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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 6, 2014 19:14:40 GMT -5
I don't understand the people who will rant on and on about homosexuality and hardly raise a whimper about fornication or adultery or lying or any of the rest as if there was any difference. As we are told that even lust after someone whose not your wife is the same as adultery then I suspect those ranters aren't any less guilty before God. Hypocrisy seems to love to distract from itself by pointing at others. You are right blandie! Somehow fornication and adultery are conveniently overlooked.
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 6, 2014 19:33:33 GMT -5
There is only one thing that makes me question the bible, and shakes my faith. Why does God allow people to be born gay, but expect them to change their sexual orientation to be right in His eyes? Now for anyone out there that is about to TRY to convince me that they CHOOSE to be gay.....save it! I know otherwise. I have a family member that is gay, and has known it since 11 years old. Others that I have spoken with have known since very young as well, one guy since he was 8. People don't just decide to be gay, it is their natural attraction. Why would God (as we know Him in the bible) expect them to go against what is their natural attraction? That is like asking a straight person to ignore their attraction to the opposite sex and just try to be gay. I have so much trouble processing this, anyone else have this stumbling block? It's okay to be gay and be a Christian. Just being gay is not an issue. Homosexual activity, per se, is not an issue. However promiscuity was and is a problem. Paul wrote some very strong verses against homosexuality that I took literally for many years. Rom 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. I no longer take this as a blanket condemnation of all homosexuals. There are two reasons why. As you do, I now understand people are born homosexual, and also some are transgendered. Second, I understand that homosexuals can have long-lasting stable marital relationships. There's no question Paul was referencing a situation here, and condemning it, and I believe the situation was promiscuous homosexual sex. Did Paul understand that some people are born homosexual? He may not have, we don't know. In any case, these verses, and indeed much of Paul's writing are a response to specific situations. There is much in this world that should disgust and revolt us as Paul was revolted here; a stable loving relationship between two homosexual people is not one of those things. I think the church should marry gays, that is, if they marry anyone at all. I can't take an interpretation of this verse that would be against the basic teaching of Jesus to love our neighbour, and two homosexual men or women could easily be our neighbour in this day and age. Rom 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. Here is an example that you posted that is one thing I don't understand.....here it is stated as if it is a choice, choosing to leave "natural relations" and go with other men because of their "lust!" Very important question here, Why would anyone choose to leave what they are supposedly naturally attracted to to "try" being with a man because of lust? I could see if the temptation was to go from woman to woman who they were naturally attracted to(beauty, sex appeal etc, but why would they lust after men? Makes NO sense to me except that they were born gay and that WAS their natural attraction! Yes, two homosexuals could be our neighbors, coworkers, family members etc. Love them all. I am glad that more and more people are thinking of this topic logically, still so far to go though.
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 6, 2014 19:37:17 GMT -5
I wonder why people use the word "life style" for gays?
We don't refer to heterosexual orientation as a "life style." but some do argue that its a choice still so hence the "lifestyle" reference... Yes, I think you are correct wally. That is why in my opinion.
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 6, 2014 19:45:29 GMT -5
I think God made gay people so that mankind would learn how to love and accept all kinds of people, no matter how much different they are from ourselves. We haven't learned the lesson too well but we are getting there. As far as the bible goes, it was just written by people who hadn't gotten there yet either. If anyone thinks that the Bible is universal and not conditioned by the times, they should read this: 1Ti 6:1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. The Bible argues for proper treatment of slaves, and for slaves to accept their condition/ lot in life. But the New Testament doesn't move standard cultural practice away from slavery. I think the Bible offers an approach and guidance for the individual in the face of a defined culture, things that can not be changed, but I also like the idea of dispensations from God affecting humanity or a culture as a whole. That is, at certain points in history God has moved the entire culture to a new and better place. The abolition of slavery would be one of those points. Good point what! Thanks.
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Post by Annan on Jun 6, 2014 19:58:20 GMT -5
There is only one thing that makes me question the bible, and shakes my faith. Why does God allow people to be born gay, but expect them to change their sexual orientation to be right in His eyes? Now for anyone out there that is about to TRY to convince me that they CHOOSE to be gay.....save it! I know otherwise. I have a family member that is gay, and has known it since 11 years old. Others that I have spoken with have known since very young as well, one guy since he was 8. People don't just decide to be gay, it is their natural attraction. Why would God (as we know Him in the bible) expect them to go against what is their natural attraction? That is like asking a straight person to ignore their attraction to the opposite sex and just try to be gay. I have so much trouble processing this, anyone else have this stumbling block? Only one thing shakes your faith? Seriously? The actions of the human animal alone should be enough to shake your faith. By the way, have you read the Old Testament?
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Post by Gene on Jun 6, 2014 20:19:55 GMT -5
Thanks for your input Dennis. I don't know why He would give an 8,9,10,11 year old over to that lifestyle. I just don't get it, guess we all won't understand until after we are dead. By then it won't matter anymore! -ph- When I was eight years old, I was stricken with rheumatic fever. Spent the next 5 years of my life physically confined, totally bed ridden for the first couple of years. Had to find answers for my own situation, not another's, I found them, young as I was.
It is very tough to understand such things at any age.
Concentrated study of Job and his life and experience even at a very young age answered many of my questions, and without help from others. People can find just as many reasons not to believe in, or trust in GOD. Personally, I believe it is just a matter of a truly personal relationship, not something of head knowledge nor instruction by anyone else, which, I've observed easily fails at the very time a person could use the individual help from outside themselves and their own mind, whether or not that need is recognized.
Again, free will is one of the determining factors in this and other situations.
One says they knew there was no GOD since early Childhood, another like myself found that GOD in early childhood. Not waiting for death to confirm what I believe true, have spent a lifetime proving the GOD I first chose to trust so early in life. My free will. Others exercise(d) their own free will just as early, resulting in different ends and conclusions. Did I chose to suffer from rheumatic fever, then later encephalitis, and spinal meningitis? Of course not. Do such children as you describe chose their orientation? Of course not. For ME, the "free will" portion comes into how every individual deals with their circumstances of life, which, personally, I choose to blame on the prince of this world, and not my GOD!
