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Post by What Hat on Jun 21, 2014 9:18:23 GMT -5
What right do they have to do that though? They are not the judges. If someone professed in their meeting they have a right to speak in the Sunday morning meetings or any meetings that the F&W hold. If they believe they are the only way to salvation, then they are condemning people to hell by kicking them out of the organization. At least that is how they would see it, that they were no longer saved. Although I think the problem is with the latter, not the former. If they had said we're just another church, then asking someone not to come is easier to justify. Of course, I believe they are just another church, so, in my view, I don't have much problem with them asking someone to not attend, provided the reasons are sound, and provided the issue is handled with empathy, and people are given multiple chances. In all of which the workers can be faulted. I just don't want to blame them for the wrong reasons. That is, they do have a right to control who attends their church.
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Post by snow on Jun 21, 2014 10:35:21 GMT -5
So in effect, damning one to save the many? Ok. I do see it btw, I just think it's a power abuse considering what they believe about their 'way'. But I also see that they don't like disruption, new ideas or the chance that he may influence others to think 'falsely' too. Close, but not quite. From their point of view, they aren't damning Brandon at all. They would see it as him damning himself. After all, he heard "the truth" for years and chose to accept false doctrine. He would be welcomed back anytime if he accepted "the truth" again. Kind of like the justification about God not damning us to hell, but us damning ourselves to hell?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 10:49:15 GMT -5
Close, but not quite. From their point of view, they aren't damning Brandon at all. They would see it as him damning himself. After all, he heard "the truth" for years and chose to accept false doctrine. He would be welcomed back anytime if he accepted "the truth" again. Kind of like the justification about God not damning us to hell, but us damning ourselves to hell? Pretty much. The idea is that you choose the path to hell and God confirms it in the Judgement. As far as I know, there are no concepts floating around that God arbitrarily condemns people. I think most believers see God as perfectly just at worst, and very merciful and compassionate at best.
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Post by snow on Jun 21, 2014 11:36:06 GMT -5
Kind of like the justification about God not damning us to hell, but us damning ourselves to hell? Pretty much. The idea is that you choose the path to hell and God confirms it in the Judgement. As far as I know, there are no concepts floating around that God arbitrarily condemns people. I think most believers see God as perfectly just at worst, and very merciful and compassionate at best. I think the more 'strict and by the book' Christians believe in just 'justice'. That god has to damn us to hell because that's what we want. We have chosen to not love him so how could we be happy in heaven is another justification for hell I have heard. After all he loves us and just wants us to get what we want. Twisted thinking imo.
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Post by faune on Jun 21, 2014 11:45:37 GMT -5
In Australia it is illegal to stop someone from coming to a church gathering, regardless of whether or not it's in a private home. We were told not to go to fellowship by John. Head worker of Vic. My husband was from outside and had been divorced 10 years previously. He wanted to profess. We were shut out for 9 years. We had to sell our home and leave the state. Another girl married a man not professing and she was cut off from fellowship completely as well. A man from here was kicked out because he was going out with a catholic girl they wouldn't let her profess so he married in the Catholic Church and the professing relies stood outside and wouldn't go in. That must have been a spectacle. He is a doctor and since had two men coming to him for help because the workers sleeping with their wives. They can and they do shut people out - just the wrong ones. They chase us out and keep the creepy ones. They weren't going to let us near the Ivanhoe church in Vic with the super rich and ruffle any feathers there. Heavenhelpus ~ It sounds like some things within the 2x2's never change, especially the shunning practices and workers making mountains out of molehills! Bottom line seems to be that the workers do whatever they please and you just have to put up with their nonsense or leave for higher ground. JMT
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Post by fixit on Jun 21, 2014 19:14:54 GMT -5
In Australia it is illegal to stop someone from coming to a church gathering, regardless of whether or not it's in a private home. We were told not to go to fellowship by John. Head worker of Vic. My husband was from outside and had been divorced 10 years previously. He wanted to profess. We were shut out for 9 years. We had to sell our home and leave the state. Another girl married a man not professing and she was cut off from fellowship completely as well. A man from here was kicked out because he was going out with a catholic girl they wouldn't let her profess so he married in the Catholic Church and the professing relies stood outside and wouldn't go in. That must have been a spectacle. He is a doctor and since had two men coming to him for help because the workers sleeping with their wives. They can and they do shut people out - just the wrong ones. They chase us out and keep the creepy ones. They weren't going to let us near the Ivanhoe church in Vic with the super rich and ruffle any feathers there. Sad, but I think you're right about the Victoria/Tasmania ministry.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2014 16:28:33 GMT -5
I forgot to say the family of the man from a Canberra. The mum and dad and brothers and sisters were all kicked out with the guy who married the catholic girl. We are friends with his dad's brother . They gave anyone related a terrible time. I am sure there are many stories like this.
