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Post by matisse on Jun 9, 2014 8:36:25 GMT -5
Quote - " It seems a little strange that God would create a person to be attracted to another person, then kill them when they are actually attracted to them. Sounds not only a bit harsh, but it makes him look like an incompetent creator who has no compassion for those he kills because of his own choice. If anyone should be punished for incompetent creating, it should be God. The truth is, God doesn't kill those whom he created, man makes the judgement to kill or punish them, and blames it on God." You could say the same for adultery - why would God tempt a man with another woman? Or why would God give humans a nature of hate or greed, then punish them for practicing it? The bible says we are given a human body to live in. And we are subjected to these human passions, " For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope."Nothing in nature has been left to the discretion and planning of the human mind. Everything instinct of man is necessary for his survival as a species, otherwise the species would not have continued. It is not by any accident that human kind have the sexual appetites they have -- as far as nature is concerned our sexual nature is no less critical than our need for air, food, and water. I wonder sometimes if the instincts that were important for the eventual appearance of the species and its perpetuation to the present day, are all still useful for the survival of the species going forward. Today's tribes have the possibility of lobbing nuclear warheads at each other. Regarding human sexual nature, if one looks at the primates humans are most closely related to, one finds a wide range of sexual practices, including homosexuality and bisexuality.
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Post by rational on Jun 9, 2014 8:54:28 GMT -5
1 Samuel 18:1-4 1 As soon as he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 2 And Saul took him that day and would not let him return to his father's house. 3 Then Jonathan made a covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul. 4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was on him and gave it to David, and his armor, and even his sword and his bow and his belt. 1 Samuel 20:40-42 40 And Jonathan gave his weapons to his boy and said to him, "Go and carry them to the city." 41 And as soon as the boy had gone, David rose from beside the stone heap and fell on his face to the ground and bowed three times. And they kissed one another and wept with one another, David weeping the most. 42 Then Jonathan said to David, "Go in peace, because we have sworn both of us in the name of the Lord, saying, 'The Lord shall be between me and you, and between my offspring and your offspring, forever.'" And he rose and departed, and Jonathan went into the city. 2 Samuel 1:25-27 25 "How the mighty have fallen in the midst of the battle! "Jonathan lies slain on your high places. 26 I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was extraordinary, surpassing the love of women. ☆Arwen☆ I don't think the love between Jonathan and David was sexuaal love, do you? Why not?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 9, 2014 9:14:58 GMT -5
Matt10, I have always used the bible as my moral guide, because the fear was put into me that it is "Gods word to live by!" I am slowly but surely seeing otherwise. I believe in God our creator, but losing faith in the bible as it portrays God! Way too many contradictions etc too. It is a tough road to haul as we know what was ingrained in our brains for sooooo long! The bible is filled with absurdity and evil acts for sure...I feel like I will be struck by lightening by saying that, but it is true. -ph- It’s interesting to note how great a role fear plays in keeping people bound to the beliefs they were taught as children. And not only within 2x2ism. The reassuring thing is that your fear of being struck by lightning is not a real fear; it only exists as a result of your belief in the Bible. As one’s belief in the Bible diminishes so the fear of being struck by lightning diminishes as well. Similarly with the fear of the Biblical hell - when I was a believer I feared being cast into the Biblical hell if I dared cease believing - however as my belief in the Bible diminished so did my fear of the Biblical hell to the point where it has ceased being an issue at all. Ceasing to believe in the literalness of the Bible is liberating. Of course I think it is possible to continue to believe in a creator God without believing in the Bible. The Bible creates its own version of God and a particularly nasty one in parts. So much so that it now seems incomprehensible to me that the God of the Bible is an accurate portrayal of God. Indeed I have come to believe that belief in the Bible actually prevents us in reaching an understanding of the true nature of God. Those who believe in the Bible cannot seem to see beyond the God which the Bible portrays to the point where their entire understanding of God appears limited to the sometimes evil, often contradictory and frequently absurd version of God portrayed by the Bible. If the Bible consisted only of the words of Jesus I could live with that as a moral guide; but it doesn’t. Those ancient men with their ancient ways could not resist creating a version of God which reflected their own values and belief systems. It is therefore liberating when one realises that we no longer need to be bound by the laws and prejudices and peculiar customs of men whose main preoccupation in life appears to have been sheep slaughtering. Matt10 I think anyone would fear being struck by lightening! Regardless of the reason. Had an uncle who was an irrigation ditch rider supervisor...one day he knew one of his workers was out another direction and a heavy rainstorm was coming in so he went the opposite direction to open one of the gates on the ditch so there would be no flash flooding....as he stepped down into the ditch or close thereby to be able to reach the release of the gate he was struck by