Again, personally, I believe I was created subject to vanity or emptiness, not willingly on my part, but by the reason of ONE who has subjected me to hope, that eagerly anticipated expectation of that which is best yet to come. Don't expect this to make sense to those without belief in GOD, or even to everyone who does believe in GOD. It only has to make sense and be proven to me in my own mind as it has over and over. Again, best wishes for you in reaching your own decisions in the exercise of your own free will. 54 years old, and FINALLY I get an explanation! Discovering I was gay at age 10 is no different than coming down with rheumatic fever, or encephalitis, or spinal meningitis at a similar age. The devil did it, and it's up to me to read the book of Job, learn a lesson, exercise my free will and deal with it!
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 6, 2014 20:20:27 GMT -5
There is only one thing that makes me question the bible, and shakes my faith. Why does God allow people to be born gay, but expect them to change their sexual orientation to be right in His eyes? Now for anyone out there that is about to TRY to convince me that they CHOOSE to be gay.....save it! I know otherwise. I have a family member that is gay, and has known it since 11 years old. Others that I have spoken with have known since very young as well, one guy since he was 8. People don't just decide to be gay, it is their natural attraction. Why would God (as we know Him in the bible) expect them to go against what is their natural attraction? That is like asking a straight person to ignore their attraction to the opposite sex and just try to be gay. I have so much trouble processing this, anyone else have this stumbling block? Only one thing shakes your faith? Seriously? The actions of the human animal alone should be enough to shake your faith. By the way, have you read the Old Testament? Where do I start with this? Hmmm, "The actions of the human animal alone" shakes my faith in mankind. Certain scriptures in the bible, and whether or not they are "Gods stance" on the given topic, shake my faith in religion and those that put Gods word down in writing (which ultimately is still mankind). Yes, of course I have read the Old Testament.....much of which doesn't reflect the God in the New Testament! Just another topic to explore there.
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 6, 2014 20:33:05 GMT -5
When I was eight years old, I was stricken with rheumatic fever. Spent the next 5 years of my life physically confined, totally bed ridden for the first couple of years. Had to find answers for my own situation, not another's, I found them, young as I was.
It is very tough to understand such things at any age.
Concentrated study of Job and his life and experience even at a very young age answered many of my questions, and without help from others. People can find just as many reasons not to believe in, or trust in GOD. Personally, I believe it is just a matter of a truly personal relationship, not something of head knowledge nor instruction by anyone else, which, I've observed easily fails at the very time a person could use the individual help from outside themselves and their own mind, whether or not that need is recognized.
Again, free will is one of the determining factors in this and other situations.
One says they knew there was no GOD since early Childhood, another like myself found that GOD in early childhood. Not waiting for death to confirm what I believe true, have spent a lifetime proving the GOD I first chose to trust so early in life. My free will. Others exercise(d) their own free will just as early, resulting in different ends and conclusions. Did I chose to suffer from rheumatic fever, then later encephalitis, and spinal meningitis? Of course not. Do such children as you describe chose their orientation? Of course not. For ME, the "free will" portion comes into how every individual deals with their circumstances of life, which, personally, I choose to blame on the prince of this world, and not my GOD!
Again, personally, I believe I was created subject to vanity or emptiness, not willingly on my part, but by the reason of ONE who has subjected me to hope, that eagerly anticipated expectation of that which is best yet to come. Don't expect this to make sense to those without belief in GOD, or even to everyone who does believe in GOD. It only has to make sense and be proven to me in my own mind as it has over and over. Again, best wishes for you in reaching your own decisions in the exercise of your own free will. 54 years old, and FINALLY I get an explanation! Discovering I was gay at age 10 is no different than coming down with rheumatic fever, or encephalitis, or spinal meningitis at a similar age. The devil did it, and it's up to me to read the book of Job, learn a lesson, exercise my free will and deal with it! Sooo very different! Gene, so you knew at a very young age too. My family member knew at 11. I have a few gay friends that tried the married life with kids, only to be unhappy because it was so unnatural to them. I hope people can just open their eyes and hearts to see that it is not a choice! Clearly it is not some new "lifestyle choice."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 21:47:38 GMT -5
When I was eight years old, I was stricken with rheumatic fever. Spent the next 5 years of my life physically confined, totally bed ridden for the first couple of years. Had to find answers for my own situation, not another's, I found them, young as I was.
It is very tough to understand such things at any age.
Concentrated study of Job and his life and experience even at a very young age answered many of my questions, and without help from others. People can find just as many reasons not to believe in, or trust in GOD. Personally, I believe it is just a matter of a truly personal relationship, not something of head knowledge nor instruction by anyone else, which, I've observed easily fails at the very time a person could use the individual help from outside themselves and their own mind, whether or not that need is recognized.
Again, free will is one of the determining factors in this and other situations.
One says they knew there was no GOD since early Childhood, another like myself found that GOD in early childhood. Not waiting for death to confirm what I believe true, have spent a lifetime proving the GOD I first chose to trust so early in life. My free will. Others exercise(d) their own free will just as early, resulting in different ends and conclusions. Did I chose to suffer from rheumatic fever, then later encephalitis, and spinal meningitis? Of course not. Do such children as you describe chose their orientation? Of course not. For ME, the "free will" portion comes into how every individual deals with their circumstances of life, which, personally, I choose to blame on the prince of this world, and not my GOD!
Again, personally, I believe I was created subject to vanity or emptiness, not willingly on my part, but by the reason of ONE who has subjected me to hope, that eagerly anticipated expectation of that which is best yet to come. Don't expect this to make sense to those without belief in GOD, or even to everyone who does believe in GOD. It only has to make sense and be proven to me in my own mind as it has over and over. Again, best wishes for you in reaching your own decisions in the exercise of your own free will. 54 years old, and FINALLY I get an explanation! Discovering I was gay at age 10 is no different than coming down with rheumatic fever, or encephalitis, or spinal meningitis at a similar age. The devil did it, and it's up to me to read the book of Job, learn a lesson, exercise my free will and deal with it! The "come to Jesus and be cured of your homosexuality disease" has not only been discredited by its rampant failure, but has also been established as being harmful to some people. I don't know what it is like to discover one's natural homosexuality, but I remember the exact day and place at the moment I first discovered my heterosexuality. It was like: "whoa, what pleasant thing is going on down there? and why does that girl look so extremely attractive at this moment?" I can only imagine that the homosexual discovery is something similar, although more confusing in a culture that was once quite anti-gay.
