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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 1:28:30 GMT -5
Katie's son Jason has arrived for a short visit from New Zealand, (His PHD Instructor wife's homeland, and their current place of residence for a couple of years before returning to the USA.) He and she have gone to visit Katie's mother one last visit before we head north. So, to save on expense and further time commitment I have chosen to remain behind, spending these couple of nights alone at the house in Dickinson. Much work left here before next Sat. AM!
Anyway, trying to escape my usual companion of pain, I have been thinking about all the bad press my God often gets from people finding it difficult to believe He even exists. In particular regarding those who are dead to Him, electing not to accept what He has planned for mankind's redemption as a whole. I love my children, even as I loved Ylva, their mother, as beings very dear to me. Yet, when Ylva died, we all had to care for her remains, we could not keep her with us in that dead state.
Why then, do people find it so difficult to accept that being dead to the things of His eternal realm, people must simply be put away? A local locksmith in The SW Washington State area advertises, "we make keys for everything except heaven and hell, those you make for yourself." The God I worship and serve accepts the choice people make regarding those keys. He does not sentence those innocent and ignorant to suffer as those with huge regrets, for knowing, facing instruction, but refusing Him as one, who, stands at the door of human hearts begging entrance to them as abiding places in life. Called mansions in that Father's house, bringing the gift of everlasting life with Him upon entry and welcome to come in and abide with them forever.
Then my God is faulted for what people know as "evil" from the Old Testament, when He had to deal with corruption of our very species, by one (or more) of the Spirits created to serve humanity, but for jealousy of them and the place God has planned in store for them, sought to destroy that very means. How? By corrupting the seed of the woman to eliminate any possibility for a kinsman redeemer after the concept of such from that very O.T. How unrighteous of a Righteous God...UNLESS there are things of this sort unknown to doubting humanity refusing to think outside their "box" even today.
Much much easier for people to just dismiss the very concept of God and any existence of such a singular Spirit Being, existing as Will, Word, and Power becoming defined by the human mind as a "Godhead" of Father, Son and Holy Ghost or Spirit. Along with that it becomes even easier to just dismiss further conceptualization of a Whole complete Human Being as humanity's substitute both in righteousness and in payment for personal sin, and yet, even the simplest of human minds can and frequently do, accept such "good news," inviting that Being into their hearts, minds, and being.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jun 22, 2014 10:17:36 GMT -5
Dennis, God is like any other personality, if you focus on the bad side of a person you will come to dislike him; if you focus on his good side, you will come to like him. There is nothing mysterious about this.
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Post by snow on Jun 22, 2014 10:59:34 GMT -5
Dennis, God is like any other personality, if you focus on the bad side of a person you will come to dislike him; if you focus on his good side, you will come to like him. There is nothing mysterious about this. However, when we talk about God, is he supposed to have a 'bad side'?
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Post by matisse on Jun 22, 2014 12:20:41 GMT -5
Seems entirely human to me, including the propensity to truly believe one has "evidence" of special status compared to others, along with a companion belief that those who hold a conflicting/threatening POV are somehow "unwilling," "unworthy," "blind," "shut out," "dead..."
