I wonder how many people google search the workers names and find a website detailing aspects of the fellowship? I feel like the websites are keeping outsiders from coming back. I know this trend was beginning to happen long before TTT, VOT, TMB etc.But the world wide web has accelerate the process.
The amount of outside interest might not have changed in the last 50-60 years, in general in the USA and Canada. Could be these few a year read about the friends and workers and then make their decision to go forth with their interest or not.
Some who know the friends and workers, but knew little of their beliefs and doctrine - neighbors and such - might look them up.
The information of the beginning of days and such, especially via the internet, might have greater impact on those in the way. There might be a change in conviction about basis of their belief and following, some rationalization, and what-have-you. Easy to imagine some went from "this is the right way" to "this is how we do it...because we read about such in the Bible."
Go to meeting...read and pray...enjoy fellowship...forget the rest. Everyone else: Eat, drink, and be merry...for tomorrow we die.
We knew nothing until the workers said their names were on the Internet and one of the lady workers was a little upset because her name had been missed, so we had a look and could not believe our eyes.
We knew nothing until the workers said their names were on the Internet and one of the lady workers was a little upset because her name had been missed, so we had a look and could not believe our eyes.
Unless the F&W's in the last few months have become uncommon upfront about who they are and what they are called then I don't think most invitees from outside would know what to look for on the net anymore than they knew what information to look for at the city library 30 or 50 years ago. Maybe they get a better idea of what to look up once they get a gospel meeting or two under their belts and they can start plugging words like worker and meeting and convention and friends into google or bing. What they find might give em a cause to do some thinking before they went to the 3rd or 4th gospel meeting or professed but I'm not sure how many people do much searching into churches before professing or many of them would have some trouble getting new attendees and some of the very ones you'd think would have the most trouble because of what is out there about them seem to be doing much better than the workers at both keeping their members and attracting more. The no name and no organization and no buildings and no doctrine and etc lies aren't working anymore and maybe people have seen enough of those exposed in other religious and nonreligious groups that they don't swallow those things so easily these days.
Unless the F&W's in the last few months have become uncommon upfront about who they are and what they are called then I don't think most invitees from outside would know what to look for on the net anymore than they knew what information to look for at the city library 30 or 50 years ago.
I don't think this is quite true. 30 years ago what reference material could you use to even start a look-up?
Looking down the list of the references in the wiki Two by Twos article there are quite a few prior to 1984 and some going back before the 1940's. Some of those would have been in local libraries at least and the Heresies Exposed book is still in many. Some of the others would have been in most univ. libraries. The problem of having a name or good terms to look up is the same now as it was then and once you find something in one book - or site today - then you find other things to begin searching for.
Last Edit: Apr 24, 2014 17:17:34 GMT -5 by blandie
Looking down the list of the references in the wiki Two by Twos article there are quite a few prior to 1984 and some going back before the 1940's. Some of those would have been in local libraries at least and the Heresies Exposed book is still in many. Some of the others would have been in most univ. libraries. The problem of having a name or good terms to look up is the same now as it was then and once you find something in one book - or site today - then you find other things to begin searching for.
The question was - "How would you walk into a library and look them up?" There was no Wikipedia and I doubt it would be found in Encyclopedia Britannica or Funk & Wagnalls. The card catalog probably would not be much help. When the subject is relatively unknown finding references would have been difficult.
The internet allows one to search across multiple sources in seconds and refine the search as required. Locating a reference in a single book would be much more tedious than searching millions sites/references. I am not saying it could not be done but having the book in a library and being able to locate it are two very different things.
Last Edit: Apr 24, 2014 23:32:49 GMT -5 by rational
Yes more tedious but it wasn't as difficult as you seem to think. I speak from experience trying to find out if anything had been written back then and without an acknowledged or unacknowledged name or history I passed right over references in the library and that also happens with the net Wikipedia or not. Had I had the slightest inkling to look for Cooneyites or Two by Twos I could have easily found them in Profiles in Belief or the Secret Sect or Cults and Isms or Small Sects of America or Schaff-Herzog's Religion Encyclopedia or Heresies Exposed at the library - just the same way as it wasn't rocket science to look up just about anything in the reference stacks back in those days. Card catalogs only got you to the right section and maybe folks these days have forgotten how to use indexes and footnotes to do research but it worked fine if slower than a net search. Finding a group that denies just about everything written about themselves in the mountain of nameless groups that misrepresent themselves is still daunting to most people and especially to people coming to their first gospel meetings.