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Post by Gene on Jun 6, 2014 21:52:46 GMT -5
54 years old, and FINALLY I get an explanation! Discovering I was gay at age 10 is no different than coming down with rheumatic fever, or encephalitis, or spinal meningitis at a similar age. The devil did it, and it's up to me to read the book of Job, learn a lesson, exercise my free will and deal with it! The "come to Jesus and be cured of your homosexuality disease" has not only been discredited by its rampant failure, but has also been established as being harmful to some people. I don't know what it is like to discover one's natural homosexuality, but I remember the exact day and place at the moment I first discovered my heterosexuality. It was like: "whoa, what pleasant thing is going on down there and why does that girl look so extremely attractive at this moment?" So the corollary in my experience, thanks to societal pressures, was "whoa, what pleasant thing is going on down there and what is wrong with me and am I going to hell and how can I keep it secret from everyone that I'm the only person in the world for whom it's not the girl but the girl's brother that looks so extremely attractive at this moment?"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2014 21:59:32 GMT -5
The "come to Jesus and be cured of your homosexuality disease" has not only been discredited by its rampant failure, but has also been established as being harmful to some people. I don't know what it is like to discover one's natural homosexuality, but I remember the exact day and place at the moment I first discovered my heterosexuality. It was like: "whoa, what pleasant thing is going on down there and why does that girl look so extremely attractive at this moment?" So the corollary in my experience, thanks to societal pressures, was "whoa, what pleasant thing is going on down there and what is wrong with me and am I going to hell and how can I keep it secret from everyone that I'm the only person in the world for whom it's not the girl but the girl's brother that looks so extremely attractive at this moment?" Yes, that is much what I expected it would have been like in such an anti-gay culture back then. Confusion, guilt, fear added to the mix of pleasantness. From what I understand, it's getting better for pubescents discovering their natural homosexual inclinations.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 6, 2014 22:05:22 GMT -5
There is only one thing that makes me question the bible, and shakes my faith. Why does God allow people to be born gay, but expect them to change their sexual orientation to be right in His eyes? Now for anyone out there that is about to TRY to convince me that they CHOOSE to be gay.....save it! I know otherwise. I have a family member that is gay, and has known it since 11 years old. Others that I have spoken with have known since very young as well, one guy since he was 8. People don't just decide to be gay, it is their natural attraction. Why would God (as we know Him in the bible) expect them to go against what is their natural attraction? That is like asking a straight person to ignore their attraction to the opposite sex and just try to be gay. I have so much trouble processing this, anyone else have this stumbling block? Only one thing shakes your faith? Seriously? The actions of the human animal alone should be enough to shake your faith. By the way, have you read the Old Testament? Thanks for that,Annan! I had wanted to ask that same question!
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Post by matisse on Jun 6, 2014 22:09:21 GMT -5
Don't expect this to make sense to those without belief in GOD, or even to everyone who does believe in GOD. A familiar twist of thought....almost like an old friend to me now. Like my memory of God washing garments white as snow, and draping them to dry across the chair in the bedroom of my childhood.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 6, 2014 22:17:12 GMT -5
54 years old, and FINALLY I get an explanation! Discovering I was gay at age 10 is no different than coming down with rheumatic fever, or encephalitis, or spinal meningitis at a similar age. The devil did it, and it's up to me to read the book of Job, learn a lesson, exercise my free will and deal with it! The "come to Jesus and be cured of your homosexuality disease" has not only been discredited by its rampant failure, but has also been established as being harmful to some people. Thank you, clearday, for your post.
I am really impressed with your post and some other of your posts lately.
(Now -take it easy & just catch your breath and don't faint dead away! )
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2014 4:19:08 GMT -5
There is only one thing that makes me question the bible, and shakes my faith. Why does God allow people to be born gay, but expect them to change their sexual orientation to be right in His eyes? Now for anyone out there that is about to TRY to convince me that they CHOOSE to be gay.....save it! I know otherwise. I have a family member that is gay, and has known it since 11 years old. Others that I have spoken with have known since very young as well, one guy since he was 8. People don't just decide to be gay, it is their natural attraction. Why would God (as we know Him in the bible) expect them to go against what is their natural attraction? That is like asking a straight person to ignore their attraction to the opposite sex and just try to be gay. I have so much trouble processing this, anyone else have this stumbling block? You may find that it all makes much more sense if you stop assuming that God has anything to do with a person’s sexuality whether it’s creating it, changing it, allowing it or frowning upon it. God really doesn’t give a hoot about a person’s sexuality. It’s only those who believe in the bible over God who seem to be peculiarly obsessed with what other people get up to in the bedroom. Why should anyone care if your next door neighbour is fornicating with the milkman in an unorthodox position or if your spinster aunt really is a lesbian providing they are all consenting adults and no one is getting hurt? My advice is to stop using the bible as your moral guide when it comes to matters of sexuality. The bible does not represent the views of God on such matters but rather the peculiar ancient laws and customs of the men who wrote it. Nature has decreed your family member’s sexuality just as nature has decreed the colour of his eyes, the length of his nose and the size of his ears. You’re not concerned that God might think his ears are too large and want him to downsize them are you? Of course not. So why on earth would God want him to change his sexuality? Remember just as there is a lot of good advice contained within the Bible, there is also a lot of complete nonsense. Be careful not to become enslaved by it in your thinking. Matt10
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Post by What Hat on Jun 7, 2014 8:28:12 GMT -5
If anyone thinks that the Bible is universal and not conditioned by the times, they should read this: 1Ti 6:1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. The Bible argues for proper treatment of slaves, and for slaves to accept their condition/ lot in life. But the New Testament doesn't move standard cultural practice away from slavery. I think the Bible offers an approach and guidance for the individual in the face of a defined culture, things that can not be changed, but I also like the idea of dispensations from God affecting humanity or a culture as a whole. That is, at certain points in history God has moved the entire culture to a new and better place. The abolition of slavery would be one of those points. There is a lot about your explanation that makes sense IF you must believe that the bible is THE only manual for human ethics. However, why must it be "A God" that has "moved the culture to a new and better place?" What Hat, you yourself, stated that you "no longer take this as a blanket condemnation of all homosexuals."
