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Post by arwen89 on Apr 16, 2014 19:21:32 GMT -5
Hmmmm! I always thought The Duggars reminded me of professing people... "It seems the world they come from—the tiny but growing world of strict Biblical patriarchy—is in real danger of collapsing. While adherents to this form of Christianity, like the Duggars, like to paint an uber-wholesome face on their families and beliefs, ugly truths are finally starting to leak out regarding the problems of infidelity and alleged sexual abuse in the community." Sound familiar?? www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/16/sex-scandal-rocks-the-duggars-christian-patriarchy-movement.html
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 19:33:40 GMT -5
Interesting how it works. I read that in any institution about 3% of its people are considered corrupt, or capable of corruption (sounds a remarkably small number IMO)
We don't like a particular instition lording over us, so we target this three percent (thereabout.)
Trouble is - the institution was put there for a reason, and the people who want it banished are often people far worse than those in that institution.
So we rail against politician's behavior, whilst our community's behavior is just as bad, if not worse. We go on about "polic corruption" but ask any policeman how bad people's behavior is these days and they might tell, from behind their bullet proof vest and backup college, you how a cop was once "armed only with a smile." And we rail against churches for CSA whilst the trade in kiddy porn is booming, little girls are parading in stilletos and fake bras and the age of consensual sex is trending down belows their teens - really fast.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 20:24:12 GMT -5
i'll bet that this goes on in every sector of humanity...
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 22:46:18 GMT -5
When I saw this video on You-tube on the Duggars with 20 kids now, I was flabbergasted at how good the mother looks after giving birth to 20 kids and now in her mid-40's. I was and especially shocked that she still had her sanity, in fact! I probably would be "crackers" if I had that many children. Actually, I had my hands full raising three children close in age, four and under, without any more arrivals. Honestly, that was my baby cut-off point, as I figured I had enough kids to juggle without any more.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=AW3Uu6miCVc
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Post by arwen89 on Apr 16, 2014 22:48:20 GMT -5
The problem is when the church masquerades as "perfect."
I don't know much about the church the Duggars attend, but if it's anything like "the truth," (I imagine it is) They have an elitist view. An "Us vs. Them" mentality. A claim of seperation from the world.
Things like this just prove that, in fact, those thoughts/claims are absolutely delusional and need to stop.
☆Arwen☆
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 22:59:10 GMT -5
The problem is when the church masquerades as "perfect." I don't know much about the church the Duggars attend, but if it's anything like "the truth," (I imagine it is) They have an elitist view. An "Us vs. Them" mentality. A claim of seperation from the world. Things like this just prove that, in fact, those thoughts/claims are absolutely delusional and need to stop. ☆Arwen☆ Arwen ~ I noticed the problem was not with the Duggars, the TV family on TLC's reality show, but with the "head honcho" of the group. That just reminded me a lot of some of the same mentality we have seen in a couple overseers over the history of the 2x2's. There have been some "bad apples" in the 2x2 bunch, too, which made headlines in recent years. I guess power may go to their heads over time and they think they can do whatever they want and get away with it, due to being the "boss-man" of the group?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 16, 2014 23:15:52 GMT -5
The problem is when the church masquerades as "perfect." I don't know much about the church the Duggars attend, but if it's anything like "the truth," (I imagine it is) They have an elitist view. An "Us vs. Them" mentality. A claim of seperation from the world. Things like this just prove that, in fact, those thoughts/claims are absolutely delusional and need to stop. ☆Arwen☆ As much as we might find it convenient to point these flaws out in people in other religions, and whether or not any group is completely free of such people -- the fact remains that no religion can withstand the actions of those who would defile its reputation. IF it were not a religion, the individual alone would be taking the blame, but because it is a religion the whole community will face disapproval. And it applies to everything from petty theft to terrorism. But blaming the religious hierarchy may have some merit. How they deal with their malefactors is their responsibility, and if they take care of those problems appropriately the congregation will continue to support them, and vice versa. But no matter what the hierarchy does, it is a function of religions to disparage others' beliefs.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 23:19:12 GMT -5
Quote - "The problem is when the church masquerades as "perfect." "
That's a terrible thing to write. I don't agree with tons of churches, but I have never met one which "masquerades as "perfect." "
Some of their critics certainly do.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 17, 2014 0:21:53 GMT -5
Quote - "The problem is when the church masquerades as "perfect." "
That's a terrible thing to write. I don't agree with tons of churches, but I have never met one which "masquerades as "perfect." "
Some of their critics certainly do. Bert, if you have never met a church which "masquerades as "perfect," I tend to believe that you have met very few churches.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 1:23:45 GMT -5
I don't know of any of my friends feeling "perfect." I am attending Greek "mass" tomorrow night, I will ask if any of the them are feeling "perfect."