Looking down the list of the references in the wiki Two by Twos article there are quite a few prior to 1984 and some going back before the 1940's. Some of those would have been in local libraries at least and the Heresies Exposed book is still in many. Some of the others would have been in most univ. libraries. The problem of having a name or good terms to look up is the same now as it was then and once you find something in one book - or site today - then you find other things to begin searching for.
If a person gets as far as a gospel meeting, they only have to key in the title of the hymnbook they are given and for my Google search of "hymns old and new", 3 of the top 4 results were relevant. Searching "hymns old and new workers" hits the main 2x2 sites. You're right though, someone has to pick up some of the lingo for successful search terms. In a lot of cases, the name of the senior of the two workers could successfully get them to the 2x2 sites as there are lots of worker names on the TTT site. Something like "Joe Blow worker" or "Joe Blow gospel meetings" have a good chance of being successful.
Slightly off topic, but I wonder how many exes are still unaware of the huge amount of material on 2x2ism exists on the internet. We still occasionally encounter an ex or an innie who are shocked to discover all the information available.
Sigh...I wished we could have these discussions without OTHER groups being brought into the equation. Sure there are plenty of other groups but most of us have no connection with other groups. I do enjoy reading from ex-Mormons and ex JWs because of similar issues being discussed on their ex message boards.
Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 25, 2014 15:57:27 GMT -5
In the days before education was widespread and most people could read and write, the clergy and the rich were the only ones to be able to read. It seems that in some society's that the church and aristocracy of the time liked it that way. Keeping the peasant's illiterate meant that the only ones to be able to read the bible and dispense wisdom from it were the clergy. With the ability to read becoming widespread people became inquisitive. They sought out knowledge. They applied what they learnt to their own lives and wondered why other lives did not line up with what was coming out of their mouths. The internet could be a blessing or a curse. Use it to seek the truth and knowledge. Pray for wisdom to apply this knowledge to ones own life. I guess that some in the 2x2's think that what is published about CSA and other crimes is a curse. They would rather not have the light on them and think there is much more deserving causes such as "Gay bondage stamps". I'm of the opinion that what is brought to light is done so for a reason.
Sigh...I wished we could have these discussions without OTHER groups being brought into the equation. Sure there are plenty of other groups but most of us have no connection with other groups.
Looking outside of the little box you live in is not always a bad thing. Many people feel that expanding one's knowledge of other humans and what they believe is a good thing.
I guess that some in the 2x2's think that what is published about CSA and other crimes is a curse ^^^^^^^ They started voicing concern about the hate mail from the enemies of Truth. And the Secret Sect book. And then the internet made the info more readily available.
ENLIGHTENED GENERATION,NOT ALL FOR GOOD,BUT QUICKLY THEOLOGY CAN BE COMPARED,CHALLENGED,DISCECTED ,DEBATED,STUDIED,ARGUED,ETC. THE 2x2 UNBIBLICAL CELIBATE,PREACHER ONLY,JUDGEMENTAL,ILLUSIVE,SECRETATIVE,EXCLUSIVE, DOCTORINE,WITH A TAINTED, WORSE THAN MANY, SEXUAL CRIME RATES PER CAPITA,SHOWING UP,AND DENIED OR HIDDEN? HOW ANYONE WOULD WANT TO EVEN CONTEMPLATE LISTENING SUCH A LOVELESS COMPASSIONLESS SHRINKING DECEPTIVE LOT THAT EVEN STILL PREACH THEY ARE NAMELESS? EXCUSE CAPITALS I (NEARLY BLIND) COP FLACK FROM A LOT OF SELFRIGHTOUS 2x2s WHO SAY THEY REFUSE TO READ CAPITALS? I STRUGGLE AND READ THEIR NON CAPITALS WITHOUT ANY UNGODLY GRIZZLES. FOLK ARE MORE LIKELY TO FIND GOD AND SALVATION OUTSIDE THE IRVINITE SECT,OR THEY SOON LEARN WORKER LEGALISTIC JUDGEMENT IS COLD AND BITTER.
