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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 7, 2014 14:59:38 GMT -5
Thanks for that,Annan! I had wanted to ask that same question! Personally, the more I study the history behind the Bible canon and how it came about in the first place, I've been made aware of how much of its contents has man's injected opinions throughout its pages, which also contributes to its many discrepancies and contradictions throughout ~ not to mention some of the O.T. practices and laws that blow the mind. If a Creator God was really behind all of these O.T. laws, I would truly wonder how you could picture him as being a loving being? Unfortunately, the picture that is portrayed turns a number of people off to God and religion altogether due to its exclusive and discriminatory nature. One thing for sure, you can see the hand of mankind in the creation of the God they desired for the occasion ~ from warrior to peacemaker and back to warrior again in Revelation.
Does the inconsistency found within its pages not cause some to wonder about some its contents and whether different opinions were written in as deemed necessary to control the masses? The subject of eternal hellfire is just one topic that comes to mind, but there are many others that challenge the mind due to mistranslations of scriptures by original Bible canon writers. Also, if the Gospel stories are for real, why all the similarities to pagan religions of the past which are truly mind blowing? Another question that comes to mind is whether the Roman Catholic Church took a historical figure like Jesus of Nazareth and turn him into a God or "deified being" in the formation of a religion known as Christianity? Bart Ehrman has written a number of books on the early days of Christianity that might be worth checking out at the library for the information they provide?
www.godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell
www.amazon.com/How-Jesus-Became-God-Exaltation/dp/0061778184?tag=533643275-20
www.amazon.com/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195182499
www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm
Thanks for these links Faune Sounds interesting.
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Post by faune on Jun 7, 2014 15:08:21 GMT -5
You may find that it all makes much more sense if you stop assuming that God has anything to do with a person’s sexuality whether it’s creating it, changing it, allowing it or frowning upon it. God really doesn’t give a hoot about a person’s sexuality. It’s only those who believe in the bible over God who seem to be peculiarly obsessed with what other people get up to in the bedroom. Why should anyone care if your next door neighbour is fornicating with the milkman in an unorthodox position or if your spinster aunt really is a lesbian providing they are all consenting adults and no one is getting hurt? My advice is to stop using the bible as your moral guide when it comes to matters of sexuality. The bible does not represent the views of God on such matters but rather the peculiar ancient laws and customs of the men who wrote it. Nature has decreed your family member’s sexuality just as nature has decreed the colour of his eyes, the length of his nose and the size of his ears. You’re not concerned that God might think his ears are too large and want him to downsize them are you? Of course not. So why on earth would God want him to change his sexuality? Remember just as there is a lot of good advice contained within the Bible, there is also a lot of complete nonsense. Be careful not to become enslaved by it in your thinking. Matt10 Matt10.... I am just speaking from the stance that we were taught in the 2x2 fellowship that the bible is God's final word and a guide for us to follow. Trying to make sense of how homosexuality is spoken of in the bible, heard workers speak on it too! That is why I said it shakes my faith! There is so much that is contradictory in the bible and stuff that just doesn't make sense to me. That is why I am losing faith in the bible being "God's final word." Does that make more sense to you? -ph- Peacefulheart ~ I share your sentiment. I feel there's a lot of good wisdom found within the Bible, but those things that go against the grain and don't make sense to us are better not taken at face value, as they probably pertain to the mentality of that time in history. Unfortunately, prejudice and exclusivity are part of the packaging within the Bible passed down to us. One thing for sure, you can find no opinion voiced by Jesus regarding the subject of homosexuality within the gospels. He discusses immorality in connection with marriage and adultery, but that's about it. However, it's actually Paul in his epistles who mentions homosexuality along with other sins he deemed unsuitable to Christ followers.
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 7, 2014 15:09:52 GMT -5
Where do I start with this? Hmmm, "The actions of the human animal alone" shakes my faith in mankind. Certain scriptures in the bible, and whether or not they are "Gods stance" on the given topic, shake my faith in religion and those that put Gods word down in writing (which ultimately is still mankind). Yes, of course I have read the Old Testament.....much of which doesn't reflect the God in the New Testament! Just another topic to explore there. Peacfulheart ~ How well I can relate to your present state of mind! However, I still believe in a Creator God over the universe and an eternal spark found within every human heart. Perhaps some of the NDE's I have read about over the years convince me of an afterlife and that's there's more to life than meets the eye? But, just perhaps, we were never met to take the Bible literally, which does contribute to a lot of the confusion between the O.T. and N.T. pictures. I believe you really do need to consider the time frame in which these things were written and the influences that were prevalent at that time? Bart Ehrman's books in relation to Christianity and religion I found most insightful these days and have learned a lot from his writings. What I do wonder about myself is if the early church took a figure from history, like Jesus of Nazareth, and made him into the Christ or promised Messiah and built stories around him from ancient folklore to support their creation? You cannot help but see this as a possibility, when you view the "lost christianities" that developed around the first century and afterwards, IMO? I too have read about NDE's...Very interesting! I agree with you on God creating the universe and the eternal spark in every human heart! I have much to read about and research that will be very interesting. Thanks
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Post by faune on Jun 7, 2014 15:18:47 GMT -5
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 7, 2014 15:18:57 GMT -5
