturally "born" into Christianity - is a place of hope and opportunity, not just to employ new methods to gain members, but to specifically engage with our context. "Interpretation" does often translate to a too-unreflective acceptance of whatever cultural trend that comes along, or a too-unflective engagement with the issues. As I engaged with an extremely "liberal" church in Honolulu, my question was often, "So what do we, as a Christian church, bring to the table that is any different from the university, other activism, etc.?" (and I do respect those!) I do believe the Christian message brings something beyond social activism, though I feel it should be deeply concerned with humanity's "crying out," with environmental concerns, etc. The other extreme - "Just take what you are given to endure here on earth, and you'll get your pie-in-the-sky," is of course entirely unacceptable as well!
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 14, 2014 18:27:35 GMT -5
So, is there a mind of God after all? Yes, I believe that there is. WhatHat, What is your basis for believing that there is a 'mind of God'? How did you come to that conclusion? And can you explain what the 'mind of God' is? Matt10 May I slip into the conversation here? I also believe in a "mind of God," but I need to carefully qualify what I mean by that as well, as it too often seems to imply that a person can foresee future events - including dates and details - or that a person knows what everyone else should be doing to be "saved." I look to the prophetic history of Israel as instructive. The prophets were not attempting to establish a timeline by which people could determine when this or that would happen - prediction - but they were primarily interested in social critique, and often stated their critique in terms of what would happen if this or that course were taken. Israel's foundational stories - Abraham's call and the Exodus, teach of a God who had an extremely long-range purpose in mind. And of course people often did not fit in with that, but God gives humans freedom to make their own choices, and through it all, slowly, a history was built, that for me is the basis of feeling that God has a mind in things - a gradual teaching humanity how to rightly use its freedom, in community with others. And again, I am fully aware that the entire Judeo-Christian history is full of humanity wrongly using its freedom! I feel that Christianity, partially through adoption of Greek "categories," has left its Hebrew roots behind. I do not say there is nothing instructive in Greek philosophy - Paul Tillich brings things together throughout his writings - but Christianity has forgotten that the Hebrew God was a god of history, working in time and space, very much affecting community - in other words, Hebrew thinking focused on earthly blessing, not the "pie-in-the-sky," but they also saw God intervening in history, rather than seeing everything as a cause-effect relationship.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 14, 2014 19:50:02 GMT -5
The conflict for most people isn't finding a more likable God than what they are told. For most people the problem is that what they are told defies reason in so many ways. In trying to find God as He is, I'm afraid it has led me away from the existing churches. I know the feeling. Here's what we should be looking for: The Golden Rule has been around long before Jesus said anything .
It is the ethic of reciprocity ethical code of morality which essentially states "One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself" or "love others as you love yourself."
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 14, 2014 20:01:37 GMT -5
Now I'm confused! What does 2 u mean? not sure -- what does it mean to you? Don't know what it means! Why did virgo use that?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 20:27:45 GMT -5
WhatHat, What is your basis for believing that there is a 'mind of God'? How did you come to that conclusion? And can you explain what the 'mind of God' is? Matt10 May I slip into the conversation here? I also believe in a "mind of God," ..... Yes, but again like WH, you don't appear to have answered the questions. What people believe is a lot less interesting to me than why they believe what they believe, or why they don't believe what other people believe. Perhaps you can clarify: What do you mean by the term 'mind of God'? What is it that has persuaded you to 'believe in a mind of God'? Do you believe that the 'mind of God' is a theoretical concept only or does it exist in practice, i.e. outside of the mind of man and of the bible? Matt10
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 14, 2014 21:59:14 GMT -5
May I slip into the conversation here? I also believe in a "mind of God," ..... Yes, but again like WH, you don't appear to have answered the questions. What people believe is a lot less interesting to me than why they believe what they believe, or why they don't believe what other people believe. Perhaps you can clarify: What do you mean by the term 'mind of God'? What is it that has persuaded you to 'believe in a mind of God'? Do you believe that the 'mind of God' is a theoretical concept only or does it exist in practice, i.e. outside of the mind of man and of the bible? Matt10 Okay, Matt, I'll give it a try, as I think I now understand what you're asking . . . and those are good questions! First, I don't see God as a being "out there somewhere," comparable, though even infinitely superior to, us. I relate to Tillich's understanding of God as the "ground of all being," that is also greater than we, and leading into a future. "Mind" is probably metaphoric, since God is not something we can really grasp or describe, but it does speak to me of intelligence, knowing, planning . . . Modern use speaks of "universe," or of something that is the sum of the cosmos, including humanity. I see something that includes this, but is yet greater than and "above" (not spatially, but metaphorically), and that does have awareness. As far as God "planning," I don't intend that to mean that every move and thought is known ahead, but more like there is an intended direction or destiny, while allowing us freedom to choose, and using our choices toward the greater intention. I think this has more or less answered questions 1 and 3. As far as what has persuaded me, this goes back to my earlier comments on the God of history. The biblical story slowly builds a witness with individuals and among a community, and I feel like it is my response to gradually larger "promptings" that has led to belief. I see this not so much as "belief in God," but rather "believing God." A prompting and response, and it leads somewhere desirable, it opens up my thinking, changes my interaction with others . . . Some of the "promptings" for me, which have of course also had elements of others' expectations (I don't see these as mutually exclusive) have been: A feeling that I should go ahead and be baptized (by a worker), even when I felt so greatly that I didn't have a clue what it was all about. It is still a meaningful touchpoint for me, to the extent that I told a church I joined later that I would not be willing to join if they required a baptism in that church. A prompting regarding the work, which I had earlier known I would have to think about someday. This occurred the day before I began my junior year in high school, and I fought it for a few weeks. Of course, knowing I would need to finish school, I didn't immediately offer, and nearly a year after graduating, I was waiting for another "prompting," then felt very strongly, "Well, God told you once, and he hasn't changed his mind!" I wrote a letter then. I later felt a prompting to leave the work, in the midst of a hell I was going through, in regard to the expected celibacy. A few years after this, I realized that it was now the time to step aside from the fellowship. This wasn't just an easy little "okay" thing. As some on here are aware, it came after several years of what is generally called "misunderstanding," although I feel like "purposeful misrepresentation" is more accurate. It hurt, and it of course would be logical to just quit, but I did feel a reassuring "voice" (not literal) telling me it was the right step. Other "promptings" have been there too, both within and outside of the work and the fellowship. Most of these have been in more personal decisions, and often very contrary to what general advice or "common sense" would tell me. But sometimes it is also just to fit in and accept something. It's all very subjective, I am fully aware, and not easy to convince someone of it - but then, I'm not really interested in convincing anyone! It is simply how I live . . .
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Post by fixit on Jul 14, 2014 22:01:50 GMT -5
I do believe the Christian message brings something beyond social activism, though I feel it should be deeply concerned with humanity's "crying out," with environmental concerns, etc. As an aside, one environmental concern we hear little about is the $500 billion per year that governments pay to their citizens to burn fuel. It's environmental and economic stupidity. www.worldenergyoutlook.org/resources/energysubsidies/
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 14, 2014 22:05:20 GMT -5
I agree, but let's not derail the thread here!
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Post by What Hat on Jul 14, 2014 22:13:48 GMT -5
That there is a 'mind of God', I'm certain. What that mind thinks, and how it thinks, I'm sorry, I don't have much specific or definitive to say. I don't have a clue, for example, as to how long the world will last, and what will happen in the last days. Nonetheless, the Christian mode of belief in ascertaining the mind of God, which includes its purpose and will for my life, has worked quite well for me. That is, I believe I can have a dialogue with the 'mind of God' and that ability has been put into me. The dialogue is exercised through prayer, contemplation, worship, and a lesser extent, social intercourse and discussion. Perhaps also in experience itself. If someone tells me they have a similar kind of dialogue with God through native spirituality, Islam, Catholicism or Pentecostalism, I'm inclined to take them at their word. What Hat I don’t think you answered any of those questions. Can you outline any of the things the ‘mind of God’ said to you during your dialogue with it through prayer, contemplation, worship, social intercourse (I’m relieved you said ‘social’) or discussion, and how you can be certain it was the 'mind of God' that was the source of those things and not your own mind? Matt10 Sometimes you may think of something that happened to you in the past, a positive or negative experience, and thinking about that experience rekindles an emotion in your mind. That emotion is like the emotion when you originally went through the experience, and yet, the emotion and the memory of the experience are all inside your mind, even though the original source was something that happened in the past. As humans we have this ability to relive, or to experience vicariously, things that happened to us a long time ago, or even things that have never happened, that we just imagine. Thus the "conversation with God" is all inside your mind, and yet it's not, because God is a construction of something you believe is outside your mind, out there somewhere. Does that make any sense? As to the content of the conversation ... problems, feelings, thoughts. It's a genuine conversation. Singing a hymn is a conversation; so is communal prayer.