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Post by faune on Jun 22, 2014 12:43:59 GMT -5
Seems entirely human to me, including the propensity to truly believe one has "evidence" of special status compared to others, along with a companion belief that those who hold a conflicting/threatening POV are somehow "unwilling," "unworthy," "blind," "shut out," "dead..." Matisse ~ I have to admit that religion does generate those feelings you describe above. Also, religions are based on man's conceptions of God's character, so it stands to reason that human traits would be subscribed to a supernatural being to make it easier for mankind to relate to him. In addition, it appears that religions were formed to help explain what they don't understand about the universe ~ somewhat like a god of the gaps? In summary, religion serves a purpose in man's life by giving him boundaries and a feeling of acceptance among those who share like beliefs. Unfortunately, they have also contributed to strife and divisions based upon a feeling of exclusivity.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 13:28:00 GMT -5
Dennis, God is like any other personality, if you focus on the bad side of a person you will come to dislike him; if you focus on his good side, you will come to like him. There is nothing mysterious about this. However, when we talk about God, is he supposed to have a 'bad side'? It seems to me that Gods do not generally have bad sides. At least not in the eyes of the believer. The believer always seems swift to give God the praise for the good things that happen in life but either ignores the bad things or puts such bad things down to part of some great plan devised by God which, inevitably, no one ever seems to understand. I’ve long since come to the conclusion that good things happen to us and bad things happen to us and such happenings have nothing whatsoever to do with the interference of any biblical or Christian Gods. Time and chance happen to all men irrespective of whether they believe in any God or gods. I do wonder sometimes if the God which Dennis believes in, and seems to promote the existence of, is the same God who permitted him to be indoctrinated for the first 45 years of his life into the 2x2 belief system and appears to have stood idly by while he was deceived into becoming part of a 2x2 ministry which he now refers to as a cult and a dangerous one at that. I wonder is this the same God who allowed him to invest years of his life participating in what he calls the wicked deception of others, some of whom may still be deceived to this very day as a result of his personal participation in this deception. I suspect that it is but would surely hope that it isn't. Matt10
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Post by faune on Jun 22, 2014 14:03:45 GMT -5
Matt 10 ~ Actually, the God of the Old Testament did appear to become unhinged quite easily and his judgments seemed rather severe for the crime of disobedience or not following the rules exactly as spelled out by him in ancient times. However, Jesus came on the seen in the New Testament and was the exact opposite in his disposition within the Gospel accounts; but, by the time you get to Revelation, he turns back into this God of wrath again? To say the least, the picture we are presented of God within the Bible does come across as being a bit fickle on more than one occasion and would lead one to presume that man had a lot more to do with the creation of God's image? O_oHowever, that still does not rule out the existence of a Creator God behind the universe and life as we know it, IMHO.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 14:29:10 GMT -5
Quote Matt10WELL!
First of all, let's discuss Dennis in the third person, reducing him to a non-entity by discussing him so. That is a neat way to discredit someone, Matt10.
Next, let's consider Dennis as someone who must be the dumbest person on earth, giving him no credit for having considered the contents of this quoted paragraph, further discrediting him and anything he may have to offer. However, how about this scenario?
That God is not Allah who forces everyone into doing HIS will, Matt10. That seems to be the notion you have of Him, by what you have written. 'S ok, because you do not know Him, neither! Covering up that viewpoint by using the word "permitted" is, in my opinion, another lack of perception of what has really happened. I, and I alone allowed (permitted) that to happen to me. NOT my God who chose to work in and through such things to reveal Himself to me, making many efforts to try to get me to understand as I denied Him many times He would have had me make other choices, and sounder decisions
Furthermore, if you read my posts, I have expressed regret at such decisions of mine and their effect upon others that took me far from the God who has revealed Himself to me despite the poor quality of those decisions. If my God whom I "promote" were as Allah, then, yes I could agree with your libel/slander of Him. Nonetheless, to me, He simply is not as Allah (il allah).
But then, my intellect in your apparent opinion of me is so low, I could never have considered such points as you attempt to spin regarding my God (or the one, I, as you say, "promote."
As to the possibility of still being deceived, that naturally is true, and one I have considered long and carefully. However, once things began to happen far beyond any logical explanation for them, as many of the experiences I have related, there is only proof opposite for me, rather than further deceptions. I promote no brand/branch of belief in God except what I have experienced and make every attempt to relate those experiences to all, including non-believers like you. Do I expect anyone to modify their beliefs because of my experience? No, rather suggest anyone wondering about them merely turn and inquire of such a Being to help them see the possibility of my reality actually being true.
Will someone fully convinced such a God cannot exist ever do that? Somehow I really doubt that ever happening without something drastic occurring in their life... What will it take? I have no idea, absolutely none.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 22, 2014 15:13:30 GMT -5
Seems entirely human to me, including the propensity to truly believe one has "evidence" of special status compared to others, along with a companion belief that those who hold a conflicting/threatening POV are somehow "unwilling," "unworthy," "blind," "shut out," "dead..." Yes, We can see the human traits working in our world. Therefore, it seems quite natural that when humans create gods that is the only way we would know how to describe them is by those human traits we see in the world around us.