Matt10.... I am just speaking from the stance that we were taught in the 2x2 fellowship that the bible is God's final word and a guide for us to follow. Trying to make sense of how homosexuality is spoken of in the bible, heard workers speak on it too! That is why I said it shakes my faith! There is so much that is contradictory in the bible and stuff that just doesn't make sense to me. That is why I am losing faith in the bible being "God's final word." Does that make more sense to you? -ph- Peacefulheart ~ I share your sentiment. I feel there's a lot of good wisdom found within the Bible, but those things that go against the grain and don't make sense to us are better not taken at face value, as they probably pertain to the mentality of that time in history. Unfortunately, prejudice and exclusivity are part of the packaging within the Bible passed down to us. One thing for sure, you can find no opinion voiced by Jesus regarding the subject of homosexuality within the gospels. He discusses immorality in connection with marriage and adultery, but that's about it. However, it's actually Paul in his epistles who mentions homosexuality along with other sins he deemed unsuitable to Christ followers. Yes, you are right....the things that go against the grain, not making any sense should NOT be taken at face value. Why should we follow something that is so very unclear to us? Interesting that Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuality within the gospels. And according to Paul us women all need to keep silent in the church.....hmmmm, that isn't the 2x2 way now is it? -ph-
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 7, 2014 15:20:45 GMT -5
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 7, 2014 15:53:17 GMT -5
Faune, thank you for your response! I agree with your opinion here, and have also wondered about tampering with the bible. There is a warning for a good reason about adding to or taking away from it..... because someone was sure to do it! I didn't used to give too much thought to the gay topic before my family member came out. I did wonder about it occasionally though, because I have seen VERY feminine men before and they were naturally that way, it was not for show or forced action. There clearly is so much we don't know, and not our place to judge! It's hard to be a help though when gays know that the religious world thinks they chose to be gay, how could they feel loved and accepted into God's family??? Where do they go for fellowship? Peacefulheart, just some responses to both your and faune's posts.
1. Homosexuality isn't an "abnormality." Had it been, surely modern medicine and psychological counceling would have done something to correct it by now.
The American Psychological Association statement on Homosexuality :
from wiki: "All major professional mental health organizations have gone on record to affirm that homosexuality is not a mental disorder. In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association’s Board of Trustees removed homosexuality from its official diagnostic manual, The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Second Edition (DSM II). The action was taken following a review of the scientific literature and consultation with experts in the field. The experts found that homosexuality does not meet the criteria to be considered a mental illness."
2. You ask, "Where do they go for fellowship?" Many churches accept & welcome the gay community.from wiki :"Other Christian denominations do not view monogamous same-sex relationships as sinful or immoral, and may bless such unions and consider them marriages. These include the United Church of Canada, and the United Church of Christ.,[26] all German Lutheran, reformed and united churches in EKD,[27]
all Swiss reformed churches, the Protestant Church in the Netherlands, the Church of Denmark, the Church of Sweden, the Church of Iceland and the Church of Norway. The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland also allows prayer for same-sex couples.[28] In particular, the Metropolitan Community Church was founded specifically to serve the Christian LGBT community. The Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals (GAAAP), traces its roots back to 1980, making it the oldest LGBT-affirming Apostolic Pentecostal denomination in existence.[29]
Another such organization is the Affirming Pentecostal Church International, currently the largest affirming Pentecostal organization, with churches in the US, UK, Central and South America, Europe and Africa.
dmmichgood, thankyou, I had no idea there are so many churches with open arms rather than closed hearts. Thanks for posting this. -ph-
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 16:27:34 GMT -5
I think this writer is really dancing around the subject. I certainly agree with his view on Sodom, but the truth is, right from the first laws, homosexual acts were outlawed, capital punishment if I recall, and there is no way that Paul or any other contemporary of that time would be pro-gay. The writer admits as much, at least admitting that Paul calls it "unclean". I think Paul also intimates elsewhere that gays are going to hell as well. Let's face it. Leviticus was wrong from the get-go. Paul was wrong. Pro-gay Christians can seem to find a way to work around a rejection of Leviticus, but it is rare to find someone who will affirm Paul and his words as anti-gay. He was anti-gay, and he was wrong. He was ignorant about homosexuality through no fault of his own, nobody understood and scientifically, we still don't fully understand it. At least what we do know today though that it is not a matter of a heterosexual deciding to act homosexual (except in the rarest of cases). People are born with a unique make up of sexual orientation to varying degrees on both sides of the attraction. Paul didn't know that, but we know that today. Christians will never resolve this until they are ready to recognize that Paul was wrong. However, the reason they won't be doing that anytime soon is the entrenched idea of biblical inerrancy which is much too frightening for a lot of people to reconsider as a doctrine.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 16:48:22 GMT -5
I think this writer is really dancing around the subject. I certainly agree with his view on Sodom, but the truth is, right from the first laws, homosexual acts were outlawed, capital punishment if I recall, and there is no way that Paul or any other contemporary of that time would be pro-gay. The writer admits as much, at least admitting that Paul calls it "unclean". I think Paul also intimates elsewhere that gays are going to hell as well. Let's face it. Leviticus was wrong from the get-go. Paul was wrong. Pro-gay Christians can seem to find a way to work around a rejection of Leviticus, but it is rare to find someone who will affirm Paul and his words as anti-gay. He was anti-gay, and he was wrong. He was ignorant about homosexuality through no fault of his own, nobody understood and scientifically, we still don't fully understand it. At least what we do know today though that it is not a matter of a heterosexual deciding to act homosexual (except in the rarest of cases). People are born with a unique make up of sexual orientation to varying degrees on both sides of the attraction. Paul didn't know that, but we know that today. Christians will never resolve this until they are ready to recognize that Paul was wrong. However, the reason they won't be doing that anytime soon is the entrenched idea of biblical inerrancy which is much too frightening for a lot of people to reconsider as a doctrine. i think levitcus to be a powerful message from God on do's and dont's...even the controversial things...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 17:07:10 GMT -5