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Post by snow on Jul 14, 2014 23:11:21 GMT -5
Oh no question, the D was definitely a B and that C was really a G.... Bet you're glad you have me around to help you with these things... You must be just starting out at this heart writing stuff. Once you get the hang of it, you will get entire books written there! My cardiologist will be less than pleased! Eh! What does he know anyway? Heart writing is way beyond his level of expertise
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 23:15:27 GMT -5
not sure -- what does it mean to you? Don't know what it means! Why did virgo use that?
to you
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 14, 2014 23:37:37 GMT -5
to you but "to you"what? How does that fit into your post to Bob?virgo 10 Jul 2014 at 21:10 virgo said: "that makes no sense to me"BobWilliston 10 Jul 2014 at 23:10 BobWilliston said: "Which further proves my point" Then you, virgo, said "2 u"
Maybe it sounds silly to want to know, but you see, I am getting older & trying very hard to keep up with all these new "2 thumb" contractions used these days!
Sometimes I think I should just quit & go back to my knitting. I can understand the use of the thumb in knitting!
Well, sometimes! Sometimes I make a mare's nest out of my knitting as well!
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Post by snow on Jul 14, 2014 23:51:17 GMT -5
dmg I believe that Virgo is answering Bob's comment "which further proves my point'. Then virgo says 2u, meaning it proves the point to Bob, but not Virgo?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 0:22:47 GMT -5
dmg I believe that Virgo is answering Bob's comment "which further proves my point'. Then virgo says 2u, meaning it proves the point to Bob, but not Virgo? top of the class 4 u
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Post by fixit on Jul 15, 2014 0:23:12 GMT -5
I later felt a prompting to leave the work, in the midst of a hell I was going through, in regard to the expected celibacy. Alan, do you think this would be the main reason folks leave the work? Would allowing married workers be a realistic solution to that problem?
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 15, 2014 0:46:46 GMT -5
I later felt a prompting to leave the work, in the midst of a hell I was going through, in regard to the expected celibacy. Alan, do you think this would be the main reason folks leave the work? Would allowing married workers be a realistic solution to that problem? I really donʻt know, beyond citing the more obvious "cases," in which worker(s) have been known to leave the work to marry, and of course the more clandestine occurrences that have come to light. I am really more interested in speaking of individual experience and gaining understanding of myself and others, than in attempting to "fix" the fellowship. I have no animosity toward the fellowship, but I donʻt see Jesusʻ work as trying to patch up anything (old garments, wineskins). I hope I donʻt sound sarcastic or anything, but I just find myself totally uninterested in it . .
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Post by fixit on Jul 15, 2014 1:05:25 GMT -5
Alan, do you think this would be the main reason folks leave the work? Would allowing married workers be a realistic solution to that problem? I really donʻt know, beyond citing the more obvious "cases," in which worker(s) have been known to leave the work to marry, and of course the more clandestine occurrences that have come to light. I am really more interested in speaking of individual experience and gaining understanding of myself and others, than in attempting to "fix" the fellowship. I have no animosity toward the fellowship, but I donʻt see Jesusʻ work as trying to patch up anything (old garments, wineskins). I hope I donʻt sound sarcastic or anything, but I just find myself totally uninterested in it . . That makes sense, now that you no longer have a vested interest in it. Unfortunately those who could fix it are unwilling to do so.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 15, 2014 1:19:22 GMT -5
I really donʻt know, beyond citing the more obvious "cases," in which worker(s) have been known to leave the work to marry, and of course the more clandestine occurrences that have come to light. I am really more interested in speaking of individual experience and gaining understanding of myself and others, than in attempting to "fix" the fellowship. I have no animosity toward the fellowship, but I donʻt see Jesusʻ work as trying to patch up anything (old garments, wineskins). I hope I donʻt sound sarcastic or anything, but I just find myself totally uninterested in it . . That makes sense, now that you no longer have a vested interest in it. Unfortunately those who could fix it are unwilling to do so. Well, though I feel individuals should address hurts and such, and Godʻs work in the biblical record has been toward community, I donʻt see the "fixing" of any existing institution as being particularly relevant. This is related to what I speak of in the thread, and a different understanding of Jesus - which includes his work, "salvation," "the church," etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 14:58:04 GMT -5