We couldn't describe gods except by what we know about humans.
That is the reason for the duality in a god, the "good" side and the "bad" side in the OT of both the "Lord God" and "Satan."
The "Lord God," is of course, is a reflection of the perfect side of themselves! "Satan," is the reflection of the evil side of themselves.
Since they really do want the "good" side of themselves to win over the "bad," it also comes naturally to believe the Lord God is the one with supreme power over the other one, Satan!
Supreme or not, the Lord God and Satan are constantly competing for their Souls!
Humans have made themselves a constant battlefield where the two forces compete.
It is hardly any wonder that there is such dissonance in their lives that they feel they must constantly appease and petition the "good side," - the Lord God
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 22, 2014 15:50:56 GMT -5
However, when we talk about God, is he supposed to have a 'bad side'? It seems to me that Gods do not generally have bad sides. At least not in the eyes of the believer. The believer always seems swift to give God the praise for the good things that happen in life but either ignores the bad things or puts such bad things down to part of some great plan devised by God which, inevitably, no one ever seems to understand. I’ve long since come to the conclusion that good things happen to us and bad things happen to us and such happenings have nothing whatsoever to do with the interference of any biblical or Christian Gods. Time and chance happen to all men irrespective of whether they believe in any God or gods. I do wonder sometimes if the God which Dennis believes in, and seems to promote the existence of, is the same God who permitted him to be indoctrinated for the first 45 years of his life into the 2x2 belief system and appears to have stood idly by while he was deceived into becoming part of a 2x2 ministry which he now refers to as a cult and a dangerous one at that. I wonder is this the same God who allowed him to invest years of his life participating in what he calls the wicked deception of others, some of whom may still be deceived to this very day as a result of his personal participation in this deception. I suspect that it is but would surely hope that it isn't. Matt10 It is interesting that one gives God praise when it appears their god answered their prayers, but lets Him off the hook when He doesn't answer their prayers!
When he doesn't answer their prayers they rationalize that His NOT answering was the best for them and He knew what was best or it was not in accordance with his plan for their lives etc. ..ad infinitum.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 22, 2014 16:33:26 GMT -5
Seems entirely human to me, including the propensity to truly believe one has "evidence" of special status compared to others, along with a companion belief that those who hold a conflicting/threatening POV are somehow "unwilling," "unworthy," "blind," "shut out," "dead..." True. One has not proven that his evidence is "proof" until he has shown all his evidence to be reliable and all opposing evidence to be unreliable.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 22, 2014 16:38:02 GMT -5
However, when we talk about God, is he supposed to have a 'bad side'? It seems to me that Gods do not generally have bad sides. At least not in the eyes of the believer. The believer always seems swift to give God the praise for the good things that happen in life but either ignores the bad things or puts such bad things down to part of some great plan devised by God which, inevitably, no one ever seems to understand. I’ve long since come to the conclusion that good things happen to us and bad things happen to us and such happenings have nothing whatsoever to do with the interference of any biblical or Christian Gods. Time and chance happen to all men irrespective of whether they believe in any God or gods. I do wonder sometimes if the God which Dennis believes in, and seems to promote the existence of, is the same God who permitted him to be indoctrinated for the first 45 years of his life into the 2x2 belief system and appears to have stood idly by while he was deceived into becoming part of a 2x2 ministry which he now refers to as a cult and a dangerous one at that. I wonder is this the same God who allowed him to invest years of his life participating in what he calls the wicked deception of others, some of whom may still be deceived to this very day as a result of his personal participation in this deception. I suspect that it is but would surely hope that it isn't. Matt10 The god of the OT is most certainly not always "good", unless you consider his bouts of rage against the innocent to be a "good" thing. But people who believe in gods (singular or plural) are not commonly known to believe they are all good. Mankind has always feared gods -- hence the never ending efforts to appease their anger.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 22, 2014 16:40:25 GMT -5
It seems to me that Gods do not generally have bad sides. At least not in the eyes of the believer. The believer always seems swift to give God the praise for the good things that happen in life but either ignores the bad things or puts such bad things down to part of some great plan devised by God which, inevitably, no one ever seems to understand. I’ve long since come to the conclusion that good things happen to us and bad things happen to us and such happenings have nothing whatsoever to do with the interference of any biblical or Christian Gods. Time and chance happen to all men irrespective of whether they believe in any God or gods. I do wonder sometimes if the God which Dennis believes in, and seems to promote the existence of, is the same God who permitted him to be indoctrinated for the first 45 years of his life into the 2x2 belief system and appears to have stood idly by while he was deceived into becoming part of a 2x2 ministry which he now refers to as a cult and a dangerous one at that. I wonder is this the same God who allowed him to invest years of his life participating in what he calls the wicked deception of others, some of whom may still be deceived to this very day as a result of his personal participation in this deception. I suspect that it is but would surely hope that it isn't. Matt10 It is interesting that one gives God praise when it appears their god answered their prayers, but lets Him off the hook when He doesn't answer their prayers!