I think this writer is really dancing around the subject. I certainly agree with his view on Sodom, but the truth is, right from the first laws, homosexual acts were outlawed, capital punishment if I recall, and there is no way that Paul or any other contemporary of that time would be pro-gay. The writer admits as much, at least admitting that Paul calls it "unclean". I think Paul also intimates elsewhere that gays are going to hell as well. Let's face it. Leviticus was wrong from the get-go. Paul was wrong. Pro-gay Christians can seem to find a way to work around a rejection of Leviticus, but it is rare to find someone who will affirm Paul and his words as anti-gay. He was anti-gay, and he was wrong. He was ignorant about homosexuality through no fault of his own, nobody understood and scientifically, we still don't fully understand it. At least what we do know today though that it is not a matter of a heterosexual deciding to act homosexual (except in the rarest of cases). People are born with a unique make up of sexual orientation to varying degrees on both sides of the attraction. Paul didn't know that, but we know that today. Christians will never resolve this until they are ready to recognize that Paul was wrong. However, the reason they won't be doing that anytime soon is the entrenched idea of biblical inerrancy which is much too frightening for a lot of people to reconsider as a doctrine. i think levitcus to be a powerful message from God on do's and dont's...even the controversial things... Killing gay people doesn't look really good on God.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 17:13:21 GMT -5
i think levitcus to be a powerful message from God on do's and dont's...even the controversial things... Killing gay people doesn't look really good on God. it depends if you think or NOT think that God has righteous anger and judgment over his creations...
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 7, 2014 17:52:16 GMT -5
Yet one more crazy motion by the Republican Party in their alignment with the fundamentalist Christians!
FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) — The Texas Republican Party now endorses so-called "reparative therapy" for gays under a new platform given final approval at its annual convention.
Even when the fact of such therapy has been discredited by its rampant failure, as Clearday noted in a previous post.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 17:56:44 GMT -5
You may find that it all makes much more sense if you stop assuming that God has anything to do with a person’s sexuality whether it’s creating it, changing it, allowing it or frowning upon it. God really doesn’t give a hoot about a person’s sexuality. It’s only those who believe in the bible over God who seem to be peculiarly obsessed with what other people get up to in the bedroom. Why should anyone care if your next door neighbour is fornicating with the milkman in an unorthodox position or if your spinster aunt really is a lesbian providing they are all consenting adults and no one is getting hurt? My advice is to stop using the bible as your moral guide when it comes to matters of sexuality. The bible does not represent the views of God on such matters but rather the peculiar ancient laws and customs of the men who wrote it. Nature has decreed your family member’s sexuality just as nature has decreed the colour of his eyes, the length of his nose and the size of his ears. You’re not concerned that God might think his ears are too large and want him to downsize them are you? Of course not. So why on earth would God want him to change his sexuality? Remember just as there is a lot of good advice contained within the Bible, there is also a lot of complete nonsense. Be careful not to become enslaved by it in your thinking. Matt10 Matt10.... I am just speaking from the stance that we were taught in the 2x2 fellowship that the bible is God's final word and a guide for us to follow. Trying to make sense of how homosexuality is spoken of in the bible, heard workers speak on it too! That is why I said it shakes my faith! There is so much that is contradictory in the bible and stuff that just doesn't make sense to me. That is why I am losing faith in the bible being "God's final word." Does that make more sense to you? -ph- It makes perfect sense to me that people lose faith in the bible as God's final word. I too lost faith in the bible as God's final word and for that I am very glad. For me the interesting question is why people have so much faith in the Bible? When one is taught from birth that the Bible is the word of God it is difficult to overcome such thinking. It is a very powerful influence. But of course just because you have been taught something from birth and believe it to be true doesn’t mean it actually is true at all. We were all taught that the 2x2 church was the only true church and that the 2x2 workers were God’s only true servants but these two claims have now been wholly discredited. Just because we were taught that the Bible is the final word of God doesn’t mean it’s actually true either. What you have to do is to consider such a claim with an open mind and come to your own conclusion. For me any book which suggests that if a man should sleep with another man he should be put to death, or if a man works on the Sabbath he should also be put to death, is clearly of dubious morality. So why did I ever choose such a book as my moral guide? Because I was taught from an early age that the Bible was the word of God and for twenty something years I was too afraid to challenge that. And why did you ever choose such a book as your moral guide? I’d be interested in your answer. For me, now, the Bible has little to do with God and it is certainly not his word. In my view the people who tell you that the Bible is God's word do not really believe in God; what they believe in is the Bible. The Bible is in fact their moral guide rather than God and that is why they tend to hang on its every word. Thinking about this logically leads one to the conclusion that the Bible is only the word of God if your God is actually the Bible. I like to think that God is somewhat greater than a much translated mistranslated ancient man made book. Of course reading the Bible with an open mind will lead you to the conclusion that it is filled with a fascinating mixture of wisdom and good, history and myth, evil and absurdity. Suggesting that homosexuals are put to death is a part which is evil; suggesting that anyone who works on the Sabbath should be put to death is a part which is an absurdity. Any book containing such evil and absurdity may well be a damned good read but it’s certainly not much of a moral guide for civilised people in the 21st century. Matt10
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Post by eyedeetentee on Jun 7, 2014 18:05:19 GMT -5