lightening.....it burned several toes off and hit his heart and nearly killed him...seems when he fell he hit his chest just right to have regained his heart beat...much like a pre-cordial thump.....but an incidental one. He was in intensive care for weeks...he had to have skin grafts over several body areas...seems where any metals were is where the burns were the worst...like where his walkie-talkie radio was and his hand tools he carried in his loops on his pants etc.....years later he ended up with melanoma cancer in one of the burned areas on his neck and made us all wonder, but it seems it was just coincidental. So yes, all of us that knew about the lightening strike on him are fearful of the lightening. I know a family who lost nearly a whole herd of cattle because they'd gathered under a tree or a couple of trees that is and the lightening forked and hit both trees and met in the middle...kind of like a double whammy on those cattle in that pathway....Another family was out walking on Sun. the females had taken the younger children and run on to the house, the men never came in, so it was that the oldest boy had run from that group to the barn and then went to the house. His mom asked him if he knew where the men and 1 boy was, he said yes and she asked him to go check on them. He went and found all 3 dead under a tree that had been hit by lightening! He was only 7 y/o I think! So being struck by lightening IS a fearful thing!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 9, 2014 9:24:23 GMT -5
Yes, I learned about bisexual persons the day my stepfather blew his own brains out.....there was handwritten tales of his and my brothers many love fests. And you still think homosexual attraction is a choice? I have never heard of people blowing their brains out because they can no longer hide their heterosexuality. Perhaps the orientation for sex is not a choice, but what we do about it is! I mean even for heterosexuals they can choose to be into that or they can get into all kinds of sexual deviations just to satisfy curiosity, etc I've known of homosexuals who have not subscribed to being active homosexuals and that was their choice. So all our action really come down to what we choose to do about things....... And no, I don't suppose people shoot themselves for being heterosexually active, but perhaps jealousy over their lover is just as bad or worse then homosexuals feel and thus they do shoot themselves. It probably is more about someone who doesn't feel their choice in life has been as satisfying as they thought it to be.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 9, 2014 9:31:09 GMT -5
1 Samuel 18:1-4 1 As soon as he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 2 And Saul took him that day and would not let him return to his father's house. 3 Then Jonathan made a covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul. 4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was on him and gave it to David, and his armor, and even his sword and his bow and his belt. 1 Samuel 20:40-42 40 And Jonathan gave his weapons to his boy and said to him, "Go and carry them to the city." 41 And as soon as the boy had gone, David rose from beside the stone heap and fell on his face to the ground and bowed three times. And they kissed one another and wept with one another, David weeping the most. 42 Then Jonathan said to David, "Go in peace, because we have sworn both of us in the name of the Lord, saying, 'The Lord shall be between me and you, and between my offspring and your offspring, forever.'" And he rose and departed, and Jonathan went into the city. 2 Samuel 1:25-27 25 "How the mighty have fallen in the midst of the battle! "Jonathan lies slain on your high places. 26 I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was extraordinary, surpassing the love of women. ☆Arwen☆ Seems the bible is ambiguous about David and Jonathan's relationship...I mean look at Jonathan's words about their offspring and it looks like a man speaking to another man about the offspring that is from their individual wives. Then when David wrote that Jonathan's love was extraordinary surpassing the love of women, one wonders about the relationship. However I do know of men who's friendship with one another is something that is bound as if in stone and they stand by one another more then if they were related and even their relationship is held more sacred then their relationship with their wives and families. So again, it is merely another speculation about the homosexual relationship of whether it was there for David and Jonathan or not. I feel it wasn't a homosexual relationship, but a very firm bounded man to man relationship....just stronger then any relationship David or Jonathan had with any members of their families.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 10:04:31 GMT -5
I don't think the love between Jonathan and David was sexuaal love, do you? Why not? I loved my grandpa more than anyone i have ever met, i've kissed him and i've wept with him, i wept at his funeral and gravesite...that doesn't make me homosexual or incestuous
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Post by rational on Jun 9, 2014 10:36:55 GMT -5
I think anyone would fear being struck by lightening! Regardless of the reason. The use of the word fear in this context could lead to confusion. I don't want to be hit by lightning because I know the results but I do not fear the event. I do not like ditch digging but I would not say I suffer from ergasiophobia. Not enjoying something and having a fear of it are two different things.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 12:44:26 GMT -5
Perhaps the orientation for sex is not a choice, but what we do about it is! I mean even for heterosexuals they can choose to be into that or they can get into all kinds of sexual deviations just to satisfy curiosity, etc I've known of homosexuals who have not subscribed to being active homosexuals and that was their choice. So all our action really come down to what we choose to do about things....... STR - are you suggesting that homosexuals can choose not to become sexually active? Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 12:49:01 GMT -5