When he doesn't answer their prayers they rationalize that His NOT answering was the best for them and He knew what was best or it was not in accordance with his plan for their lives etc. ..ad infinitum.
That's the problem of having only one god. He has to be all good, so one has to excuse his inabilities as being one's own sinfulness.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 16:44:55 GMT -5
Quote Matt10WELL!
First of all, let's discuss Dennis in the third person, reducing him to a non-entity by discussing him so. That is a neat way to discredit someone, Matt10.
Next, let's consider Dennis as someone who must be the dumbest person on earth, giving him no credit for having considered the contents of this quoted paragraph, further discrediting him and anything he may have to offer. However, how about this scenario?
That God is not Allah who forces everyone into doing HIS will, Matt10. That seems to be the notion you have of Him, by what you have written. 'S ok, because you do not know Him, neither! Covering up that viewpoint by using the word "permitted" is, in my opinion, another lack of perception of what has really happened. I, and I alone allowed (permitted) that to happen to me. NOT my God who chose to work in and through such things to reveal Himself to me, making many efforts to try to get me to understand as I denied Him many times He would have had me make other choices, and sounder decisions
Furthermore, if you read my posts, I have expressed regret at such decisions of mine and their effect upon others that took me far from the God who has revealed Himself to me despite the poor quality of those decisions. If my God whom I "promote" were as Allah, then, yes I could agree with your libel/slander of Him. Nonetheless, to me, He simply is not as Allah (il allah).
But then, my intellect in your apparent opinion of me is so low, I could never have considered such points as you attempt to spin regarding my God (or the one, I, as you say, "promote."
As to the possibility of still being deceived, that naturally is true, and one I have considered long and carefully. However, once things began to happen far beyond any logical explanation for them, as many of the experiences I have related, there is only proof opposite for me, rather than further deceptions. I promote no brand/branch of belief in God except what I have experienced and make every attempt to relate those experiences to all, including non-believers like you. Do I expect anyone to modify their beliefs because of my experience? No, rather suggest anyone wondering about them merely turn and inquire of such a Being to help them see the possibility of my reality actually being true.
Will someone fully convinced such a God cannot exist ever do that? Somehow I really doubt that ever happening without something drastic occurring in their life... What will it take? I have no idea, absolutely none. Dennis, A few points if I may; 1. I made no comment on your intellect and would do no such thing. 2. If one posts on a public forum it is not unreasonable for other members to comment upon what they have posted in a response to a third party, particularly to illustrate a point. This happens frequently. Any interpretation of such an act as reducing the poster to a ‘non-entity’ is your interpretation and, in my opinion, an absurd one. 3. The term I used was ‘seems to promote’’. It may not be your intention to promote the existence of your God but on the basis of what you have posted it does seem that way - at least to me. 4. I don’t think it is possible to libel or slander a god. 5. I have limited understanding of Allah or indeed most of the other non-Christian gods. 6. I don’t dispute your experiences or the reality of your belief; it is your interpretation of these in respect of which I hold a different view. I think it is important that people reading here, particularly young people who may be having doubts about their 2x2 beliefs, are exposed to different opinions and interpretations to help them in their search for truth. I trust that you don’t have any issue with anyone posting opposing views to those posted by you. Regards Matt10
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 22, 2014 16:56:39 GMT -5
Folks: For what it's worth, "allah" is the Arab word for the God of the OT. All Arab speaking Christians worship "allah". You should visit a Christian service conducted in Arabic if you want to know something about Allah.