If you think about it, many rulers have acted like all of the above. The New World Order theorists believe that if any person or group of people says any of that, the world is doomed and coming to an end. But they discount it when they read the same words in the bible . . because it's okay when a god says it. What's the difference? A god was fabricated by a bunch of ego-maniacal kings to enslave their people. That's a pretty handy tool! Do what you want and live how you like as long as you do it according to the demands of your gov't and your god. Then all is cool. I've heard of people stealing and getting by with it 'because the lord told me to do it'. No joke. I'd bet at least one of those preachers slammed with child sex offenses believed that his god gave him those kids because of his sacrifices. People go totally wacko under the guise of religion. Religion makes people crazy . . and hateful. But it's okay because they do it for their god. Gag! Whoa there, calm down There is no problem with my post, I am simply going through a logical thought process that you and others may have already come to a conclusion on possibly ever years ago already. By the way, I like rainbows and unicorns . On a serious note, I am interested in reading the history on other religions, as I have wondered what their beliefs are exactly. So do you believe there is no heaven or hell? Jesus? Where do you think we go when our body dies? Do you believe there is or is not punishment for evil acts? Were we created by God, or did the entire universe just fall into place so intricately as it did? -ph- [/quote] I knew this would happen. I should have put "in my opinion" at the end of every sentence. Isn't that what writings are if they are not research papers? The problems with your posts - in my opinion - are . . . The problems I have with your statements are . . . One reason I quit coming here often was because everyone wants documentation on everything. No one is allowed to have an opinion. "Where did you read that? Where did you hear that? You're not capable of having these thoughts on your own, so you must have read it or heard it somewhere. Cite it." Bah. Though it may look like I write with anger or something (been accused of it many times - most recently, today in another thread), that is actually not the case. I am calm. I realize you are going through a thought process. I am telling you I have been there, gone there, and here I am. The thought process is called "Life on the outside" (don't steal that for a book or I'll sue). Some of my process started with a class called World Religions at a local community college. The process started long before that class though. It is not really difficult to imagine that this earth became as some science states. You don't need to become a biologist to learn a little bit about atoms, fungus, bacteria, and all the other neat stuff out there that forms from seemingly nothing. A little bit of knowledge will take you a long way. A little imagination might assist. (Yes, Rational, I am sure there are all kinds of things wrong with this paragraph, but as you know, I don't have to cite anything or state anything according to your science because my people, The Company, know the truth of the matter and We are not at liberty at this time to tell you squat . . . in Our opinion.)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 18:14:36 GMT -5
Killing gay people doesn't look really good on God. it depends if you think or NOT think that God has righteous anger and judgment over his creations... It seems a little strange that God would create a person to be attracted to another person, then kill them when they are actually attracted to them. Sounds not only a bit harsh, but it makes him look like an incompetent creator who has no compassion for those he kills because of his own choice. If anyone should be punished for incompetent creating, it should be God. The truth is, God doesn't kill those whom he created, man makes the judgement to kill or punish them, and blames it on God.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 7, 2014 18:15:46 GMT -5
Not necessarily "THE" thing that shook my faith, but very high on the list: There is not anything in the story of Jesus that had not already been written in earlier Pagan literature.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 7, 2014 18:20:56 GMT -5
Thanks for your input Dennis. I don't know why He would give an 8,9,10,11 year old over to that lifestyle. I just don't get it, guess we all won't understand until after we are dead. By then it won't matter anymore! -ph- I don't believe all homosexuals are born that way. Take my own grandson for example...when he was a small boy he really liked the pretty girls...Donna Fargo was his top pick of a sweety. He'd get ahold of his daddy's playboy books and look at the books and pat the women's body parts and name them with lust and joy! Even when he was in his early teens, we took him with us to a very special horse show. OUr best friends went with us as well as their daughter and her new boyfriend. The grandson fell in love with this young lady....he sat by her, he followed her all over the place, etc. You can't tell me this male child was born homosexual. Fact is he had a high school sweetheart and they wanted to get married as soon as they graduated. But their parents talked them out of it. The girl went out of state to college, the grandson went to a local community college for the first 2 years of his college courses and this is where he met up with the homosexual crowd. Why did he turn homosexual? Was it on the rebound? Or was it because his own father had given him such a horrible "male image" that the poor young man didn't want to be a c opy of his father, so he changed his orientation? I don't know. It has puzzled me, for as you have more or less implied homosexuals are born that way....but my grandson is not the first and only one that I'v eknown to change streams sometime in life. So yes, I think there are some God does give over to that lifestyle and for me to understand that is not my business, I would guess as God doesn't reveal that to me...so it's my grandson's business as well as any other homosexual's business how and where and when and why they are homosexual. They will answer for their decisions in life as well I am going to answer for mine. Such things can cause a lot of confusion and misunderstandings between people and I don't think that helps anything or anybody.....so as I'm free to choose and do, so is any other person who comes to their majority and legal age to do so as well. And I must just leave it all in the hands of God, for He is the one who understands the heart of mankind.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 18:22:21 GMT -5
Quote - "It seems a little strange that God would create a person to be attracted to another person, then kill them when they are actually attracted to them. Sounds not only a bit harsh, but it makes him look like an incompetent creator who has no compassion for those he kills because of his own choice. If anyone should be punished for incompetent creating, it should be God. The truth is, God doesn't kill those whom he created, man makes the judgement to kill or punish them, and blames it on God."