It’s interesting to note how great a role fear plays in keeping people bound to the beliefs they were taught as children. And not only within 2x2ism. The reassuring thing is that your fear of being struck by lightning is not a real fear; it only exists as a result of your belief in the Bible. As one’s belief in the Bible diminishes so the fear of being struck by lightning diminishes as well. Similarly with the fear of the Biblical hell - when I was a believer I feared being cast into the Biblical hell if I dared cease believing - however as my belief in the Bible diminished so did my fear of the Biblical hell to the point where it has ceased being an issue at all. Ceasing to believe in the literalness of the Bible is liberating..... Matt10 I think anyone would fear being struck by lightening! Regardless of the reason. Had an uncle who was an irrigation ditch rider supervisor...one day he knew one of his workers was out another direction and a heavy rainstorm was coming in so he went the opposite direction to open one of the gates on the ditch so there would be no flash flooding....as he stepped down into the ditch or close thereby to be able to reach the release of the gate he was struck by lightening.....it burned several toes off and hit his heart and nearly killed him...seems when he fell he hit his chest just right to have regained his heart beat...much like a pre-cordial thump.....but an incidental one. He was in intensive care for weeks...he had to have skin grafts over several body areas...seems where any metals were is where the burns were the worst...like where his walkie-talkie radio was and his hand tools he carried in his loops on his pants etc.....years later he ended up with melanoma cancer in one of the burned areas on his neck and made us all wonder, but it seems it was just coincidental. So yes, all of us that knew about the lightening strike on him are fearful of the lightening. I know a family who lost nearly a whole herd of cattle because they'd gathered under a tree or a couple of trees that is and the lightening forked and hit both trees and met in the middle...kind of like a double whammy on those cattle in that pathway....Another family was out walking on Sun. the females had taken the younger children and run on to the house, the men never came in, so it was that the oldest boy had run from that group to the barn and then went to the house. His mom asked him if he knew where the men and 1 boy was, he said yes and she asked him to go check on them. He went and found all 3 dead under a tree that had been hit by lightening! He was only 7 y/o I think! So being struck by lightening IS a fearful thing! STR = Strange as it may seem my post wasn't actually about being struck by lightning but an interesting story all the same. That part of my post was about fear. Irrational fear. Irrational fear that can be overcome. Matt10
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Post by rational on Jun 9, 2014 15:19:22 GMT -5
STR = Strange as it may seem my post wasn't actually about being struck by lightning but an interesting story all the same. That part of my post was about fear. Irrational fear. Irrational fear that can be overcome. Matt10 I did, however, take exception to part of your post: The reassuring thing is that your fear of being struck by lightning is not a real fear; it only exists as a result of your belief in the Bible. As one’s belief in the Bible diminishes so the fear of being struck by lightning diminishes as well.The fear is real. I have seen people react in abject terror of the oddest things. I think what you were saying was that the basis of their fear was not real. They might get struck by lightning but the reason would be that they were part of the path of least resistance and not because they were, as Edwards put it, Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God (an uplifting and happy sermon explaining the love of god for his people). Of course, it will probably not drive the theophile to theophobia but I have observed that many theophiles are already theophobic.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 15:59:28 GMT -5
STR = Strange as it may seem my post wasn't actually about being struck by lightning but an interesting story all the same. That part of my post was about fear. Irrational fear. Irrational fear that can be overcome. Matt10 I did, however, take exception to part of your post: The reassuring thing is that your fear of being struck by lightning is not a real fear; it only exists as a result of your belief in the Bible. As one’s belief in the Bible diminishes so the fear of being struck by lightning diminishes as well.The fear is real. I have seen people react in abject terror of the oddest things. I think what you were saying was that the basis of their fear was not real. I think what you are saying about what you think I was saying is correct. Matt10
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 9, 2014 17:21:54 GMT -5
Perhaps the orientation for sex is not a choice, but what we do about it is! I mean even for heterosexuals they can choose to be into that or they can get into all kinds of sexual deviations just to satisfy curiosity, etc I've known of homosexuals who have not subscribed to being active homosexuals and that was their choice. So all our action really come down to what we choose to do about things....... STR - are you suggesting that homosexuals can choose not to become sexually active? Matt10 Not only homosexuals can choose to not become sexually active! Hetero and bi sexuals also can choose not to become active. And I guess then the next question is, is how are they going to know if they're homo, hetero or bi if they choose not to be active? I suppose it's in the attraction mostly! The mental seduction?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 17:25:44 GMT -5
Ontario brother worker David Lane was preaching about Jonathan and Saul. He said "there is nothing sensual about their relationship".