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Post by arwen89 on Apr 17, 2014 8:43:13 GMT -5
I don't know of any of my friends feeling "perfect." I am attending Greek "mass" tomorrow night, I will ask if any of the them are feeling "perfect." You changed "church" to "friends" I meant exactly what I said; "church." I doubt any individual believes they're perfect. But I've heard "the people aren't perfect, but the way is" about a thousand times. Which is a thousand times to many. Gag. ☆Arwen☆
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 8:48:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I suppose it's true, all ways lead to God.
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 11:37:34 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 12:01:45 GMT -5
Also, while checking out Doug Phillips, the leader of the Christian patriarchy group, I found this article relating to his encounters with their nanny over 5 years. Although the leader tries to paint a picture of only an emotional affair without any hanky panky when Phillips' wife wasn't around, this article describes something far different. Obviously, the nanny didn't agree with his assessment either? Also, I noticed the head honcho, Doug Phillips, is trying to turn it all around to make it look like the nanny was the "aggressor" and he was the innocent participant.
Honestly, somehow this story reminds me of Adam in the Garden of Eden blaming Eve for making him bite into the apple, while they both were standing together by that tree of Good and Evil. Some things just never change over time, huh?
www.christianpost.com/news/woman-files-lawsuit-accusing-vision-forum-founder-doug-phillips-of-treating-her-as-personal-sex-object-118005/
Vision Forum Founder Doug Phillips Accused By Woman of Treating Her Like 'Personal Sex Object' in Lawsuit
HEADLINES WHICH FOLLOWED THIS STORY:
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 12:53:39 GMT -5
The problem is when the church masquerades as "perfect." I don't know much about the church the Duggars attend, but if it's anything like "the truth," (I imagine it is) They have an elitist view. An "Us vs. Them" mentality. A claim of seperation from the world. Things like this just prove that, in fact, those thoughts/claims are absolutely delusional and need to stop. ☆Arwen☆ It does seem as if a lot of their beliefs are shared by the friends and workers group...their outward appearances do look pretty similar, and they have a home church. However, I was pretty surprised when I watched their show how different it is. Even their physical appearances are pretty different when you look closely...they wear their hair down a lot, style it (they give each other perms), they wear makeup and jewelry. All of which are or have been considered no-no's by the F&W's....more vehemently in certain parts of the world than others I'm sure. They also seem to have open minds about where they worship...for example, when they were away from their home for several months after Josie's birth, they worshipped in a Christian church...I want to say it was a Baptist church but I can't remember. I believe their oldest son also got married in a church. Those are things that are also relatively taboo for F&W's. They also believe some pretty "out-there" things, like faune pointed out, that the F&W's church never has...thankfully. Overall, they are a pretty legalistic group though, which is similar to the F&W's in some ways. Not to speak for arwen, but I believe what she was getting at is that we have all heard members of the F&W's church (whether "friend" or worker) point out how they are the only right church, their ministers are the only ones with the Spirit and the only true ministers of God, etc...not that they claim to be perfect human beings, but they do claim to have something that no one else has, and more importantly CAN'T have unless they believe what they do and join their group. Therefore, it makes it a little harder for some of us to accept when one of them is a CSA offender, rather than someone who isn't claiming to be a part of the one and only true church or one of the only true ministers of God. By their claims, they (the workers) have the Holy Spirit and none of these other men committing these acts do...
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Post by snow on Apr 17, 2014 13:32:12 GMT -5
The 'quiverful' mentality is taking off in many young fundamentalist families these days. My nieces and nephews from my one sister are quiverful families. I am rapidly becoming a great aunt over and over. 4 all under the age of 7 in one family. 3 all under the age of 5. The last 2 girls got married a year ago and one has delivered and the other will be soon. They all toured and were musicians with a Christian Band and the band leaders are a couple that have just had their 10th child. Their oldest just got married and all the kids play and sing in the Band. They also all home school, don't believe in evolution and believe the end is soon.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 17, 2014 17:19:53 GMT -5
I first became aware of this family back in the "17 Kids and Counting" days, and I was instantly fascinated. Mostly, I think, for their similarities to stuff in 2X2ism (or at least the 2X2ism of the past). I watched the first half dozen episodes or so until (I thought) they were some sort of flavor of Baptist, and then they kind of disappeared off my radar screen.