Unfortunately, referring to Allah as a "different" god is either because of (1) ignorance or (2) ethnic/religious prejudice.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 17:16:15 GMT -5
Folks: For what it's worth, "allah" is the Arab word for the God of the OT. All Arab speaking Christians worship "allah". You should visit a Christian service conducted in Arabic if you want to know something about Allah. Unfortunately, referring to Allah as a "different" god is either because of (1) ignorance or (2) ethnic/religious prejudice. Allah may well be the term used by Arab Christians but in the main (and clearly in the context used previously) it is the term used by Muslims to refer to the God of Islam. In this context, Allah and the Christian God are clearly entirely different gods. For a start, the Christian God has a son named Jesus who died and was raised from the dead while Allah (The God of Islam) most definitely doesn’t. I could go on. Consequently there is no religious prejudice or ignorance at work here I’m afraid. Fortunately. Matt10
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Post by xna on Jun 22, 2014 17:30:24 GMT -5
Folks: For what it's worth, "allah" is the Arab word for the God of the OT. All Arab speaking Christians worship "allah". You should visit a Christian service conducted in Arabic if you want to know something about Allah. Unfortunately, referring to Allah as a "different" god is either because of (1) ignorance or (2) ethnic/religious prejudice. Allah may well be the term used by Arab Christians but in the main (and clearly in the context used previously) it is the term used by Muslims to refer to the God of Islam. In this context, Allah and the Christian God are clearly entirely different gods. For a start, the Christian God has a son named Jesus who died and was raised from the dead while Allah (The God of Islam) most definitely doesn’t. I could go on. Consequently there is no religious prejudice or ignorance at work here I’m afraid. Fortunately. Matt10 It seems to me in monotheism, your god is the one true real GOD. Those other religions gods are either; false gods, or imaginary gods.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 22, 2014 18:17:14 GMT -5
Folks: For what it's worth, "allah" is the Arab word for the God of the OT. All Arab speaking Christians worship "allah". You should visit a Christian service conducted in Arabic if you want to know something about Allah. Unfortunately, referring to Allah as a "different" god is either because of (1) ignorance or (2) ethnic/religious prejudice. Allah may well be the term used by Arab Christians but in the main (and clearly in the context used previously) it is the term used by Muslims to refer to the God of Islam. In this context, Allah and the Christian God are clearly entirely different gods. For a start, the Christian God has a son named Jesus who died and was raised from the dead while Allah (The God of Islam) most definitely doesn’t. I could go on. Consequently there is no religious prejudice or ignorance at work here I’m afraid. Fortunately. Matt10 Well in that case there appears to be a bit of both going on. But you will notice I wasn't referring to the Christian god -- I was referring to the OT god. Christians think they worship him -- many of them do. Except they don't even know his name. All they can call him is god/allah/dieu/whatever. A French "maison" is always a "house" in English, whether the French and English paint their houses the same color or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 19:28:18 GMT -5
Allah may well be the term used by Arab Christians but in the main (and clearly in the context used previously) it is the term used by Muslims to refer to the God of Islam. In this context, Allah and the Christian God are clearly entirely different gods. For a start, the Christian God has a son named Jesus who died and was raised from the dead while Allah (The God of Islam) most definitely doesn’t. I could go on. Consequently there is no religious prejudice or ignorance at work here I’m afraid. Fortunately. Matt10 Well in that case there appears to be a bit of both going on. But you will notice I wasn't referring to the Christian god -- I was referring to the OT god. Christians think they worship him -- many of them do. Except they don't even know his name. All they can call him is god/allah/dieu/whatever. A French "maison" is always a "house" in English, whether the French and English paint their houses the same color or not. Bob, I'm afraid you've completely lost me there. Matt10
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Post by snow on Jun 22, 2014 21:20:16 GMT -5
