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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 8, 2014 22:59:42 GMT -5
' I think that is a good question, Virgo. Though I do use the word 'interpretation,' I do have reservations, as it can lead to simply using scripture in any way we like. Those I find most helpful speak of interpretation as a matter of deep intellectual engagement, but not divorced from revelation. 'Revelation' can also lead to problems, when it is seen as a one-time given. I find that revelation actually demands more of me, asking me to release all those little ideas and things that make me think I'm secure, while interpretation helps me to understand just what this means in my generation. But, I think I do understand your concern, in that it becomes too easy to just allow deeply meaningful teachings to simply align themselves with mainstream culture. Am I making any sense? yes you make sense but don't you think there is a very real danger in that? we know what God thinks of man's intelligence and plainly shows He doesn't regard man's thoughts in any way Peters revelation of Jesus was from God and that is how it should and can only be, to even allow our own reasoning to try to interpret Gods word will only lead into a maze thus the state of religion today Two questions: Do you know anyone (personally) anyone who had a revelation from God? If so, why do you believe it was a revelation from God? Serious questions.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 23:00:19 GMT -5
so in other words God has been cut out of the loop? after all He is the giver of all interpretation that has to do with the Kingdom, or is man now saying this is how we interpret it and you have to accept that? I guess what comes to mind for me any time someone says this is why do you feel that the only 'revelations' that are acceptable happened 1500 to 2000+ years ago? Do you really think that God just quit talking? Why would he do that? Why wouldn't he try to help out with each age, rewording or perhaps even revealing more, to meet the needs of a new and different time? i know God has not stopped talking but man is not listening Gods word is perfect and is set it cannot be changed even though man has tried down through the ages, he has come up with his own interpretations
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 23:02:33 GMT -5
God the Father of Jesus Christ and that is the problem, God has told us very plainy that we are to worship Him not the god that suits us the reason that the god of Abraham is hardly recognizable compared to the god of modern Christians is because he is not the God of Abraham but the god of their own choosing, the God of Abraham is very reconizable to those whom He will show Himself to no i don't but i would change you to He has......... Sorry, I don't know what you are trying to say here. Simply put, I suspect you believe that "your" god is the same entity as Abraham's God. true
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 8, 2014 23:04:19 GMT -5
Sorry, I don't know what you are trying to say here. Simply put, I suspect you believe that "your" god is the same entity as Abraham's God. true And you just said that God doesn't change.
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Post by snow on Jul 8, 2014 23:06:21 GMT -5
I guess what comes to mind for me any time someone says this is why do you feel that the only 'revelations' that are acceptable happened 1500 to 2000+ years ago? Do you really think that God just quit talking? Why would he do that? Why wouldn't he try to help out with each age, rewording or perhaps even revealing more, to meet the needs of a new and different time? i know God has not stopped talking but man is not listening Gods word is perfect and is set it cannot be changed even though man has tried down through the ages, he has come up with his own interpretations Surely someone somewhere is listening! Also, how do you know for sure that God wouldn't change things to meet the needs of each generation? Not the basics, but the understanding as we grow and learn things. You do realize that the bible reflects the beliefs of people of that time and we now can disprove much of what they believed. That is what I am talking about. As we live and learn new things, don't you think God would reveal more based on our ability to understand more?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 23:06:29 GMT -5
yes you make sense but don't you think there is a very real danger in that? we know what God thinks of man's intelligence and plainly shows He doesn't regard man's thoughts in any way Peters revelation of Jesus was from God and that is how it should and can only be, to even allow our own reasoning to try to interpret Gods word will only lead into a maze thus the state of religion today Two questions: Do you know anyone (personally) anyone who had a revelation from God? If so, why do you believe it was a revelation from God? Serious questions. yes me, those throughout the Bible who did those who i meet with because they agree with the Holy Spirit which is given to those whom God has choosen to give it to
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 23:07:06 GMT -5
And you just said that God doesn't change. that is true
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 8, 2014 23:07:32 GMT -5
Two questions: Do you know anyone (personally) anyone who had a revelation from God? If so, why do you believe it was a revelation from God? Serious questions. yes me, those throughout the Bible who did those who i meet with because they agree with the Holy Spirit which is given to those whom God has choosen to give it to So what did God reveal to you?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 23:11:42 GMT -5
i know God has not stopped talking but man is not listening Gods word is perfect and is set it cannot be changed even though man has tried down through the ages, he has come up with his own interpretations Surely someone somewhere is listening! Also, how do you know for sure that God wouldn't change things to meet the needs of each generation? Not the basics, but the understanding as we grow and learn things. You do realize that the bible reflects the beliefs of people of that time and we now can disprove much of what they believed. That is what I am talking about. As we live and learn new things, don't you think God would reveal more based on our ability to understand more? why should He? His word is good for all time it has nothing to do with any ability that man has, He has given His word through His Son once and for all nothing needs to be changed, it is full and perfect nothing can be or will be added to it to suit what man thinks
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 23:13:33 GMT -5
yes me, those throughout the Bible who did those who i meet with because they agree with the Holy Spirit which is given to those whom God has choosen to give it to So what did God reveal to you? my condition before Him
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 8, 2014 23:15:08 GMT -5
So what did God reveal to you? my condition before Him That's not a revelation. You've been told that all your life. Revelations are things others don't know and can't tell you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 23:20:47 GMT -5
That's not a revelation. You've been told that all your life. Revelations are things others don't know and can't tell you. so how do you tell it was not God who revealled my condition before Him, and who told me my condition before God? that is true until others tell you of such Peter told Jesus who revealed to him who Jesus was and he told Him
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 8, 2014 23:26:10 GMT -5
That's not a revelation. You've been told that all your life. Revelations are things others don't know and can't tell you. so how do you tell it was not God who revealled my condition before Him, and who told me my condition before God? that is true until others tell you of such Peter told Jesus who revealed to him who Jesus was and he told Him Have you ever been to 2x2 meetings and conventions?