Fast forward to a few weeks ago until I was painting my pantry, so turned on the TV while I was doing it - and caught a couple of the 19 Kids and Counting episodes. What struck me this time was how many times Michelle used the "thankful" word.
In my opinion, this word has the power to transform lives - and it is what gives this family their particular charm.
This might be part of some sort of "patriarchy" orientation. But, instinctively, I still think Michelle wears the pants (obviously figuratively) in that family. (And I do think that women repressing women is the backbone of any patriarchal society. When women smarten up, these kinds of abuses will disappear.)
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 17:41:09 GMT -5
The 'quiverful' mentality is taking off in many young fundamentalist families these days. My nieces and nephews from my one sister are quiverful families. I am rapidly becoming a great aunt over and over. 4 all under the age of 7 in one family. 3 all under the age of 5. The last 2 girls got married a year ago and one has delivered and the other will be soon. They all toured and were musicians with a Christian Band and the band leaders are a couple that have just had their 10th child. Their oldest just got married and all the kids play and sing in the Band. They also all home school, don't believe in evolution and believe the end is soon. Snow ~ I'm shocked that some people embrace this mentality today. I wonder when the mother ever gets a break when she's either giving birth or getting pregnant all over again? Perhaps during that 40 day waiting period for a boy and 80 day waiting period for a girl where she is considered ritually unclean and off limits to her husband? However, how does a woman homeschool 20 kids, like in the Duggar family? Don't the older ones attend a public school, or does she homeschool for all 12 grades? I would be getting pretty sick of my kids if I had them around all the time and never got a break in which they went back to school after the summer and Xmas & spring breaks. These women have to be real "gluttons for punishment" to buy into this lifestyle in the first place? JMT
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 17:45:34 GMT -5
I first became aware of this family back in the "17 Kids and Counting" days, and I was instantly fascinated. Mostly, I think, for their similarities to stuff in 2X2ism (or at least the 2X2ism of the past). I watched the first half dozen episodes or so until (I thought) they were some sort of flavor of Baptist, and then they kind of disappeared off my radar screen. Fast forward to a few weeks ago until I was painting my pantry, so turned on the TV while I was doing it - and caught a couple of the 19 Kids and Counting episodes. What struck me this time was how many times Michelle used the "thankful" word. In my opinion, this word has the power to transform lives - and it is what gives this family their particular charm. This might be part of some sort of "patriarchy" orientation. But, instinctively, I still think Michelle wears the pants (obviously figuratively) in that family. (And I do think that women repressing women is the backbone of any patriarchal society. When women smarten up, these kinds of abuses will disappear.) Sharon ~ It appears that Michelle and her husband, Jim Bob, now have 20 children and are probably working now on #21?
By jolly, all the more power to them! They both deserve one other, because they are living out one "nutty dream!" Can you just imagine feeding that gang of kids throughout the day, especially if you homeschool on top of it. I would be a basket case and ready to be committed under such circumstances myself. Michelle must have true grit and be very organized to handle such a clan of kids?
The leader of the group, Doug Phillips has only eight (8) kids. I guess he was too busy with his "nanny" on the side and was neglecting his wife's need for attention and more kids to fill their household?
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 18:00:19 GMT -5
Beth shared earlier...
I agree that when the workers claim to be God's only anointed servants capable of bringing the gospel message to the world, you would normally expect their moral behavior to coincide with their daily lifestyle? However, it seems that when overseers or senior workers get singled out for CSA, than the F&W's go into "protection mode" for the "one and only perfect way" to God and Heaven. I tend to agree with what Bob said earlier about the Truth fellowship taking the hit for the sins of their leaders, since they hold these workers up as being next to God Himself in their esteem. Therefore, when these same workers mess up badly, such as in CSA, than the whole group takes the hit in the disapproval department for that worker's immoral behavior. All the more reason to swiftly remove such "wolves in sheep's clothing" from their midst, since they do reflect upon the group as a whole in a big way!
Bob shared earlier...
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 17, 2014 18:17:57 GMT -5
i'll bet that this goes on in every sector of humanity... Yes, and repeats its self every few generation....seems people never learn from their antecedents....so they've got to go through the muck again!