Matt 10 ~ Actually, the God of the Old Testament did appear to become unhinged quite easily and his judgments seemed rather severe for the crime of disobedience or not following the rules exactly as spelled out by him in ancient times. However, Jesus came on the seen in the New Testament and was the exact opposite in his disposition within the Gospel accounts; but, by the time you get to Revelation, he turns back into this God of wrath again? To say the least, the picture we are presented of God within the Bible does come across as being a bit fickle on more than one occasion and would lead one to presume that man had a lot more to do with the creation of God's image? O_oHowever, that still does not rule out the existence of a Creator God behind the universe and life as we know it, IMHO. However, if you believe in the Trinity, then Jesus was alive and well and participating in the OT also. What does that say for him?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 22, 2014 21:25:31 GMT -5
Well in that case there appears to be a bit of both going on. But you will notice I wasn't referring to the Christian god -- I was referring to the OT god. Christians think they worship him -- many of them do. Except they don't even know his name. All they can call him is god/allah/dieu/whatever. A French "maison" is always a "house" in English, whether the French and English paint their houses the same color or not. Bob, I'm afraid you've completely lost me there. Matt10 I kind of expected that. Let's try this. There is a cake on display in the restaurant, and I want a piece of it, so the waitress says: "Here is your cake." A Mexican sitting beside me wants the same thing, so when the waitress brings it to him, she says, " Su pastel, Señor."The Mexican asks me: "Are you enjoying your pastel?" So I answer: "I don't have pastel, I have cake. Pastel is different from cake." Dumb a-s! Likewise: There is only one god, the god of Abraham. I don't know his name, but since there is only one of them, I will just worship the "God" no need for any other name. There is only one allah, the allah of Abraham. Ali doesn't know his name, but since there is only one of him, Ali will just worship the " Allah" - no need for any other name. Then Ali says to me, " Allah is great, huh?" SO I reply: "You're wrong. Allah is not great. God is great. They are NOT the same person." Dumb a-s! Mexicans speak Spanish -- what do they know about "cake"?
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Post by snow on Jun 22, 2014 21:34:15 GMT -5
However, when we talk about God, is he supposed to have a 'bad side'? It seems to me that Gods do not generally have bad sides. At least not in the eyes of the believer. The believer always seems swift to give God the praise for the good things that happen in life but either ignores the bad things or puts such bad things down to part of some great plan devised by God which, inevitably, no one ever seems to understand. I’ve long since come to the conclusion that good things happen to us and bad things happen to us and such happenings have nothing whatsoever to do with the interference of any biblical or Christian Gods. Time and chance happen to all men irrespective of whether they believe in any God or gods. I do wonder sometimes if the God which Dennis believes in, and seems to promote the existence of, is the same God who permitted him to be indoctrinated for the first 45 years of his life into the 2x2 belief system and appears to have stood idly by while he was deceived into becoming part of a 2x2 ministry which he now refers to as a cult and a dangerous one at that. I wonder is this the same God who allowed him to invest years of his life participating in what he calls the wicked deception of others, some of whom may still be deceived to this very day as a result of his personal participation in this deception. I suspect that it is but would surely hope that it isn't. Matt10 Matt10 I would guess that if you only believe in one god then that god could not have a 'bad side'. All credit would be given to that god when things go right and all things that go bad are because of the person and their free will messing things up. As dmg states, all prayers that don't come true are just god knowing better and not granting such and such for a very good reason. I tend to disagree with all this and feel credit should go to humans who help other humans and not god when I see nothing of his help in it at all. But that's just me I guess.
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Post by rational on Jul 18, 2014 15:30:11 GMT -5
Will someone fully convinced such a God cannot exist ever do that? Somehow I really doubt that ever happening without something drastic occurring in their life... What will it take? I have no idea, absolutely none. Why would you think that something good or bad happening would suddenly make anyone believe in a paranormal being? It would be like me assuming you would suddenly believe in the Woodpecker of Goodwill just because something drastic happened in your life.
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