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Post by fixit on Jun 22, 2014 17:54:47 GMT -5
I forgot to say the family of the man from a Canberra. The mum and dad and brothers and sisters were all kicked out with the guy who married the catholic girl. We are friends with his dad's brother . They gave anyone related a terrible time. I am sure there are many stories like this. Was that the family from Launceston?
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Post by Persona non grata on Jun 23, 2014 13:29:45 GMT -5
We were told not to go to fellowship by John. Head worker of Vic. My husband was from outside and had been divorced 10 years previously. He wanted to profess. We were shut out for 9 years. We had to sell our home and leave the state. Another girl married a man not professing and she was cut off from fellowship completely as well. A man from here was kicked out because he was going out with a catholic girl they wouldn't let her profess so he married in the Catholic Church and the professing relies stood outside and wouldn't go in. That must have been a spectacle. He is a doctor and since had two men coming to him for help because the workers sleeping with their wives. They can and they do shut people out - just the wrong ones. They chase us out and keep the creepy ones. They weren't going to let us near the Ivanhoe church in Vic with the super rich and ruffle any feathers there. I'm not quite sure where this practice by the Australian overseers originated but it certainly wasn't from a Christ-like heart.
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Post by mdm on Jul 3, 2014 2:49:59 GMT -5
I wish I had taped our last talk with the workers. It is not just what they said it is the clinical indifference they had to people being hurt and it was purely a business transaction in the offer for me to be quiet about the problems. Some friends would be shocked how little the workers really felt about them. More needs to be put onto utube. It doesn't feel good doing it - I thought about it. Afterwards I knew it would have been the most sensible thing to do. I regret not doing it myself. Be prepared before you have the talk it's no good wishing you had it in place afterwards. Also if you have families you can share the whole experience - especially if there is any nastiness that won't be admitted afterwards. There is always something wrong with you if you are the victim. Prove them wrong let them show themselves up, a picture is worth a thousand words here. Also if the workers know if you are in the right and they are in the wrong. They will quote scripture and dodge around the issue like a pro. I said I was telling the truth and could look them in the eye I expected them to do the same. It worked. They stopped the bs. Its just a little advice for those thinking of leaving the meeting particularly over an issue. It's back up for you even if you don't use it. It's helpful for your families. It can't be twisted or changed. It will show up who is bitter and nasty and has the wrong spirit. Two workers who don't know each other (one US, one European) have advised us to never talk to an overseer (about controversial issues) without a "faithful witness." The purpose of advise was to protect ourselves from being "found outside alone and deserted by all and even worst as a misunderstood." Obviously, that is not an issue if one is going to leave the group anyway. Do you think that family members would even consent to view such a video? I don't have professing family, but from all I've seen it seems that those who vest their salvation in belonging to the 2x2 church are not eager to know, dwell on or remember any evidence against the workers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 11:34:25 GMT -5
I don't know about family members looking at the tapes. I think curiosity gets the better of most people. I was thinking of the people I came to meetings with I really rattled them talking about William Irvine. I completely believed he started it. It makes sense. They rattled me because they hadn't looked into it. I know a group of young German friends came to my friend who was in the work with a big wad of things off the internet. Chris just laughed and said it wasn't true. But I was with her when we looked into it and we didn't look too deeply. Both our families are not professing and we're on at us about the secret sect. We had a guilty sneak peek just to say we had seen it to get them off our backs.
A good documentary video with letters and photos and comparisons of church and meetings needs to be put onto You Tube. Dates , foundation rules and things that were covered up by the original workers. It needs to be done in an educational way. Not emotional. Another girlfriend was hysterical when I phoned her but she was mad when I told her I could take the emblems. She had been sitting quiet in the meetings for about 30 years. It's very demeaning.
I can't make this video, I haven't got access to the resources and we are thinking about moving . I am losing interest in it altogether now and my husband doesn't want anything to do with it all now. We have moved on. I have been very glad of these forums. They are a good idea . It has been a great help in the transition you feel confused and lost for the start. I have got through all the things that have been worrying me for years by putting it down here so finally I can lay it to rest.