You could say the same for adultery - why would God tempt a man with another woman? Or why would God give humans a nature of hate or greed, then punish them for practicing it? The bible says we are given a human body to live in. And we are subjected to these human passions, "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope."
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jun 7, 2014 18:29:11 GMT -5
It's okay to be gay and be a Christian. Just being gay is not an issue. Homosexual activity, per se, is not an issue. However promiscuity was and is a problem. Paul wrote some very strong verses against homosexuality that I took literally for many years. Rom 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. I no longer take this as a blanket condemnation of all homosexuals. There are two reasons why. As you do, I now understand people are born homosexual, and also some are transgendered. Second, I understand that homosexuals can have long-lasting stable marital relationships. There's no question Paul was referencing a situation here, and condemning it, and I believe the situation was promiscuous homosexual sex. Did Paul understand that some people are born homosexual? He may not have, we don't know. In any case, these verses, and indeed much of Paul's writing are a response to specific situations. There is much in this world that should disgust and revolt us as Paul was revolted here; a stable loving relationship between two homosexual people is not one of those things. I think the church should marry gays, that is, if they marry anyone at all. I can't take an interpretation of this verse that would be against the basic teaching of Jesus to love our neighbour, and two homosexual men or women could easily be our neighbour in this day and age. Rom 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Here is an example that you posted that is one thing I don't understand.....here it is stated as if it is a choice, choosing to leave "natural relations" and go with other men because of their "lust!" Very important question here, Why would anyone choose to leave what they are supposedly naturally attracted to to "try" being with a man because of lust? I could see if the temptation was to go from woman to woman who they were naturally attracted to(beauty, sex appeal etc, but why would they lust after men? Makes NO sense to me except that they were born gay and that WAS their natural attraction! Yes, two homosexuals could be our neighbors, coworkers, family members etc. Love them all. I am glad that more and more people are thinking of this topic logically, still so far to go though. According to some men that have talked about this kind of thing in my presence, the lust for same sex may well come from this natural curiosity that men and some women have about the private parts of another person with the same sexual organs as themselves. It used to be a contest with men who could stream the furtherest, or how many cans they could actually fill from so many feet away, etc Then in the dormitory bathrooms of soldiers, universities or all boy or all girl schools there is very little real privacy....as young folks are always peeking or trying to steal a peek at their neighbors' hidden treasures. The comparing of sizes, etc It just goes on into something that becomes more then the curiosity and comparison issues and lust is born and love sooner or later becomes melted within it. I feel that homosexuality has had a progression in its formation and yes, there have been homosexuals as far back as history perhaps is recorded./ Fact is, some say that Paul's vicious language about it was because he was a repressed homosexual....but of course that's just supposition.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 7, 2014 18:30:04 GMT -5
Matt10.... I am just speaking from the stance that we were taught in the 2x2 fellowship that the bible is God's final word and a guide for us to follow. Trying to make sense of how homosexuality is spoken of in the bible, heard workers speak on it too! That is why I said it shakes my faith! There is so much that is contradictory in the bible and stuff that just doesn't make sense to me. That is why I am losing faith in the bible being "God's final word." Does that make more sense to you? -ph- It makes perfect sense to me that people lose faith in the bible as God's final word. I too lost faith in the bible as God's final word and for that I am very glad. For me the interesting question is why people have so much faith in the Bible? When one is taught from birth that the Bible is the word of God it is difficult to overcome such thinking. It is a very powerful influence. But of course just because you have been taught something from birth and believe it to be true doesn’t mean it actually is true at all. We were all taught that the 2x2 church was the only true church and that the 2x2 workers were God’s only true servants but these two claims have now been wholly discredited. Just because we were taught that the Bible is the final word of God doesn’t mean it’s actually true either. What you have to do is to consider such a claim with an open mind and come to your own conclusion. For me any book which suggests that if a man should sleep with another man he should be put to death, or if a man works on the Sabbath he should also be put to death, is clearly of dubious morality. So why did I ever choose such a book as my moral guide? Because I was taught from an early age that the Bible was the word of God and for twenty something years I was too afraid to challenge that. And why did you ever choose such a book as your moral guide? I’d be interested in your answer. For me, now, the Bible has little to do with God and it is certainly not his word. In my view the people who tell you that the Bible is God's word do not really believe in God; what they believe in is the Bible. The Bible is in fact their moral guide rather than God and that is why they tend to hang on its every word. Thinking about this logically leads one to the conclusion that the Bible is only the word of God if your God is actually the Bible. I like to think that God is somewhat greater than a much translated mistranslated ancient man made book. Of course reading the Bible with an open mind will lead you to the conclusion that it is filled with a fascinating mixture of wisdom and good, history and myth, evil and absurdity. Suggesting that homosexuals are put to death is a part which is evil; suggesting that anyone who works on the Sabbath should be put to death is a part which is an absurdity. Any book containing such evil and absurdity may well be a damned good read but it’s certainly not much of a moral guide for civilised people in the 21st century. Matt10 I also the question is why people have so much faith in the Bible.
However, it goes further than that. I wonder why people have so much faith that there is even a GOD!
There have been so many gods that have come and gone though out history that it seems obvious that all those gods were the creation of the people living at that time.
To find people in the twenty-first century still believing in a God created before c. 1209 BCE, or even 2000 years with the supposed Jesus as god tells me more about PEOPLE than it does about a GOD!
How could anyone still use such a book, Old testament or New testament as moral guide?