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 9, 2014 17:25:53 GMT -5
I don't know if I have abject fear of snakes, but I sure want every one of them that I see or know of to be killed! I can get pretty worked up over seeing a snake and let me have something to kill it and I'll do it even if I'm shaking all over! Part of that fear may well be because my eyesight as a child wasn't very good without me getting too close to see what things were and I knew for me to get that close to a snake and if it was a poisonous snake that I was a dead goner!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 18:21:28 GMT -5
STR - are you suggesting that homosexuals can choose not to become sexually active? Matt10 Not only homosexuals can choose to not become sexually active! Hetero and bi sexuals also can choose not to become active. Ok. Are you suggesting then that homosexuals should choose not to become sexually active? Matt10
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Post by rational on Jun 9, 2014 18:56:33 GMT -5
Not only homosexuals can choose to not become sexually active! Hetero and bi sexuals also can choose not to become active. And I guess then the next question is, is how are they going to know if they're homo, hetero or bi if they choose not to be active? Sexual acts do not determine a person's sexuality. A heterosexual male might have a sexual relation with another male but that does not make them a homosexual or a bisexual. A homosexual woman could be married and raise a family with a man but that does not make her a heterosexual.
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Post by rational on Jun 9, 2014 19:02:00 GMT -5
Ontario brother worker David Lane was preaching about Jonathan and Saul. He said "there is nothing sensual about their relationship". Has anyone suggested there was homosexual incest? I guess you could preach a lot about things that didn't happen. No sexual relationship between Peter and Paul. Aaron and Moses were just brothers no matter what anyone says.
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Post by rational on Jun 9, 2014 19:06:14 GMT -5
I loved my grandpa more than anyone i have ever met, i've kissed him and i've wept with him, i wept at his funeral and gravesite...that doesn't make me homosexual or incestuous OK. We know about your situation. Why couldn't David and Jonathan have been lovers? How you treat your relatives is one thing but how you treat non-relatives is different.
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Post by rational on Jun 9, 2014 19:15:54 GMT -5
I don't know if I have abject fear of snakes, but I sure want every one of them that I see or know of to be killed! I can get pretty worked up over seeing a snake and let me have something to kill it and I'll do it even if I'm shaking all over! Part of that fear may well be because my eyesight as a child wasn't very good without me getting too close to see what things were and I knew for me to get that close to a snake and if it was a poisonous snake that I was a dead goner! :) This fits into the irrational fear that Matt10 was mentioning. You could probably get treatment for your ophidiophobia. (Perhaps I am starting to suffer from sesquipedalianism. I wonder if there is a treatment.)
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 9, 2014 19:48:50 GMT -5
1 Samuel 18:1-4 1 As soon as he had finished speaking to Saul, the soul of Jonathan was knit to the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 2 And Saul took him that day and would not let him return to his father's house. 3 Then Jonathan made a covenant with David, because he loved him as his own soul. 4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was on him and gave it to David, and his armor, and even his sword and his bow and his belt. 1 Samuel 20:40-42 40 And Jonathan gave his weapons to his boy and said to him, "Go and carry them to the city." 41 And as soon as the boy had gone, David rose from beside the stone heap and fell on his face to the ground and bowed three times. And they kissed one another and wept with one another, David weeping the most. 42 Then Jonathan said to David, "Go in peace, because we have sworn both of us in the name of the Lord, saying, 'The Lord shall be between me and you, and between my offspring and your offspring, forever.'" And he rose and departed, and Jonathan went into the city. 2 Samuel 1:25-27 25 "How the mighty have fallen in the midst of the battle! "Jonathan lies slain on your high places. 26 I am distressed for you, my brother Jonathan; very pleasant have you been to me; your love to me was extraordinary, surpassing the love of women. ☆Arwen☆ I don't think the love between Jonathan and David was sexuaal love, do you? I take off my clothes to kiss someone, and find my love for that person surpassing a specific human sexual response. ? I think maybe George Walker and Eldon Tenniswood should have tried that one.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 9, 2014 20:31:41 GMT -5