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 18:22:46 GMT -5
i'll bet that this goes on in every sector of humanity... Yes, and repeats its self every few generation....seems people never learn from their antecedents....so they've got to go through the muck again! I agree, especially in the area of most religions where people generally put on a front for others to see, but have their share of skeletons hidden within their personal closets and kept secret from the public eye.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 17, 2014 18:30:01 GMT -5
The problem is when the church masquerades as "perfect." I don't know much about the church the Duggars attend, but if it's anything like "the truth," (I imagine it is) They have an elitist view. An "Us vs. Them" mentality. A claim of seperation from the world. Things like this just prove that, in fact, those thoughts/claims are absolutely delusional and need to stop. ☆Arwen☆ As much as we might find it convenient to point these flaws out in people in other religions, and whether or not any group is completely free of such people -- the fact remains that no religion can withstand the actions of those who would defile its reputation. IF it were not a religion, the individual alone would be taking the blame, but because it is a religion the whole community will face disapproval. And it applies to everything from petty theft to terrorism. But blaming the religious hierarchy may have some merit. How they deal with their malefactors is their responsibility, and if they take care of those problems appropriately the congregation will continue to support them, and vice versa. But no matter what the hierarchy does, it is a function of religions to disparage others' beliefs. I feel that this is true in most cases. For example in a large church in this city, there was a very young man who worked as "youth pastor" for the church...as time went on he took on more and more responsibilities. So the preaching pastor decided to tell the finance committee to give the youth pastor a raise...well what they gave him was peanuts to dollars. Which the youth pastor wasn't interested in his monetary reimbursement of his execution of duties because his wife was the chief CEO of a major shipping company in town and her salary would keep his family and any other family ten times over! Anyway at the new deacon/elder's meeting where the outgoing deacons and elders and the incoming deacon and elders met, some mouthy young lady got up and made a big deal out of the youth's pastor's "raise" and that other 'staff" memebers had not been given a raise either, etc The preaching pastor stood right there and let the church split right before his eyes...all he should have done was told people to wait one darn minute that it was his idea and that it was not a monumental raise but just a token of appreciation. The youth pastor was setting to my left but in another row of chairs in which I could easily see his face....he was hurt beyond measure! Well, the church split and they church lost many of the moneyed people in that split and also took the organist with it...along with about 10 people of the choir and left the choir with less then 10 members.....Some of those who split think the preaching pastor did this in order to "get rid" of the youth pastor....otherwords, there'd been another split back in the 90's of similar issues.....so I kindly left the church myself...I will go back whenever the preaching minister is changed!
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 17, 2014 19:00:43 GMT -5
Quote - "The problem is when the church masquerades as "perfect." "
That's a terrible thing to write. I don't agree with tons of churches, but I have never met one which "masquerades as "perfect." "
Some of their critics certainly do. They all masquerade as perfect UNTIL THEY ADMIT THEIR ERRORS.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 17, 2014 19:02:48 GMT -5
I don't know of any of my friends feeling "perfect." I am attending Greek "mass" tomorrow night, I will ask if any of the them are feeling "perfect." Your friends are not the "church" You should ask the priest if there is anything wrong with his church and see what he says. Unless he tells you something is wrong with it, he is saying that it is perfect.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 17, 2014 19:04:08 GMT -5
Yeah, I suppose it's true, all ways lead to God. But you don't believe that.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 17, 2014 19:07:45 GMT -5
I first became aware of this family back in the "17 Kids and Counting" days, and I was instantly fascinated. Mostly, I think, for their similarities to stuff in 2X2ism (or at least the 2X2ism of the past). I watched the first half dozen episodes or so until (I thought) they were some sort of flavor of Baptist, and then they kind of disappeared off my radar screen. Fast forward to a few weeks ago until I was painting my pantry, so turned on the TV while I was doing it - and caught a couple of the 19 Kids and Counting episodes. What struck me this time was how many times Michelle used the "thankful" word. In my opinion, this word has the power to transform lives - and it is what gives this family their particular charm. This might be part of some sort of "patriarchy" orientation. But, instinctively, I still think Michelle wears the pants (obviously figuratively) in that family. (And I do think that women repressing women is the backbone of any patriarchal society. When women smarten up, these kinds of abuses will disappear.) In that same vein -- abusive cults normally have more female members than male members. There is logic in that, really.
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Post by gecko45 on Apr 17, 2014 23:18:11 GMT -5
I have never heard anyone Friend or Worker speak of or suggest anything along the lines of the "full quiver" fundamentalists.
However......Have known some families well above the average size. A family in Wisconsin that passed the 14 child mark the last I heard. Not sure if the father aspires to have a "full quiver" or its simply a product of low income and low education.
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