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Post by eyedeetentee on Jun 7, 2014 18:54:23 GMT -5
I don't believe all homosexuals are born that way. Take my own grandson for example...when he was a small boy he really liked the pretty girls...Donna Fargo was his top pick of a sweety. He'd get ahold of his daddy's playboy books and look at the books and pat the women's body parts and name them with lust and joy! Even when he was in his early teens, we took him with us to a very special horse show. OUr best friends went with us as well as their daughter and her new boyfriend. The grandson fell in love with this young lady....he sat by her, he followed her all over the place, etc. You can't tell me this male child was born homosexual. Fact is he had a high school sweetheart and they wanted to get married as soon as they graduated. But their parents talked them out of it. The girl went out of state to college, the grandson went to a local community college for the first 2 years of his college courses and this is where he met up with the homosexual crowd. Why did he turn homosexual? Was it on the rebound? Or was it because his own father had given him such a horrible "male image" that the poor young man didn't want to be a c opy of his father, so he changed his orientation? I don't know. It has puzzled me, for as you have more or less implied homosexuals are born that way....but my grandson is not the first and only one that I'v eknown to change streams sometime in life. So yes, I think there are some God does give over to that lifestyle and for me to understand that is not my business, I would guess as God doesn't reveal that to me...so it's my grandson's business as well as any other homosexual's business how and where and when and why they are homosexual. They will answer for their decisions in life as well I am going to answer for mine. Such things can cause a lot of confusion and misunderstandings between people and I don't think that helps anything or anybody.....so as I'm free to choose and do, so is any other person who comes to their majority and legal age to do so as well. And I must just leave it all in the hands of God, for He is the one who understands the heart of mankind. Heh heh, that was a good chuckle. Have you ever heard of bisexuality? There are other identities as well. But then I read your post about guys peeing in cups . . . wow. I bet that was a thrill. I think some minds are much further warped than people like to admit. Yes, mine is one of them - warped beyond your wildest distance-peeing-in-a-cup imagination.
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Post by faune on Jun 7, 2014 19:06:59 GMT -5
Peacfulheart ~ How well I can relate to your present state of mind! However, I still believe in a Creator God over the universe and an eternal spark found within every human heart. Perhaps some of the NDE's I have read about over the years convince me of an afterlife and that's there's more to life than meets the eye? But, just perhaps, we were never met to take the Bible literally, which does contribute to a lot of the confusion between the O.T. and N.T. pictures. I believe you really do need to consider the time frame in which these things were written and the influences that were prevalent at that time? Bart Ehrman's books in relation to Christianity and religion I found most insightful these days and have learned a lot from his writings. What I do wonder about myself is if the early church took a figure from history, like Jesus of Nazareth, and made him into the Christ or promised Messiah and built stories around him from ancient folklore to support their creation? You cannot help but see this as a possibility, when you view the "lost christianities" that developed around the first century and afterwards, IMO? I too have read about NDE's...Very interesting! I agree with you on God creating the universe and the eternal spark in every human heart! I have much to read about and research that will be very interesting. Thanks Peacefulheart ~ It sounds like we both are on a search for answers to questions that puzzle our minds? I found this video presentation by Bart Ehrman informative on how Jesus became God after the first century. Recently I started a thread entitled "Lost Christianities," which is also the book title of one of Bart Ehrman's earlier books. It answered a number of questions for me about the earlier followers of Christ and what they believed. Hopefully, it will answer some of your questions, too?
professing.proboards.com/thread/22116/lost-christianities?page=1
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yte-ad6Y31s
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Post by faune on Jun 7, 2014 19:13:32 GMT -5
I don't believe all homosexuals are born that way. Take my own grandson for example...when he was a small boy he really liked the pretty girls...Donna Fargo was his top pick of a sweety. He'd get ahold of his daddy's playboy books and look at the books and pat the women's body parts and name them with lust and joy! Even when he was in his early teens, we took him with us to a very special horse show. OUr best friends went with us as well as their daughter and her new boyfriend. The grandson fell in love with this young lady....he sat by her, he followed her all over the place, etc. You can't tell me this male child was born homosexual. Fact is he had a high school sweetheart and they wanted to get married as soon as they graduated. But their parents talked them out of it. The girl went out of state to college, the grandson went to a local community college for the first 2 years of his college courses and this is where he met up with the homosexual crowd. Why did he turn homosexual? Was it on the rebound? Or was it because his own father had given him such a horrible "male image" that the poor young man didn't want to be a c opy of his father, so he changed his orientation? I don't know. It has puzzled me, for as you have more or less implied homosexuals are born that way....but my grandson is not the first and only one that I'v eknown to change streams sometime in life. So yes, I think there are some God does give over to that lifestyle and for me to understand that is not my business, I would guess as God doesn't reveal that to me...so it's my grandson's business as well as any other homosexual's business how and where and when and why they are homosexual. They will answer for their decisions in life as well I am going to answer for mine. Such things can cause a lot of confusion and misunderstandings between people and I don't think that helps anything or anybody.....so as I'm free to choose and do, so is any other person who comes to their majority and legal age to do so as well. And I must just leave it all in the hands of God, for He is the one who understands the heart of mankind. Heh heh, that was a good chuckle. Have you ever heard of bisexuality? There are other identities as well. But then I read your post about guys peeing in cups . . . wow. I bet that was a thrill. I think some minds are much further warped than people like to admit. Yes, mine is one of them - warped beyond your wildest distance-peeing-in-a-cup imagination. Sharingtheriches ~ Have you ever thought your grandson might have been born bisexual and eventually just changed over to homosexuality because it suited his natural sexual inclinations better down the road, because he felt freer to be himself during college years? I really don't believe that people just "flip a coin" as to their sexual orientation at some point in their lives? The natural inclination may have been covered up from view for years, but the person probably know for sure one way or the other? JMT