Perhaps the orientation for sex is not a choice, but what we do about it is! What WE can do about it is accept it as a fact of life, or label people for restrictive human treatment. Unless you have a sexual attraction to a person, his/her sexual orientation is on no consequence to you personally. Of course they can. And it happens all the time. Perhaps it is the spice of live -- as they say. But that's not how a heterosexual goes about making a loving lifetime satisfying sexual relationship. I am sure you have. You probably know far more heterosexuals who have not subscribed to active heterosexuality by choice. Workers, to begin with. Exactly. The first example that comes to mind is the homosexual who "chooses" (we'll not discuss the reasons why he chooses) to do everything possible to appear heterosexual, including marrying a woman, having children, and even condemning his own (secret) sexual orientation. You've been given the same choice. Would you pair up with an individual of your own sex and live an intimate married lifestyle with that person for the rest of your life? Sounds like one simple price to pay if it was necessary to save your soul from hell ?? I think I might enjoy it for an hour or two, until the bells and whistles stopped, and then I would begin to suffer from the prospects of tolerating a lifetime of unsatisfying intimacy. Jealousy doesn't matter. There is nothing about jealousy that is specific to any sexual orientation. Of course. And that is because they were first of all taught that there was something wrong with nature God gave them. The feelings of having a wasted life, I would expect.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 9, 2014 20:33:30 GMT -5
I loved my grandpa more than anyone i have ever met, i've kissed him and i've wept with him, i wept at his funeral and gravesite...that doesn't make me homosexual or incestuous I know But did you take your clothes off for him ?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 9, 2014 20:35:10 GMT -5
Nothing in nature has been left to the discretion and planning of the human mind. Everything instinct of man is necessary for his survival as a species, otherwise the species would not have continued. It is not by any accident that human kind have the sexual appetites they have -- as far as nature is concerned our sexual nature is no less critical than our need for air, food, and water. I wonder sometimes if the instincts that were important for the eventual appearance of the species and its perpetuation to the present day, are all still useful for the survival of the species going forward. Today's tribes have the possibility of lobbing nuclear warheads at each other. Regarding human sexual nature, if one looks at the primates humans are most closely related to, one finds a wide range of sexual practices, including homosexuality and bisexuality. Homosexuality activity is commonly practiced in many species of "intelligence".
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2014 22:30:57 GMT -5
I loved my grandpa more than anyone i have ever met, i've kissed him and i've wept with him, i wept at his funeral and gravesite...that doesn't make me homosexual or incestuous I know But did you take your clothes off for him ? no but he saw me naked and i've seen him naked...
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 9, 2014 22:38:47 GMT -5
I know But did you take your clothes off for him ? no but he saw me naked and i've seen him naked... I bet you didn't kiss while you both were naked, though.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 10, 2014 8:52:39 GMT -5
I loved my grandpa more than anyone i have ever met, i've kissed him and i've wept with him, i wept at his funeral and gravesite...that doesn't make me homosexual or incestuous OK. We know about your situation. Why couldn't David and Jonathan have been lovers? How you treat your relatives is one thing but how you treat non-relatives is different. Not always is it how we treat our relatives being one thing but how we treat non-relatives is. There are siblings who start their homosexual lifestyle with their same sex siblings. There are fathers, uncles, cousins, grandfathers who enter into homosexual relations with their relatives....and of course if those relatives are not of legal age that would be considered CSA, but if of legal age it would be called consensual sex. There are just so many if's and's or but's about the whole issues of sexuality that perhaps one can't begin to cover all of them!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 10, 2014 8:55:48 GMT -5
Not only homosexuals can choose to not become sexually active! Hetero and bi sexuals also can choose not to become active. Ok. Are you suggesting then that homosexuals should choose not to become sexually active? Matt10 No, I am not suggesting any such thing. I just think sometimes people give into their lusts too quickly, maybe myself included!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 10, 2014 8:59:02 GMT -5
I don't know if I have abject fear of snakes, but I sure want every one of them that I see or know of to be killed! I can get pretty worked up over seeing a snake and let me have something to kill it and I'll do it even if I'm shaking all over! Part of that fear may well be because my eyesight as a child wasn't very good without me getting too close to see what things were and I knew for me to get that close to a snake and if it was a poisonous snake that I was a dead goner! This fits into the irrational fear that Matt10 was mentioning. You could probably get treatment for your ophidiophobia. (Perhaps I am starting to suffer from sesquipedalianism. I wonder if there is a treatment.)I have much better eyesight these days, so my actual fear of being snake bit is minimal for I can actually see them better. Although to be totally honest, I feel that any good snake is a dead snake! Just how I feel about snakes!
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