Magpie, you are the first person I have blocked on this board. Ever. I had to figure out how to do it.
Yes - Hide this member's posts. Yes - Do not let this member start new conversations with me. Yes - Do not let this member follow me or my activities. Yes - Block notifications from this member.
Magpie, you are the first person I have blocked on this board. Ever. I had to figure out how to do it.
Yes - Hide this member's posts. Yes - Do not let this member start new conversations with me. Yes - Do not let this member follow me or my activities. Yes - Block notifications from this member.
Why, Bert?
"You should live your life so that when you lose your job, they all don't dance in the street." (XNA, 7 November 2020)
Magpie, thanks for taking time and effort to post here. Understanding your plight of poor eyesight, you are more than welcome to print in capitals or whatever works. I think practically everyone here can appreciate that. Don't be intimidated if anyone tries to shut you down over that. Alvin
Here's a suggestion; Do your writing on word, or any other program. You can then enlarge the font and see it much easier while you write. After you're all through, simply cut & paste it to the reply box.
Just a suggestion that will make it much easier for you to see what you are writing.
On this thread (and thankfully we appreciate freedom of speech!) I have been thinking that:
- in the 1980's and up to around mid 1990's when the internet became available there didn't seem to be many people coming to gospel meetings. I would say in that period, that less than 20 people in Sydney who were "outsiders" professed in gospel meetings. I am struggling to think of anyone who is continuing from that group now - most stopped going to meetings within 5 years.
- the Secret Sect was fairly widely available after early 1980's but I guess you would have to go to a library to know about it. The Secret Sect had more impact on folk inside the group.
It leads me to conclude that the internet has not had a major impact in keeping outsiders away from gospel meetings as in many established countries they weren't coming anyway. Do others think this is correct?
In my view the internet (as with The Secret Sect) has had a massive impact on those within the group and has resulted in many existing members leaving and possibly young people not professing in the first place. I think the internet continues to have a major impact in this regard.
Having said all of that, where one or two outsiders are interested in meetings, if they looked on the internet they would quickly work out what the meetings are all about.
That's the way I see it too Ross. I don't see the internet stopping too many people from initially attending. It may have stopped a few but in most cases, the invitees come solely because they trust one of the friends. From what I have seen, two or three gospel meetings is about max for the average attendee and I would suggest that even then, it is their personal experience at the gospel meetings that causes them to stop. Perhaps the conservative dress of older professing women or the sister workers, perhaps a feeling that the preaching that is not relevant to them. I think it would normally only be those who are giving it some serious consideration who would look it up on the internet, then disappear. We had one recently, a semi-professional person, who seemed pretty interested and had a fair number of meetings, then suddenly quit. That pattern seemed like the internet to me. I will have to ask the friend who brought her what his explanation is.
For myself, if I was invited to an organized meeting of this sort that was not publicly well known, I would probably not go the first time without a considerable amount of information, particularly from their web site. There are plenty of hustles and scams out there which have ways of revealing themselves on their own web sites. In the case of the meetings, with no web site and only anti web sites out there, the only way I might attend would be out of a morbid curiosity to see what's going on, but I wouldn't be there for the intended purpose of finding God.
What I am surprised with is that no regional Head Worker has bothered to establish an internet site to counter the negatives and put forward the Gospel as they see it. It is simply another communication channel but has rarely been used, except for a couple of workers posting meeting invites on it.
As strange as it may seem to most of us that there is no web site, I'm not surprised about it when looking from their perspective.
One thing that was established long ago was that they would not use anything but oral personal means to communicate their gospel message, and they first reached that conclusion over the issue of radio preaching back in the Jack Carroll days. The other thing is that "we are not an organization" and having a web site would be considered organizational to the workers.