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexuality
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Post by matisse on Jun 7, 2014 19:17:51 GMT -5
Thanks for your input Dennis. I don't know why He would give an 8,9,10,11 year old over to that lifestyle. I just don't get it, guess we all won't understand until after we are dead. By then it won't matter anymore! -ph- I don't believe all homosexuals are born that way. Take my own grandson for example...when he was a small boy he really liked the pretty girls...Donna Fargo was his top pick of a sweety. He'd get ahold of his daddy's playboy books and look at the books and pat the women's body parts and name them with lust and joy! Even when he was in his early teens, we took him with us to a very special horse show. OUr best friends went with us as well as their daughter and her new boyfriend. The grandson fell in love with this young lady....he sat by her, he followed her all over the place, etc. You can't tell me this male child was born homosexual. Fact is he had a high school sweetheart and they wanted to get married as soon as they graduated. But their parents talked them out of it. The girl went out of state to college, the grandson went to a local community college for the first 2 years of his college courses and this is where he met up with the homosexual crowd. Why did he turn homosexual? Was it on the rebound? Or was it because his own father had given him such a horrible "male image" that the poor young man didn't want to be a c opy of his father, so he changed his orientation? I don't know. It has puzzled me, for as you have more or less implied homosexuals are born that way....but my grandson is not the first and only one that I'v eknown to change streams sometime in life. So yes, I think there are some God does give over to that lifestyle and for me to understand that is not my business, I would guess as God doesn't reveal that to me...so it's my grandson's business as well as any other homosexual's business how and where and when and why they are homosexual. They will answer for their decisions in life as well I am going to answer for mine. Such things can cause a lot of confusion and misunderstandings between people and I don't think that helps anything or anybody.....so as I'm free to choose and do, so is any other person who comes to their majority and legal age to do so as well. And I must just leave it all in the hands of God, for He is the one who understands the heart of mankind. There are many shades of sexuality and gender identity. A boy who is drawn to girls and women and who is fascinated with the female anatomy might be a sexually precocious heterosexual boy....he might also secretly wish he could have a female body, or all kinds of variations on the theme.
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Post by blandie on Jun 7, 2014 20:18:23 GMT -5
Blandie ~ I have reviewed both sides of the argument regarding early Christianity myself, but still tend to wonder why modern archaeology and methods of determining the validity of scriptures don't pan out as expected? There are numerous discrepancies and contradictions found throughout the Bible and not just due to mistranslations, although they do serve a part in some of these cases. Also, Bart Ehrman is a well known historian in early Christianity and also comes from a solid evangelical background previously. His writings appear to be well documented with proofs to back up his findings, which I take into consideration. Also, one thing that still amazes me is how scant the information is among secular Roman historians regarding Jesus of Nazareth during the first century. For somebody who changed the world by his teaching, it would seem there would be a lot more left on record than actually exists today? However, by the 4th century, more details emerge as the RCC is established as the first church of Rome. I could tell you were reading Bart Ehrman whose popular writings aren't held in any high esteem among historians or archeologists or biblical scholars and to the contrary his popular works come across like he's the Oliver Stone of theologians. He cherry picks some evidence and adds a heaping helping of personal imagination and overstates some evidence and blithely dismisses other evidence and argue from his conclusions and wraps it all up as fact. To be fair he's probably more careful and less sensationalistic when writing papers for the schooled but that isn't what he does in his money-maker books that are the source of most of his income and are aimed at the general public who isn't so discerning. Lit-crit itself is a problematic pop approach and its weaknesses have failed on being applied to many more recent historical figures and should be taken with a big dollop of skepticism even though it can be very entertaining. My personal view after reading some of him is that his pop lit reflects more about him and his views than it does about the bible or Jesus or theology or history. I'm not saying you shouldn't read pop-theology or lit-crit or anti-religious views but I'm suggesting that no one should swallow that stuff whole. Why are you amazed that Roman historians don't tell us much about Jesus? That he's mentioned at all by 2 of the biggest - and maybe 3 or more if you include Josephus who some dispute and more than just a few later writers - is more amazing IMHO. There are tons of people that we know existed from other evidence and much later accounts who didn't make it into Roman histories - let alone 2 or 3. Nothing about Buddha or Mohammed writen during the years immediately following their lifetimes either but no one applies the same warped criteria to them as they do to the bible for some reason and no one objectively thinks they didn't exist or that some conspiracy centuries later made them up. Apart from the bible itself there is a huge amount of writing from the early second century onward and to ignore that or discount that is a huge mistake. It is a mistake to assume that deviant groups were normal or vice versa and place way too much emphasis on their beliefs. It is a mistake to make perfectly expected multiple viewpoints out to be discrepencies and so forth. A read through the writings of the early christians and other early church historians would be better than signing on to the pop conspiracy theories du jour. It isn't as if there has been anything new in the way of evidence discovered in over 100 yrs. so a fella has to drum up something to sell books but that doesn't mean that I have to buy into the hype.