Then you gave the reasons why: (Very good reasons, by the way.) "As you do, I now understand people are born homosexual, and also some are transgendered. Second, I understand that homosexuals can have long-lasting stable marital relationships."
My question to you, What Hat, is where did that new understanding come from? Did it come from the knowledge gained by science or did GOD reveal it to you?
If it were GOD, then why did HE reveal it only NOW when HE had always known it?
Think of all the tragedy that knowledge could have prevented if HE, being all knowing and all powerful, -would have revealed a long time ago?
I read this shortly after you posted this, and I thought it was a great question, that is, it threw me a bit of balance. So I thought I'd age it a bit before answering. You've caused me to think a bit about the nature of divine revelation within my life. I could facetiously answer that the stone tablets I got wore out and God gave me some new ones, only they were slightly different. But revelation has never worked for me in that way. I suppose my life has been driven more by questions than by answers, and that my spiritual journey has been one where I am sure of less and less, but more sure than ever of what remains. The reason I remain a Christian (although some people say I'm not, but I don't have a better word right now), is because of the process, moreso than the doctrine, or any 'answers' that God has given me. I get involved in doctrinal debates here not because I think my own doctrine is the correct one, but because I dislike totalizing prescriptive solutions. I think we're far better, no matter what our world view, to remain skeptical and inquiring as we go forward. So, that leaves the question of the role of God in all this. God and Jesus do exist for me, I feel their presence, and I dialogue with them in prayer and at other times. Maybe not as much as I should. I don't expect them to hand me a stone tablet on the question of gays and Christians, but I think they're a guiding force. Foremost it's important to me to keep my compass set in the right direction, which means, love God and love your neighbour. Then there has to be an abiding faith that doing the right thing or doing the better thing will be worth it, which might mean 'reward' but has come to mean 'not being able to do anything else and live with it'. So those are the kinds of things that God does reveal. Then once centred on these principles, the rest of it is a dialogue between my experience, the experiences of others, and reason. That process has meant change over time in my thinking and what I do as a person. Some of that change is because what works at 30, is not what works at 40, 50 or 60. Some of it is because our culture has moved. Some of it is 'new information'. Some of it is discarding stuff that never was right in the first place. All of it has required my own keen participation; although epiphanies and major turning points do occur, the timing and impact of which I can only conclude, are God-given.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 7, 2014 8:39:52 GMT -5
There is only one thing that makes me question the bible, and shakes my faith. Why does God allow people to be born gay, but expect them to change their sexual orientation to be right in His eyes? Now for anyone out there that is about to TRY to convince me that they CHOOSE to be gay.....save it! I know otherwise. I have a family member that is gay, and has known it since 11 years old. Others that I have spoken with have known since very young as well, one guy since he was 8. People don't just decide to be gay, it is their natural attraction. Why would God (as we know Him in the bible) expect them to go against what is their natural attraction? That is like asking a straight person to ignore their attraction to the opposite sex and just try to be gay. I have so much trouble processing this, anyone else have this stumbling block? Only one thing shakes your faith? Seriously? The actions of the human animal alone should be enough to shake your faith. By the way, have you read the Old Testament? Well, it's a big one right now. I agree with 'peaceful heart'. We've long discounted the OT as prescriptive, and think of it containing lessons and being a foreshadowing of Christ's life. So Christ-centered thinking provides a filter on the Old Testament. (The concept of dispensation really works well in shaping this understanding). But the epistles of Paul are taken much more seriously across most of the Christian world. I think that if you don't accept Paul's word that homosexuality is inherently immoral, and I repeat that I don't, then you have to process all of the New Testament rather differently than you might have in the past. I believe that you have to take it as being much more dependent on the cultural context of that time, and not so much relevant across all cultures. And yes, it means women don't have to wear their hair long. Then the question becomes, what are the underlying principles that still might have relevance in our day? So Paul's dictates on hair don't mean that anything goes, either, but you have tease out the underlying principle. I do believe that we have to abandon the field on the meaningless, controversial points in order to have something that can still have meaning for the destitute and that will constitute sound moral guidance to the world in general.
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Post by eyedeetentee on Jun 7, 2014 11:17:55 GMT -5
There are two immediate problems with your post. The second is "Why does God allow people to be born gay, but expect them to change their sexual orientation to be right in His eyes?"
Matt10 basically said what I was thinking. To expound, assuming what one expects to be 'right' is a waste of time and brain matter, which leads to the first problem of your post: You believe a book written by people who lived around 1600 or so. There are supposedly texts written two thousand and some odd years ago relating to that religion.
I challenge you to read religious history. Skip Christian history because, if you have not read it, you've probably heard some of the tales about the Catholic church breaking up, the slaughter of non-followers, etc. Read the histories of all of the other religions out there - Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, etc. One commonality is they all expect people to believe and act a certain way.
A person recently told me all people are given morals when they accept god. Oh? So morality is only possessed by religious people? Some of the most immoral people I know are Christians. I know a few atheists and a few followers of unaccepted beliefs that have better morals than their bashers.
The bible is a tool of force. It has worked for centuries to calm people down and make them adhere to a certain set of rules. "If you don't comply, you will go to hell." "What's hell?" "Oh, it's this nasty place we've conjured up to make sure you comply." "Bull hockey. Hell doesn't exist - you just want me to build your castle, marry your daughter, have a kajillion kids to overpopulate the earth, and not question you in all this." "You don't believe in hell? Well, you'll go to hell for not believing in it. Furthermore, if you don't do as I say and as all my laws, regulations, and rules dictate, you will go to hell. You must allow me to take away your weapons, cram religion down your throat, spy on you in whatever way I please, and know everything about you at all times or you will go to hell. You must hate everything I tell you to hate. You must believe every word I tell you, even though I say one thing one minute and another later - it is all true, right, and correct. You must believe everyone who claims to represent me."