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Post by snow on Jul 8, 2014 23:32:26 GMT -5
Surely someone somewhere is listening! Also, how do you know for sure that God wouldn't change things to meet the needs of each generation? Not the basics, but the understanding as we grow and learn things. You do realize that the bible reflects the beliefs of people of that time and we now can disprove much of what they believed. That is what I am talking about. As we live and learn new things, don't you think God would reveal more based on our ability to understand more? why should He? His word is good for all time it has nothing to do with any ability that man has, He has given His word through His Son once and for all nothing needs to be changed, it is full and perfect nothing can be or will be added to it to suit what man thinks So you say. But how can you know this is really true? How do you know it isn't just something some man has said, saying it was God saying it? God never wrote the bible, a man did, so we just have to take that man's word for it that he isn't just saying what 'he' thinks and it has nothing to do with God.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 23:35:24 GMT -5
so how do you tell it was not God who revealled my condition before Him, and who told me my condition before God? that is true until others tell you of such Peter told Jesus who revealed to him who Jesus was and he told Him Have you ever been to 2x2 meetings and conventions? yes and am
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 23:37:59 GMT -5
why should He? His word is good for all time it has nothing to do with any ability that man has, He has given His word through His Son once and for all nothing needs to be changed, it is full and perfect nothing can be or will be added to it to suit what man thinks So you say. But how can you know this is really true? How do you know it isn't just something some man has said, saying it was God saying it? God never wrote the bible, a man did, so we just have to take that man's word for it that he isn't just saying what 'he' thinks and it has nothing to do with God. God did write the Bible but it was into mens hearts, they put on paper Pauls letters being a good example all scripture is inspired by God
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 8, 2014 23:43:52 GMT -5
So you say. But how can you know this is really true? How do you know it isn't just something some man has said, saying it was God saying it? God never wrote the bible, a man did, so we just have to take that man's word for it that he isn't just saying what 'he' thinks and it has nothing to do with God. God did write the Bible but it was into mens hearts, they put on paper Pauls letters being a good example all scripture is inspired by God Virgo which version of the Bible did God write ? The King James ? So what happened to the other 14 books ?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 8, 2014 23:45:34 GMT -5
I would counter the view that Marcus Borg's views represent an emerging understanding of Jesus. There have been a number of people over the years who have denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus and denounced many of the core beliefs of Christianity. There is not a lot new about Marcus' beliefs except some tailoring to the particular society or culture we live in. His views tend to get a bit of carriage in a couple of churches who embrace more liberal theology but for some reason churches which embrace liberal theology tend to decline at a fairly rapid rate. I don't think Marcus Borg, John Spong or John Crossan would get much of a run in the 2x2's - whilst many workers may not believe in the Trinity, as I understand their doctrine I think they pretty much universally believe that Jesus is divine and they believe in His bodily resurrection. What churches are those, Ross?
Do you have statistics that show those churches which embrace liberal theology tend to decline?