What Hat I don’t think you answered any of those questions. Can you outline any of the things the ‘mind of God’ said to you during your dialogue with it through prayer, contemplation, worship, social intercourse (I’m relieved you said ‘social’) or discussion, and how you can be certain it was the 'mind of God' that was the source of those things and not your own mind? Matt10 Sometimes you may think of something that happened to you in the past, a positive or negative experience, and thinking about that experience rekindles an emotion in your mind. That emotion is like the emotion when you originally went through the experience, and yet, the emotion and the memory of the experience are all inside your mind, even though the original source was something that happened in the past. As humans we have this ability to relive, or to experience vicariously, things that happened to us a long time ago, or even things that have never happened, that we just imagine. Thus the "conversation with God" is all inside your mind, and yet it's not, because God is a construction of something you believe is outside your mind, out there somewhere. Does that make any sense? As to the content of the conversation ... problems, feelings, thoughts. It's a genuine conversation. Singing a hymn is a conversation; so is communal prayer. WhatHat, again you haven't really answered the question but what you say about your conversation with God certainly does make sense. I have come to the conclusion that conversations with God take place within the individual rather than with some external entity. It is a dialogue between the individual and the ‘mind of God’ .... where the ‘mind of God’ is an entity which exists within the individual having been created as a result of the individual gaining an understanding of God (or what they believe to be God) through external experiences. It’s an internal dialogue. Most people on this Board’s understanding of God (or what they recognise as God) was formed through their experience of what is written in the Bible and reinforced (and strongly influenced) through hymn singing, prayer, meditation and further reading of the bible through their association with the 2x2 church. This understanding is the basis on which the individual forms his/her own version of God (or mind of God) within his/her own mind. Those who believe in God often refer to how real God is to them and how certain they are of His existence; this is consistent with a God which exists within rather than without, and perhaps also helps explain why those who do not believe in such a God struggle so much to accept the existence and reality of such a God. So yes, it makes sense. Very much. Matt10
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 15, 2014 18:43:52 GMT -5
Yes, but again like WH, you don't appear to have answered the questions. What people believe is a lot less interesting to me than why they believe what they believe, or why they don't believe what other people believe. Perhaps you can clarify: What do you mean by the term 'mind of God'? What is it that has persuaded you to 'believe in a mind of God'? Do you believe that the 'mind of God' is a theoretical concept only or does it exist in practice, i.e. outside of the mind of man and of the bible? Matt10 Okay, Matt, I'll give it a try, as I think I now understand what you're asking . . . and those are good questions! First, I don't see God as a being "out there somewhere," comparable, though even infinitely superior to, us. I relate to Tillich's understanding of God as the "ground of all being," that is also greater than we, and leading into a future. "Mind" is probably metaphoric, since God is not something we can really grasp or describe, but it does speak to me of intelligence, knowing, planning . . . Modern use speaks of "universe," or of something that is the sum of the cosmos, including humanity. I see something that includes this, but is yet greater than and "above" (not spatially, but metaphorically), and that does have awareness. As far as God "planning," I don't intend that to mean that every move and thought is known ahead, but more like there is an intended direction or destiny, while allowing us freedom to choose, and using our choices toward the greater intention. I think this has more or less answered questions 1 and 3. As far as what has persuaded me, this goes back to my earlier comments on the God of history. The biblical story slowly builds a witness with individuals and among a community, and I feel like it is my response to gradually larger "promptings" that has led to belief. I see this not so much as "belief in God," but rather "believing God." A prompting and response, and it leads somewhere desirable, it opens up my thinking, changes my interaction with others . . . Some of the "promptings" for me, which have of course also had elements of others' expectations (I don't see these as mutually exclusive) have been: A feeling that I should go ahead and be baptized (by a worker), even when I felt so greatly that I didn't have a clue what it was all about. It is still a meaningful touchpoint for me, to the extent that I told a church I joined later that I would not be willing to join if they required a baptism in that church. A prompting regarding the work, which I had earlier known I would have to think about someday. This occurred the day before I began my junior year in high school, and I fought it for a few weeks. Of course, knowing I would need to finish school, I didn't immediately offer, and nearly a year after graduating, I was waiting for another "prompting," then felt very strongly, "Well, God told you once, and he hasn't changed his mind!" I wrote a letter then. I later felt a prompting to leave the work, in the midst of a hell I was going through, in regard to the expected celibacy. A few years after this, I realized that it was now the time to step aside from the fellowship. This wasn't just an easy little "okay" thing. As some on here are aware, it came after several years of what is generally called "misunderstanding," although I feel like "purposeful misrepresentation" is more accurate. It hurt, and it of course would be logical to just quit, but I did feel a reassuring "voice" (not literal) telling me it was the right step. Other "promptings" have been there too, both within and outside of the work and the fellowship. Most of these have been in more personal decisions, and often very contrary to what general advice or "common sense" would tell me. But sometimes it is also just to fit in and accept something. It's all very subjective, I am fully aware, and not easy to convince someone of it - but then, I'm not really interested in convincing anyone! It is simply how I live . . . Thank you, Alan, for your story. A few comments.