"So, the alternative to all that is going to hell. What if I decide you're right, I'm wrong, and I need to be corrected in my most error-filled life?"
"Ah, yes! You have seen the light! For that, I will give you everything you have ever wanted and more . . after you die! You will live with me in the most amazing place you could ever imagine where the sun shines forever, you never run out of energy or have any need to sleep, the animals are all loving and don't eat each other for sustenance (because I give sustenance), the roads are paved with gold (the most valuable metal at the time of this writing, but obviously not anymore during your time . . . so I'll change it to platinum or whatever you want because I can change things whenever I want), and rainbows and unicorns float through the sky.
But while you are on earth, I'll protect you (ahem, cough, cough). If your gov't claims me, you must obey every rule and iota it dictates. But the nice thing about me is you can choose which rules to ignore. Just because the law says the limit is 65 doesn't mean you can't go 68. That's okay. You can even go 72 as long as you are doing it for me. It's also okay to slightly bend the rule that says you must stay married to one person your entire life. That's okay because you are living your life for me. You don't even have to get married to have kids. Your gov't will supply you your needs and then some because it does it in my name and knows that is what I expect. One of my slaves, er, servants set up a nice fund for you - he called it Social In . . uh . . Security. That is my way of thanking you for following the demands of your gov't and me."
If you think about it, many rulers have acted like all of the above. The New World Order theorists believe that if any person or group of people says any of that, the world is doomed and coming to an end. But they discount it when they read the same words in the bible . . because it's okay when a god says it. What's the difference? A god was fabricated by a bunch of ego-maniacal kings to enslave their people. That's a pretty handy tool!
Do what you want and live how you like as long as you do it according to the demands of your gov't and your god. Then all is cool. I've heard of people stealing and getting by with it 'because the lord told me to do it'. No joke. I'd bet at least one of those preachers slammed with child sex offenses believed that his god gave him those kids because of his sacrifices. People go totally wacko under the guise of religion. Religion makes people crazy . . and hateful. But it's okay because they do it for their god. Gag!
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Post by faune on Jun 7, 2014 11:41:05 GMT -5
I don't understand the people who will rant on and on about homosexuality and hardly raise a whimper about fornication or adultery or lying or any of the rest as if there was any difference. As we are told that even lust after someone whose not your wife is the same as adultery then I suspect those ranters aren't any less guilty before God. Hypocrisy seems to love to distract from itself by pointing at others. You are right blandie! Somehow fornication and adultery are conveniently overlooked. Honestly, I wonder why the big focus anyway on homosexuality within today's society by the religious Right Wing? You would think they have better things to occupy their minds than condemning people for their natural sexual orientation? However, I noticed under O.T. law that the same mentality existed among the priestly religious element in which anybody with any difference from the norm were ostracized from their place of worship, and not just the homosexuals. Anybody with any physical malady were excluded, too, due to these O.T. laws, which seems quite unfair. That's one good reason why I refuse to accept O.T. discriminatory laws as a basic for treatment of human beings. I'm glad to see such behavior is changing within our society with new laws being enacted and hopefully people will begin to see it's about time they lay aside their old prejudices towards gays or anybody else who doesn't fit their approved agenda?
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Post by faune on Jun 7, 2014 12:16:27 GMT -5
Only one thing shakes your faith? Seriously? The actions of the human animal alone should be enough to shake your faith. By the way, have you read the Old Testament? Thanks for that,Annan! I had wanted to ask that same question!Personally, the more I study the history behind the Bible canon and how it came about in the first place, I've been made aware of how much of its contents has man's injected opinions throughout its pages, which also contributes to its many discrepancies and contradictions throughout ~ not to mention some of the O.T. practices and laws that blow the mind. If a Creator God was really behind all of these O.T. laws, I would truly wonder how you could picture him as being a loving being? Unfortunately, the picture that is portrayed turns a number of people off to God and religion altogether due to its exclusive and discriminatory nature. One thing for sure, you can see the hand of mankind in the creation of the God they desired for the occasion ~ from warrior to peacemaker and back to warrior again in Revelation.
Does the inconsistency found within its pages not cause some to wonder about some its contents and whether different opinions were written in as deemed necessary to control the masses? The subject of eternal hellfire is just one topic that comes to mind, but there are many others that challenge the mind due to mistranslations of scriptures by original Bible canon writers. Also, if the Gospel stories are for real, why all the similarities to pagan religions of the past which are truly mind blowing? Another question that comes to mind is whether the Roman Catholic Church took a historical figure like Jesus of Nazareth and turn him into a God or "deified being" in the formation of a religion known as Christianity? Bart Ehrman has written a number of books on the early days of Christianity that might be worth checking out at the library for the information they provide?
www.godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell
www.amazon.com/How-Jesus-Became-God-Exaltation/dp/0061778184?tag=533643275-20
www.amazon.com/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195182499
www.truthbeknown.com/christ.htm
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Post by faune on Jun 7, 2014 13:22:50 GMT -5
Only one thing shakes your faith? Seriously? The actions of the human animal alone should be enough to shake your faith. By the way, have you read the Old Testament? Where do I start with this? Hmmm, "The actions of the human animal alone" shakes my faith in mankind. Certain scriptures in the bible, and whether or not they are "Gods stance" on the given topic, shake my faith in religion and those that put Gods word down in writing (which ultimately is still mankind). Yes, of course I have read the Old Testament.....much of which doesn't reflect the God in the New Testament! Just another topic to explore there. Peacfulheart ~ How well I can relate to your present state of mind! However, I still believe in a Creator God over the universe and an eternal spark found within every human heart. Perhaps some of the NDE's I have read about over the years convince me of an afterlife and that's there's more to life than meets the eye? But, just perhaps, we were never met to take the Bible literally, which does contribute to a lot of the confusion between the O.T. and N.T. pictures. I believe you really do need to consider the time frame in which these things were written and the influences that were prevalent at that time? Bart Ehrman's books in relation to Christianity and religion I found most insightful these days and have learned a lot from his writings. What I do wonder about myself is if the early church took a figure from history, like Jesus of Nazareth, and made him into the Christ or promised Messiah and built stories around him from ancient folklore to support their creation? You cannot help but see this as a possibility, when you view the "lost christianities" that developed around the first century and afterwards, IMO?