What I observe in my own area are the older more main line churches which believe that Jesus is divine and believe in His bodily resurrection are the ones having to give up their churches because of lack of membership.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 8, 2014 23:46:22 GMT -5
Have you ever been to 2x2 meetings and conventions? yes and am And you've never heard anyone say what your condition was before God? Since you apparently are professing, I think what happened was that you decided to believe what you'd been listening to, and called it a revelation. I happens a lot to little kids after a few spankings. It happens a lot to grown men when they discover the consequences for their crimes. It's called "learning the lesson". Has god ever told you anything that no one else knew?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 8, 2014 23:47:19 GMT -5
So you say. But how can you know this is really true? How do you know it isn't just something some man has said, saying it was God saying it? God never wrote the bible, a man did, so we just have to take that man's word for it that he isn't just saying what 'he' thinks and it has nothing to do with God. God did write the Bible but it was into mens hearts, they put on paper Pauls letters being a good example all scripture is inspired by God Someone told you that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 0:43:40 GMT -5
God did write the Bible but it was into mens hearts, they put on paper Pauls letters being a good example all scripture is inspired by God Virgo which version of the Bible did God write ? The King James ? So what happened to the other 14 books ? i did write that is was into mens hearts just in case you missed that
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 9, 2014 1:02:39 GMT -5
Virgo which version of the Bible did God write ? The King James ? So what happened to the other 14 books ? i did write that is was into mens hearts just in case you missed that Yes, you did. And someone told you that too.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 9, 2014 1:26:40 GMT -5
Virgo which version of the Bible did God write ? The King James ? So what happened to the other 14 books ? i did write that is was into mens hearts just in case you missed that When did God put the Bible into men's hearts, virgo? Was it written there at their, and your, birth? If not at birth, then when? I suppose that you will say when they got a "revelation" from him. But what brought about this "revelation"? Did it just come out of the blue sky one day or did someone (worker, etc.) tell you something? If you didn't hear it from someone or read it somewhere, where did it come from?
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jul 9, 2014 2:20:55 GMT -5
It depends which god you're talking about. People have always worshiped the god that served them best. Christians who believe they worship the god of Abraham will, of course, object to that statement, because they believe they are indeed worshiping the same god. However, the god of Abraham is hardly recognizable compared to the god of modern Christians. So you can call it a different god, or a new interpretation of an old god. Either way, the idea that "god never changes" is a bit of a fantasy. Re: "is man now saying this is how we interpret it and you have to accept that"... Do you see anything wrong with that statement? God the Father of Jesus Christ and that is the problem, God has told us very plainy that we are to worship Him not the god that suits us the reason that the god of Abraham is hardly recognizable compared to the god of modern Christians is because he is not the God of Abraham but the god of their own choosing, the God of Abraham is very reconizable to those whom He will show Himself to no i don't but i would change you to He has......... I would say of course there is a danger! God has allowed humanity free choice, and we can always make a poor choice. And yes, we can become too impressed with our own intellectual abilities - there is always a "demonic" danger inherent in even revelation. Why do you feel that God has no regard for our intellect? Paul and other scriptural writers were taking very definite theological positions in their writing, choosing what they felt was important to present from Jesus' words and actions, and then interpreting it for the Hebrew or Christian communities of their time. Deuteronomy refers to a re-telling, and there is very obvious re-interpretation in this and many other Old Testament books. I believe it is man's own fear of encountering the danger that drives him to claim an "absolute" revelation, given one time and meaning the same thing for all time and people. The God of Abraham told him to "come out from his people" - a move from everything that he knew as safe and secure - and that is the same call we can receive today. I don't see revelation as a "never changing truth" that God hands down, but God moving a person to take a stand - like Luther's words, "at the one little point where the battle rages." It does not tell people to go out and believe some absurd thing that contradicts our experience, but it does affect choices.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 5:18:55 GMT -5
so how do you tell it was not God who revealled my condition before Him, and who told me my condition before God? that is true until others tell you of such Peter told Jesus who revealed to him who Jesus was and he told Him Have you ever been to 2x2 meetings and conventions? an answer to my questions would be nice
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Post by rational on Jul 9, 2014 6:51:18 GMT -5
so in other words God has been cut out of the loop? after all He is the giver of all interpretation that has to do with the Kingdom, or is man now saying this is how we interpret it and you have to accept that? I guess what comes to mind for me any time someone says this is why do you feel that the only 'revelations' that are acceptable happened 1500 to 2000+ years ago? Do you really think that God just quit talking? Why would he do that? Why wouldn't he try to help out with each age, rewording or perhaps even revealing more, to meet the needs of a new and different time? Do the revelations from god change over time? On the other hand why would god write/cause to be written a text that is not crystal clear in it's meaning? Although it is probably convenient to construct your own metaphors to support your belief(s) rather than have to stick to the written text.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 7:04:46 GMT -5