Anyway I thank those who have written to us, and been super encouraging and understanding. We are going in a few weeks. So I might pop back on here occasionally but I hope we are on our way to a new and better life now and this chapter is over for good. Bye:) xx
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 18:57:06 GMT -5
It is not imaginary. The brother of our friend is in Tasmania. Someone picked that up they must know them. I don't want names because it's not my story but I am friends with his brother. I think the actual wedding happened here in Canberra. They were going to meetings here at the time. It is all true which is why I left the meetings. I am sorry penguin but there has been a lot of bad things happened over the years. My neighbours wanted to come to meetings last year but I looked at all the people I care about and something really bad has happened to all of them through the meetings and I couldn't do it. I asked the workers to clean up some of the messes and they admitted it was wrong but they wouldn't get involved so we left and I warned my neighbours off. I dont want them hurt too. I am not making stuff up. I am just getting it out of my system I am really angry with the workers . I told you it was Trevor And Beverly Loechels brother who had their kids taken off them. They were the last straw for me. It sickens me and makes me furious. Especially with the Holier than thou crap on top of it. I have not put anything on these forums that I don't know as an absolute fact. This has all been happening over a long time. The forty years I was professing. Of course I have heard other things but these are people I know closely and had a lot to do with. I stayed in Trevor's brothers home quite often and the kids would scramble into my bed in the morning. So I cried when I heard how he hurt them. It breaks my heart all these kids that have been hurt. I was kicked out by my own patents at 15 for going to the meetings and a lot of people opened their homes to me and the main ones I stayed close to over the years have been badly hurt by the workers but still go. The smirky one won't be so smug now he has the police questioning him. I used to think it didn't matter it is all in Gods hands but know I know it does matter and not so blasé and more than a bit horrified. Glad to have got my own child away from them and he has heard and seen enough not to go near it.
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Post by mdm on Jul 15, 2014 3:43:20 GMT -5
Heavenhelpus said "A man from here was kicked out because he was going out with a catholic girl they wouldn't let her profess so he married in the Catholic Church and the professing relatives stood outside and wouldn't go in. That must have been a spectacle. He is a doctor and since had two men coming to him for help because the workers sleeping with their wives. " That is fairly explosive stuff. I wonder if there is truth to it and how long ago etc and whether there was any follow through? I also heard a story along the lines: "I married someone divorced but he has professed, I can't take part yet he can, he had been divorced 10 years before we met. Now I sit in a meeting with a child molester who takes part and just smirks at me like the worker I professed through molested the two littlest girls in the family and the brother of the other worker has molested and had his kids taken away." Again, explosive stuff if true but rubbish if only imaginary. Our professing friends from Australia have shared similar stories with us. Also, if an Australian worker has been expelled from the work for disagreeing with how CSA issues are handled by the ministry, do we need say any more? Perhaps the rest of the professing world is not in better shape either from what I've heard from concerned friends and workers in Europe and US. But it's possible that a lot of people are not aware of what all goes on, or at least refuse to connect the dots and admit that there is a pattern, or at least openly. Here is an example: when Scottish overseer was removed from his position several years ago, our Scottish friends complained about it to us, saying that the English are meddling in their affairs, and that they were going to find out why that happened. A year later, we asked about it, and they denied there was a problem, and wouldn't talk about it. Well, recently, we found out that the overseer in question had refused to remove from the work a CSA offender, so other overseers demoted him. Also, that there was a lot of opposition in the ministry against this demotion and even dealing with CSA offenders. Similarly, a US overseer told us personally that he had received a lot of flack from other workers for dealing with a CSA offender. But, back to Scotland - why did our friends deny there was ever a problem? Because they had found out the truth and as others followed the doctrine of "covering up" and that "the truth" can destroy the Truth? This is why so many are secretive - but the more you know, and the more you talk to people about these things, the more you find out.
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Post by penguin on Jul 15, 2014 4:42:45 GMT -5
I dont know much about the European problem in Scotland, which happened 2 or 3 years ago, but we did hear the overseer at the time did not have enough reasons to believe a certain worker was guilty of the allegations. However there was enough pressure on neighbouring countries to hold a barrack room court, consider the worker in question was guilty and tell that overseer to step down if he didn't dismiss the other one. Maybe your sources denying there was ever a problem are also people who have come round to the opinion that the allegations were false or unfair. Else of course they toe the party line
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 5:05:11 GMT -5
Maja, as with many other things, the more one becomes deeper involved the more corruption found. A quarter of a century ago much was hidden, and those knowing people, facts, and details were simply disposed of by the easiest and most convient means possible, with those unbelieving such things could even exist becoming useful pawns in the hands of those using them and their lack of awareness to hide and cover corruption of all sorts.
Never mind the sorrow, grief, and anguish to any innocent people so used. How well some of us know and have experienced first hand, frequently hotly denied by group functionaries of all sorts. Much easier to simply deny, cover up, and follow the party line, which often frequently still happens.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 15, 2014 20:27:42 GMT -5
Have to agree with you Ross 100% ! They just want to keep pretending it isn't happening, or cover it up, makes you wonder when or if they will ever do something about it.
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Post by snow on Jul 15, 2014 21:13:46 GMT -5
Have to agree with you Ross 100% ! They just want to keep pretending it isn't happening, or cover it up, makes you wonder when or if they will ever do something about it. Only when it impacts them so much they have to. Which really is ironic. The only true way, the most godly of all the godly don't have enough moral fortitude to do something about it because it's wrong, but rather because it impacts them in a negative way. Isn't that the definition of a sociopath? The only regret is that they get caught?