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Post by faune on Jun 7, 2014 13:23:41 GMT -5
Only one thing shakes your faith? Seriously? The actions of the human animal alone should be enough to shake your faith. By the way, have you read the Old Testament? Where do I start with this? Hmmm, "The actions of the human animal alone" shakes my faith in mankind. Certain scriptures in the bible, and whether or not they are "Gods stance" on the given topic, shake my faith in religion and those that put Gods word down in writing (which ultimately is still mankind). Yes, of course I have read the Old Testament.....much of which doesn't reflect the God in the New Testament! Just another topic to explore there. Peacfulheart ~ How well I can relate to your present state of mind! However, I still believe in a Creator God over the universe and an eternal spark found within every human heart. Perhaps some of the NDE's I have read about over the years convince me of an afterlife and that's there's more to life than meets the eye? But, just perhaps, we were never met to take the Bible literally, which does contribute to a lot of the confusion between the O.T. and N.T. pictures. I believe you really do need to consider the time frame in which these things were written and the influences that were prevalent at that time? Bart Ehrman's books in relation to Christianity and religion I found most insightful these days and have learned a lot from his writings. What I do wonder about myself is if the early church took a figure from history, like Jesus of Nazareth, and made him into the Christ or promised Messiah and built stories around him from ancient folklore to support their creation? You cannot help but see this as a possibility, when you view the "lost christianities" that developed around the first century and afterwards, IMO?
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Post by blandie on Jun 7, 2014 13:26:28 GMT -5
Personally, the more I study the history behind the Bible canon and how it came about in the first place, I've been made aware of how much of its contents has man's injected opinions throughout its pages, which also contributes to its many discrepancies and contradictions throughout ~ not to mention some of the O.T. practices and laws that blow the mind. If a Creator God was really behind all of these O.T. laws, I would truly wonder how you could picture him as being a loving being? Unfortunately, the picture that is portrayed turns a number of people off to God and religion altogether due to its exclusive and discriminatory nature. One thing for sure, you can see the hand of mankind in the creation of the God they desired for the occasion ~ from warrior to peacemaker and back to warrior again in Revelation.
Does the inconsistency found within its pages not cause some to wonder about some its contents and whether different opinions were written in as deemed necessary to control the masses? The subject of eternal hellfire is just one topic that comes to mind, but there are many others that challenge the mind due to mistranslations of scriptures by original Bible canon writers. Also, if the Gospel stories are for real, why all the similarities to pagan religions of the past which are truly mind blowing? Another question that comes to mind is whether the Roman Catholic Church took a historical figure like Jesus of Nazareth and turn him into a God or "deified being" in the formation of a religion known as Christianity? Bart Ehrman has written a number of books on the early days of Christianity that might be worth checking out at the library for the information they provide? I think maybe it is also possible to take in an unbalanced stream of junk food and easily ignore what it is doing to one's health because it is novel or just suits ones taste and that it suits our taste buds doesn't mean that there aren't sound answers to support the balanced diet or that we won't discover that the better stuff can be tasty but it is just where we're at. We should always be skeptical of our own preconceptions and we should be also skeptical of wildly biased layers of trash that rests on wacko twistings of history and theology that we read. Most of this stuff is tired repackaging of things that have been convincingly answered again and again for centuries and gets dredged up to add weight to another repackaging of so-called bible criticism where multiple points of view of the same event get labeled as discrepancies and standards for the good of the community get labeled as unloving and standing up for what is real gets labeled as exclusive and discriminatory and variations in translations get labeled as mistranslations and that other religions have similar approaches to god gets labeled as derivative and of course anything that is widely accepted and grounded in scriptures gets labeled as a Catholic conspiracy. I've read a bunch of this over the last years and frankly it gets repetitive and you start noticing that it really doesn't jive with history or archelology or the bible either unless you really think history and the bible also are some kind of catholic-evangelical-reformation conspiracy. At some point when reading this sort of stuff I began to look at some of the works mentioned in the endnotes and found the picture was lopsided but not in the way it was being presented and it was amazing to me how many of these not-all-that-new questions have long been addressed by historians and rabbis and church fathers long long ago and it is good to read both sides if you want balance.
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Post by faune on Jun 7, 2014 13:35:59 GMT -5
Faune, thank you for your response! I agree with your opinion here, and have also wondered about tampering with the bible. There is a warning for a good reason about adding to or taking away from it..... because someone was sure to do it! I didn't used to give too much thought to the gay topic before my family member came out. I did wonder about it occasionally though, because I have seen VERY feminine men before and they were naturally that way, it was not for show or forced action. There clearly is so much we don't know, and not our place to judge! It's hard to be a help though when gays know that the religious world thinks they chose to be gay, how could they feel loved and accepted into God's family??? Where do they go for fellowship? Peacefulheart, just some responses to both your and faune's posts.
1. Homosexuality isn't an "abnormality." Had it been, surely modern medicine and psychological counceling would have done something to correct it by now.
The American Psychological Association statement on Homosexuality :
from wiki: "All major professional mental health organizations have gone on record to affirm that homosexuality is not a mental disorder. In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association’s Board of Trustees removed homosexuality from its official diagnostic manual, The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Second Edition (DSM II). The action was taken following a review of the scientific literature and consultation with experts in the field. The experts found that homosexuality does not meet the criteria to be considered a mental illness."