Yes, much of it isn't really new. What I meant by "emerging view" is that the view is emerging as a more common way to look at Christianity and I will address your correct observation that liberal churches tend to decline in membership, and the reason for it. It's true that as people make the transition from fundamentalism into institutional liberal Christianity, many don't stop the journey there and end up as unaffiliated Christians. It's practically inevitable, as institutional Christianity continues its meltdown. To see that as an emerging trend, just pick any advanced country with a Christian heritage and look at the statistics: unaffiliated numbers are 'way up and some studies indicate it is the journey from fundamentalism to liberalism, then out the door and into the real world. People are finding nonsensical and untenable ideas in fundamentalism and start the process toward liberalism to try to continue to find meaning, then end up largely out of church altogether. In some ways that's a good thing and rather than indicates the failure of liberal Christianity, it is highlighting the success of liberal Christianity. Let's face it, the essence of Christ is so simple and simply engaged in our lives that we hardly need to spend a large portion of our lives immobilized in a church pew listening to either theologies or metaphorical ideas which make simple principles that we already know into complicated ones. I know quite a few people who have gone that full journey: they tend to be younger, are cultural Christians, may attend a church occasionally (often to give their kids some exposure) and otherwise lead a good Christ-based life. At some point, this will be the norm and reflects liberal Christianity which is far more concerned about a sound life on earth than in fantastic theologies and heaven/hell. The real challenge for the next generation will be to how to infuse the "Christ-mind" into the world. It looks like traditional church is not going to be the way to do it. The flow is away from the institutions and may never reverse. FYI, the most liberal church in our area is an Anglican Church which at first surprised me as I had always stereotyped Anglicanism as very close to Catholicism. Exactly Ross and also the way I see it and what I was trying to convey. The charges of heresy against the 2x2's on the divinity question are false charges. They may not embrace the whole trinity concept but in the big picture, they are pretty much mainstream on it. A person could talk trinity ideas in fellowship meeting every Sunday and bother no one unless they started using the extra-biblical terminology. In this part of the world evangelical, reformed churches growing quite well. I wouldn't call them fundamentalist at all but they are definitely not liberal in their teaching. They uphold mainstream/core Christian theology, are very conservative (but in a loving way) in their stance on moral issues as the Bible teaches and hold engaging contemporary worship services. Of course, within these churches you can have services that have the same Bible teaching but are more liturgical and conservative in their type of worship and they decline because people prefer more uplifting and engaging worship styles - people simply move services. Their beliefs haven't changed but they have a choice of service so they move to one that is more engaging. You mention the most liberal church in your area being an Anglican church. That wouldn't surprise me. The Anglican church is pretty much split throughout the world and you will find that those who practise liberal theology are essentially not in fellowship with those who follow evangelical/reformed theology. That's why GAFCON (Global Anglican Future) was formed. Many liberal Anglican churches are dying but the evangelical/reformed churches are growing rapidly (particularly in Africa). Locally, Moore College (evangelical Bible College in Sydney) continues at full capacity putting out a large number of graduates and the SMBC (Sydney Missionary and Bible College) is also putting out lots of graduates. I don't really know how one measures the success of liberal theology. There are plenty of churches that practice it but numbers quickly decline. As indicated in other posts, these churches often become focussed on a particular issue or put social justice ahead of the gospel. There is often a focus on Christian values over faith and the values are often determined by current secular thinking. On the 2x2 front they do view Jesus as divine - there is little doubt about that. Before I left I talked about my emerging understanding of Jesus at the time - that He was God the Son and God the Son. The Head Worker was in the meeting and spoke immediately after me and rebuked me and stated clearly that Jesus was not God. I asked him afterwards about a number of verses but it was made very clear that you don't ask questions. Mind you it was a difficult meeting - 90% of the people in the meeting used "you" and "your" instead of "thee" and "Thou". In his testimony he rebuked the whole meeting for speaking to God as if we were speaking to our neighbour...so there were obviously a few things that were troubling him that day. Someone else talked to him later about personal pronouns in the Hebrew and Greek but they came away with the view that he thought the Bible was originally written in English. I suppose there will always be some particular growth in church attendance somewhere but in Australia, the statistics show a rapid overall decline. Currently, it is understood that only 8% of Aussies are regular attenders (at least once/month) so if there is growth anywhere, it is growing from a small base to start with and it is taking the numbers from a shrinking pool. When we are looking at the 8% of the population attending church, the growth of any particular church would be statistically insignificant. One interesting statistic below is that of that 8% of regular attendees, less than half of those find church attendance personally beneficial even though by far most feel the church is beneficial to the community. So it would appear that only about 3-4% of Aussies find church attendance personally beneficial. This is probably the bottom line as to why church attendance has collapsed and unaffiliated Christians has skyrocketed. Here is a longer picture as to the decline of church attendance and indicates the massive shift going on in the Aussie public away from Christian institutions: And here you see the huge growth of "unaffiliated" Christians in spite of the fact that 61% of Aussies still identify themselves as Christian. This emergent shift toward unaffiliated is very visible in Australia.
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Post by ellie on Jul 9, 2014 7:54:40 GMT -5
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