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Post by fixit on Jul 16, 2014 0:51:06 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Jul 16, 2014 2:17:19 GMT -5
It is not imaginary. The brother of our friend is in Tasmania. Someone picked that up they must know them. I don't want names because it's not my story but I am friends with his brother. I think the actual wedding happened here in Canberra. They were going to meetings here at the time. It is all true which is why I left the meetings. I am sorry penguin but there has been a lot of bad things happened over the years. My neighbours wanted to come to meetings last year but I looked at all the people I care about and something really bad has happened to all of them through the meetings and I couldn't do it. I asked the workers to clean up some of the messes and they admitted it was wrong but they wouldn't get involved so we left and I warned my neighbours off. I dont want them hurt too. I am not making stuff up. I am just getting it out of my system I am really angry with the workers . I told you it was Trevor And Beverly Loechels brother who had their kids taken off them. They were the last straw for me. It sickens me and makes me furious. Especially with the Holier than thou crap on top of it. I have not put anything on these forums that I don't know as an absolute fact. This has all been happening over a long time. The forty years I was professing. Of course I have heard other things but these are people I know closely and had a lot to do with. I stayed in Trevor's brothers home quite often and the kids would scramble into my bed in the morning. So I cried when I heard how he hurt them. It breaks my heart all these kids that have been hurt. I was kicked out by my own patents at 15 for going to the meetings and a lot of people opened their homes to me and the main ones I stayed close to over the years have been badly hurt by the workers but still go. The smirky one won't be so smug now he has the police questioning him. I used to think it didn't matter it is all in Gods hands but know I know it does matter and not so blasé and more than a bit horrified. Glad to have got my own child away from them and he has heard and seen enough not to go near it. It sickens me and it would sicken most friends and workers I think. Unfortunately, most don't know about the evil that lurks in their midst. Please keep talking about it as much as you can, because it has to be brought into the light so it can be dealt with.
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Post by faune on Jul 16, 2014 2:24:45 GMT -5
In Australia it is illegal to stop someone from coming to a church gathering, regardless of whether or not it's in a private home. We were told not to go to fellowship by John. Head worker of Vic. My husband was from outside and had been divorced 10 years previously. He wanted to profess. We were shut out for 9 years. We had to sell our home and leave the state. Another girl married a man not professing and she was cut off from fellowship completely as well. A man from here was kicked out because he was going out with a catholic girl they wouldn't let her profess so he married in the Catholic Church and the professing relies stood outside and wouldn't go in. That must have been a spectacle. He is a doctor and since had two men coming to him for help because the workers sleeping with their wives. They can and they do shut people out - just the wrong ones. They chase us out and keep the creepy ones. They weren't going to let us near the Ivanhoe church in Vic with the super rich and ruffle any feathers there. Heavenhelpus ~ Was this man dating the Catholic gal a psychiatrist or professional counselor? You mentioned that two of the men came to him for help because the workers were sleeping with their wives. It reminds me so much of an old saying by Sir Walter Scott, "Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."
www.ask.com/question/oh-what-a-tangled-web-we-weave-when-first-we-practice-to-deceive
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Post by fixit on Jul 16, 2014 2:29:30 GMT -5
I am not talking about putting rude things on Facebook - I don't have one. But some things like workers attacking young girls and calling them evil and of the devil I find outrageous that sort of horrible bullying needs to be exposed. Brandon's private life is his private life. Most People only see the stilted polite facade put on by the workers. The last meeting we had Robert had an honest talk about the things that are wrong. He kept saying what I was saying was right and he wished the elder worker was there, he even wrote to him but the Elder worker NSW couldn't be bothered . Even though they said I was right they weren't prepared to fix it. Some of the workers know there are some serious flaws and don't agree with the way things are run but they won't stick their neck out. I was thinking using media and Seeing a senior worker sitting there saying things are wrong and speaking openly and honestly would make people question and maybe not put up with so much rubbish. Put it into perspective - it's not all about the "spirit" and airy fairy stuff. The way is not perfect and God is not in control it's people controlling this. See some behind the scenes stuff instead of seeing the stage. This is not about bitterness - it is about showing the organisation as it is. I agree - God is clearly no more in control of sexual abusers in the fellowship than anywhere else. Expecting God to fix something that man has broken is a cop out. The Australian overseers prefer to punish young people for marrying non-professing spouses than deal with this great evil that is child sexual abuse. They'd rather expel someone from the work for exposing his colleagues, than deal with child sexual abuse in their ranks. Steve Shultz .. fallout?David Leitch and Moral Clarity
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Post by snow on Jul 16, 2014 10:38:51 GMT -5
fixit, while they may have some guidelines in place, has there really been much change overall? Don't they still try to quiet the allegations and blame the victim?
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