You stated that, "the the biblical story slowly builds a witness with individuals and among a community, and I feel like it is my response to gradually larger "promptings" that has led to belief."
However, isn't that how all religious beliefs begin and progress?
Does it necessarily mean that there must be a infinitely superior intelligence, knowing, planning (supernatural) "mind of God" that is in the equation, -metaphoric or otherwise?
I understand your use of "promptings," however, why must those ideas emanate from a "mind" of a supernatural being? Our own minds are quite adequate, I think to have these ideas or promptings. More than likely they are universal in just how our minds work.
It seems that from time immemorial people have built religious belief systems along the same lines and attributing those beliefs to a superior intelligence to fill in their own lack of knowledge at the time.
I'm say this based on my own experiences and the steps in my journey away from the fellowship. When I was still in high school I also felt a "prompting" to go into the work. Couldn't mine, as perhaps was also yours, been due to the idealism of most youth in that period of our lives?
I never got to being in the work, so I missed your step of leaving the work, but I also came to the time that I felt a need to leave the fellowship and it wasn't a easy step for me either.
I finally did realize along my journey, however, that the "voice" speaking to me was in my own mind which I had only projected to some higher "mind."
I'm not criticizing your post, Alan, -just attempting to tell my own story. Thank you for your own thoughts.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 15, 2014 19:34:23 GMT -5
A few comments. You stated that, " the the biblical story slowly builds a witness with individuals and among a community, and I feel like it is my response to gradually larger "promptings" that has led to belief."
However, isn't that how all religious beliefs begin and progress? Does it necessarily mean that there must be a infinitely superior intelligence, knowing, planning (supernatural) "mind of God" that is in the equation, -metaphoric or otherwise? I understand your use of "promptings," however, why must those ideas emanate from a "mind" of a supernatural being? Our own minds are quite adequate, I think to have these ideas or promptings. More than likely they are universal in just how our minds work. It seems that from time immemorial people have built religious belief systems along the same lines and attributing those beliefs to a superior intelligence to fill in their own lack of knowledge at the time. I'm say this based on my own experiences and the steps in my journey away from the fellowship. When I was still in high school I also felt a "prompting" to go into the work. Couldn't mine, as perhaps was also yours, been due to the idealism of most youth in that period of our lives? I never got to being in the work, so I missed your step of leaving the work, but I also came to the time that I felt a need to leave the fellowship and it wasn't a easy step for me either. I finally did realize along my journey, however, that the "voice" speaking to me was in my own mind which I had only projected to some higher "mind." I'm not criticizing your post, Alan, -just attempting to tell my own story. Thank you for your own thoughts. Thanks for your response . . . nothing I can argue there! The spatial language we use to speak of God is necessarily metaphorical anyway, when speaking of an infinite "ground of being." Deep, above, beside . . . basically express a human way of understanding and relating. Those theologians whom I find helpful focus on this aspect - relational - rather than on attempting to define "where" God is. And biblical narratives of relating to God are quite different than the subservience we are often taught: Arguing, pleading, angry, receiving, thankful . . . they run the gamut, like human relationships. For me, this is what Jesus taught, more cryptically in the synoptic gospels, but stated more specifically in John - "the father in me and I in the father; I in you and you in me." I think there is something to be learned through discipleship, but I would definitely stop short of saying that it can't be learned through other paths. And then Paul (at Athens?) speaking of "the god in whom we move and live." Also, many of these theologians point out that Jesus did not teach a "forever hell fire" - "eternal" speaks of quality - of life, or of suffering, which can well be because of our own choices - a "hell on earth," or "karmic" entanglement. Also, a forever, physical hell is inconsistent with a god of love, as well as with a scripture that speaks of the "redemption of creation," and not just of a few individuals who follow the rules correctly. Energetically speaking too, an infinite result of a finite "wrongdoing" simply does not happen! Anyway, things I say always have considerations like this in their background . . .
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