2. You ask, "Where do they go for fellowship?" Many churches accept & welcome the gay community.from wiki :"Other Christian denominations do not view monogamous same-sex relationships as sinful or immoral, and may bless such unions and consider them marriages. These include the United Church of Canada, and the United Church of Christ.,[26] all German Lutheran, reformed and united churches in EKD,[27]
all Swiss reformed churches, the Protestant Church in the Netherlands, the Church of Denmark, the Church of Sweden, the Church of Iceland and the Church of Norway. The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland also allows prayer for same-sex couples.[28] In particular, the Metropolitan Community Church was founded specifically to serve the Christian LGBT community. The Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals (GAAAP), traces its roots back to 1980, making it the oldest LGBT-affirming Apostolic Pentecostal denomination in existence.[29]
Another such organization is the Affirming Pentecostal Church International, currently the largest affirming Pentecostal organization, with churches in the US, UK, Central and South America, Europe and Africa.
Dmmichgood ~ Thank you for correcting me above. I should have better clarified my statement regarding abnormalities as viewed from Bible times up until 1973, which pertained to the subject of homosexuality. I do realize that homosexuality is not viewed as a mental disorder today in need of a cure. Unfortunately, some people are slow to accept science and change in opinions among the health professionals even today due to their religious beliefs. However, it's good to know that in the last 40 years that some progress has been made in this area and is beginning to be displayed within the laws of the land to correct this injustice and discrimination.
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Post by faune on Jun 7, 2014 13:56:39 GMT -5
Personally, the more I study the history behind the Bible canon and how it came about in the first place, I've been made aware of how much of its contents has man's injected opinions throughout its pages, which also contributes to its many discrepancies and contradictions throughout ~ not to mention some of the O.T. practices and laws that blow the mind. If a Creator God was really behind all of these O.T. laws, I would truly wonder how you could picture him as being a loving being? Unfortunately, the picture that is portrayed turns a number of people off to God and religion altogether due to its exclusive and discriminatory nature. One thing for sure, you can see the hand of mankind in the creation of the God they desired for the occasion ~ from warrior to peacemaker and back to warrior again in Revelation.
Does the inconsistency found within its pages not cause some to wonder about some its contents and whether different opinions were written in as deemed necessary to control the masses? The subject of eternal hellfire is just one topic that comes to mind, but there are many others that challenge the mind due to mistranslations of scriptures by original Bible canon writers. Also, if the Gospel stories are for real, why all the similarities to pagan religions of the past which are truly mind blowing? Another question that comes to mind is whether the Roman Catholic Church took a historical figure like Jesus of Nazareth and turn him into a God or "deified being" in the formation of a religion known as Christianity? Bart Ehrman has written a number of books on the early days of Christianity that might be worth checking out at the library for the information they provide? I think maybe it is also possible to take in an unbalanced stream of junk food and easily ignore what it is doing to one's health because it is novel or just suits ones taste and that it suits our taste buds doesn't mean that there aren't sound answers to support the balanced diet or that we won't discover that the better stuff can be tasty but it is just where we're at. We should always be skeptical of our own preconceptions and we should be also skeptical of wildly biased layers of trash that rests on wacko twistings of history and theology that we read. Most of this stuff is tired repackaging of things that have been convincingly answered again and again for centuries and gets dredged up to add weight to another repackaging of so-called bible criticism where multiple points of view of the same event get labeled as discrepancies and standards for the good of the community get labeled as unloving and standing up for what is real gets labeled as exclusive and discriminatory and variations in translations get labeled as mistranslations and that other religions have similar approaches to god gets labeled as derivative and of course anything that is widely accepted and grounded in scriptures gets labeled as a Catholic conspiracy. I've read a bunch of this over the last years and frankly it gets repetitive and you start noticing that it really doesn't jive with history or archelology or the bible either unless you really think history and the bible also are some kind of catholic-evangelical-reformation conspiracy. At some point when reading this sort of stuff I began to look at some of the works mentioned in the endnotes and found the picture was lopsided but not in the way it was being presented and it was amazing to me how many of these not-all-that-new questions have long been addressed by historians and rabbis and church fathers long long ago and it is good to read both sides if you want balance. Blandie ~ I have reviewed both sides of the argument regarding early Christianity myself, but still tend to wonder why modern archaeology and methods of determining the validity of scriptures don't pan out as expected? There are numerous discrepancies and contradictions found throughout the Bible and not just due to mistranslations, although they do serve a part in some of these cases. Also, Bart Ehrman is a well known historian in early Christianity and also comes from a solid evangelical background previously. His writings appear to be well documented with proofs to back up his findings, which I take into consideration. Also, one thing that still amazes me is how scant the information is among secular Roman historians regarding Jesus of Nazareth during the first century. For somebody who changed the world by his teaching, it would seem there would be a lot more left on record than actually exists today? However, by the 4th century, more details emerge as the RCC is established as the first church of Rome.