One partial exception today is the increasingly popular use of the telephone conventions/meetings. That is now being considered valid and helpful for the friends. However, outsiders do not get electronic methods to hear the workers' message. I think they all still agree that there is no valid convert who has not personally heard the workers preach in a meeting. It is believed that that is the only way the Spirit can be conveyed.
charlesfoxtrot: The FBI is seeking victim voices of the 2x2s. Report at: www.fbi.gov/2x2
Feb 21, 2024 13:27:31 GMT -5
Deleted: I saw yesterday that a letter sent to members of a church was actually copied, and distributed all over the world. I think it was Paul's letter to the Corinthians.
Jan 23, 2024 14:50:44 GMT -5
chap5act38: I never would put letters of preachers sent to members of any church at a website. How would you like it, when i put a letter of your husband to you in public? Well, not very decent. In ALL churches there are some not good. Ok, let it, and live for God.
Nov 16, 2023 12:40:00 GMT -5
chap5act38: there are about 1000 sort of churches. If we make of all wrong churches a website like this. We don't have time to look for where God wants us to be at Sunday. I never would make of any wrong church a website, you keep on 'hanging' in what hurted.
Nov 16, 2023 12:37:53 GMT -5
chap5act38: Every wrong Group I was in, God showed it to me. No woman or man had to do that. I saw it and went away.
Nov 15, 2023 17:06:27 GMT -5
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chap5act38: God is Almighty, leave it to Him, He can open eyes.. He doesn’t need you 4 that.
Nov 15, 2023 17:05:02 GMT -5
chap5act38: I prefer to put time in looking 4 a good Group. Life is short. Why time many years for this? You look obsessed... People after all do what they want. So …
Nov 15, 2023 17:00:15 GMT -5
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chap5act38: Get a life miss Kropp…
Nov 15, 2023 16:58:38 GMT -5
chap5act38: Poor miss Kropp. All money + time y put in this. Can’t believe it. But you must be obsessed totally. Go and look 4 another church. Give them time etc
Nov 15, 2023 16:57:57 GMT -5
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chap5act38: what If you fight against God…. If it is not good, once y see. I was in wrong Groups, glad to be away when I discovered it was wrong.. If I would make a Website of all wrong groups it hurts only.. and there are many many wrong groups..
Nov 15, 2023 16:56:50 GMT -5
chap5act38: why put time etc in this church? When you don’t want it, look 4 another one. If you write about all wrong churches you never will have a life and time for work etc.
Nov 15, 2023 16:51:03 GMT -5
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chap5act38: Well, when y do not like this church, surch further! I don’t understand a person that is giving so much time to this. Look for a church y think is ok. I was long ago in wrong groups, but God showed me that! Don’t need y. to see it.
Nov 15, 2023 16:49:36 GMT -5
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countryroads: There seem to be various versions of the rumor about Frandle floating around. The latest is that he went to a couple of conventions in the western part of the U.S. and was denied entry. These unconfirmed stories are perhaps actively harmful in that, if unt
Aug 10, 2023 9:27:03 GMT -5
Deleted: Ah your opinion he is Greek, good to know...
Jul 30, 2023 15:55:33 GMT -5
BobWilliston: That's what I said -- he was Greek. The great Saint Augustine explained how he injected Paul's christian thought into "Christianity". Remember, Paul wrote that he was only interested in "Jesus the christ", not Jesus the man or Jesus the messiah.
Jul 29, 2023 20:57:29 GMT -5
Deleted: Paul was greek? Where does it say that?
Jul 16, 2023 8:29:47 GMT -5
BobWilliston: Yes, being a Greek Jew, he was referring to the style of a Greek "christ", as opposed to a Jewish "messiah". The Jews never look(ed) for a "christ" -- they only expected a "messiah". The foundation of Christianity through Augustine.
Jul 15, 2023 23:34:56 GMT -5
darrell: In the 2nd chapter of 1st corinthians Paul said when i first came unto you i determined not to know anything among you but Jesus Christ and him crucified.Nothing complicated.Not a list of rules.But the vital piece of doctrine that is before any behaviour.
Jun 17, 2023 12:48:17 GMT -5
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