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 7, 2014 20:19:08 GMT -5
Matt10.... I am just speaking from the stance that we were taught in the 2x2 fellowship that the bible is God's final word and a guide for us to follow. Trying to make sense of how homosexuality is spoken of in the bible, heard workers speak on it too! That is why I said it shakes my faith! There is so much that is contradictory in the bible and stuff that just doesn't make sense to me. That is why I am losing faith in the bible being "God's final word." Does that make more sense to you? -ph- It makes perfect sense to me that people lose faith in the bible as God's final word. I too lost faith in the bible as God's final word and for that I am very glad. For me the interesting question is why people have so much faith in the Bible? When one is taught from birth that the Bible is the word of God it is difficult to overcome such thinking. It is a very powerful influence. But of course just because you have been taught something from birth and believe it to be true doesn’t mean it actually is true at all. We were all taught that the 2x2 church was the only true church and that the 2x2 workers were God’s only true servants but these two claims have now been wholly discredited. Just because we were taught that the Bible is the final word of God doesn’t mean it’s actually true either. What you have to do is to consider such a claim with an open mind and come to your own conclusion. For me any book which suggests that if a man should sleep with another man he should be put to death, or if a man works on the Sabbath he should also be put to death, is clearly of dubious morality. So why did I ever choose such a book as my moral guide? Because I was taught from an early age that the Bible was the word of God and for twenty something years I was too afraid to challenge that. And why did you ever choose such a book as your moral guide? I’d be interested in your answer. For me, now, the Bible has little to do with God and it is certainly not his word. In my view the people who tell you that the Bible is God's word do not really believe in God; what they believe in is the Bible. The Bible is in fact their moral guide rather than God and that is why they tend to hang on its every word. Thinking about this logically leads one to the conclusion that the Bible is only the word of God if your God is actually the Bible. I like to think that God is somewhat greater than a much translated mistranslated ancient man made book. Of course reading the Bible with an open mind will lead you to the conclusion that it is filled with a fascinating mixture of wisdom and good, history and myth, evil and absurdity. Suggesting that homosexuals are put to death is a part which is evil; suggesting that anyone who works on the Sabbath should be put to death is a part which is an absurdity. Any book containing such evil and absurdity may well be a damned good read but it’s certainly not much of a moral guide for civilised people in the 21st century. Matt10 Matt10, I have always used the bible as my moral guide, because the fear was put into me that it is "Gods word to live by!" I am slowly but surely seeing otherwise. I believe in God our creator, but losing faith in the bible as it portrays God! Way too many contradictions etc too. It is a tough road to haul as we know what was ingrained in our brains for sooooo long! The bible is filled with absurdity and evil acts for sure...I feel like I will be struck by lightening by saying that, but it is true. -ph-
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 7, 2014 20:30:14 GMT -5
If you think about it, many rulers have acted like all of the above. The New World Order theorists believe that if any person or group of people says any of that, the world is doomed and coming to an end. But they discount it when they read the same words in the bible . . because it's okay when a god says it. What's the difference? A god was fabricated by a bunch of ego-maniacal kings to enslave their people. That's a pretty handy tool! Do what you want and live how you like as long as you do it according to the demands of your gov't and your god. Then all is cool. I've heard of people stealing and getting by with it 'because the lord told me to do it'. No joke. I'd bet at least one of those preachers slammed with child sex offenses believed that his god gave him those kids because of his sacrifices. People go totally wacko under the guise of religion. Religion makes people crazy . . and hateful. But it's okay because they do it for their god. Gag! Whoa there, calm down There is no problem with my post, I am simply going through a logical thought process that you and others may have already come to a conclusion on possibly ever years ago already. By the way, I like rainbows and unicorns . On a serious note, I am interested in reading the history on other religions, as I have wondered what their beliefs are exactly. So do you believe there is no heaven or hell? Jesus? Where do you think we go when our body dies? Do you believe there is or is not punishment for evil acts? Were we created by God, or did the entire universe just fall into place so intricately as it did? -ph- I knew this would happen. I should have put "in my opinion" at the end of every sentence. Isn't that what writings are if they are not research papers? The problems with your posts - in my opinion - are . . . The problems I have with your statements are . . . One reason I quit coming here often was because everyone wants documentation on everything. No one is allowed to have an opinion. "Where did you read that? Where did you hear that? You're not capable of having these thoughts on your own, so you must have read it or heard it somewhere. Cite it." Bah. Though it may look like I write with anger or something (been accused of it many times - most recently, today in another thread), that is actually not the case. I am calm. I realize you are going through a thought process. I am telling you I have been there, gone there, and here I am. The thought process is called "Life on the outside" (don't steal that for a book or I'll sue). Some of my process started with a class called World Religions at a local community college. The process started long before that class though. It is not really difficult to imagine that this earth became as some science states. You don't need to become a biologist to learn a little bit about atoms, fungus, bacteria, and all the other neat stuff out there that forms from seemingly nothing. A little bit of knowledge will take you a long way. A little imagination might assist. (Yes, Rational, I am sure there are all kinds of things wrong with this paragraph, but as you know, I don't have to cite anything or state anything according to your science because my people, The Company, know the truth of the matter and We are not at liberty at this time to tell you squat . . . in Our opinion.) [/quote] Thanks eyedeetentee! I almost took that class too (World Religions). Hey, I like that book title, "Life on the Outside." You should write that...I'd buy it -ph-
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Post by eyedeetentee on Jun 7, 2014 20:30:39 GMT -5
Feeling like you will be struck by lightning is a sound example of successful brainwashing. You've read and they've said that you cannot say or think anything derogative. They won . . . Until now.
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