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 7, 2014 14:23:16 GMT -5
There is only one thing that makes me question the bible, and shakes my faith. Why does God allow people to be born gay, but expect them to change their sexual orientation to be right in His eyes? Now for anyone out there that is about to TRY to convince me that they CHOOSE to be gay.....save it! I know otherwise. I have a family member that is gay, and has known it since 11 years old. Others that I have spoken with have known since very young as well, one guy since he was 8. People don't just decide to be gay, it is their natural attraction. Why would God (as we know Him in the bible) expect them to go against what is their natural attraction? That is like asking a straight person to ignore their attraction to the opposite sex and just try to be gay. I have so much trouble processing this, anyone else have this stumbling block? You may find that it all makes much more sense if you stop assuming that God has anything to do with a person’s sexuality whether it’s creating it, changing it, allowing it or frowning upon it. God really doesn’t give a hoot about a person’s sexuality. It’s only those who believe in the bible over God who seem to be peculiarly obsessed with what other people get up to in the bedroom. Why should anyone care if your next door neighbour is fornicating with the milkman in an unorthodox position or if your spinster aunt really is a lesbian providing they are all consenting adults and no one is getting hurt? My advice is to stop using the bible as your moral guide when it comes to matters of sexuality. The bible does not represent the views of God on such matters but rather the peculiar ancient laws and customs of the men who wrote it. Nature has decreed your family member’s sexuality just as nature has decreed the colour of his eyes, the length of his nose and the size of his ears. You’re not concerned that God might think his ears are too large and want him to downsize them are you? Of course not. So why on earth would God want him to change his sexuality? Remember just as there is a lot of good advice contained within the Bible, there is also a lot of complete nonsense. Be careful not to become enslaved by it in your thinking. Matt10 Matt10.... I am just speaking from the stance that we were taught in the 2x2 fellowship that the bible is God's final word and a guide for us to follow. Trying to make sense of how homosexuality is spoken of in the bible, heard workers speak on it too! That is why I said it shakes my faith! There is so much that is contradictory in the bible and stuff that just doesn't make sense to me. That is why I am losing faith in the bible being "God's final word." Does that make more sense to you? -ph-
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 7, 2014 14:30:22 GMT -5
Only one thing shakes your faith? Seriously? The actions of the human animal alone should be enough to shake your faith. By the way, have you read the Old Testament? Well, it's a big one right now. I agree with 'peaceful heart'. We've long discounted the OT as prescriptive, and think of it containing lessons and being a foreshadowing of Christ's life. So Christ-centered thinking provides a filter on the Old Testament. (The concept of dispensation really works well in shaping this understanding). But the epistles of Paul are taken much more seriously across most of the Christian world. I think that if you don't accept Paul's word that homosexuality is inherently immoral, and I repeat that I don't, then you have to process all of the New Testament rather differently than you might have in the past. I believe that you have to take it as being much more dependent on the cultural context of that time, and not so much relevant across all cultures. And yes, it means women don't have to wear their hair long. Then the question becomes, what are the underlying principles that still might have relevance in our day? So Paul's dictates on hair don't mean that anything goes, either, but you have tease out the underlying principle. I do believe that we have to abandon the field on the meaningless, controversial points in order to have something that can still have meaning for the destitute and that will constitute sound moral guidance to the world in general. Very well put What, thank you!
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Post by peacefulheart on Jun 7, 2014 14:52:35 GMT -5
There are two immediate problems with your post. The second is "Why does God allow people to be born gay, but expect them to change their sexual orientation to be right in His eyes?" Matt10 basically said what I was thinking. To expound, assuming what one expects to be 'right' is a waste of time and brain matter, which leads to the first problem of your post: You believe a book written by people who lived around 1600 or so. There are supposedly texts written two thousand and some odd years ago relating to that religion. I challenge you to read religious history. Skip Christian history because, if you have not read it, you've probably heard some of the tales about the Catholic church breaking up, the slaughter of non-followers, etc. Read the histories of all of the other religions out there - Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, etc. One commonality is they all expect people to believe and act a certain way. A person recently told me all people are given morals when they accept god. Oh? So morality is only possessed by religious people? Some of the most immoral people I know are Christians. I know a few atheists and a few followers of unaccepted beliefs that have better morals than their bashers. The bible is a tool of force. It has worked for centuries to calm people down and make them adhere to a certain set of rules. "If you don't comply, you will go to hell." "What's hell?" "Oh, it's this nasty place we've conjured up to make sure you comply." "Bull hockey. Hell doesn't exist - you just want me to build your castle, marry your daughter, have a kajillion kids to overpopulate the earth, and not question you in all this." "You don't believe in hell? Well, you'll go to hell for not believing in it. Furthermore, if you don't do as I say and as all my laws, regulations, and rules dictate, you will go to hell. You must allow me to take away your weapons, cram religion down your throat, spy on you in whatever way I please, and know everything about you at all times or you will go to hell. You must hate everything I tell you to hate. You must believe every word I tell you, even though I say one thing one minute and another later - it is all true, right, and correct. You must believe everyone who claims to represent me." "So, the alternative to all that is going to hell. What if I decide you're right, I'm wrong, and I need to be corrected in my most error-filled life?" "Ah, yes! You have seen the light! For that, I will give you everything you have ever wanted and more . . after you die! You will live with me in the most amazing place you could ever imagine where the sun shines forever, you never run out of energy or have any need to sleep, the animals are all loving and don't eat each other for sustenance (because I give sustenance), the roads are paved with gold (the most valuable metal at the time of this writing, but obviously not anymore during your time . . . so I'll change it to platinum or whatever you want because I can change things whenever I want), and rainbows and unicorns float through the sky. But while you are on earth, I'll protect you (ahem, cough, cough). If your gov't claims me, you must obey every rule and iota it dictates. But the nice thing about me is you can choose which rules to ignore. Just because the law says the limit is 65 doesn't mean you can't go 68. That's okay. You can even go 72 as long as you are doing it for me. It's also okay to slightly bend the rule that says you must stay married to one person your entire life. That's okay because you are living your life for me. You don't even have to get married to have kids. Your gov't will supply you your needs and then some because it does it in my name and knows that is what I expect. One of my slaves, er, servants set up a nice fund for you - he called it Social In . . uh . . Security. That is my way of thanking you for following the demands of your gov't and me." If you think about it, many rulers have acted like all of the above. The New World Order theorists believe that if any person or group of people says any of that, the world is doomed and coming to an end. But they discount it when they read the same words in the bible . . because it's okay when a god says it. What's the difference? A god was fabricated by a bunch of ego-maniacal kings to enslave their people. That's a pretty handy tool! Do what you want and live how you like as long as you do it according to the demands of your gov't and your god. Then all is cool. I've heard of people stealing and getting by with it 'because the lord told me to do it'. No joke. I'd bet at least one of those preachers slammed with child sex offenses believed that his god gave him those kids because of his sacrifices. People go totally wacko under the guise of religion. Religion makes people crazy . . and hateful. But it's okay because they do it for their god. Gag! Whoa there, calm down There is no problem with my post, I am simply going through a logical thought process that you and others may have already come to a conclusion on possibly ever years ago already. By the way, I like rainbows and unicorns . On a serious note, I am interested in reading the history on other religions, as I have wondered what their beliefs are exactly. So do you believe there is no heaven or hell? Jesus? Where do you think we go when our body dies? Do you believe there is or is not punishment for evil acts? Were we created by God, or did the entire universe just fall into place so intricately as it did? -ph-
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